Team Faulconer - Singles vs Orange Bricks

[Fionordequester]

The ongoing Faulconer thread has reminded me of one of the biggest sore spots I had regarding the Orange Bricks. Remember how the Japanese audio sounds significantly worse than it did when it was being broadcast?

Well, guess what? The English audio has that issue, too! The compositions and music placements were NOT actually what aired on Toonami! They're rough draft, beta versions!

You see, Mike Smith, Julius Dobos, and Scott Morgan were the ones who did most of the composition and track placement throughout the series... But there was another. "Evan Jones the mixing guy". He'd look over everything right before it aired, then make his own little tweaks right before.

Sometimes the changes were minor (but still awesome)...

Cell Kills a Man (Orange Bricks)

Cell Kills a Man (Broadcast)

...And then sometimes the changes were major enough to completely CHANGE the emotion of the scene!!

Goku's Nightmare about #17 & 18 (Orange Bricks)

Goku's Nightmare about #17 & 18 (Broadcast)

In cases like that, you can see that the original had too many wacky sounds for what was supposed to be a very dark, very disturbing scene. So Evan Jones scrapped the entire 2nd half of the original track (aside from the 4 second Trunks beat), and replaced it with something far scarier. Something far more suited to Goku's friends and family being murdered right before his eyes.

All of these improvements, all of these refinements... Gone, along with the voice filters. As such, the Orange Bricks are a disappointment to all fans, dub & sub. So, what I'd like is to compile a list of ALL the musical differences between the two versions! That way, someone could put all these little tweaks back in!

So, those two I mentioned above are a start. Anyone have any other examples?

[Planetnamek]

Yup that's why I mostly avoided the OBs(aside from Seasons One and Two, and I only got those to fill in the gaps with the redubbed versions of episodes 1-67 due to Funimation inexplicably discontinuing their "Ultimate Uncut" line of DVDs for no real reason).

The redubbed episodes are changed too, as originally Vic Mignogna voiced Burter for the original broadcasts of the UUE, but that was changed for the OBs due to Vic not being available at the time.

Very interested to know some of the other differences.

[jjgp1112]

The music differences aren't really that frequent outside of the initial run of Ginyu episodes. Besides that, the music placement is pretty much the same.

The more significant differences are dialogue in certain spots.

The worst case of music placement differences is actually outside the series - Movie 5's soundtrack. I've touched on it a million times but it's blatantly an unfinished mix. Tracks start and stop at different times than the original release, abruptly cut off instead of fade out, aren't synced nearly as well to the scenes, and are missing effects like the low-pass filter for the Disturbed song when Goku and Cooler are fightinging underwater.

[MasenkoHA]

Some of the music seemed to have changed to suit the dialog revisions?

When Dende did the infamous “Don’t piss off the God of love”line some goofy “duh duh” music played when Krillin said “uhh right”

When the redub changed Dende’s line to “please don’t disrespect the dragon” and Krillin’s reaction was less dopey the “seriouish” music continued to play.

[Fionordequester]

Another change I found...

Cell Regrows his Arm (Both Versions)

That one's another wildly different one. I prefer the Singles version, as it really does make Cell seem like something out of a nightmare. Only thing I don't like is the random use of "Kame's Tale" at 1:16-1:22.

[10gigtriforce]

Yup, thats why I watch my single remuxes over the OB(or season sets ot 30thA) when i wanna watch dubbed. also why I'm collecting vhs tapes so I can get the raw hifi stereo and replaced the overly compressed ac3 on the dvds with it. since the cut and uncut had pretty much the same placment it gets me the childhood nostalgia feeling with also not so censored

[Danfun64]

I was under the impression that well-authored ac3 was better than VHS Hi-Fi...

...then again, I did say "well-authored", and as little I know about the audio bitrate of the singles, I know the video bitrate was shit lol.

[10gigtriforce]

I was under the impression that well-authored ac3 was better than VHS Hi-Fi...

...then again, I did say "well-authored", and as little I know about the audio bitrate of the singles, I know the video bitrate was shit lol.

vhs hi-fi(if in good condition) is comparable to uncompressed pcm/cd audio. Now dvds themselves technically can do stereo pcm audio at uptp 96khz vs the 44.1khz that cd, vhs, and laserdisc can do. But the majority of the time its compressed to 224kbit or worse bitrate ac3 on dvds which kills the quality. though 640kbit stereo ac3 is pretty dang nice, but no dvds use it.

flat full-range frequency response (20 Hz to 20 kHz), excellent 70 dB signal-to-noise ratio (in consumer space, second only to the compact disc), dynamic range of 90 dB, and professional audio-grade channel separation (more than 70 dB).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS#Hi-Fi_audio_system


tl;dr ac3 itself can get pretty dang close, with the age of vhs tapes probably about the same if not a tad better. but no dvds used it right for stereo.

[Planetnamek]

Very interesting, I had no idea some VHS tapes had better audio quality then DVDs.

[10gigtriforce]

Very interesting, I had no idea some VHS tapes had better audio quality then DVDs.

yeah basically all from 86 or so, since hi-fi tapes can be played on non hi-fi players without issue using the legacy(worse than dvd imo) audio, assuming they are in good condition will. But only 2 channels so it maxes out at 4.0 matrix'd dolby surround sound vs the 5.1 dvds(and later laserdiscs) can do.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Friendly heads up. The voice filters were removed as part of Funimation's revisioning of the series when they released the OBs. I believe they did what they could to make it more like the original product without scrapping the dub and redoing it. I've seen people on YouTube make comparison videos saying "They forgot to add this sound effect to his voice!" but it is intentional. For instance, Freeza's second or third form had a mixture of Linda Young's voices during the broadcast, but that mix was removed for the OBs. Super Boo had a sound effect applied to his voice for the broadcast that was removed for the OBs. Android 19 did as well. I believe that the Japanese version of DBZ didn't have those changes, so Funi removed them too. To prove that this isn't a mistake, watch Kai. They don't have voice filters added there.

VegettoEX also had a podcast a few months ago, I believe an anniversary of the Ginyu - Assault DVD/VHS, that mentioned those singles had the broadcast version of the show and are not the same as the orange bricks. He mentioned (and included examples) of dialogue that was redubbed for the OBs such as Freeza changing "Looks like he went the way of the dodo" to "How about I make your son next?" or something like that. There is also a line about Vegeta saying something like, "It's like stealing candy from a baby!" to something more serious. It is a very interesting listen.

I can't speak with 100% authenticity, but this is my belief and I think the changes Funimation made were for the better. They were also much more prevalent in the early parts of the dub as opposed to the end of it (Boo arc).

Mike's podcast (#0474) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jbGbCY ... e=youtu.be

EDIT: Just watched the scenes from Goku's nightmare. I never knew they changed the music for the OBs as well. Wow. I definitely prefer what was aired on TV for that scene better than the OBs. But out of purity and faithfulness, Kikuchi is how I watch DBZ. The songs they used in those scenes were really good though, but the revised songs just do NOT fit. It's almost like Funi was practicing how to suck like Toei does now.

EDIT 2: Holy shit. Singles were way better than the OB here (again).

Cell Regrows his Arm (Both Versions)

[90sDBZ]

I get the impression some of the changes were made so they could pass it off as "revised", which is what they advertised it as. At least the dialogue changes anyway. For example Goku's "Hey mister" line to the driving instructor was used again when he sees Yajirobe on the Orange Bricks.

I've always felt Super Buu's voice filter was awesome and made him sound more menacing. Granted it was only used in certain scenes when he screamed, but the remastered dub feels worse off without it. I was also disappointed they never brought it back for Kai.

I'd say about 99% of the time the Faulconer placement remains the same. It's mostly those early Ginyu episodes were it's different, with the very occasional scene later on, like the ones mentioned above.

What is interesting is the previously unused dialogue being added back in, like Goku's entire speech to Kid Buu during the flashback before he finishes him. That exact same speech was actually in the Westwood dub funnily enough, but was removed from the OG Funimation dub before broadcast, then added back in for the Bricks.

[10gigtriforce]

Friendly heads up. The voice filters were removed as part of Funimation's revisioning of the series when they released the OBs. I believe they did what they could to make it more like the original product without scrapping the dub and redoing it. I've seen people on YouTube make comparison videos saying "They forgot to add this sound effect to his voice!" but it is intentional. For instance, Freeza's second or third form had a mixture of Linda Young's voices during the broadcast, but that mix was removed for the OBs. Super Boo had a sound effect applied to his voice for the broadcast that was removed for the OBs. Android 19 did as well. I believe that the Japanese version of DBZ didn't have those changes, so Funi removed them too. To prove that this isn't a mistake, watch Kai. They don't have voice filters added there.

VegettoEX also had a podcast a few months ago, I believe an anniversary of the Ginyu - Assault DVD/VHS, that mentioned those singles had the broadcast version of the show and are not the same as the orange bricks. He mentioned (and included examples) of dialogue that was redubbed for the OBs such as Freeza changing "Looks like he went the way of the dodo" to "How about I make your son next?" or something like that. There is also a line about Vegeta saying something like, "It's like stealing candy from a baby!" to something more serious. It is a very interesting listen.

I can't speak with 100% authenticity, but this is my belief and I think the changes Funimation made were for the better. They were also much more prevalent in the early parts of the dub as opposed to the end of it (Boo arc).

Mike's podcast (#0474) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jbGbCY ... e=youtu.be

EDIT: Just watched the scenes from Goku's nightmare. I never knew they changed the music for the OBs as well. Wow. I definitely prefer what was aired on TV for that scene better than the OBs. But out of purity and faithfulness, Kikuchi is how I watch DBZ. The songs they used in those scenes were really good though, but the revised songs just do NOT fit. It's almost like Funi was practicing how to suck like Toei does now.



EDIT 2: Holy shit. Singles were way better than the OB here (again).

Cell Regrows his Arm (Both Versions)

and this is why, when i watched dubbed, i watch my singles. the OB and their newer releases of the dub are just well not what i want much beyond a chipped together mess. sure the singles aint perfect but at least they feel like a companys first dub for that reason.

[jjgp1112]

snip

This definitely not the case. They clearly used an unfinished audio take, probably so they could have a 5.1 mix. Aside from differences in filters and music placement, there also numerous instances where there are dialogue that wasn't present in the singles that are there in the remastered version, most notably Goku's monologue when he's about to finish off Buu, as well as errors where somebody s visibly speaking but there's no dialogue (such as in episode 195 when Goku finds out Cell and Frieza are stirring stuff up in Hell) where there was originally.

And then there's stuff like Justin Cook's Super Buu missing the voice filter that deepended his voice and distinguished it from Raditz.

[Valerius Dover]

I've actually been really curious to know how much of the score differs on the bricks as I haven't seen the original. From reading posts on here for years it seems that it's mostly the occasional cue in the Frieza and Cell arc episodes, while the Buu arc had no changes to the score. And then there's Episode 70, which is completely different. Should we maybe have a comprehensive list in the OP going by episode order, perhaps?

[Fionordequester]

Should we maybe have a comprehensive list in the OP going by episode order, perhaps?

Sounds like a good idea to me! I'll be sure to do that at some point!

[Danfun64]

Good luck documenting all of the different varieties of the Funi Z dub. 67b-291 alone has the Toonami version, the edited version (if it has less edits than Toonami), the Australian broadcast that had its own edits (might not count aside from eyecatches though), the YTV edit (which has line variants and AFAIK, where they overlap, match the length of the westwood dub episodes exactly), the uncut version shown on the singles, the Orange Bricks revision, and the Season Blu-rays revision (i think the audio of the 30th Anniversary is the same as the Season Blu-rays, but IDK)... and with the last two there are sometimes differences between the Faulconer and Kikuchi tracks that go beyond the different soundtrack.

And that doesn't include the situation with the Ultimate Uncut dub which has never been released to completion in its original form (there's the singles that go up to 27, then there's the Orange Bricks revision (i think audio on Levels might be the same as Orange Bricks but uncompressed, but I could be wrong) and the Season Blu-rays revision (i think the audio of the 30th Anniversary is the same as the Season Blu-rays, but IDK).

Maybe I'm overcomplicating shit, but nobody's ever documented all of the small differences and changes to the audio mixes.

[Zestanor]

And that doesn't include the situation with the Ultimate Uncut dub which has never been released to completion in its original form

I wonder if anyone taped those for UU “broadcast audio” ...

But if I just wanted to see the dub, I would consider the UU redub in the same light as the OB revision. Who would be upset if it were discarded entirely?

The “Funi dub” is the edited Ocean episodes one to fifty-something, and afterward the “full/uncut” singles dub.

[Danfun64]

I wasn't factoring in the Saban dub when I typed that.

There isn't really much variation in those episodes, aside from the first few having some alternative takes/lines used to tone down references to death/killing. Even then, it's never been a situation of different music placements (aside from YTV broadcasts changing the OP/ED theme to what would later be known as the Westwood theme).

Also, ep 53 was the last one before Saban bailed on Funi and Funi dropped the Ocean cast.

[Planetnamek]

And that doesn't include the situation with the Ultimate Uncut dub which has never been released to completion in its original form

I wonder if anyone taped those for UU “broadcast audio” ...

But if I just wanted to see the dub, I would consider the UU redub in the same light as the OB revision. Who would be upset if it were discarded entirely?

The “Funi dub” is the edited Ocean episodes one to fifty-something, and afterward the “full/uncut” singles dub.

Yeah it sure would be great to hear Vic's pre-Kai take on Burter.

I'd be kind of bummed if the UU faded completely, if only because it was interesting to see those early episodes uncut and because they really got a raw deal from Funi.