How would you improve DB going forward?

[Matches Malone]

That's what I mean with stifling creativity, that some cannot even imagine a story line that doesn't involve a stronger, fiercer opponent.

Because that's how DB functioned since 1984. What would you do with the cast that could keep tensions high and be interesting, without people constantly thinking about how things would've been over in a split second if Goku or Vegeta were there ?

[Michsi]

That's what I mean with stifling creativity, that some cannot even imagine a story line that doesn't involve a stronger, fiercer opponent.

Because that's how DB functioned since 1984. What would you do with the cast that could keep tensions high and be interesting, without people constantly thinking about how things would've been over in a split second if Goku or Vegeta were there ?

Simple, by having them not able to be there. From the top of my head, just trick them into leaving and then just come up with a scenario that keeps them from returning.
Instead of "we have to hold on until Goku arrives" to "oh shit, we really are on our own." It's basically the Android scenario, except without them dying.

[Alruneia]

Simple, by having them not able to be there. From the top of my head, just trick them into leaving and then just come up with a scenario that keeps them from returning.
Instead of "we have to hold on until Goku arrives" to "oh shit, we really are on our own." It's basically the Android scenario, except without them dying.

To add to this: This has never been easier, since there are 12 universes now. All you have to do is send Goku and Vegeta to train in another universe, be it with the Pride Troopers or with the Universe 6 saiyans or whatever else, and they'll be completely unavailable. They'll probably not even have any idea that a conflict is happening at all.

[ABED]

Simple, by having them not able to be there. From the top of my head, just trick them into leaving and then just come up with a scenario that keeps them from returning.
Instead of "we have to hold on until Goku arrives" to "oh shit, we really are on our own." It's basically the Android scenario, except without them dying.

To add to this: This has never been easier, since there are 12 universes now. All you have to do is send Goku and Vegeta to train in another universe, be it with the Pride Troopers or with the Universe 6 saiyans or whatever else, and they'll be completely unavailable. They'll probably not even have any idea that a conflict is happening at all.

Then the question is, why aren't we following THEIR story?

While fighting a stronger fiercer opponent does feel cliched at this point, it's important that this series is about Goku's goal to get stronger

This one comes down to personal preference, I have had my fill of Goku and Vegeta. This was interesting when Vegeta was the uneasy ally and it was exciting when he became a true ally. Now, the rivalry has turned boring imo. It's just...there.

And you haven't had your fill of the other characters? If they haven't been the lead, they are still fixtures of the series.

[Michsi]

Simple, by having them not able to be there. From the top of my head, just trick them into leaving and then just come up with a scenario that keeps them from returning.
Instead of "we have to hold on until Goku arrives" to "oh shit, we really are on our own." It's basically the Android scenario, except without them dying.

To add to this: This has never been easier, since there are 12 universes now. All you have to do is send Goku and Vegeta to train in another universe, be it with the Pride Troopers or with the Universe 6 saiyans or whatever else, and they'll be completely unavailable. They'll probably not even have any idea that a conflict is happening at all.

Then the question is, why aren't we following THEIR story?

While fighting a stronger fiercer opponent does feel cliched at this point, it's important that this series is about Goku's goal to get stronger

This is indeed the established theme of the franchise, but the story is old enough, long enough, with a popular enough supporting cast to at least take side-stories or such things into consideration.

Not to mention that it did make an attempt before to set Goku aside in favor of Gohan with arguably mixed results so this idea that it's Goku's story to get stronger isn't necessarily set in stone.

Again, I'm not in favor of taking Goku away as the leas, he is my favorite character, just that it is doable.

And you haven't had your fill of the other characters? If they haven't been the lead, they are still fixtures of the series.

The other characters aren't as present, but to give an example, I am someone that is really fond of the relationship between Piccolo and Gohan and I have grown tired of this as well.

[ABED]

Not to mention that it did make an attempt before to set Goku aside in favor of Gohan with arguably mixed results so this idea that it's Goku's story to get stronger isn't necessarily set in stone.

I would argue that it's precisely those mixed results that prove it is Goku's story. Taking him from lead position was a mistake in execution because it was a poor idea. Certainly an author CAN change main characters, but it's not advisable.

And a number of people here keep changing the issue. I'm not talking about side stories. I'm talking to the people saying Goku shouldn't be the lead anymore.

[MasenkoHA]

I mean, I get if people think the story of Goku has grown stale and has nowhere to go.

Almost as if a decade long series had no reason to be brought back or to keep going or something.

[JulieYBM]

I want to see Tomioka given more reign to write original plots as he likes. I also want to see episode directors given more tine so they can toy around with their boards.

I'd also clarify that the appearance of Beers takes place six months after Majin Buu and then just go from there, ignoring the small details of the comic's ending and letting events happen sooner.

[Michsi]

Not to mention that it did make an attempt before to set Goku aside in favor of Gohan with arguably mixed results so this idea that it's Goku's story to get stronger isn't necessarily set in stone.

I would argue that it's precisely those mixed results that prove it is Goku's story. Taking him from lead position was a mistake in execution because it was a poor idea. Certainly an author CAN change main characters, but it's not advisable.

And a number of people here keep changing the issue. I'm not talking about side stories. I'm talking to the people saying Goku shouldn't be the lead anymore.

We could interpret it as a cautionary tale of what happens when Goku's out of the picture, however, GT was more Goku focused than the franchise had been in a long time and it also did poorly. I think Gohan's turn as a MC would've been way better received had it not started as a slice of life comedy featuring mostly new characters. Same could be said about GT, with Pan and Trunks being way less fun than, say, Bulma and Oolong for example.

Side-stories isn't actually what I meant, more like breaks in Goku's story. In the idea of how you could improve DB as a whole, giving the side characters more importance is one possible way to do it.

[ABED]

Not to mention that it did make an attempt before to set Goku aside in favor of Gohan with arguably mixed results so this idea that it's Goku's story to get stronger isn't necessarily set in stone.

I would argue that it's precisely those mixed results that prove it is Goku's story. Taking him from lead position was a mistake in execution because it was a poor idea. Certainly an author CAN change main characters, but it's not advisable.

And a number of people here keep changing the issue. I'm not talking about side stories. I'm talking to the people saying Goku shouldn't be the lead anymore.

We could interpret it as a cautionary tale of what happens when Goku's out of the picture, however, GT was more Goku focused than the franchise had been in a long time and it also did poorly. I think Gohan's turn as a MC would've been way better received had it not started as a slice of life comedy featuring mostly new characters. Same could be said about GT, with Pan and Trunks being way less fun than, say, Bulma and Oolong for example.

Side-stories isn't actually what I meant, more like breaks in Goku's story. In the idea of how you could improve DB as a whole, giving the side characters more importance is one possible way to do it.

GT's fundamental problems weren't the focus on Goku. The first third of the manga was also focused almost all on Goku and many here consider it the best part.

Gohan as the main character fizzled because if he's the main character, the DNA of the series changes. It was always a story about striving to overcome ones limits and Gohan wasn't interested in that.

[MasenkoHA]

The Red Ribbon arc is probably one of the most overtly Goku centered arcs in the series (as in there’s no real secondary main like Bulma in the Shen Long arc or Kuririn in the 21st Tenkaichi arc or Tenshinhan in the 22nd etc) and it’s probably one of the best arcs in the series.

Changing Gohan to the main focus does feel like “Dragon Ball:The Next Generation” also I just don’t feel like the Cell saga is a good end to Goku’s story. “I’ve decided to stay dead because my 9-year old is way stronger than me and I want to beat up dead guys from across the universe byyyeeeeee”

[Michsi]

GT's fundamental problems weren't the focus on Goku.

There were many underlying factors to consider ,yes, but my point was that "Goku's story" isn't always a guarantee for success. I wanted to compare it with the underwhelming reception surrounding Gohan's turn as a MC, in the sense that it wasn't because of Gohan himself, but maybe due to the story he was used in and the lack of fan favorite characters.
We had Gohan show genuine interest in being stronger later in the Boo saga, but by that time it was too little too late. He had fallen a lot in the next poll.

Gohan did surpass Goku in popularity by a lot during the Cell Games and that was even before he transformed iIrc.

[ABED]

It wasn't because of Gohan, it could've happened to anyone that isn't Goku because switching main characters unless that's the conceit of the story is a mistake.

Gohan wasn't really interested in getting stronger as an end in itself. He wanted to defeat Majin Buu, that's it really.

I don't care about those polls and they are meaningless at the end of the day.

[Michsi]

It wasn't because of Gohan, it could've happened to anyone that isn't Goku because switching main characters unless that's the conceit of the story is a mistake.

Gohan wasn't really interested in getting stronger as an end in itself. He wanted to defeat Majin Buu, that's it really.

I don't care about those polls and they are meaningless at the end of the day.

It happened to Goku himself though, as I already mentioned, in GT.
Gohan was liked enough to be accepted at first, him being the one to defeat Cell was well received, but then the story switched gears and tried to be a SOL for a while and it possibly hurt Gohan's chance as an MC. Polls just show that the character had the popularity to back up the decision.

[ABED]

GT's problems weren't about Goku being the main character. It was boring derivative plots and mediocre to terrible action.

The problem with Gohan isn't that audience didn't like him. They may have asked for the change, I don't know. In that case it would be one of be careful what you wish for. Gohan as the lead results in a fundamentally different series. While Gohan defeating Cell was well recieved, with the gift of hindsight, it's not a particularly great part of the series as Gohan is not driving the story. He's not making active decisions. He's constantly being told what to do, so the story remains dramatically limp.

Polls are shit. Stories should not change because of polls which are unreliable anyway.

[Michsi]

GT's problems weren't about Goku being the main character. It was boring derivative plots and mediocre to terrible action.

The problem with Gohan isn't that audience didn't like him. They may have asked for the change, I don't know. In that case it would be one of be careful what you wish for. Gohan as the lead results in a fundamentally different series. While Gohan defeating Cell was well recieved, with the gift of hindsight, it's not a particularly great part of the series as Gohan is not driving the story. He's not making active decisions. He's constantly being told what to do, so the story remains dramatically limp.

Polls are shit. Stories should not change because of polls which are unreliable anyway.

And similar arguments can be made for the Saiyaman arc. A lot of people found that boring and sometimes down right cringe. The switch from intense, earth-shattering battles to the gag-focused, fish-out-of- water story that was the Saiyaman arc was obviously not well received back in the day, but once it goes back to action, even with Gohan in the lead, it was back to usual. Once the Boo plot started it was all action packed and Gohan did well until he was unceremoniously set aside- but again, by that point he had lost a good deal of his appeal with the audience of that time.

I'm not going to argue for polls, I'm not keen on them either, but they help put things into perspective.

I think with the right story the change from Goku to Gohan could've gone well. For the record, I prefer Goku, too.

[ABED]

Those polls aren't helpful in the least, so I don't think they really keep things in perspective.

The switch of a main character after an extended period changes a story and never for the better. We have an emotional investment in the main character and their journey. It's their story and switching over just throws all that emotional equity, as I like to call it, out the window. Never mind stories are a reflection of their main characters. No one is better suited for that spot than Goku. Gohan's too earnest.

[Michsi]

That earnest side of Gohan was created specifically to contrast Goku and it clicked with audiences. Many would argue that it had always been intended for Goku to pass on the torch to Gohan, ever since he got introduced.

Anyway, long story short, Goku is the heart of the franchise, but anything can get old after a while, so switching up the formula could help spice things up again.

[ABED]

That earnest side of Gohan was created specifically to contrast Goku and it clicked with audiences. Many would argue that it had always been intended for Goku to pass on the torch to Gohan, ever since he got introduced.

Anyway, long story short, Goku is the heart of the franchise, but anything can get old after a while, so switching up the formula could help spice things up again.

It did, but that doesn't suggest, putting him in the main character spot is best for the story. The intention probably was to eventually pass the torch, but that's an idea that's better as an idea than it ever ends up in execution.

Yes, anything can get old after a while, but that's why you end the story. Switching out main characters is like making causing cosmetic changes to an old car instead of fixing any structural issues. Sometimes it's best to just get rid of the car and get a new one.

The right person for the lead role isn't necessarily (and often isn't) the most popular character. Even assuming Gohan was more popular, nothing in that statement suggests he or she is best suited as the central character.

Moving forward, I'd like to see less reliance on nostalgia and some forward movement in the characters and their relationships. There's still plenty to mine out of Goku and Vegeta's dynamic. Hell, Vegeta just calling Goku his friend out loud would be a huge step. Calling him "Goku" could also be interesting. I'm not sure specifically what there is to do with Goku as he's not the most dynamic character, though seeing him as a grandfather would be interesting. We saw it in GT, but here's a chance to do it even better.

[Michsi]

I told myself I wouldn't add anything anymore, but regarding this idea of not switching MC - it seems to work splendidly for the Jojo franchise.