Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:47 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:41 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:38 pm I’m not really sure why we’re blaming Toei for how the Universe Survival arc ended. I’d assume that the outlines Toriyama gave them specifically said that all the erased universes would get brought back.
Sure, and Toriyama's initial ideas for the Cell arc didn't involve Cell, or #17, or #18, or #16.

Toriyama's work in the original run was often helped along MASSIVELY by people around him making suggestions, and editing his stupider ideas. In Super, that's not happening; everyone seems to take everything he writes as holy text that cannot be changed.

If Toei had the balls to say "This is a bad idea; if we do it a different way, it'd make a much better story, with far greater stakes", Super would be a much better show.
If nothing else, I do like the anime’s revelation that the ToP was all a secret test of character. I think that helped prevent the tournament from coming across as a complete waste of time, and it did make me dislike Zen-Oh a lot less. It’s a shame that the manga didn’t go with that idea.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:49 pm

you like Zen Oh for making it a test of character?

I don't think DB has a lot of big moves left, if any. If it's going to continue indefinitely, it then has to work on execution and changing things up for the characters in subtle ways.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:50 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:47 pm If nothing else, I do like the anime’s revelation that the ToP was all a secret test of character. I think that helped prevent the tournament from coming across as a complete waste of time, and it did make me dislike Zen-Oh a lot less. It’s a shame that the manga didn’t go with that idea.
I get the sense that was a last-minute attempt at a save by Toei when the writers realised how shit Toriyama's planned ending was.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:51 pm

Except those aren't greater stakes at least not ones we care about, so it doesn't make for better storytelling. Whatever you think about Zen Oh blinking universes out of existence to make a point, it tied to the themes of the series. That is the sort of thing that excites me as a viewer, the feeling that there's meaning and purpose behind it.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:49 pm you like Zen Oh for making it a test of character?

I don't think DB has a lot of big moves left, if any. If it's going to continue indefinitely, it then has to work on execution and changing things up for the characters in subtle ways.
I don’t care for Zen-Oh as a character in general, but the twist did at least give the impression that he isn’t just some dumb kid who erases things for his amusement.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:07 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:31 pmHow doesn't it?
Because it isn't about an active player and was therefore not part of that characters journey nor a necessity towards the plot. So yes the poor example still stands.

A sports movie needs to revolve itself around a specific sport. Goku being a martial artist opens the possibility for many different things in the same way as martial arts movies.

A better example would be a movie about a cop having to catch a bad guy at the end because it can be done in a myriad of different ways.
Sure, DB has had plenty of tournaments, but the last full one was literally hundreds of episodes ago. It's nice to remind people that it's a story about martial artists.
People watching the show don't have amnesia, they are perfectly aware that the characters performing martial arts....are martial artists. Whether it's full of not doesn't matter because it's still been made part of the plot. The build up, the event, even matches are still there again and again.
It's ALWAYS the execution.
But not only the execution. Again, it doesn't matter how well it's executed if it's still just the same thing again. Each Tournament in Dragon Ball was more impressive than the last but still began to become tedious and could not afford to have been done again and again throughout Dragon Ball Z even if they were done better yet.
The new concepts are NOT ever what makes the story.
Wrong. The story begins with the concept, the premise, the thing the story will revolve around, the thing to draw you in from the start and make you want to continue with it.

And this is why Dragon Ball Super fails because it has no ideas left but to take old concepts and do them again in a different way.

Frieza coming to Earth with his minions looking for revenge, was done again.

Goku being a part of a five man team and taking successive battles against a rival team, was done again.

Trunks fought a dangerous enemy in his time and had to come back to ask for help, was done again.

Goku and his teammates taking part in a Tournament with people from other Universes to win the Super Dragon Balls, was done again.

The Dragon Team defending Earth from the big bad and his minions while waiting for Goku and Vegeta, was done again.

The show can do nothing but recycle past ideas and do them again. Nothing creative, nothing new, just the same thing with different characters and transformations slapped in there.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:14 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:45 pmThe few great things Super gave us is new interesting characters like Beerus, Whis, Cabba (more his relationship with Vegeta), the ToP, Ultra Instinct (minus the hair recoloring). Ultra instinct is great because it's an idea rooted in character.
Which is only made worse in that Super didn't give us Beerus or Whis at all. So they gave us the completely useless Cabba whose only worth is making another character more interesting. Yet another Tournament, technically not even the first Battle Royale Tournament the franchise has had.

And Ultra Instinct a transformation that tried to make out it was something more but really just boiled down to the exact same thing as the others. It's a power up that makes him stronger.

The whole automatic dodging thing being a mere gimmick that soon became worthless once Jiren started smacking him around. As well as the idea that it was supposed to bring a certain calmness and peace of mind....which was also thrown out the window when Goku got angry and just became more powerful to beat Jiren.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:19 pm

I don't think Dragon Ball is creatively bankrupt. There are still many instances of unique character and story beats within modern Dragon Ball content that a lot people have gotten a major kick out of. Are narrative premises recycled? Yes. But Dragon Ball as a whole has been doing this for decades.

You can have all the unique ideas in the world but it won't matter if its presentation is terrible. For example, the idea of the Dragon Balls themselves becoming corrupt from overuse and manifesting into evil physical entities that the main cast must confront is genius. The plot concept has TONS of potential. But not a lot of Dragon Ball fans talks about the Evil Dragons arc in GT -- especially when it comes the characterisation of the villains -- in a wholly positive manner because how that narrative concept was translated from paper into practice was awful. Conversely, the idea of the main cast fighting against an evil version of Son Goku sounded so overdone and trite. Yet Goku Black -- at least in the anime -- ended up being one of the most well received antagonists Dragon Ball has ever had because of his unique personality and fantastic dynamic with the cast.

But I do certainly think Dragon Ball has become too content in its current comfort zone and reliance on previously popular characters who already served their role and story and bowed out gracefully. Future Trunks had not right to make a comeback, let alone be the centre of a major conflict involving the fate of his timeline. And with his how arc ended, you could certainly make a case that his return in the limelight did far more harm than good with how it practically negated the happy ended he worked his entire life to strive for in the original manga.

At the same token, nostalgia can inadvertently have positive attributes to future potential narratives. Freeza's return in the Universal Survival arc was bewildering at first. Especially considering he was already brought back to life and killed off again in the same fucking movie/arc. And it was even more jarring that was brought back to life to replace a character that fans really wanted to see in a major story arc (Majin Boo). However, Freeza was so goddamn well written, that it not only rejuvenated the character and opened a hell of a lot storytelling possibilities, but it justified the existence Resurrection F, a film that pretty much disposable in the grand scheme of Dragon Ball's overall plot. Hell, Freeza coming back to life in the way he did is already playing a hand in future stories as the rebirth of his army essentially kick starts the plot for the latter half of Dragon Ball Super Broly.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is: Plot ideas are neutral. Everything comes down to execution. Just to drive home this point even more, both GT and Super involve a major plot point where #17 becomes a central character again. And the quality of the writing for both versions of the same character couldn't be any more polar opposite. Super #17 is mostly considered not a good character by fans, and #17 in Super is constantly referred to as the MVP of the Tournament Of Power by fans.

Now if we're talking about the aesthetic elements of Dragon Ball, then hell yeah, Dragon Ball could do for a major overhaul. I think Dragon Ball Super Broly was the shot in the arm the franchise desperately needed from a production standpoint. But Goku and Vegeta DESPERATELY need new outfits. And Goten and Trunks really need the age the fuck up already. And Krillin need to stop shaving his head.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:20 pm

You are getting too caught up in the specificities. It's a sports movie and the climax wasn't about a big game. It doesn't always have to be. They generally are because it's a nice logical climax. At their core, the stories told in DBZ are very similar, the plots are different in certain ways, enough so that it feels fresh, but what made at very least the Saiyan and Freeza arcs work were their executions. The Saiyan arc has some of the best fights in all of DB, and the Freeza arc feels appropriately climactic and the cat and mouse games are some of Toriyama's best writing.
A sports movie needs to revolve itself around a specific sport.
Which Bull Durham does. In this case, one player goes up to the majors and one retires. It's a sports movie with a different type of climax.
People watching the show don't have amnesia, they are perfectly aware that the characters performing martial arts....are martial artists. Whether it's full of not doesn't matter because it's still been made part of the plot. The build up, the event, even matches are still there again and again.
This isn't about whether they forgot them, but it's been a while. Christ, they didn't get bored of the same set up arc after arc of Goku being taken out early, the villain transforming several times, and the other stuff I mentioned. It all happened again and again. They had to see the formula unfolding time and time again. The ToP may have been a tournament, but it was a different type of tournament than we had seen to that point.

But not only the execution. Again, it doesn't matter how well it's executed if it's still just the same thing again.
Doing the same thing over and over plays into the execution and seeing as how DBZ used the same formula over and over, I might want to rethink your point about how much the audience can take before it gets bored.
Wrong. The story begins with the concept, the premise, the thing the story will revolve around, the thing to draw you in from the start and make you want to continue with it.
I feel like a kid going "no, you're wrong." Stories might begin with the premise, but ideas are relatively easy. It's the execution that turns Jaws from monster movie shlock to classic cinema. The thing that makes you want to continue is the characters and the connection with their story. It's like you don't understand people at all. Concepts don't interest people. They don't keep them coming back time and time again.
Which is only made worse in that Super didn't give us Beerus or Whis at all. So they gave us the completely useless Cabba whose only worth is making another character more interesting. Yet another Tournament, technically not even the first Battle Royale Tournament the franchise has had.
Frist, point - huh? Second, I find Cabba interesting in and of himself (bringing out an interesting side to another character is more valuable than being useful to the main plot), and third point, are you counting the "battle royale" in the Buu arc?
Dragon Ball Super Broly was the shot in the arm the franchise desperately needed from a production standpoint.
I'm ignorant about the specifics of animation, but I know it takes time and money to do quality animation. I don't think something like Broly would be feasible for a TV series. Regardless, I absolutely agree with your posts Lord Beerus.
The whole automatic dodging thing being a mere gimmick that soon became worthless once Jiren started smacking him around. As well as the idea that it was supposed to bring a certain calmness and peace of mind....which was also thrown out the window when Goku got angry and just became more powerful to beat Jiren.
That's not what it was. UI isn't "automatic dodging". It's about not thinking in battle and just reacting because the time it takes to think of a strategy and execute however small is still valuable time in a fight. What Jiren's offense shows is as fast as Goku has become as a result of UI, Jiren is still incredibly fast. And UI was never about being calm.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:37 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:49 pm you like Zen Oh for making it a test of character?

I don't think DB has a lot of big moves left, if any. If it's going to continue indefinitely, it then has to work on execution and changing things up for the characters in subtle ways.
I don’t care for Zen-Oh as a character in general, but the twist did at least give the impression that he isn’t just some dumb kid who erases things for his amusement.
I vastly preferred the angle in the anime with Tournament Of Power being a secret test of character, rather than manga going down the unintentionally dark route of an untouchable deity with a childlike mentality deciding to destroy several whole universes on a whim.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm

Wow, that is dark. It also lacks the link to previous arcs and doesn't feel appropriately climactic. It feels like everything in Super more or less was driving to the point about humanity's worth.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:00 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:37 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:49 pm you like Zen Oh for making it a test of character?

I don't think DB has a lot of big moves left, if any. If it's going to continue indefinitely, it then has to work on execution and changing things up for the characters in subtle ways.
I don’t care for Zen-Oh as a character in general, but the twist did at least give the impression that he isn’t just some dumb kid who erases things for his amusement.
I vastly preferred the angle in the anime with Tournament Of Power being a secret test of character, rather than manga going down the unintentionally dark route of an untouchable deity with a childlike mentality deciding to destroy several whole universes on a whim.
Pretty much. Back when the Universal Survival arc was still airing, I couldn’t help but feel like the whole thing was just really depressing when you stopped to think about it, and that Zen-Oh was an unlikable asshole. The reveal that the Tournament of Power was really a test at least made it seem like the whole thing actually amounted to something, beyond simply not dying, and that even though Zen-Oh is a childish god who no one can do anything about, he does at least care about something beyond his own personal amusement.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Thunderbird » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:02 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:20 pm You are getting too caught up in the specificities. It's a sports movie and the climax wasn't about a big game.
Why would it be? The movie wasn't about an active athlete. Dragon Ball is about an active martial artist. Bull Durham was about the Mr Miyagi not the Daniel Larusso.
At their core, the stories told in DBZ are very similar, the plots are different in certain ways, enough so that it feels fresh....
And now you're saying what I'm saying. It is has the same basic formula told in a unique way so it "feels fresh". Nothing about Dragon Ball Super felt that way because nothing about it was fresh, it was all taken bit by bit from other arcs.
This isn't about whether they forgot them, but it's been a while.
But it hasn't. Again whether it ran through or not, there was a Tournament in the Buu arc, the series finished with a Tournament. The first original arc of Super was a Tournament. Then there was another arc...then there was another Tournament.
Stories might begin with the premise, but ideas are relatively easy.
Ideas are the hardest thing to come up with by far. Coming up with a good original idea is hard. For a series like this that's 30+ years old, to come up with a unique and interesting idea is clearly very difficult seeing as the best they came up with in the past seven years is Beerus and Whis.

You ask 20 people here to come up with an idea for the next movie and most of them will be terrible. However you come up with a good idea then ask those same 20 people to work from there and they'll soon do it.
Concepts don't interest people.
Yes they do, this is what trailers base them selves off of. Having an interest concept is the most important thing because that's what draws people to the story in the first place. For movies it's what they call "the hook".

The Broly movie and its simple concept of introducing a canon Broly was enough to make people want to see it just based on that alone. Yet they could have told a superior story but with Dr Wheelo and nobody would have gave a shit.
Frist, point - huh? Second, I find Cabba interesting in and of himself, and third point, are you counting the "battle royale" in the Buu arc?
Beerus and Whis were introduced in Dragon Ball Z Battle of Gods, they weren't introduced in Super. You're giving the series credit for another piece of media. And no I was referring to the Bojack Unbound Tournament, many characters fighting on a platform that were eliminated when falling over the edge.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:27 pm

Fair enough about Beerus and Whis on a technicality. My point wasn't where they were introduced but how important they were. Given that those movies became the basis for Super, Battle of Gods might as well be under the Super banner.
Yes they do, this is what trailers base them selves off of. Having an interest concept is the most important thing because that's what draws people to the story in the first place. For movies it's what they call "the hook".

The Broly movie and its simple concept of introducing a canon Broly was enough to make people want to see it just based on that alone. Yet they could have told a superior story but with Dr Wheelo and nobody would have gave a shit.
The hook is important, but fool me once and all that. If you can't execute well, the hook won't matter next time around. The Broly example isn't a good one because people like the character. It's a canon version and slightly different, but the reason they like the idea of a canon Broly is because they liked the execution of the movie Broly. This isn't a stand alone movie. We're talking about an ongoing story. Also DB didn't become a success because of its idea. No one gave a damn about his Journey to the West parody.
Ideas are the hardest thing to come up with by far.
No they absolutely fucking aren't. Ideas are spun around here all the time. Everyone in Hollywood has a good idea. Few can execute it well. Everyone on the internet doing fantasy booking, monday morning quarterbacking or armchair directing are all throwing out ideas for what they think works. They do it with incredible regularity. However, that's not writing or film making. That's the difficult task. Trailers don't always sell the premise. Often, the premise is well troden. The movie might sell the tone or the characters. Perhaps I shouldn't say people don't care about ideas. It might get people to buy something they're unfamiliar with, but it isn't the thing that keeps them engaged or coming back.
But it hasn't. Again whether it ran through or not, there was a Tournament in the Buu arc, the series finished with a Tournament. The first original arc of Super was a Tournament. Then there was another arc...then there was another Tournament.
We didn't see the end of the final tournament and that wasn't the point. It was just a setting to meet Uub. And the other one was so uneventful. It gave the characters a reason to congregate but the level of competition with the exception of a single match was awful. We hadn't gotten a full meaningful tournament with our main characters since the 23rd TB. Tournaments are fun. It's a way to give characters the spotlight and show off their skills even if aren't the strongest.
And now you're saying what I'm saying. It is has the same basic formula told in a unique way so it "feels fresh".
But I'm not because the time travel elements might feel novel but by that point the formula felt so well worn, it didn't matter. It's also only for the first part of the arc, after a while, the Cell arc becomes a straightforward fight the big bad story like it always was. The time travel elements, just like space travel, and aliens, are window dressing. And just because the battle royale structure of a tournament was used in a terrible movie doesn't mean it was done in any meaningful way. Here, it's executed well with far greater stakes. It's the execution that matters.
Why would it be? The movie wasn't about an active athlete.
Just because Crash wasn't as active didn't mean it couldn't have ended in a big game. There's nothing inherent in the set up that precludes that despite whatever arbitrary rules you've concocted. Miracle is about the coach and it ends with the climactic game. Now lets move on, you're incorrect and your line of thought is mistaken.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:35 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:44 pm Wow, that is dark. It also lacks the link to previous arcs and doesn't feel appropriately climactic. It feels like everything in Super more or less was driving to the point about humanity's worth.
Yeah, in Chapter 28 of the manga, that version of the Universal Survival arc basically has the Zeno(s) playing chess (with the universes as the pieces on the board) and then arbitrarily deciding to get rid of some of the universes because there are too many. After that decision was made, Zeno(s) then asked Grand Priest how the mortal were doing in the 12 universes, and after Grand Priest gave him the update on how some of the universe are developing and how other's aren't, Zeno(s) then randomly decides that having four universe is good enough and to wipe out eight universes. The only reason that doesn't happen is because Goku literally arrives (inadvertently) at the last second to talk to Zeno about having a tournament between all the universes.

Seriously, the whole context of how the Tournament Of Power happens in the manga is VERY fucked up. It goes from a friendly board game to nuking universes for no justifiable reason.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:41 pm

You ask 20 people here to come up with an idea for the next movie and most of them will be terrible.
That's not as true as you make it sound. Anything can be made to sound good or bad. Canon Broly sounded like a truly awful idea. I'm critical of its execution, but it wasn't as bad as the idea sounded. Same with Freeza's return - sounds awful and while I'm still not over the moon about it, it's done well enough that I was suitably entertained. To use an even better example but one not DB - The Lego Movie sounded like a truly terrible idea and yet that movie is genius because of its brilliant execution.

Back to the tournament, yes there are a lot in DB, but I don't think that's inherently any worse than the formula DBZ used. I like that it gave individual characters spotlights regardless of whether they were "useful". It showed how much they learned, how powerful they got, a clever strategy, etc.
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by TheSeductiveTomato » Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:30 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:14 am We've had the introduction of many new characters and ideas but very few of them have been executed to their fullest potential
I agree with everything in your post but this is something Dragon Ball as a franchise has always struggled with. We've been introduced a lot of great characters with loads of potential but none of them ever live up to the expectations set for them. Tien is the best example. He had one of the greatest redemption arcs in all of Dragon Ball but he was quickly discarded and replaced with Piccolo as the rival main. At least Piccolo, Vegeta, and Gohan got to share the limelight with Goku for a while but everyone else is left behind. Even Krillin, who managed to stick around, is just there, unable to contribute anything. Poor character utilization has always been one of the weakest aspects of the series and I really hope it can be rectified because Goku and Vegeta, despite the latter being one of my favorites, are becoming quite boring.

Anyway, as I said, I agree with everything else. I enjoy what they've done with antagonists and overall story arcs so far, but they're playing it safe and I wish they could just grow a pair and do something fresh for a change. To save us all from Goku fatigue, it'd be great if they could work on a couple of spin-offs... like remake the Bardock special to rework it into the canon or a new Trunks special. I mean it'd make sense for him to have his own villains to fight and everything so let him defend his own timeline for a change.
You ask 20 people here to come up with an idea for the next movie and most of them will be terrible. However you come up with a good idea then ask those same 20 people to work from there and they'll soon do it.
Building on my idea above... so we finally give F. Trunks his own baddies to take down and introduce Androids 13-15 into the canon. Afterall, Trunks spent his childhood hiding from and fighting Gero's creations so he'd have to face the horrors of a gang of cyborgs terrorizing his timeline once again. Plus it'd be a great way to build on nostalgia and canonize more movie villains and Trunks will finally learn to stand on his own instead of going back in time to ask Goku for help.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:18 am

Lord Beerus wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:37 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:55 pm I don’t care for Zen-Oh as a character in general, but the twist did at least give the impression that he isn’t just some dumb kid who erases things for his amusement.
I vastly preferred the angle in the anime with Tournament Of Power being a secret test of character, rather than manga going down the unintentionally dark route of an untouchable deity with a childlike mentality deciding to destroy several whole universes on a whim.
It's in line with how the gods of most irl mythologies behave but is it really that much better than just having Zeno be a distant and largely indifferent god?

Dragon Ball has consistently emphasized how distant the gods are and how, while they lean towards good they aren't active in the world. That's been true since the Piccolo Arc introduced Earth's god. So why walk that back by trying to imply that no, the gods really are interested in the lives of mortals?
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KBABZ
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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:54 am

TheSeductiveTomato wrote: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:30 pm I agree with everything in your post but this is something Dragon Ball as a franchise has always struggled with. We've been introduced a lot of great characters with loads of potential but none of them ever live up to the expectations set for them. Tien is the best example. He had one of the greatest redemption arcs in all of Dragon Ball but he was quickly discarded and replaced with Piccolo as the rival main. At least Piccolo, Vegeta, and Gohan got to share the limelight with Goku for a while but everyone else is left behind. Even Krillin, who managed to stick around, is just there, unable to contribute anything. Poor character utilization has always been one of the weakest aspects of the series and I really hope it can be rectified because Goku and Vegeta, despite the latter being one of my favorites, are becoming quite boring.
While all that is true, the difference between classic Dragon Ball and Super is that the old stuff would at least give them one interesting storyline first. Tien for example has basically an entire arc and a half just for himself, whereas most of the introduced main characters in Super, with the exception of Zamasu and Broly, don't really have storylines for them. This is one of the major reasons why a lot of people wanted an arc in Universe 6, as that'd almost certainly be a storyline involving Caulifla, Kale and Cabba, so we can get to know them and their world through the storytelling.

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Re: Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

Post by ABED » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:46 am

KBABZ wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:54 am This is one of the major reasons why a lot of people wanted an arc in Universe 6, as that'd almost certainly be a storyline involving Caulifla, Kale and Cabba, so we can get to know them and their world through the storytelling.
We do get to know them through the storytelling. We see their personalities and their wants.
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