Goku's long absences in the story

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by funrush » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:59 pm

I don't mind Goku being out of commission at times, because a lot of the supporting cast is interesting and I love it when characters like Gohan/Vegeta/Trunks get a solid chunk of screentime.

The problem with it is that Toriyama started using it as a crutch, it turned into a formula he'd repeat every arc. Goku gets written out, the supporting characters fight midtier baddies, get whooped by final boss, Goku shows up at the last minute. Fortunately he stopped doing that in Super (except for the Moro arc I guess).

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:41 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:49 pm A big issue is that the story of Dragon Ball is too focused on battle and not enough on the reason for a battle. There's nothing to really resolve and see the characters grow and change in a lot of the battles. I hate to use an example from a different series but battles served clearer purposes in, say, Naruto. Naruto's battle with Kiba endeared him to his classmates, his battle with Neji endeared him to the shinobi industry (although he was really only doing it to get Hinata's attention and restore her dignity). Other battles always saw Naruto reaching to be recognized by a 'higher power' of sorts. There needs to be a clearer, stated goal with a characters' battle. I think a big part of why #17's story resonated for fans during the Tournament of Power was because we could see how Gokuu was able to change him.
The lack of clarity was NEVER DB's problem. It's either to stop someone from destroying the world, revenge, to win a title, or because the heroes want to fight someone strong.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by emperior » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:02 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:49 pm I wonder, what if the Gi'nyuu were saved for Mecha Freeza coming to Earth? This way that little incursion can be an actual arc of it's own and give Tenshinhan, Chaozu and Yamcha a way to show off?
But why would we care about the Earthlings fighting the Ginyu Force? It would end up making them even more filler than they are in the original.

Ginyu Force are fine as they are, the problem brought up is that Toriyama used the same trope with Goku twice on the same arc, so basically both the fight with Ginyu and Freeza feel like filler/stalling for Goku to arrive.

I still say the fight with Freeza feels more like filler, because at least one of the Ginyus (Guldo) got taken out and the gang going up against Freeza’s strongest henchmen was the natural progression of the Dragon Balls collecting game which was going on Namek (they even brought the scouters!) and while we knew Goku was coming to Namek it wasn’t telegraphed that he would arrive exactly to save his friends from dying against Recoome.
And the plot with regards to the DBs advances as they end up in Freeza’s hands, force him to go out to the Elder Namekian and that mistake is the key for the heroes to summon Polunga.

While in the fight with Freeza, what exactly happens plot-wise apart fighting? Dende’s healing powers are the definition of filler; Piccolo is useless and only becomes useful when helping Goku; the power-ups Gohan and Vegeta get are, ultimately, just filler to extend the fights.

Basically the only meaningful event for the plot in that fight is that Vegeta loses against Freeza. I bet one could literally cut out all the parts from Freeza arriving to fight up until his last transformation and the only thing which would need explanation is: how the fuck is his tail chopped and why the heck is Piccolo there.
Not that I care, because eventually that fight builds up Freeza as a character, has some cool moments and is also build-up for Gohan’s Super Saiyan 2 transformation. And also, while it’s filler, it’s still very entertaining so it’s not like I am suggesting that cutting the fight out would be beneficial to the story, but at least it would remove Goku’s 2nd absence.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:08 am

emperior hits the nail on the head.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:39 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:07 pm
ekrolo2 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:46 pm . You lose nothing of substantive worth by removing the entire Ginyu Force section.
Aside from the Ginyu Force being a lot of fun.

And showing had bad things were that Vegeta teamed up with Gohan and Kuririn

And show how much stronger Goku had gotten since his fight with Vegeta on earth.
Point one is more subjective than the other two but I find precisely none of the Ginyu's any fun with Ginyu himself being one of Toriyama's most boring characters. As for needing an impetous for Vegeta to team up with the good guys? Have Freeza get pissed at Zarbon dying and flying over to Guru himself, that'll freak Vegeta hard enough to force cooperation. Goku showing off the fruits of his training? Have him land on Namek and take on Freeza fairly evenly (at first, anyhow) with everyone else getting dicked around before hand.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:42 pm

And what of the DB's?
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:54 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:42 pm And what of the DB's?
You could still have them use the Dragon Balls before Freeza finds them. Remember, Vegeta had already stolen all of Freeza’s Dragon Balls before he killed Zarbon.

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ABED » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:55 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:54 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:42 pm And what of the DB's?
You could still have them use the Dragon Balls before Freeza finds them. Remember, Vegeta had already stolen all of Freeza’s Dragon Balls before he killed Zarbon.
If Freeza even has one and doesn't leave them with trusted lieutenants, Gohan and Kuririn are screwed. Kuririn and Gohan don't have the power to take them away from Vegeta. They only are able to get them from Vegeta because they worked together and he drops his guard long enough to take a nap.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:09 pm

The conclusion is that removing the Ginyu Force would need a big rewrite to make certain key events fit. Therefore they aren’t filler.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:01 pm

emperior wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:09 pm The conclusion is that removing the Ginyu Force would need a big rewrite to make certain key events fit. Therefore they aren’t filler.
Like what? Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn team up because they realize that Freeza himself is now on the warpath. Freeza finds them before they can start making wishes and attacks. Everyone tries to protect Dende while he tries to make the wishes. Freeza has a difficult time and seamlessly transforms into his second form and then third form after the first (revive all the Namekians) and second wishes (revive Piccolo and friends) are made as the intensity of his three foe's attacks overwhelm him. Finally, perhaps the Grand Elder dies before a third wish can be made. Gokuu arrives and fights Freeza. While watching the fight on from Kaiou's planet, Piccolo contacts God on Earth to collect the Dragon Balls and wish for the resurrection of the Grand Elder.

The only reason the Namek arc is as long as it is is due to JUMP having magazines to sell. We can parry down the arc a bit. God knows three named henchmen is enough for Freeza. The changes that could be made aren't all that big, in my opinion.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by ABED » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:53 pm

Please stop "writing". First, no way Freeza has trouble fighting Vegeta, Kuririn, or Gohan, much less have so much trouble the heroes would have enough time to gather the DB's, summon Porunga and make several wishes. And second, your "rewrites" are never good. Sorry if that's harsh but I hate it when armchair writers imply these sorts of rewrites would be no big deal.

If you trim down the arc, the Ginyu Force is NOT the first trim. Hell,, I'd get rid of Dodoria before them.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:38 pm

These “this is how I would get rid of the Ginyu Force” post basically prove how integral they were to the story.

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by TVfan721 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:32 pm

Goku doesn't have long absences in the manga, which is the official canon. It was only a thing in the anime which was loaded with filler. The anime filler took Goku's absences and magnified it big time.

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:48 pm

Reading people defend pointless nonsense like the Ginyu Force in such incredibly smug tones reminds me why no other fandom likes Dragon Ball fans or treats us with respect. We're easily the most ignorant group of mouth breathers on the internet and in conversations like these it really shines through!
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by emperior » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:56 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:48 pm Reading people defend pointless nonsense like the Ginyu Force in such incredibly smug tones reminds me why no other fandom likes Dragon Ball fans or treats us with respect. We're easily the most ignorant group of mouth breathers on the internet and in conversations like these it really shines through!
I will take the bait here.

Why would we care about what other fandoms think of us? Are they some kind of elite people or something?

How and why is it ignorant to defend the Ginyu Force?

You talk about “smug tones” yet here you are acting like your opinion is perfect and everyone else is a dumbass for not agreeing with you. Maybe take a breath, re-read this thread and pay some attention to the arguments many of us gave as to why the Ginyu Force is not “pointless nonsense”. Then, if you do not agree, be fair to do so but actually quote us and discuss where and why you disagree with our takes.
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:49 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:48 pm Reading people defend pointless nonsense like the Ginyu Force in such incredibly smug tones reminds me why no other fandom likes Dragon Ball fans or treats us with respect. We're easily the most ignorant group of mouth breathers on the internet and in conversations like these it really shines through!
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:55 pm

Since the Ginyus were a gajillion times more interesting than Zarbon and Dodoria, I would've just dropped the latter and made them Frieza's goon squad accompanying him to Namek from the very beginning.

Vegeta spends the arc evading them and picking them off one by one. Recoome beats the tar out of him and Vegeta recovers, gets a huge boost, and takes him out, too. And here's the twist: a newly powered Vegeta proves to be too powerful for Ginyu too, so Ginyu switches bodies with him!

Ginyu clumsily assumes Vegeta's in cahoots with Krillin and Gohan and tries to deceive them into joining him, but of course they attack him. Since Ginyu can't access all of Vegeta's power, they hold him off for a while until a wounded Ginyu!Vegeta arrives. He's forced to swallow his pride and team up with Gohan and Krillin. Ginyu starts getting too acclimated to Vegeta's body, but that's when Nail comes in and helps bring their combined powers over the top. Ginyu tries to switch bodies with Nail once he gets too banged up, but Vegeta jumps in the way to get his body back. Then Ginyu winds up in a frog.

Conventional wisdom says the heroes just let Vegeta rot. Only problem: heeeeeeere's Frieza!

Now, how do you solve the problem of Goku's absences being formulaic and removing his connection to Frieza beyond an overarching narrative thread?

He lands right in the middle of Frieza's trajectory. He fights him.

And gets BLOWN THE FUCK OUT.

Gohan, Krillin, and Nail arrive on the scene before Frieza can finish him off. They're of course no match for Frieza.

But Vegeta, ever the determinator, drags his battered body to the scene and manages to save Gohan before Frieza can try finishing him off, too. That's when Goku comes up with a plan and telepathically communicates it to Krillin, Vegeta, and Gohan: Krillin does a solar flare, one of them grabs Goku's carcass, and they all get the fuck out of dodge and get to where all of the Dragon Balls are gathered up. Nail agrees to hold off Frieza while they regroup.

Once they escape, Goku reveals the senzu beans, and gives two out to Gohan and Krillin, and then uses the third...on VEGETA?!

"But Goku, what the fuck are you doing?! We have Vegeta out numbered and you want to make him stronger?!"

"LOL I'll be fine and I owe him one for helping Gohan. Plus, Vegeta knows he can't beat Frieza by himself."

Vegeta agrees, but seeing as how Goku would be a pretty big fucking help, he decides to fly Goku to Frieza's spaceship to heal while Krillin and Gohan guard the Dragon Balls. Perhaps the ensuing flight results in a conversation between the two Saiyans that gives them some sort of common ground.

Krillin and Gohan are like "LOL fuck Vegeta let's make our wish" but of course they don't have the password. From there shit plays out how we remember: they find Dende, make the wishes, Vegeta flips out etc etc etc. only now Goku has huge personal stakes in the battle and there's a greater tension since we just saw Frieza open up a can of whoopass on him without even needing to transform. Didn't even need to remove his armor and shit. Can he do it?!

Feel free to call this nonsensical, I just wrote all that bullshit on the spot :P
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:27 pm

Those are actually some really nice ideas, jjgp1112. I feel like we could probably involve Gohan and Kuririn a little more in the Gi'nyuu battles, though. Vegeta takes out Butta, then Gohan and Kuririn take out Gurd (who is sent off to do less important things since he's not as strong as Vegeta), then Vegeta takes out Jheese but falls to Reacoom. I like how you involved Nail better, too. The tension with Freeza is also articulated a bit better, too, because now Gokuu is looking for a rematch.

What if there was a sort of limit on Freeza's transformations? Maybe he needs to assume damage for his artificially created first three forms to transform? After all, those forms were created to suppress his wild power in his true form so what if he cannot so easily rid himself of those limiters? This way those forms can be maintained (if necessitated for creative or capitalistic reasons)?
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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:17 am

Gaffer Tape wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm To utilize a term ABED uses to great effect, Goku's absences definitely take on a feeling of diminishing returns. Goku showing up at the last second works well in The Piccolo Arc because it's new and because Goku isn't actually removed from the story. He's simply on a separate path. It works okay in The Saiyan Arc because the narrative threads tie into him. It's his species that are attacking. Raditz came to earth because of him. Goku is gone because he died defending earth from him. The latter two Saiyans decide to wait (a little) for him.

The Freeza Arc is really where it's ruined, not only because it feels like a narrative crutch plot device by this point but because Goku showing up at the last second ONCE has already been done, Toriyama feels compelled to ratchet up the "excitement" by doubling down. Goku has no connection or role in The Freeza Arc prior to simply taking over as the protagonist two thirds of the way through the story. Toriyama can't even keep it straight whether or not Freeza knows he exists prior to Goku challenging him to battle. At this point, it's almost fair to say that Goku has become a more of a plot device than a character. He exists to show up and save the day, and that's about it.

Then The Cell Arc tricks the audience by subverting expectations (and even commenting on it) by having Goku be present at the very beginning. But that's nothing but a ruse as he is once again removed TWICE, first to the virus and then immediately to go train. It's reafansI ere where I hear a lot of fans claiming it's good because it keeps things from being "The Goku Show" and allows the other characters to shine. But quite frankly, it doesn't make the other characters look any better or more useful when their primary roles are to fail constantly until Goku shows up to save them. It not only doesn't keep the series from feeling like "The Goku Show," it makes the moments he's not around feel like padding for cheap drama.

So, to summarize, it's not necessarily bad, and it can be done well. However, like a lot of Toriyama's narrative crutches, it was overused to the point it lost all impact.
I think the argument in favor of Goku being taken out of the story for a awhile to prevent it being "the Goku show" has nothing to do expecting the supporting cast to save the day (I don't think anyone really expects that lmao). Its that, oddly enough, when Goku isn't in the spotlight the supporting characters are given more room and opportunity to be...well....characters (its hard to explain).

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Re: Goku's long absences in the story

Post by Sadala Elite » Thu Mar 05, 2020 4:24 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:38 pm These “this is how I would get rid of the Ginyu Force” post basically prove how integral they were to the story.
Exactly. Its not like Zarbon & Dodoria nor any of Freeza's other soldiers in the Namek had any more impact on the arc or importance than the Ginyu Force (who were the only members of Freeza's army to be of any consequence in the Namek saga).

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