Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[ABED]

You don't explain why. You drop context, misquote, talk down to people, and think you've won.

Only based on clothing otherwise South Supreme Kai looks more like Android 16 than he does Shin.

There's some similarities, but he clearly looks like a Kaioshin.

Incorrect, I never said that at any point. Please read carefully.

Doesn't feel good being misquoted does it?

The Tournament of Power was yet another Tournament only half a year after they'd just finished the other one. Nothing but a big free for all. Another colour palette swapped transformation for Goku and Vegeta. Jiren was generic. Predictable outcome.

Yes, it's a tournament, but structured differently than we've seen before with a bunch of different fighters with a bunch of fun cool new abilities. The free for all as you call it was different and fun.And while Jiren was two dimensional, but that's not always a bad thing. The fight was intense and fun. Predictable isn't always a bad thing, though did you see 17 being the last man standing?

[TheNingen]

Gowasu had a more unique design than Shin. He's old and he don't look like Elder Kai so why does Zamasu have to look like Shin?

It is what you said. "He's old and he don't look like Elder Kai"

Almost like there's a reason he doesn't....Hm...I should call you Joe Biden for lying about something you said that can be easily looked up.

[Thunderbird]

You don't explain why.

I did. Multiple times. People ignore the bigger picture, that Super as a whole has no creativity to instead tell me...Goku Black is thinner....

"Nah forget that Super has no original storylines, locations or transformations and relies on bringing back old characters. Zamasu has a different shaped nose" lol.

There's some similarities, but he clearly looks like a Kaioshin.

But nothing at all like Shin so no need for Zamasu to have ever resembled Shin. He could have looked like anything just with similar clothing and hair too.

Yes, it's a tournament, but structured differently than we've seen before with a bunch of different fighters with a bunch of fun cool new abilities. The free for all as you call it was different and fun.And while Jiren was two dimensional, but that's not always a bad thing. The fight was intense and fun. Predictable isn't always a bad thing, though did you see 17 being the last man standing?

Still just a Tournament to get away from telling a creative and original story. One that lasted for almost a year so that Toriyama probably didn't have to worry about thinking up something else. Yes it was fun but not creative. Technically not new to Dragon Ball and of course came at a time when Battle Royales were the big thing in general because of gaming.

I'm not saying it wasn't fun. Broly was very entertaining and enjoyable to watch also but it didn't have any creativity to it whatsoever.

No though I did not see 17 being the last one left.

It is what you said. "He's old and he don't look like Elder Kai"

Right...that's not me saying that Gowasu should look like Elder Kai. That's me saying that he doesn't look like Elder Kai...

Almost like there's a reason he doesn't...

Because Toriyama liked to create original designs back then and not make colour palette swaps like he does now.

[Shaddy]

Dragon Ball is absolutely out of ideas, but when I read what fans say they want, most of the time I can't help but think "god that sounds so much fucking worse". AF? Multiverse? Are you kidding me? The fact that something as derivative and meaningless as Heroes is allowed to exist and have people call it "original" is absolutely disgusting. Dragon Ball should be doing new things with it's structure and storytelling, with the way characters are written. That garbage barely has characters or stories.

It's a sentiment I think about for pretty much every big franchise, now that I think about it. Once you have what is basically a guarantee that you'll make your money back, you should be experimenting in every way possible. I want to see Dragon Ball just jump into a story with none of the main characters present. Or throw everyone into a conflict that revolves on anything but fighting. Write unconventional heroes and villains, destroy any and all ties to the status quo, and especially let new people take a crack at writing material without Tori immediately ignoring it afterward. Non-fans, especially. People with their own visions, that aren't just doing the stuff Dragon Ball's already done.

Just do weird shit! A lot of it's not gonna work, but you'll inevitably create something totally unique and great if you give it your all for long enough. Dragon Ball from an administrative standpoint isn't really trying right now, but even if it was, the best it could be is still something we've seen done to death. Dumb debates over Super versus GT can only go so far before you realize that neither, even at its best, will give you what Dragon Ball did when you first watched/read it (though for what it's worth, GT stans' arguments are universally worse), so it should give you something else. A lot of that is the people who own the series being afraid of commercial risk, but, well, I don't care about that. Fuck commercialism.

[ABED]

I would argue people place too much emphasis on the bigger stuff and not nearly enough on details and execution. I like new stuff as much as the next guy, but GT had plenty of new stuff, it just wasn't executed well. Zamasu may look similar but he's a different villain than we've had to this point.

I wouldn't say he looks NOTHING like Kaioshin. The pinkish orange hue to his skin and the mohawk and the clothing all make him look like a Kaioshin.

Look if we're gonna talk about creativity or lack thereof, it should be noted how much of DB took inspiration from classic Hong Kong martial arts movies. He takes an awful lot from outside sources.

Once you have what is basically a guarantee that you'll make your money back, you should be experimenting in every way possible.

It worked for The Beatles and Metallica.

I want to see Dragon Ball just jump into a story with none of the main characters present. Or throw everyone into a conflict that revolves on anything but fighting.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand you lost me. I have no interest in DB with other characters. That's not Dragon Ball. It's a story about martial arts. Why should any story not involve fighting? Hell, we've got those in filler episodes like the baseball one.

you'll inevitably create something totally unique and great if you give it your all for long enough.

So unique it won't be DB anymore... so, yay? If you are going to go this far left of field, it will be something else, so why not do something else instead of DB?

Fuck commercialism.

Yay commercialism. It's what gave us DB to begin with.

[damn]

I understand the criticism that's brought up against Cell and Buu, but they still offered great content and character development that enhanced the the manga's overall story.

The Cell arc gave us Ssj2 Gohan and someone other than Goku saving the day.
Future Trunks and his timeline were among the few tragic stories in the franchise.
Vegeta finally reached Ssj after all he went through on Namek.
Piccolo and Kami finally resolved their differences and became one again.
Cell and the androids all brought something unique and interesting to the table.

The Buu arc gave us closure to Vegeta's arc.
Mr Satan got his own arc here, despite being envisioned as a one time joke character.
The final battle, from the Spirit bomb, to Vegeta's plan, everyone played a part in it.
Fusion, a new concept that was very fresh at the time.
It gave each of the main 3 characters exciting new forms (Ssj3 for Goku, Mystic for Gohan, and Majin/Ssj2 for Vegeta)

Despite the problems pointed out with them, I can't look at the above points and others, and see a reality where the original manga is better off without these 2 arcs. When it comes to modern DB, I think the BOG movie capped off DB's story in a perfect way, so I would've been satisfied if that was the only story we got from it.

Ruined Krillin. Ruined Vegeta by having him come back to life and made his entire character about his obsession with surpassing Goku.
Ruined Bulma by pairing her with Vegeta just so Toriyama could introduce Trunks.
The time travel didn't make sense. Dr. Gero being able to make Androids stronger than Super Saiyans was stupid.
Dr. Gero claiming he was affiliated with RRA was also not believable in the slightest.
Kami was sacrificed to boost Piccolo's power level(which ultimately wound up being useless).
Ruined Goku(that scene where he gives Cell a senzu bean)
Ruined everybody because they knew they could have preemptively deactivated the androids/Dr. Gero but chose to not do it for "some reason"
Gohan being an edgy little shit after becoming SSJ2 was terrible.
Him transforming because a fucking robot died was equally embarrassing.
They didn't bring anything new, androids existed since RRA.

Vegeta's "story arc" and his whole sacrifice in Boo saga was pathetic and underwhelming.
I never cared about Mr. Satan. And it's so painfully obvious that it was the editor's idea for that too.
Fusion was cool as fuck, I'll give Boo saga this at least. That's one of the few things that make it better than Cell saga at least.

I don't see how BoG is a fitting finale at all. Sadly GT is probably the best ending we got and that one isn't that great.
DB doesn't lend itself to ending anyways. It's always going to be an endless adventure because that's the spirit of DB which is why even though I don't like how the manga ending focuses too much on Oob I can accept it.

[ABED]

Ruined Krillin. Ruined Vegeta by having him come back to life and made his entire character about his obsession with surpassing Goku.
Ruined Bulma by pairing her with Vegeta just so Toriyama could introduce Trunks.
The time travel didn't make sense. Dr. Gero being able to make Androids stronger than Super Saiyans was stupid.
Dr. Gero claiming he was affiliated with RRA was also not believable in the slightest.
Kami was sacrificed to boost Piccolo's power level(which ultimately wound up being useless).
Ruined Goku(that scene where he gives Cell a senzu bean)
Ruined everybody because they knew they could have preemptively deactivated the androids/Dr. Gero but chose to not do it for "some reason"
I never cared about Mr. Satan. And it's so painfully obvious that it was the editor's idea for that too.

How'd they ruin Kuririn?
Vegeta's character WAS about surpassing Goku. No need to put Vegeta's story arc in quotes. It was his arc. He goes from elitist who gets bested by lower class fighters and it messes with his worldview. He's obsessed with besting him, then this low class peon not only outclasses him, he becomes the warrior of legend, and keeps outpacing him. To add insult to injury, his kid outpaces him. He keeps making bad decisions out of insecurity. Him finally admitting Goku is the better fighter and it not wounding him to say is the resolution of his character's journey.
How was Bulma ruined.
Time Travel never makes sense. It's a non-sensical concept.
How was Dr. Gero being with the RRA unbelievable?
The key to understanding why they didn't preemptively deactivate the cyborgs is because stopping them wasn't their goal. They wanted to fight them.
Toriyama clearly loves Mr. Satan. I'd be willing to bet that it wasn't his editor's idea to give him an arc. How the hell was it "painfully obvious" that it was his editor's idea?

[Shaddy]

I would argue people place too much emphasis on the bigger stuff and not nearly enough on details and execution. I like new stuff as much as the next guy, but GT had plenty of new stuff, it just wasn't executed well.

Look if we're gonna talk about creativity or lack thereof, it should be noted how much of DB took inspiration from classic Hong Kong martial arts movies. He takes an awful lot from outside sources.

Well the assumption should always be that what is done is done right, but it's harder to get into the nitty gritty details of stories that don't exist yet. And I would absolutely agree that GT's concepts were better but poorly executed, but that execution is more important than anything else. If DB isn't going to go crazy with different ideas and structures (and let's be honest, the things people call different in GT or Heroes are just lamer versions of what we've already seen with a new coat of paint), it should be the best version of the thing it's already been anyway. It's not like I'm saying "Dance party arc or bust" here, I just want a thing I enjoy. But I do think that, inevitably, Dragon Ball needs to evolve if it's going to break back into being something I take seriously as a story. No amount of Goku Black or Moro arcs will do that. If you say the name "Cumber" near me I'm going to call the police on you.

It worked for The Beatles and Metallica.

I don't know if this is sarcastic or not, I have literally zero knowledge on either of those. I'm just going to assume you're calling me a genius.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand you lost me. I have no interest in DB with other characters. That's not Dragon Ball. It's a story about martial arts. Why should any story not involve fighting? Hell, we've got those in filler episodes like the baseball one.

Is it really though? If you did a DB story where every enemy had weird powers that Goku needed to counter in a totally different way ala JoJo or Naruto, would it still count as martial arts? The complete lack of diversity or real thought in battles is the biggest issue with DB's fights nowadays. Even in the ToP, nobody's abilities really functioned all that different, and Goku solved every problem using overwhelming strength. It's boring.

As for the characters, those suck too. Nobody does anything anymore, but when they do, people complain, and it's because it feels like a pandering cop-out. People love Z, but they also constantly note that Goku is kept away from the fight a ton of the time. Super shows why this is, and it's because Goku is so fucking strong that nothing feels challenging. The spotlight is spent on other characters a lot in the stories people like the most, so where is the line drawn? We know we don't have to have Goku around most of the time to make a good story, we know he doesn't have to get the final blow on the villain (or at least, people like the Cell saga), so what's the limit?

Or hell, look at something like the Bardock special. Do you not consider that Dragon Ball? Because that's closer to the extent I'm saying here, and it's still pretty good. Bardock being Goku's father doesn't matter, that's the point, and it's still good. Can we do a story ostensibly about nobody we've seen that just happens to use Goku's iconography at various points and that makes it okay? What's even the difference?

So unique it won't be DB anymore... so, yay? If you are going to go this far left of field, it will be something else, so why not do something else instead of DB?

Because Dragon Ball is bigger than those two things? I read Jaco, and that really hits both of my marks. It's good! And... I also read it because I knew it was Dragon Ball. This cramped definition of what Dragon Ball can do is gonna kill it. If you're constraining what DB can be to a specific set of characters focused on a nebulously-defined "martial arts" you're just going to be stuck rearranging an already-small set of pieces in a different order unless you start retconning shit.

Yay commercialism. It's what gave us DB to begin with.

What the hell kind of mindset is that? If you're gonna talk like that, why do you even care if Dragon Ball gets better? Even if you say a desire for capital created the series, it's obviously a big part of what's holding it back right now.

[ABED]

Yeah, whoops. Wait, you have no knowledge of the Beatles? I figured everyone did out of cultural osmosis. Anyway, The Beatles became a HUGELY popular band, which I'm sure you know, but their early hits are very pop-ish. They could've kept doing much of the same and continued to be massively successful, but instead they decided to use their popularity to experiment with different sounds. They kept changing up their sound and it proved incredibly successful. Instead of falling into mediocrity, they remained popular and culturally relevant.

Is it really though? If you did a DB story where every enemy had weird powers that Goku needed to counter in a totally different way, would it still count as martial arts? The complete lack of diversity or real thought in battles is the biggest issue with DB's fights nowadays. Even in the ToP, nobody's abilities really functioned all that different, and Goku solved every problem using overwhelming strength. It's boring.

As for the characters, those suck too. Nobody does anything anymore, but when they do, people complain, and it's because it feels like a pandering cop-out. People love Z, but they also constantly note that Goku is kept away from the fight a ton of the time. Super shows why this is, and it's because Goku is so fucking strong that nothing feels challenging. The spotlight is spent on other characters a lot in the stories people like the most, so where is the line drawn? We know we don't have to have Goku around most of the time to make a good story, we know he doesn't have to get the final blow on the villain (or at least, people like the Cell saga), so what's the limit?

Or hell, look at something like the Bardock special. Do you not consider that Dragon Ball? Because that's closer to the extent I'm saying here, and it's still pretty good. Bardock being Goku's father doesn't matter, that's the point, and it's still good. Can we do a story ostensibly about nobody we've seen that just happens to use Goku's iconography at various points and that makes it okay? What's even the difference?

That's so vague. I don't know what you mean by "totally different way." It's a story about martial artists, it should involve martial arts.

I don't agree necessarily about the characters. Like what do you mean "nobody does anything"? Your comments don't hold water. Goku doesn't win the tournaments alone. Trunks (and Zen-Oh) kill Zamasu.

I'm okay with a few, A FEW, one off stories, but I don't want to see prolonged periods without the characters who make DB Dragon Ball. It doesn't follow that just because Bardock was good even though it didn't have Goku that more of it would be fore the better.

Stories aren't about iconography, they're about characters. What do they want, what are they willing to do to get it, and what obstacles will they overcome?

What the hell kind of mindset is that? If you're gonna talk like that, why do you even care if Dragon Ball gets better? Even if you say a desire for capital created the series, it's obviously a big part of what's holding it back right now.

Honest and observant and not just the shallow "profit-motive is bad". I care if DB gets better because that's what gets me to buy a ticket to see the movie in a theater. Toriyama flat out said he became a manga artist for money. And even though he wanted to keep DB a gag manga, it wasn't selling. His editor suggested combat/marital arts stories sold well, so he pivoted DB to a better selling genre and turned it into an overwhelming success. I think it's more than a tad reductive to say what's holding DB back now is largely money driven.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

As for the characters, those suck too. Nobody does anything anymore, but when they do, people complain, and it's because it feels like a pandering cop-out. People love Z, but they also constantly note that Goku is kept away from the fight a ton of the time. Super shows why this is, and it's because Goku is so fucking strong that nothing feels challenging. The spotlight is spent on other characters a lot in the stories people like the most, so where is the line drawn? We know we don't have to have Goku around most of the time to make a good story, we know he doesn't have to get the final blow on the villain (or at least, people like the Cell saga), so what's the limit?

Not only has Goku been sidelined throughout a lot of Dragon Ball's run, the emotional weight of several arcs has come from other characters. During the 22nd Budokai, for example, Goku is just another competitor. Sure we want him to win and get payback for what happened to Yamcha but Tenshinhan is the emotional crux of the story. He's the one we see trying to reconcile his upbringing with his own ambition and code of ethics. Here, Goku is a lot like Mad Max in that despite him being the protagonist, the story isn't actually about him. He's at the tournament for his own reasons as the story plays out around him.

[ABED]

That whole thing that people say about Max is BS. With the exception of Fury Road, he has an arc. The first film is about him, the second one is about him finding his humanity again, and the third film is about him no longer fighting for just survival, but a cause. So, no that whole line about Mad Max films not being about him is not true. What is it about that franchise that causes people so say things that are blatantly untrue just because it sounds profound? The plots aren't about him, but the stories usually are. Goku is clearly the protagonist and while there are arcs where he's not in it as much, doing that too much loses its effect, especially when he beats the bad guy, the story often feels like it's treading water until he arrives to save the day.

I like the 22nd TB, but I also like the arcs that are about him, like the next few.

[WittyUsername]

Goku is the protagonist throughout all of Dragon Ball, but it’s not entirely difficult to see why some consider the series to be more of an ensemble story, even if it technically isn’t. Goku doesn’t really change much over the course of the series. He never goes through any real arc or development throughout the entire 519 chapter run of the manga, while characters like Kuririn, Bulma, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Gohan, and Vegeta, are all different people by the end of the series, compared to how they started out. Hell, even Yamcha technically gets more character development than Goku.

Mind you, the fact that Toei decided to rebrand the series as DBZ at the point in the story when we’re introduced to characters like Gohan and Vegeta has certainly helped add to the perception that the latter half of the series isn’t really about Goku.

[Shaddy]

That's so vague. I don't know what you mean by "totally different way." It's a story about martial artists, it should involve martial arts.

Well, "martial arts" is pretty fucking vague in this series, isn't it? Shooting lasers from your face isn't a martial art, but you don't seem to have a problem with that. Chiaotzu uses mind control that is countered by math questions, how is that "martial arts"? I'm not asking for people to stop fighting, I'm asking for fights to be about more than direct physical altercations over and over again. If Krillin can beat Bacterian by farting on him I don't see why we can't have a villain Goku beats by being better at ping-pong or something.

Also, I still think you're being reductive about the series' purpose. I love the Hunt for the DBs and Red Ribbon Army arcs, but those aren't entirely constructed of martial arts battles, they're largely big adventure stories that happen to use those fights to solve problems at specific points. If you say Dragon Ball is a martial arts story from day 1, then a large number of chapters in the first part of the story are apparently "not Dragon Ball" and I don't gel with that at all.

I don't agree necessarily about the characters. Like what do you mean "nobody does anything"? Your comments don't hold water. Goku doesn't win the tournaments alone. Trunks (and Zen-Oh) kill Zamasu.

I mean nobody feels like they have any presence any more. Power scaling debates are completely ridiculous, but I totally sympathize with the feeling of disillusionment that came with the fighters selected for the ToP, because logically, why the hell should we care that Tien or Kamesenin are competing? If you keep them weak, it vindicates me for not giving a shit, and when you make them stronger, it creates questions as to where the hell they've been and how they got so much more powerful. And then it barely matters, since they each only get one episode either way. Do you not see an issue with that?

I'm okay with a few, A FEW, one off stories, but I don't want to see prolonged periods without the characters who make DB Dragon Ball. It doesn't follow that just because Bardock was good even though it didn't have Goku that more of it would be fore the better.

Well I didn't say "kill them off", did I? I'm not advocating for axing the main cast or spending tons of time without them. If there's one thing I'd love, it's for arcs to be shorter. I'm just saying we need to move beyond having things revolve around Goku, at least as much as they did in GT and Super. Having a short story about a bunch of different characters, only to then have that story intersect with Goku and co. would be a cool idea.

Stories aren't about iconography, they're about characters. What do they want, what are they willing to do to get it, and what obstacles will they overcome?

And what Goku is "willing to do" to "become the strongest" is the same thing every time, fight and train more. It's repetitive, and obviously it poses no problem to Goku, he fucking LOVES it. It's a goal that we'll never see him reach, because there's gonna be more fucking show until the franchise runs itself into the ground. So to support that, we need a lot of narratives about other people reaching goals that are as important to them as Goku's is to him. We don't see that very much.

I care if DB gets better because that's what gets me to buy a ticket to see the movie in a theater. Toriyama flat out said he became a manga artist for money. And even though he wanted to keep DB a gag manga, it wasn't selling. His editor suggested combat/marital arts stories sold well, so he pivoted DB to a better selling genre and turned it into an overwhelming success. I think it's more than a tad reductive to say what's holding DB back now is largely money driven.

But obviously the majority of people giving this series money aren't judging by the same standard as you, so why would you not want a change in the mindset that creates content for this franchise? Quality only matters in so far as a lack of it loses the company money, and that doesn't seem to be happening. So long as Dragon Ball isn't in dire straights financially it has motivation to keep doing what it's already doing. Do you not see an issue there, as someone who wants it to do something different?

[Cure Dragon 255]

I would argue people place too much emphasis on the bigger stuff and not nearly enough on details and execution. I like new stuff as much as the next guy, but GT had plenty of new stuff, it just wasn't executed well. Zamasu may look similar but he's a different villain than we've had to this point.

I wouldn't say he looks NOTHING like Kaioshin. The pinkish orange hue to his skin and the mohawk and the clothing all make him look like a Kaioshin.

Look if we're gonna talk about creativity or lack thereof, it should be noted how much of DB took inspiration from classic Hong Kong martial arts movies. He takes an awful lot from outside sources.

Once you have what is basically a guarantee that you'll make your money back, you should be experimenting in every way possible.

It worked for The Beatles and Metallica.

I want to see Dragon Ball just jump into a story with none of the main characters present. Or throw everyone into a conflict that revolves on anything but fighting.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand you lost me. I have no interest in DB with other characters. That's not Dragon Ball. It's a story about martial arts. Why should any story not involve fighting? Hell, we've got those in filler episodes like the baseball one.

you'll inevitably create something totally unique and great if you give it your all for long enough.

So unique it won't be DB anymore... so, yay? If you are going to go this far left of field, it will be something else, so why not do something else instead of DB?

Fuck commercialism.

Yay commercialism. It's what gave us DB to begin with.

Yay ABED! I always thought you were too serious but now I see you are hilarious and have an unique point of view.

[ABED]

On the subject of whether or not Dragon Ball has to specifically be about martial arts, it should be pointed out that the series was originally conceived as more of an adventure/gag story that loosely parodied Journey to the West. Outside of Goku’s fight with Yamcha, there weren’t really many moments in the initial arc where one on one combat was given much importance, at least that I recall. The focus of the story in its initial form was about finding the Dragon Balls, hence the name of the series.

Yes, and from 99 percent of its run, it wasn't a parody manga.

Well, "martial arts" is pretty fucking vague in this series, isn't it? Shooting lasers from your face isn't a martial art, but you don't seem to have a problem with that.

It IS martial arts in the context of this series which is a fantasy martial arts series. The laser beams are ki which is spiritual energy that martial artists can turn into projectiles used the same as a punch or kick. And martial arts are the focus. There are arcs that mix genres and have slightly different specific momentary goals, but the overall direction of the show is that of a martial artist

It's a goal that we'll never see him reach, because there's gonna be more fucking show until the franchise runs itself into the ground. So to support that, we need a lot of narratives about other people reaching goals that are as important to them as Goku's is to him. We don't see that very much.

And not reaching it is the ENTIRE point. There are always more hills to climb, more to learn, more to experience. It's like life. You never stop growing. Goku is and should always be the main character. Take that away and you take DB's identity away. I want to see other characters grow as well, but our main characters like Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, Vegeta, and Goku. We got that sometimes. Vegeta becoming a mentor or Gohan deciding to take a more balanced approach to his life.

[WittyUsername]

There are always more hills to climb

At this point in the series, are there really? We’ve officially been introduced to beings who Goku will never be able to surpass, no matter how hard he tries.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

That whole thing that people say about Max is BS. With the exception of Fury Road, he has an arc. The first film is about him, the second one is about him finding his humanity again, and the third film is about him no longer fighting for just survival, but a cause. So, no that whole line about Mad Max films not being about him is not true. What is it about that franchise that causes people so say things that are blatantly untrue just because it sounds profound?

People say it because it's a pretty obvious part of the films. After the '79 film, Max is a spectator. And he's not the only protagonist in that style. The Man With No Name from the Dollars Trilogy is another as is his inspiration, Sanjuro the Nameless Ronin. If you really wanna rewind the clock, you can even lump Beowulf into that category (at least until his fight against the Dragon).

[TheNingen]

It is what you said. "He's old and he don't look like Elder Kai"

Right...that's not me saying that Gowasu should look like Elder Kai. That's me saying that he doesn't look like Elder Kai...

Almost like there's a reason he doesn't...

Because Toriyama liked to create original designs back then and not make colour palette swaps like he does now.

Don't change context just because you got caught making a stupid point.

The context was you were saying Zamasu and Shin look the same. Then you bring up Gowasu and say he doesn't look like Elder Kai. You are likening the two as a comparison and ignoring that there's a reason they don't. There's nothing suggesting Elder Kai wouldn't look like Gowasu or whatever if he didn't fuse with the Old Witch. We've never seen an Old Kai besides Old Kai and Gowasu. One of them is naturally old, the other is old by fusion. We even saw he looked just like Shin when he was younger, but nope, that's certainly not a problem to you.

You're being such a reductionist with a clear lack of understanding. And it baffles me how you fit your head in a door with as massive of an unearned ego that you have.

[Thunderbird]

There's nothing suggesting Elder Kai wouldn't look like Gowasu or whatever if he didn't fuse with the Old Witch. We've never seen an Old Kai besides Old Kai and Gowasu.

A baseless assumption that was formed from the low expectations nowadays where you naturally expect designs to be colour palette swaps.

We don't need to see Shins entire life cycle to know that he was never going to look like South Supreme Kai.

We've never seen an Old Kai besides Old Kai and Gowasu.

Pell says hi.

Stop making excuses for lazy character designs when Dragon Ball Z showed five different Supreme Kai at one time that looked nothing alike. Just like they showed five different Kai at one time that looked nothing alike. In today's age though you'd accept a green tall King Kai because "Well he's the same race".

Like I said, years of uncreative designs have drastically lowered peoples expectations.

[ABED]

That whole thing that people say about Max is BS. With the exception of Fury Road, he has an arc. The first film is about him, the second one is about him finding his humanity again, and the third film is about him no longer fighting for just survival, but a cause. So, no that whole line about Mad Max films not being about him is not true. What is it about that franchise that causes people so say things that are blatantly untrue just because it sounds profound?

People say it because it's a pretty obvious part of the films. After the '79 film, Max is a spectator. And he's not the only protagonist in that style. The Man With No Name from the Dollars Trilogy is another as is his inspiration, Sanjuro the Nameless Ronin. If you really wanna rewind the clock, you can even lump Beowulf into that category (at least until his fight against the Dragon).

But it's NOT true. I've seen the movies. Are the people who say this the same geniuses who claim he has an arc in Fury Road? Max changes in the first three and that's what those stories are really about. More to the point, Dragon Ball is not Mad Max, and it's the better for it. It's very clearly about Goku and I can think of very few things less interesting than the title character being passive in their own story who comes in at strategic points in the story and be pulled along by the plot instead of being an active participant. Goku is an inherently different character than Max. Max is just looking to survive, but still a hero to his core. Goku is actively looking for ways to get stronger and strong people to fight. He's an active character by nature.