Level 1.1 back...in stock?

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Different » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:44 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:55 am
KBABZ wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:32 pm
Are these region-free?
They are Region AB
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:48 am
I can’t track of all these different Funi releases.

How do these level sets differ from the orange bricks?
To sum it up:

1080p vs 480p
4:3 as opposed to 16:9
Light DNR rather than heavy DNR and bleaching
Fake grain instead of no grain
No crop
How come people are crapping hard on the 30th set yet praising the Level sets so much when they both have DNR and fake grain?

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:00 am
So better than the orange brick and blue rays but worse than Dragon Box sets and singles?
The Levels are better than any and all other releases of Dragon Ball so far.
Different wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:44 pm
How come people are crapping hard on the 30th set yet praising the Level sets so much when they both have DNR and fake grain?
Because the Level sets used a small amount of DNR to reduce grain, and fake additional grain, to make the level of grain consistent throughout a given episode, and when applied, the DNR was done tastefully, lightly. The result is a very grainy, but VERY sharp, VERY detailed image, and ultimately, the grain is constantly moving, so not only do you tune it out, but the full, beautiful detail of the picture underneath is plain for anyone to see. Essentially, the Levels are a rather excellent transfer of the original film, presenting every detail of the picture in the most honest, high-quality way anyone could present it. (It's not quite perfect; arguably they could have done a little more to mitigate the dark crushing inherent in their film masters, and the NEPs are missing, but ultimately it's about the best anyone could hope for)

The 30th sets, on the other hand, apply DNR incredibly heavily. It's still based on the same image as the Levels, but their goal isn't to present the image honestly, it's to give a "clean" image. And in Funi's minds, "clean" means "absolutely not a fucking SPECK of grain on a single frame of this entire series or so help me god!"
So, they applied a DNR filter aggressively to the entire picture, indiscriminantly.
Of course, a DNR filter is inherently basically just a blurring filter, so to create the artificial feel of a "HD" image, rather than have a blurry mess somewhat akin to Kai, Funimation applied a heavy sharpening filter on the image. The result is an image that's had its texture utterly destroyed, all the linework is washed out and inconsistently faded like a cheap watercolour filter was applied; all subtlety of shading -- particularly in the backgrounds -- is completely wiped out, and because of the way the filter works, it makes all significant shading wobble like you're watching an episode of Ed Edd N Eddy.
The picture is so bad, it actually has less detail than the rather iffy standard-def Dragon Box DVDs in Japan, or even the original Funi singles from 1996-2002.
Essentially, the 30th sets have the same problems as the Season BDs, just they swapped out the cropping and overcontrasted image for a zoomed and red-tinted image; these "remasters" are about the worst job one could do when trying to present a transfer of film-based material, and every single person involved in the DNR/sharpening/other disgusting filtering that ruined the image so should be fired, and never allowed to work in the industry again.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Captain Awesome » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:16 pm

Sorry what do you mean by fake grain? The level sets certainly have dupe grain as they’re multigenerational copies but they only applied a light DNR process. They didn’t re-add any grain or noise after the dust, fix and noise pass.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:13 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:16 pm
Sorry what do you mean by fake grain? The level sets certainly have dupe grain as they’re multigenerational copies but they only applied a light DNR process. They didn’t re-add any grain or noise after the dust, fix and noise pass.
I think there is fake grain (it's finer like the 30th set) on the title cards. But I assume they basicaly screenshot the pre-text and added the dragon balls and english titles to make the english title cards. So the grain was added for consistancy with the episodes

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:51 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:13 pm
Captain Awesome wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:16 pm
Sorry what do you mean by fake grain? The level sets certainly have dupe grain as they’re multigenerational copies but they only applied a light DNR process. They didn’t re-add any grain or noise after the dust, fix and noise pass.
I think there is fake grain (it's finer like the 30th set) on the title cards. But I assume they basicaly screenshot the pre-text and added the dragon balls and english titles to make the english title cards. So the grain was added for consistancy with the episodes
Correct, you kinda have to do that so it visually blends. Although I honestly don't know why considering you wouldn't be able to tell on a CRT anyways.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Captain Awesome » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:48 pm

On the title cards sure.

But @Robo4900 seems to think there was some additional noise added to the picture following the DNR pass. This isn't true, the grain structure in the Level sets is from the film itself - not added in post like the 30th Anniversary set.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:52 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:16 pm
Sorry what do you mean by fake grain? The level sets certainly have dupe grain as they’re multigenerational copies but they only applied a light DNR process. They didn’t re-add any grain or noise after the dust, fix and noise pass.
Captain Awesome wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:48 pm
On the title cards sure.
But @Robo4900 seems to think there was some additional noise added to the picture following the DNR pass. This isn't true, the grain structure in the Level sets is from the film itself - not added in post like the 30th Anniversary set.
Y'know what, I was probably misremembering. I think I might've been thinking of one of the versions of Star Wars 4k77. Though I might be wrong about that too. The idea I had in my head is this; do you DNR it all shot-by-shot so that every shot has the same grain level, or do you DNR half the shots to have less grain, then add fake grain to the other shots? Both approaches result in a much more even level of grain throughout the film, but the former approach does a lot more damage to the high-grain shots. So, adding a little fake grain here and there keeps a consistent level of grain throughout without having to apply excessive DNR. Though I think in the end, 4k77 -- as well as 4k83 -- instead went the route of having one release that takes the former approach, one that takes that further, DNRing even the less-grainy shots, and DNRing all other shots to match that level, and then one that has no DNR at all. I'm sure you can guess which version I prefer to watch... And y'know, watching the no-DNR version with my parents, and my grandma (who also saw it in cinema when it released, with my mum, back in the '70s), and my sister, the grain wasn't an issue at all; in fact, all of them absolutely loved the razor-sharp picture.

Anyway, I think I remember there being some evidence to suggest an approach like the one I'm suggesting was used in the Levels, since the level of grain is very consistent (aside from the OPs/EDs, taken from Funi's 35mm reel of DBZ movie 1, which IMO they really should have added fake grain to, and maybe slightly blurred, to make them more closely match the 16mm footage of the show footage), and their fake grain algorithm is so good that the title cards blend in with the footage pretty much perfectly. But y'know what, it's been ages since I was looking into this, so I have no idea.

My apologies. I was far more well-read on this when I made my original "Were the Levels really that expensive though?" post/thread a while back.

The ultimate point is that the Levels used a very light DNR that doesn't damage the actual picture detail noticeably, and the only definitely-known place where fake grain was used was title cards.
Meanwhile, the 30th sets have a heavy DNR that destroys the picture detail super hard, but definitely has a very light layer of fake grain over the whole thing (the most charitable read of this I can come up with is that Funi is so incompetent as to think the DNR enhances the picture, but also wants to throw a bone to the fans who think it looks better with grain, so they added a tiny bit back in at the end, just so there is some grain in the picture).
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by damn » Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:36 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 pm
Of course, a DNR filter is inherently basically just a blurring filter, so to create the artificial feel of a "HD" image, rather than have a blurry mess somewhat akin to Kai, Funimation applied a heavy sharpening filter on the image. The result is an image that's had its texture utterly destroyed, all the linework is washed out and inconsistently faded like a cheap watercolour filter was applied; all subtlety of shading -- particularly in the backgrounds -- is completely wiped out, and because of the way the filter works, it makes all significant shading wobble like you're watching an episode of Ed Edd N Eddy.
Hey don't be talking shit about Ed, Edd n Eddy.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:20 pm

damn wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 5:36 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:30 pm
Of course, a DNR filter is inherently basically just a blurring filter, so to create the artificial feel of a "HD" image, rather than have a blurry mess somewhat akin to Kai, Funimation applied a heavy sharpening filter on the image. The result is an image that's had its texture utterly destroyed, all the linework is washed out and inconsistently faded like a cheap watercolour filter was applied; all subtlety of shading -- particularly in the backgrounds -- is completely wiped out, and because of the way the filter works, it makes all significant shading wobble like you're watching an episode of Ed Edd N Eddy.
Hey don't be talking shit about Ed, Edd n Eddy.
Ed Edd N Eddy is a great show, but one which made the deliberate choice to have a sort of wobbly look to it. Dragon Ball is not Ed Edd N Eddy, and the sort of wobbly look should not apply to it.
That's all I meant. :)
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by damn » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:41 pm

Well, you shouldn't compare EEnE's squigglevision technique with Funi's shitty releases because EEnE's technique actually looks great and is meant to simulate the whole "animation by mistake" of old.
Comparing it to Funi's shitty releases sounds insulting, just saying :P

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:22 pm

damn wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:41 pm
Well, you shouldn't compare EEnE's squigglevision technique with Funi's shitty releases because EEnE's technique actually looks great and is meant to simulate the whole "animation by mistake" of old.
Comparing it to Funi's shitty releases sounds insulting, just saying :P
Fair point.

My apologies to the maestros who animated Edd Ed n' Eddy. Perhaps I deserve Goku's Rolf's hat of discipline.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 pm

Earnest question... why does anyone care about one set from an incomplete release being in stock?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:46 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 pm
Earnest question... why does anyone care about one set from an incomplete release being in stock?
Why not? It's a release people like and appreciate the effort that was put into it and it doesn't hurt anyone one to not pay scalper prices for a "rare" piece of Dragon Ball Z home media history.

There is also the question on where this stock came from. Whether from FUNimation, or Amazon. It doesn't appear to be a pressing. There is a "made in mexico" sticker that was placed on the slipcover of 1.1 that both my original and new copy have.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:55 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 pm
Earnest question... why does anyone care about one set from an incomplete release being in stock?
It's the best way to watch those episodes legally. And particularly for people lucky enough to have bought the Dragon Boxes, it's an upgrade to their collection.
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:14 pm

But if you have all the DBoxes, why buy the first 14(?)?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Xell » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:15 pm

I think people care because they didn’t have the opportunity to buy it the first time around and it tends to be sold by third parties for an extortionate price nowadays.

People have seen the screenshots and want to experience that in motion on 50+ inch TVs which are much more of a standard now than they were back when the Level sets were first released.

It’s one of the rare occasions where FUNimation got it right.. For a short period albeit.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:35 pm

I get that it's rare, but it's the first of an incomplete release.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:51 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:35 pm
I get that it's rare, but it's the first of an incomplete release.
Some people like to collect releases or even might not have dragon box 1 (it doesnt cover all the episodes but it's better than nothing)

As of right now there is no release to get 99% of the saiayan saga in 4x3 that isnt oop and this one blip took care of that for a few days

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:14 pm
But if you have all the DBoxes, why buy the first 14(?)?
Because it's a SIGNIFICANT upgrade to the picture of those first 17 episodes.

34 episodes if you can get ahold of 1.2 as well. (And some did; 1.2 was also on sale for a brief time)
Dragon Ball is a goofy kids cartoon from a long time ago. You take it too seriously at your own peril.
Debate the plot, characters, adaptations, dubs, etc., criticise the home video, but never lose sight of the fact that it's all just entertainment. You're supposed to enjoy it. If you're not enjoying it, just walk away.

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Re: Level 1.1 back...in stock?

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:23 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:51 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:35 pm
I get that it's rare, but it's the first of an incomplete release.
Some people like to collect releases or even might not have dragon box 1 (it doesnt cover all the episodes but it's better than nothing)

As of right now there is no release to get 99% of the saiayan saga in 4x3 that isnt oop and this one blip took care of that for a few days
Alright. I'm not a collector. I don't really get collecting if you don't get use from it, and it just seems odd to me to value an upgraded picture of 17 episodes.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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