Goku's long absences in the story

[ekrolo2]

Goku should have just arrived during the Freeza fight, yes. You lose nothing of substantive worth by removing the entire Ginyu Force section.

[MasenkoHA]

. You lose nothing of substantive worth by removing the entire Ginyu Force section.

Aside from the Ginyu Force being a lot of fun.

And showing had bad things were that Vegeta teamed up with Gohan and Kuririn

And show how much stronger Goku had gotten since his fight with Vegeta on earth.

[90sDBZ]

I have to say I love the Ginyu Force and the entire battle with them. It's funny how someone as evil as Frieza would employ a bunch of goofballs like that. And the fact that they're so strong also serves to further hype up Frieza, who is obviously much stronger than them. It further establishes that this guy really has the universe under his thumb, and it makes logical sense that Zarbon and Dodoria wouldn't be his only formidable henchmen.

Goku's fights with the Ginyu Force are really entertaining in and of themselves.

This debate reminds me of people who say the entire Super Buu portion should have been left out of the Buu saga, because it "serves no purpose". It's delivers some great fights, fun moments, and lots of tension, so that in itself is a purpose.

And I'll just echo what others have said regarding Goku supposedly not having any connection with Frieza. He's a low class Saiyan, and the last person Frieza would ever expect to be a threat, which makes it all the more satisfying to see him triumph against all odds. It just further sends home the message that you should never underestimate anyone, especially not an underdog who works hard to go beyond his label.

[ABED]

This debate reminds me of people who say the entire Super Buu portion should have been left out of the Buu saga, because it "serves no purpose". It's delivers some great fights, fun moments, and lots of tension, so that in itself is a purpose.

I agree in essence, but not with this specific example.

[MasenkoHA]

I

This debate reminds me of people who say the entire Super Buu portion should have been left out of the Buu saga, because it "serves no purpose". It's delivers some great fights, fun moments, and lots of tension, so that in itself is a purpose.

The Super Boo portion is honestly my favorite portion of the Boo saga and it would be so much worse and hallow without it. Pure Boo was honestly anticlimactic after Boohan.

And I'll just echo what others have said regarding Goku supposedly not having any connection with Frieza. He's a low class Saiyan, and the last person Frieza would ever expect to be a threat, which makes it all the more satisfying to see him triumph against all odds. It just further sends home the message that you should never underestimate anyone, especially not an underdog who works hard to go beyond his label.

Agreed 100 percent.

The fact that his own race regarded him as a write off, including his own father, and he’s the one to avenge their destruction is kind of a big deal. I never got why Vegeta should have been the one to do him in, Vegeta was an entitled douche who needed to learn humility.

[ABED]

After a protracted introduction to the Buu arc, the insanely long middle act of the arc feels like one giant drawn out exercise in wasting time until the hero arrives just in the nick of time. My first exposure to the arc was Curtis Hoffmann's manga summaries so I don't recall what my thoughts were as the story played out, but now the arc just feels like wasting time until Toriyama realizes Goku should remain the main character, not the next generation. It's only when he returns that it feels like there's a sense of progression. It's an exhausting arc from beginning to end, with the Kid Buu being one of the few bright spots.

[MasenkoHA]

I always enjoyed it *shrug* Boo wiping out the entire planet’s population sans Mr.Satan and Bee in one attack. Eating the Dragon Ball candy at Kami’s Lookout, Gotenks making up stupid attack names like Boo Boo Volleyball and Galactic Doughnut, Boo pulling a Kirby and taking the clothing of the characters he absorbs. Fighting Vegetto candy coffee ball. Fun stuff.

It did take way too long for the whole Fat Boo awakening thing.

[Lord Beerus]

Sidelining is a neutral concept. It all really comes down to execution.

The Saiyan arc stands as the golden example in Dragon Ball of how you bench a central character and build up the inevitable return of the character. Goku, unknowingly, instigates the main conflict, the cast know he can brought back life if shit hits the fan, and he guaranteed to keep his body in afterlife, which opens the possibility of growing stronger while deceased until the resurrect him and next threat arrives to Earth.

The Freeza arc is on the other side spectrum. It's handled poorly in that arc. Goku arrives on Namek and takes part in inconsequential fight against the Ginyu Force, only to get immediately benched again. And then when he returns to the plot a second time, he fights Freeza in battle that he has no previous personal stakes in beyond, "I must and defeat this evil person!"

[zekken1]

Thanks Gaffer Tape. I second your opinion, especially regarding the Cell arc. That entire arc until the end is the heroes failing to stop the bad guys at every single turn. Taken as a whole, it's all a naked attempt to delaying the ending.

Haha, no! Excuse my laughter but if Goku hadn't gone to train with Gohan they couldn't have won in that case there wouldn't have been an "ending" at least not a happy one.
And also in the Cell saga it was totally within Vegeta's character to give Cell a chance to power-up, thus that is not delaying the story. Same with Krillin him letting 18 go was also within his character. The good thing with having great characters is that you can throw a plot point they're way and then the story will just unfold by itself.

[zekken1]

Thanks Gaffer Tape. I second your opinion, especially regarding the Cell arc. That entire arc until the end is the heroes failing to stop the bad guys at every single turn. Taken as a whole, it's all a naked attempt to delaying the ending.

Haha, no! Excuse my laughter but if Goku hadn't gone to train with Gohan they couldn't have won in that case there wouldn't have been an "ending" at least not a happy one.
And also in the Cell saga it was totally within Vegeta's character to give Cell a chance to power-up, thus that is not delaying the story. Same with Krillin him letting 18 go was also within his character. The good thing with having great characters is that you can throw a plot point they're way and then the story will just unfold by itself.

[ABED]

Thanks Gaffer Tape. I second your opinion, especially regarding the Cell arc. That entire arc until the end is the heroes failing to stop the bad guys at every single turn. Taken as a whole, it's all a naked attempt to delaying the ending.

Haha, no! Excuse my laughter but if Goku hadn't gone to train with Gohan they couldn't have won in that case there wouldn't have been an "ending" at least not a happy one.
And also in the Cell saga it was totally within Vegeta's character to give Cell a chance to power-up, thus that is not delaying the story. Same with Krillin him letting 18 go was also within his character. The good thing with having great characters is that you can throw a plot point they're way and then the story will just unfold by itself.

I didn't say they weren't in character but everything the characters do is utterly meaningless until the very end. Piccolo's power up, the remote control, Kuririn's crush, Tenshinhan's near suicidal efforts, Vegeta and Trunks' power up, all twists that lead to nothing. Had the good guys stayed out of the way until the very end, the plot would've ended up in the same place.

Goku arrives on Namek and takes part in inconsequential fight against the Ginyu Force, only to get immediately benched again. And then when he returns to the plot a second time, he fights Freeza in battle that he has no previous personal stakes in beyond, "I must and defeat this evil person!"

Just so incorrect. It did have consequences. Goku gets stronger as a result and Gohan & Kuririn were forced to join forces to face them. Goku does have personal stakes against Freeza. He needs to stop him from killing his friends and son. And if that weren't enough, remember Goku isn't a superhero. He needs no greater justification for fighting Freeza than he likes fighting strong opponents. Does he need previous personal stakes for the drama to land?

[WittyUsername]

. You lose nothing of substantive worth by removing the entire Ginyu Force section.

Aside from the Ginyu Force being a lot of fun.

And showing had bad things were that Vegeta teamed up with Gohan and Kuririn

And show how much stronger Goku had gotten since his fight with Vegeta on earth.

You didn’t really need the Ginyu Force for Vegeta to team up with the good guys. They easily could’ve teamed up in response to the threat of Freeza himself.

Anyway, I would echo the sentiment that Goku being the one to have a final confrontation with Freeza was a pretty great idea. Beyond the obvious fact that he’s the main character, there is a great sense of irony in the idea that Freeza’s downfall is brought about by some random nobody who he didn’t even know existed (outside of that one scene earlier in the arc that might as well be forgotten about).

[ABED]

. You lose nothing of substantive worth by removing the entire Ginyu Force section.

Aside from the Ginyu Force being a lot of fun.

And showing had bad things were that Vegeta teamed up with Gohan and Kuririn

And show how much stronger Goku had gotten since his fight with Vegeta on earth.

You didn’t really need the Ginyu Force for Vegeta to team up with the good guys. They easily could’ve teamed up in response to the threat of Freeza himself.

The plot would have to take some big turns. Remember, Freeza finds out he needs a password so he leaves the DB's in the hands of people he trusts, giving our heroes enough time to make their own wishes. Now that I think of it, that's a good argument for their inclusion in the story.

I'm honestly a little surprised there are people here who don't like the Ginyu Force.

[WittyUsername]

Aside from the Ginyu Force being a lot of fun.

And showing had bad things were that Vegeta teamed up with Gohan and Kuririn

And show how much stronger Goku had gotten since his fight with Vegeta on earth.

You didn’t really need the Ginyu Force for Vegeta to team up with the good guys. They easily could’ve teamed up in response to the threat of Freeza himself.

The plot would have to take some big turns. Remember, Freeza finds out he needs a password so he leaves the DB's in the hands of people he trusts, giving our heroes enough time to make their own wishes. Now that I think of it, that's a good argument for their inclusion in the story.

I'm honestly a little surprised there are people here who don't like the Ginyu Force.

I actually like the Ginyu Force okay enough, but it’s hard to argue that their presence in the story doesn’t just feel like a rehash of the fight with Nappa and Vegeta. Still, their inclusion in that arc is nowhere near as bad as when Super randomly decided to include Ginyu in the RF arc.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm honestly a little surprised there are people here who don't like the Ginyu Force.

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, none of these ideas are bad: Ginyu, Goku standing down Freeza. It's only how they're presented that keep them from landing or feeling necessary/organic. It's just how, likewise, Freeza having multiple forms aren't inherently bad but contribute little. Or, to take it closer to the topic, there's nothing wrong with the idea of Goku sitting out for large parts of an arc. It's just that some arcs do it in a way that doesn't pull him out of focus, while others are structured in a way (like we agreed on in The Cell Arc) that causes those absences to feel like padding. Granted, I don't think the Ginyu in the manga sell them all that well. It's the anime's added sections of humor that make them stand out to me.

[ABED]

I'm fine with Freeza's multiple transformations, but he has too many. Getting rid of the third form would've been for the best. It seems even Toriyama thought so seeing as how he doesn't spend any real time with that. And yes, it is about execution. We didn't need Ginyu or Nappa for those stories to work, but they are better for their inclusion. Goku being sidelined twice feels like overkill. If Goku is there from the beginning, the fight would likely be shorter and that would have definitely been beneficial.

[JulieYBM]

I wonder, what if the Gi'nyuu were saved for Mecha Freeza coming to Earth? This way that little incursion can be an actual arc of it's own and give Tenshinhan, Chaozu and Yamcha a way to show off?

The wishes can then be interwoven into the battle itself. I think it's kind of boring to just up and do all the wish stuff before the battle. Make the battle a race against time to keep Freeza distracted long enough for wishes to be made, that way by the time the third wish is made the characters and audience can feel the tension in their shoulders finally relax.

1. Let Polunga revive all of the fallen friends with one wish. Let Uranai Baba take them to Namek if you really want, but personally I think this is Gohan, Vegeta, Kuririn and Dende's story. Nail being alive to fight is already enough of an interference, in my opinion.
2. Revive all of the Namekians with one wish. The one revival per wish concept is so arbitrary and serves to needlessly drag things out.
3. Teleport everyone but Freeza and his men to Earth. Now Vegeta is a potential threat to Gohan and the others!

This leaves Gokuu arriving on an empty planet with only Freeza to keep him company. From there Gokuu and Freeza can wreck the planet without worry. Gokuu and Freeza battle and the planet is eventually lost. Kaiou-sama--and thus the viewer--are unable to see whether or not either survived.

Two years later Mecha Freeza comes to Earth with the Gi'nyuu and Gohan and the others can fight them. Exhausted, they try to face Freeza after defeating the Gi'nyuu but are greeted by the Mysterious Youth before they can be killed.

[ABED]

Make the battle a race against time to keep Freeza distracted long enough for wishes to be made, that way by the time the third wish is made the characters and audience can feel the tension in their shoulders finally relax.

They more or less do that, just before Freeza arrives and when Freeza is fighting SSJ Goku.

[Cursed Lemon]

The problem is that all Goku does while he's gone is either train or do literally nothing.

Died and went to Kaio's? Train.

Waiting to arrive at Namek? Train.

Post-Ginyu battle? Sitting in a pod.

Androids? Dying.

Cell? Stand around for a while doing nothing, then go into the ROSAT and train.

And the training is never particularly interesting in and of itself. It certainly isn't ever animated well. At least in the ROSAT it was more about Gohan.

Why can't Goku be simultaneously fighting a big bad that only he can deal with, while the other characters have their own battles that make them competent? They do this in the early DBZ movies and it works just fine.

[JulieYBM]

The problem is that all Goku does while he's gone is either train or do literally nothing.

Died and went to Kaio's? Train.

Waiting to arrive at Namek? Train.

Post-Ginyu battle? Sitting in a pod.

Androids? Dying.

Cell? Stand around for a while doing nothing, then go into the ROSAT and train.

And the training is never particularly interesting in and of itself. It certainly isn't ever animated well. At least in the ROSAT it was more about Gohan.

Why can't Goku be simultaneously fighting a big bad that only he can deal with, while the other characters have their own battles that make them competent? They do this in the early DBZ movies and it works just fine.

A big issue is that the story of Dragon Ball is too focused on battle and not enough on the reason for a battle. There's nothing to really resolve and see the characters grow and change in a lot of the battles. I hate to use an example from a different series but battles served clearer purposes in, say, Naruto. Naruto's battle with Kiba endeared him to his classmates, his battle with Neji endeared him to the shinobi industry (although he was really only doing it to get Hinata's attention and restore her dignity). Other battles always saw Naruto reaching to be recognized by a 'higher power' of sorts. There needs to be a clearer, stated goal with a characters' battle. I think a big part of why #17's story resonated for fans during the Tournament of Power was because we could see how Gokuu was able to change him.