Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[Thunderbird]

If you can't execute well, the hook won't matter next time around.

This franchise has executed a lot badly and that doesn't stop people from still being interested in the hook for the next storyline.

The Broly example isn't a good one because people like the character. It's a canon version and slightly different, but the reason they like the idea of a canon Broly is because they liked the execution of the movie Broly.

Right "they like the idea". Before people saw the movie or knew next to anything about it, the concept of them bringing back Broly was enough to gain a huge amount of interest.

That's the most important thing, to come up with a good idea to draw people to it in the first place. They could tell better stories but if people aren't interested then it doesn't matter.

Also DB didn't become a success because of its idea. No one gave a damn about his Journey to the West parody.

Because that was a poor concept. The next arc was where Dragon Ball took off because it had a fun concept, a fighting Tournament. That arc was no better written, not in any real significant way, but it was more popular because it's a better idea.

Ideas are spun around here all the time.

And they are absolutely dreadful.

Tournaments are fun. It's a way to give characters the spotlight and show off their skills even if aren't the strongest.

Which is a cheap and easy copout. Actual good written stories would find ways to do that without the constant need of having Tournaments. This latest Moro arc despite not being that good has given time to characters like Roshi, Krillin, Tien etc.

One Piece does that all the time and that doesn't need to keep having Tournaments because it knows how to use it's characters.

It's also only for the first part of the arc, after a while, the Cell arc becomes a straightforward fight the big bad story like it always was.

First part of the arc? No, there was the whole thing with Trunks coming back. Then Cell coming back. There was that whole special chapter and TV movie with them in the future and the whole arc ends with Trunks ending the threat in his future.

Just because Crash wasn't as active didn't mean it couldn't have ended in a big game.

Aside from it making no sense whatsoever. That's like Ace Ventura ending on a big game because sports was so prominent to that movies plot. It ain't Rocky or Space Jam.

Canon Broly sounded like a truly awful idea.

No it didn't, clearly considering how much excitement there was for the idea. Canon Turles or Lord Slug is an awful idea. The idea of taking one of the most popular characters in the franchise and reintroducing him into the main story was a damn good idea that almost nobody here would have thought up.

That was $100 million+ idea. How many people could come up with something like that here? Nobody.

It wasn't original at all. The movie before it brought back a previous main villain but it was clever.

It showed how much they learned, how powerful they got, a clever strategy, etc.

Yeah and it's been done. How many more times does that need to be drilled in? There needs to be a Tournament every few years to see Krillin or Tien cleverly defeat some nobody character with a new trick?

Only for them to continue to lose to anyone worthwhile while Goku goes out on top each time?

[ABED]

This franchise has executed a lot badly and that doesn't stop people from still being interested in the hook for the next storyline.

It's also executed a lot really well, hence why people keep tuning in. DB is a known quantity, they don't need a hook. They've been hooked. DB isn't operating in a vacuum. The audience knows what it is. It just needs to be good enough to keep viewers happy

Because that was a poor concept.

Says who? You make it sound like whether an idea sounds good or bad is objective.

One Piece does that all the time and that doesn't need to keep having Tournaments because it knows how to use it's characters.

One Piece isn't a martial arts story. It's an adventure show about pirates. Completely different genre.

No it didn't. The idea of taking one of the most popular characters in the franchise and reintroducing him into the main story was a damn good idea that almost nobody here would have thought up.

To you it didn't. Making a movie character canon to appease fans who give a damn about canon, sounds great to them, but awful to me and many others. I'm sure plenty of people over the years have said they wished Broly was made canon. It's an easy cheap idea that plenty of people had thought of. It's not terribly difficult to think "I wish Broly was canon". The issue is execution. To me, it sounds awful because it is the worst sort of fanservice, but we live in an age where fans love being pandered to. The reason making Tullece or Slug canon is an awful idea is because they aren't popular characters.

Yeah and it's been done. How many more times does that need to be drilled in? There needs to be a Tournament every few years to see Krillin or Tien cleverly defeat some nobody character with a new trick?

It's all been done. But apparently the same formula of DBZ was enough to keep audiences riveted for years. And to answer your question, no it doesn't need to be done, it's just enjoyable seeing them show off some clever tactic or how they win against an interesting foe. The value of these characters isn't merely in how strong they match up to the big bad.

Which is a cheap and easy copout.

So was taking Goku out early in the arc, and yet, DBZ remains the most popular show in the franchise.

That's like Ace Ventura ending on a big game because sports was so prominent to that movies plot. It ain't Rocky or Space Jam.

Between this and the One Piece example, it shows you don't understand the concept of genre. Ace Ventura is a mystery/thriller/comedy. Bull Durham is a sports film. Your lack of understanding of genre is very telling.

[MasenkoHA]

[".

The Broly movie and its simple concept of introducing a canon Broly was enough to make people want to see it just based on that alone

You’re severely overestimating how many Dragon Ball fans give a shit about canon. Broly was a popular character and Dragon Ball z is a popular series. This version counting more than the last version didn’t give any more incentive for fans to see it.

[ABED]

I would argue the opposite. They care a little too much about canon, so something like Broly being part of the main story excited them. He's a popular character and fans love canon. I find it silly that Thunderbird thinks no one here or in the DB fandom thought of the idea of making Broly canon.

[emperior]

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=37279&p=1238230&hi ... y#p1238230

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=37374&p=1238988&hi ... y#p1238988

I guess Thunderbird would consider me a genius for coming up, not just once but twice, with the idea of Toriyama canonizing Broly in his own way.

Or maybe that was just a common idea many fans had. Because I am sure we can find hundreds of posts like mine.
Even a kid would understand making Broly canon with a new movie would have been an incredibly easy way to make a lot of money.

I bet Toei, Shueisha, Bandai Namco and all the other owners of DB rights celebrated the hell out of their minds when Toriyama approved the idea of making Broly canon and decided to write a new script himself. It didn’t even take much effort from his part to write that movie, and it went to be the biggest anime movie Toei ever released.

[ABED]

This all obviously depends on one's point of view. From mine in terms what I like out of stories, canonizing a character is pandering and sounds awful. Sure enough, I don't care for Super: Broly. From a financial perspective, which is mainly what Toei cares about, it sounded like a great idea because Broly has always been popular. Hell, even before coming to the US, he had three movies dedicated to him. Clearly he was popular enough to warrant coming back so often.

[SupremeKai25]

It offered a vast battle across time and space. That never actually happened with the Androids and Cell arc, cause all the main battles were located in the Present timeline and on the planet Earth.

It still boils down to largely the same thing. A villain shows up in Trunks' timeline should he travels back to get help from Goku. Yes the big difference being that this time he travels into the future but alone doesn't stop it from covering the same ground once again.

That type of story had already been told. Just like Moro coming to Earth with a bunch of goons while the Dragon Team defend it while waiting for Goku and Vegeta. There's different specifics but it's still the same core story from a few years ago with Resurrection F.

Also this arc introduced the first Potara villain in Fused Zamasu, which was very cool to see.

Then immediately after that the next arc had another significant potara fused fighting antagonist.

The same can be said about Z arcs then. The core story remains the same for most of those arcs, since they all involve threats that come from Goku's past and travel through space and/or time to destroy the Earth. Only the Freeza arc is the exception.

Just because the core plot points are similar does not mean that the overall story is identical or not creative. Also you can't just ignore the main villain. Zamasu and Goku Black are very different villains from the Androids and Cell, and that alone makes the two arcs quite different.

Your point about Kefla is moot. Her introduction doesn't take anything away from Fused Zamasu. At the time it was almost revolutionary to see a Potara fusion as the main antagonist, even though it was predictable that they would merge eventually.

[MCDaveG]

Depends story-wise or design wise?
From my personal point of view, I have felt that Dragon Ball wasn't finished yet after GT ended since being a kid, so I have imagined other stories and what was going on in-between Z and GT and what after... what were the stories of the characters after Goku left before Goku Jr. in the epilogue... what was the story of Goku, did he met a higher challenges and another god beings? The widely popular theory back then was that he went train with Shenlong and will return someday...

After few teases, Battle Of Gods and the new material gave me these fillings and answers. It disregarded GT, but we have got higher caste of Gods, God villain that was basically the rumored anti-kaioshin but not that from the interviews and Multiverse...
I am now feeling completely whole and think that Super was a perfect sequel to Z. I really felt as 11 years old again when I watched the show weekly and mostly, during the TOP arc.
I think that we have got nice expansion in the character gallery as well and for me, Zamasu is one of the iconic villains... well, he is basically the only new villain that we've got except for Moro.

I have some criticisms for the new material of course... as Super is basically set in the era of peace and before the Z epilogue, there wasn't much significant stuff to happen of course. Only existing threat was to Trunks timeline.
Also, as Ressurection F was marketed, the promo text promised something like SSJ is obsolete with Vegeta and Goku getting stronger and unlocking new potential with Beerus and Whis... with Goku's gi being simmilar to EoZ but orange, I felt like: ''Of course, he will master himself in baseform with no need for SSJ and that is why he doesn't show Uub a Super Saiyan form'' Sure, but we need to sell more toys and SSJ is popular, color his hair blue then as this is the brand new SSJ with God Ki! I kinda liked SSJ God as it was unique and daring design and it was making Goku lean like Beerus, looking young and it took me some time to buy the magenta color, but well, why not... SSJ Blue was just cheap and making Ultra Instinct making your hair grey was just weird. That for me was creative letdown... Well, I really didn't wanted SSJ4 or the fanfiction SSJ5 style of designs, but I liked the early idea of we are being past SSJ forms.

Also, not having changing Goten and Trunks and least to resemble Trunks in the TV Special or Gohan in Cell Games (as he went from the chubby boy to a teen) was another cheap stunt. Sure, Super happened right after Buu and their design from that arc is iconic, but why not change them, if you are not going anything with these characters?
Also, after finally bringing something new in Ressurection F, like making Kuririn a cop, Goku and Vegeta having new Gi's, Gohan's design etc. they revert back to the classic designs after one arc.

For me, Moro is now a stretch to this, unless it shows something groundbreaking, it just rides on the Super momentum...
I think that if we say that Dragon Ball bankrupts, it is simply because of being afraid to step out of it's comfort zone of being in-between episodes of Z... because, you know that everything is super nice except for Goku not being friends with Bulma for a long time and Gohan not training again.
I think that this shonen formula that runs in One Piece as well in every arc, that you have to overcome bigger challenge works when there is a risk, but why should I care when I saw the future. Because otherwise, the designs in Dragon Ball are still great. It took me time to accept the amalgam of old Z promo design with Toriyama's new one, but Beerus and Whis are great for example and the whole Tournament of Power, the Gods of Destruction, it was awesome to look at and little sad to see some interesting characters quickly go out of ring without much exposition. Also, I didn't like the rushed end to ToP and at least, we have got some bonus with Broly, but I am desperately missing Trunks, Goten, Gohan and Bulma and Chi-Chi being part of the story. Sure, there is some focus on side characters in the Moro arc, but it is now more like a Nostalgia trip for people, who just want to see something Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball has to finally step out of it's boundaries and go trough the Epilogue onwards. Bring in Uub with Goku... I think it would be such fun for Vegeta, to take in a next step in rivalry and taking apprentice - and he sort of did - with Cabba! Make it some funny contest in-between Goku and Vegeta school of martial arts, I don't know... I really wonder what happens after Moro and hope that Toriyama can surprise us again, because seriously, being a fan of DB since late 90's/early 00's I never had idea that we will ever get this much and I think that what we've got is better than any fanfiction - except for Multiverse, because that is something they did in Super

[Thunderbird]

Says who? You make it sound like whether an idea sounds good or bad is objective.

Says apparently all the readers that weren't interested in it, forcing Toriyama to introduce a Tournament.

One Piece isn't a martial arts story. It's an adventure show about pirates. Completely different genre.

No it isn't, they're both Shonen action adventure series. Like many of its nature they're able to give their secondary characters something to do so that they are part of the story.

As opposed to the cheap copout of having countless repetitive Tournaments. Dragon Ball has shown that it can get by just fine without them.

Making a movie character canon to appease fans who give a damn about canon, sounds great to them, but awful to me and many others.

But you're in the small minority so that doesn't matter. You can never make everyone happy. There's a lot of people that plain don't like Broly at all but that's not stopped him from being one of the top most popular villains in the franchise and a good and exciting idea for many.

Ace Ventura is a mystery/thriller/comedy. Bull Durham is a sports film. Your lack of understanding of genre is very telling.

You calling Ace Ventura a thriller pretty much killed that retort immediately lol.

No it didn't. The idea of taking one of the most popular characters in the franchise and reintroducing him into the main story was a damn good idea that almost nobody here would have thought up.

To you it didn't. Making a movie character canon to appease fans who give a damn about canon, sounds great to them, but awful to me and many others. I'm sure plenty of people over the years have said they wished Broly was made canon. It's an easy cheap idea that plenty of people had thought of. It's not terribly difficult to think "I wish Broly was canon". The issue is execution. To me, it sounds awful because it is the worst sort of fanservice, but we live in an age where fans love being pandered to. The reason making Tullece or Slug canon is an awful idea is because they aren't popular characters.

Yeah and it's been done. How many more times does that need to be drilled in? There needs to be a Tournament every few years to see Krillin or Tien cleverly defeat some nobody character with a new trick?

It's all been done. But apparently the same formula of DBZ was enough to keep audiences riveted for years. And to answer your question, no it doesn't need to be done, it's just enjoyable seeing them show off some clever tactic or how they win against an interesting foe. The value of these characters isn't merely in how strong they match up to the big bad.

Which is a cheap and easy copout.

So was taking Goku out early in the arc, and yet, DBZ remains the most popular show in the franchise.

That's like Ace Ventura ending on a big game because sports was so prominent to that movies plot. It ain't Rocky or Space Jam.

Between this and the One Piece example, it shows you don't understand the concept of genre. Ace Ventura is a mystery/thriller/comedy. Bull Durham is a sports film. Your lack of understanding of genre is very telling.
[/quote]

[ABED]

Says apparently all the readers that weren't interested in it, forcing Toriyama to introduce a Tournament.

Or they just didn't like the story. And he only knew it was a bad idea AFTER the fact.

Shonen isn't a genre, it's a demographic.

You calling Ace Ventura a thriller pretty much killed that retort immediately lol.

Would you stop doing that? It's condescending and obnoxious. It was a thriller, or rather a parody of thrillers, the gimmick of course is the private investigator is investigating the crime of a dolphin, but the tropes are there.

Dragon Ball has shown that it can get by just fine without them.

It's also shown that it does well with them.

[Thunderbird]

You’re severely overestimating how many Dragon Ball fans give a shit about canon. Broly was a popular character and Dragon Ball z is a popular series. This version counting more than the last version didn’t give any more incentive for fans to see it.

No you're completely wrong. As far as franchises go, there isn't many at all that care more or are more knowledgeable about canon than Dragon Ball fans.

If anything people care way too much about canon with this franchise.

The same can be said about Z arcs then. The core story remains the same for most of those arcs, since they all involve threats that come from Goku's past and travel through space and/or time to destroy the Earth. Only the Freeza arc is the exception.

An oversimplification seeing as the Saiyans just popped up and had no connection to anything we'd read in the story up to that point unlike with the Androids and Red Ribbon Army.

The basic story progression points are similar but the story surrounding it is very different and adds new layers to the story and the universe at large. The series was turned on its head when they introduced aliens. Broadened the series considerably when they branded out to other worlds. Then added a whole new dimension when Time Travel and multiple timelines were introduced.

The Buu arc didn't add anything to that level but expanded on things and did introduce something like fusion.

Then there's Dragon Ball Super which adds nothing of significance. After retelling movies, you had a simple Tournament that added little. Another storyline that was just a similar repeat of the Android stuff. Yet another Tournament. A movie where two Saiyans show up on the planet and cause trouble...again and now an arc that's basically just Resurrection F....again.

Also you can't just ignore the main villain. Zamasu and Goku Black are very different villains from the Androids and Cell, and that alone makes the two arcs quite different.

That's just different characters in an otherwise highly similar story that had already been told. Kefla doesn't take away from Fused Zamasu but the thread is about how their creatively bankrupt and immediately after finally introducing a fused antagonist, the very next arc does the same thing once again.

The show has no ideas. The transformations, the storylines, the ever expanding gods that keep cropping up, bringing back old characters etc. Nothing.

[Thunderbird]

Or they just didn't like the story.

Yes hence it not being popular.

Would you stop doing that?

Then don't call Ace Ventura a thriller. You'll be calling Die Hard a comedy next because there was a couple humourous moments.

It's also shown that it does well with them.

Because when the series runs out of ideas,which it clearly does more and more now, going back to having the umpteenth Tournament is an easy way out.

Toriyama has nothing left him in. He's done.

Battle of Gods which was the most creative since the comeback and that wasn't even his original idea. Resurrection F was just a more substantial retread of Frieza's previous coming to Earth with minions with revenge.

The Universe 6 saga was just a half baked Tournament. Only even had 5 new characters and 2 of them had to be a Saiyan and a Frieza clone.

The Goku Black arc was a retread of the Android arc except the characters go into the future this time.

Then there was yet another Tournament where Toriyama couldn't be bothered to design more than a handful of the characters.

Then another movie that had to bring back a former popular villain instead of bothering to create a new interesting one.

And now he probably hasn't bothered with this Moro arc and is a retread of Resurrection F. A retread of a retread.

Dragon Ball Heroes is more creative now.

[ABED]

Yes hence it not being popular.

But that wasn't the argument. You were talking about the importance of the idea.

Then don't call Ace Ventura a thriller. You'll be calling Die Hard a comedy next because there was a couple humourous moments.

I didn't call it a thriller. I called it mystery/thriller/comedy. It uses the tropes of those genres and twists them. Don't take my words out of context.

I notice you didn't have anything to say about my shonen comment.

Because when the series runs out of ideas,which it clearly does more and more now, going back to having the umpteenth Tournament is an easy way out.

While true in a broad sense, they have been generally executed well.

Then there was yet another Tournament where Toriyama couldn't be bothered to design more than a handful of the characters.

This I vehemently disagree with. First, there are like 80 characters fighting plus all the gods. It's better to concentrate on a limited number of characters instead of just throwing a whole bunch at the audience they won't remember just based on the sheer number.

[Thunderbird]

You were talking about the importance of the idea.

Yes it was weak. Weak compared to the idea of having a fun little Tournament.

I notice you didn't have anything to say about my shonen comment.

Just like you ignored the point at large to bring up something entirely redundant.

This I vehemently disagree with. First, there are like 80 characters fighting plus all the gods. It's better to concentrate on a limited number of characters instead of just throwing a whole bunch at the audience they won't remember just based on the sheer number.

I don't expect the guy to design like 100 new characters but he designed a small fraction of that amount. As far as the fighters go he designed Jiren, Top, Dyspo, Caulifla...not sure about Kale but a pitiful amount.

An easy lazy payday for Toriyama. Designs a few characters, yet again another Saiyan, then has another storyline involving a big long battle royale so that Toei can sort out the rest of the work.

[ABED]

It was weak because as it turned out despite the popularity of Dr. Slump, his name didn't keep readers' interest in his new project. He needed to change genres to more action adventure than gag manga. That's only something he could know after he did it. You aren't proving your own point.

Just like you ignored the point at large to bring up something entirely redundant.

What did I miss? OP and DB are different genres and one is a story about one person's journey to become the best martial artist he can be. It has different narrative goals. Your comparison is flawed. Goku entering martial arts tournaments is a great way to show his progress as a MARTIAL ARTIST.

then has another storyline involving a big long battle royale

There wasn't a storyline besides a single film with a battle royale where it wasn't the focus.

[Thunderbird]

He needed to change genres to more action adventure than gag manga.

Which is what made the original arc weak.

What did I miss? OP and DB are different genres and one is a story about one person's journey to become the best martial artist he can be. It has different narrative goals. Your comparison is flawed. Goku entering martial arts tournaments is a great way to show his progress as a MARTIAL ARTIST.

You seem to missing a lot. No, One Piece and Dragon Ball are the same genre. They're adventure action series that revolve around fighting. They just have different backdrops. One centered around super powered pirates and the other about super powered fighters.

One Piece does not need to have countless Tournaments to make use of its characters, show off their strength and be strategic. Dragon Ball doesn't need to do that either as it's shown in the past. Even the newest chapter of Super had Krillin defeat Yunba through a strategy.

Dragon Ball just has these Tournaments because they're easy cop outs and the writer isn't talented enough to make use of them aside otherwise.

There wasn't a storyline besides a single film with a battle royale where it wasn't the focus.

It's still just a Tournament. Portrayed in a different way, just like the Universe 6 structure was different from the Budokai Tournament but still just a Tournament.

That's how he's able to get around it.

[ABED]

They aren't the same genre. One Piece is a show about pirates with extraordinary powers, whereas the point of DB is the martial arts. They aren't in search of some external goal. Dragon Ball is a martial arts fantasy, One Piece is pirate fantasy.

Which is what made the original arc weak.

You seem to have forgotten your own point.

It's still just a Tournament. Portrayed in a different way, just like the Universe 6 structure was different from the Budokai Tournament but still just a Tournament.

That's how he's able to get around it.

And yet conveniently, that logic doesn't apply to the similarities of DBZ's story arcs.

[SupremeKai25]

You’re severely overestimating how many Dragon Ball fans give a shit about canon. Broly was a popular character and Dragon Ball z is a popular series. This version counting more than the last version didn’t give any more incentive for fans to see it.

No you're completely wrong. As far as franchises go, there isn't many at all that care more or are more knowledgeable about canon than Dragon Ball fans.

If anything people care way too much about canon with this franchise.

The same can be said about Z arcs then. The core story remains the same for most of those arcs, since they all involve threats that come from Goku's past and travel through space and/or time to destroy the Earth. Only the Freeza arc is the exception.

An oversimplification seeing as the Saiyans just popped up and had no connection to anything we'd read in the story up to that point unlike with the Androids and Red Ribbon Army.

The basic story progression points are similar but the story surrounding it is very different and adds new layers to the story and the universe at large. The series was turned on its head when they introduced aliens. Broadened the series considerably when they branded out to other worlds. Then added a whole new dimension when Time Travel and multiple timelines were introduced.

The Buu arc didn't add anything to that level but expanded on things and did introduce something like fusion.

Then there's Dragon Ball Super which adds nothing of significance. After retelling movies, you had a simple Tournament that added little. Another storyline that was just a similar repeat of the Android stuff. Yet another Tournament. A movie where two Saiyans show up on the planet and cause trouble...again and now an arc that's basically just Resurrection F....again.

Also you can't just ignore the main villain. Zamasu and Goku Black are very different villains from the Androids and Cell, and that alone makes the two arcs quite different.

That's just different characters in an otherwise highly similar story that had already been told. Kefla doesn't take away from Fused Zamasu but the thread is about how their creatively bankrupt and immediately after finally introducing a fused antagonist, the very next arc does the same thing once again.

The show has no ideas. The transformations, the storylines, the ever expanding gods that keep cropping up, bringing back old characters etc. Nothing.

But then yours is an oversemplification too of the Future Trunks arc, because it's not Androids arc 2.0. Yes, the crux of the conflict is the same, but the plot develops in a very different way and is much larger in scope, despite being a much shorter arc.

[Matches Malone]

I think a better question would be "Is DB too afraid to move on from its past" because since BOG, the franchise has shown that it still has new things to offer, but it also refuses to leave its past behind. With every new concept introduced, it falls back on something familiar soon after, resulting in a mixed bag of new and old ideas.

[Dbzfan94]

[

No it didn't, clearly considering how much excitement there was for the idea. Canon Turles or Lord Slug is an awful idea. The idea of taking one of the most popular characters in the franchise and reintroducing him into the main story was a damn good idea that almost nobody here would have thought up.

Are you kidding me? People have made up ideas for Broly to become canon for decades. Stop putting Toei and Toriyama on some pedastal when rehashing bringing back old villains is one of the easiest things to come up with.