What is the story behind the Westwood Dub?

[8000 Saiyan]

Gotta love having someone act as if Funimation was the only company in America that could have done Dragon Ball justice. Give me a fucking break...

[10gigtriforce]

More than likely we would have gotten a better dub if Funimation hadn’t played nepotism. Pretty sure Pioneer had expressed interest in it, as Robo said it fit in Viz’s Wheelhouse.

About the only good thing Funimation did was eventually release subtitle releases. But most dubbing companies at the time that weren’t like Saban or Harmony Gold did that.

It would be very interesting to see if it had happened like that back then with either of those two companies getting it over FUNi, and the series done on the level of Ranma 1/2 or some of their other dubs which also had the Ocean Group cast. Pioneer's later dubs of Z movies 1-3 in particular showed just what they were capable of in having good scripts and everything else which made them so highly regarded even to this day.

personally i cant trust viz after how they did sailor moon's re-dubbing. easily among the worst voice acting I've ever heard. But ida loved for pioneer to get it. theyd have put out everything on laserdisc so we woulda had dual languages and subbed from day 1 and better than vhs quality.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

More than likely we would have gotten a better dub if Funimation hadn’t played nepotism. Pretty sure Pioneer had expressed interest in it, as Robo said it fit in Viz’s Wheelhouse.

About the only good thing Funimation did was eventually release subtitle releases. But most dubbing companies at the time that weren’t like Saban or Harmony Gold did that.

It would be very interesting to see if it had happened like that back then with either of those two companies getting it over FUNi, and the series done on the level of Ranma 1/2 or some of their other dubs which also had the Ocean Group cast. Pioneer's later dubs of Z movies 1-3 in particular showed just what they were capable of in having good scripts and everything else which made them so highly regarded even to this day.

personally i cant trust viz after how they did sailor moon's re-dubbing. easily among the worst voice acting I've ever heard. But ida loved for pioneer to get it. theyd have put out everything on laserdisc so we woulda had dual languages and subbed from day 1 and better than vhs quality.

Wasn't Sailor Moon's redub in 2013/2014 an in house thing? I know most of their 90's dubs were done better, again because they mainly outsourced voice work to the Ocean cast.

[MasenkoHA]

It would be very interesting to see if it had happened like that back then with either of those two companies getting it over FUNi, and the series done on the level of Ranma 1/2 or some of their other dubs which also had the Ocean Group cast. Pioneer's later dubs of Z movies 1-3 in particular showed just what they were capable of in having good scripts and everything else which made them so highly regarded even to this day.

personally i cant trust viz after how they did sailor moon's re-dubbing. easily among the worst voice acting I've ever heard. But ida loved for pioneer to get it. theyd have put out everything on laserdisc so we woulda had dual languages and subbed from day 1 and better than vhs quality.

Wasn't Sailor Moon's redub in 2013/2014 an in house thing? I know most of their 90's dubs were done better, again because they mainly outsourced voice work to the Ocean cast.

In California yeah. The problem with that dub seemed to be the directing more than anything.

Ironically, I feel like Funimation (who had been eyeing the license since like...2010?) would have been better suited to dub Sailor Moon. I mean modern Funimation not 90s/early 2000s Funimation

[10gigtriforce]

personally i cant trust viz after how they did sailor moon's re-dubbing. easily among the worst voice acting I've ever heard. But ida loved for pioneer to get it. theyd have put out everything on laserdisc so we woulda had dual languages and subbed from day 1 and better than vhs quality.

Wasn't Sailor Moon's redub in 2013/2014 an in house thing? I know most of their 90's dubs were done better, again because they mainly outsourced voice work to the Ocean cast.

In California yeah. The problem with that dub seemed to be the directing more than anything.

Ironically, I feel like Funimation (who had been eyeing the license since like...2010?) would have been better suited to dub Sailor Moon. I mean modern Funimation not 90s/early 2000s Funimation

thats right. they cheaped out on my 2nd favorite anime and pulled an early funi move and it had aboout late 90s funi quality. Its bad enough to do that in the 90s but in the 2010s? Nah no more trust for them. Yeah that may be blinding me to how they would have handled it in the past, but i still think pioneer would have been better just due to for sure having laserdisc releases since that woulda secure dual language/subbed releases from day 1

[MyVisionity]

It's not only Viz's dubbing efforts that are problematic, but their subbing as well. Naruto had this problem even worse than Sailor Moon. Maybe Viz was better in the 90s.

Yeah I remember when Funimation was supposedly after Sailor Moon before Viz, and it sounded like a decent fit. I wonder how much different their releases would have been.

The thought of complete Laserdisc releases of DB in the 90s is intriguing.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Wasn't Sailor Moon's redub in 2013/2014 an in house thing? I know most of their 90's dubs were done better, again because they mainly outsourced voice work to the Ocean cast.

In California yeah. The problem with that dub seemed to be the directing more than anything.

Ironically, I feel like Funimation (who had been eyeing the license since like...2010?) would have been better suited to dub Sailor Moon. I mean modern Funimation not 90s/early 2000s Funimation

thats right. they cheaped out on my 2nd favorite anime and pulled an early funi move and it had aboout late 90s funi quality. Its bad enough to do that in the 90s but in the 2010s? Nah no more trust for them. Yeah that may be blinding me to how they would have handled it in the past, but i still think pioneer would have been better just due to for sure having laserdisc releases since that woulda secure dual language/subbed releases from day 1

Yeah, something on the level of the DBZ movies 1-3 dubs they produced with the Ocean cast in 1997/1998. A Sailor Moon dub in that style would've been very nice because those turned out really good and are highly regarded as hands down the best dubbed in English DB material of the pre Kai era in terms of accuracy and scripting in comparison to the Japanese version.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah I remember when Funimation was supposedly after Sailor Moon before Viz, and it sounded like a decent fit. I wonder how much different their releases would have been.

They were definitely interested to the point of putting it as a poll option on their website. I remember being generally assumed they were going to get it that people started making Youtube videos guessing who they would cast with Laura Bailey being the favorite for Usagi.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Yeah I remember when Funimation was supposedly after Sailor Moon before Viz, and it sounded like a decent fit. I wonder how much different their releases would have been.

They were definitely interested to the point of putting it as a poll option on their website. I remember being generally assumed they were going to get it that people started making Youtube videos guessing who they would cast with Laura Bailey being the favorite for Usagi.

That's very similar to what happened with One Piece back in the early 2000's, because it was basically all but assumed that FUNi would be the first ones to acquire the license (to the point where people were worried and some even expressed fears as such in online interviews, based on their questionable decisions on the Z dub) before the whole ordeal with 4Kids happened. Then in an even more ironic twist of fate they ultimately got it once 4Kids dropped the license, so it effectively came full circle.

[10gigtriforce]

In California yeah. The problem with that dub seemed to be the directing more than anything.

Ironically, I feel like Funimation (who had been eyeing the license since like...2010?) would have been better suited to dub Sailor Moon. I mean modern Funimation not 90s/early 2000s Funimation

thats right. they cheaped out on my 2nd favorite anime and pulled an early funi move and it had aboout late 90s funi quality. Its bad enough to do that in the 90s but in the 2010s? Nah no more trust for them. Yeah that may be blinding me to how they would have handled it in the past, but i still think pioneer would have been better just due to for sure having laserdisc releases since that woulda secure dual language/subbed releases from day 1

Yeah, something on the level of the DBZ movies 1-3 dubs they produced with the Ocean cast in 1997/1998. A Sailor Moon dub in that style would've been very nice because those turned out really good and are highly regarded as hands down the best dubbed in English DB material of the pre Kai era in terms of accuracy and scripting in comparison to the Japanese version.

And thats why, even now, I'm bummed that both sailor moon and db didnt go to pioneer right off the bad. Faithful dubs, good acting, home releases of excellent(for the time) quality in both languages. Pioneer coulda been the big daddy of dubbing had things gone differently

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

thats right. they cheaped out on my 2nd favorite anime and pulled an early funi move and it had aboout late 90s funi quality. Its bad enough to do that in the 90s but in the 2010s? Nah no more trust for them. Yeah that may be blinding me to how they would have handled it in the past, but i still think pioneer would have been better just due to for sure having laserdisc releases since that woulda secure dual language/subbed releases from day 1

Yeah, something on the level of the DBZ movies 1-3 dubs they produced with the Ocean cast in 1997/1998. A Sailor Moon dub in that style would've been very nice because those turned out really good and are highly regarded as hands down the best dubbed in English DB material of the pre Kai era in terms of accuracy and scripting in comparison to the Japanese version.

And thats why, even now, I'm bummed that both sailor moon and db didnt go to pioneer right off the bad. Faithful dubs, good acting, home releases of excellent(for the time) quality in both languages. Pioneer coulda been the big daddy of dubbing had things gone differently

Indeed, although those and some of their others in that era (Akira.etc) showed they were no doubt capable of producing really great dubs in addition to having the original Japanese versions available.

[Zestanor]

You have to keep in mind that for various reasons, probably by edict of Toei, the target audience had to translate one-to-one in the dubbed adaptation of these shows. Because of cultural differences, and the way cartoons are watched (more a family activity in Japan than the “TV as babysitter” thing we do in the States) there are things in Dragon that are considered unacceptable to be shown to boys (and things in Sailor Moon considered objectionable to young teenage girls) in the West.

Sure, an accurate dub and sub could have been produced in the mid nineties and put straight to DVD, but then it would not have been marketable to the proper audience unless an edited dub were created alongside it. At the time, no one did that. You either got accurate dubs which were geared to niche adult audiences, or you got looser adaptations, which were “good enough” for all but purists, and were acceptable for the target audience.

Niche anime got dubbing companies a profit margin, no doubt, but properties like Dragon Ball and Sailor Moon could hardly be “wasted” on the relatively small number of adult anime fans. If a company more competent than Funimation had gotten the license, DB probably still would have been censored and edited. The three Pioneer DBZ DVDs are just exceptions that prove the rule. An unedited release here or there would be a bonus on top of the edited TV adaptation. Further, Toei was hesitant to allow subbed releases to exist of content they had not yet released on home media.

VIZ’s dub of Sailor Moon, by the way, seems to have been an afterthought. If people still haven’t seen Sailor Moon at this point but want to, they’re probably the kind to watch anime in Japanese. And if anyone wants to see the old dub for nostalgia, or superior voice acting (superior to the new dub), that also exists on DVD.

Anyway, these contracts between western companies and Toei, which we’re never going to see, probably have bizarre terms that are half the problem with popular English dubs done by Funi and Westwood.

See how I made the comment “on topic” at the end there.

[90sDBZ]

One thing that has always puzzled me is why the Westwood dub had additional edits on top of Funimation's already edited footage.

When CNX aired the Fusion saga in Funimation's dub, it didn't have these extra cuts, but the Westwood airings of these same episodes did. For example; Super Buu getting shot by the gunman, the part were he dives down his throat, and also the fart joke in the Time Chamber were all edited to varying degrees in the Westwood dub, but not at all in Funi's edited dub.

And it's strange how there was hardly any reference to death in the Westwood dub prior to the Fusion and Kid Buu sagas, which actually included it. I remember thinking it may have been due to those episodes premiering on the more adult oriented CNX, rather than Cartoon Network, but that still doesn't explain the extra visual cuts.

I've occasionally seen some Canadian fans claim these extra cuts didn't exist on YTV, although I haven't seen proof of this. If this were true it would mean these cuts were UK only, but that doesn't make sense as all the Funimation episodes that aired in the UK (54-107 and 239-260) had no extra cuts and included reference to death.

[Planetnamek]

I don't see skipping most of DB as incompetent so much as pure calculated pragmatism on Funi's part, I don't agree with that decision but calling the decision "incompetent" implies they didn't know DB existed or something like that, they knew, they just didn't think it had the same ratings potential Z did, so they skipped it.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't see skipping most of DB as incompetent so much as pure calculated pragmatism on Funi's part, I don't agree with that decision but calling the decision "incompetent" implies they didn't know DB existed or something like that, they knew, they just didn't think it had the same ratings potential Z did, so they skipped it.

No it was incompetence plain and simple. No other dub was that stupid. There was no reason to skip ahead to Z. The incompetence is skipping 1/3rd of the story.

Also it’s not that big of a stretch that the company that did dub the episode revealing Goku killed his grandpa, and then a year later had Goku blaming Vegeta, may not have had the brightest of people.

You have to keep in mind that for various reasons, probably by edict of Toei, the target audience had to translate one-to-one in the dubbed adaptation of these shows. Because of cultural differences, and the way cartoons are watched (more a family activity in Japan than the “TV as babysitter” thing we do in the States) there are things in Dragon that are considered unacceptable to be shown to boys (and things in Sailor Moon considered objectionable to young teenage girls) in the West.

Sure, an accurate dub and sub could have been produced in the mid nineties and put straight to DVD, but then it would not have been marketable to the proper audience unless an edited dub were created alongside it. At the time, no one did that. You either got accurate dubs which were geared to niche adult audiences, or you got looser adaptations, which were “good enough” for all but purists, and were acceptable for the target audience.

You act like it was either an uncut home video release only dub or edited and badly mangled script dub. A faithful dub that was edited for broadcast standards (basically what happened with Kai on Nicktoons and Dead Zone and World’s Strongest on Toonami) was totally doable.

After the second season, censorship was the least of the Funi dub’s problems. The episodes were dubbed uncut first and then edited for tv starting with season 3 anyways. It’s just those episodes had horrible scripts, unnecessary music replacement, and amateur voice acting.

I believe Funimaton did say Toei required the series to be broadcasted on television and targeted at the equivalent target demo(because toys) but all that meant is the series would need to be edited for tv it could still have a faithful script, solid voice acting, and the music intact. Again which we saw with the first two Z movies and later Kai.

[Planetnamek]

I don't see skipping most of DB as incompetent so much as pure calculated pragmatism on Funi's part, I don't agree with that decision but calling the decision "incompetent" implies they didn't know DB existed or something like that, they knew, they just didn't think it had the same ratings potential Z did, so they skipped it.

No it was incompetence plain and simple. No other dub was that stupid. There was no reason to skip ahead to Z. The incompetence is skipping 1/3rd of the story.

Also it’s not that big of a stretch that the company that did dub the episode revealing Goku killed his grandpa, and then a year later had Goku blaming Vegeta, may not have had the brightest of people.

You have to keep in mind that for various reasons, probably by edict of Toei, the target audience had to translate one-to-one in the dubbed adaptation of these shows. Because of cultural differences, and the way cartoons are watched (more a family activity in Japan than the “TV as babysitter” thing we do in the States) there are things in Dragon that are considered unacceptable to be shown to boys (and things in Sailor Moon considered objectionable to young teenage girls) in the West.

Sure, an accurate dub and sub could have been produced in the mid nineties and put straight to DVD, but then it would not have been marketable to the proper audience unless an edited dub were created alongside it. At the time, no one did that. You either got accurate dubs which were geared to niche adult audiences, or you got looser adaptations, which were “good enough” for all but purists, and were acceptable for the target audience.

You act like it was either an uncut home video release only dub or edited and badly mangled script dub. A faithful dub that was edited for broadcast standards (basically what happened with Kai on Nicktoons and Dead Zone and World’s Strongest on Toonami) was totally doable.

After the second season, censorship was the least of the Funi dub’s problems. The episodes were dubbed uncut first and then edited for tv starting with season 3 anyways. It’s just those episodes had horrible scripts, unnecessary music replacement, and amateur voice acting.

I believe Funimaton did say Toei required the series to be broadcasted on television and targeted at the equivalent target demo(because toys) but all that meant is the series would need to be edited for tv it could still have a faithful script, solid voice acting, and the music intact. Again which we saw with the first two Z movies and later Kai.

I'm with Zest on this one.

[Soppa Saia People]

i'm not trying to be rude but why quote a a fairly large post that quotes 2 other posts just for a one sentence "yeah this" ?

[Cure Dragon 255]

Because then you wouldnt know what this is. But yeah. Please dont do that Planetnamek.

[TheBlackPaladin]

No it was incompetence plain and simple. No other dub was that stupid. There was no reason to skip ahead to Z. The incompetence is skipping 1/3rd of the story.

I fully admit to being very cynical here, but I actually understand their logic and don't think it was stupid.

Don't get me wrong, as a fan, it's disappointing in in hindsight that they decided to do that. Trying to think from their point of view, though, I get it. Kids--which was the primary target audience of the show--have notoriously short attention spans. So, having already failed with the more story-focused Dragon Ball (although their super-early timeslots certainly didn't help), and FUNimation being the teeny-tiny company that it was at the time, during an era where there wasn't much anime being sold in bilingual or uncut format...I could see them thinking that they were in a "now or never" moment, and had to skip right to the more action-oriented Dragon Ball Z that would be more likely to entice the kids.

History would suggest to me that they were right. DBZ seems to be far more popular than DB. Ask the average person who Goku is, and the image that comes to their mind is usually not the little boy who trained with Master Roshi, but rather, the blonde, spikey-haired Super Saiyan who fought epic battles. DBZ got higher ratings than DB even during the Cartoon Network era where they were both airing on Toonami. Heck, the demand to air DB during that period came as a result of DBZ's success, not the other way around.

So sure, as a fan, I would have preferred they aired DB first, but considering the position and the era FUNimation was in, where they were in desperate need to get eyeballs on the property, skipping ahead to the more popular DBZ made little artistic sense, but plenty of business sense.

[MasenkoHA]

Kids--which was the primary target audience of the show--have notoriously short attention spans. So, having already failed with the more story-focused Dragon Ball (although their super-early timeslots certainly didn't help)

Worse timeslots and less market share than what Saban was able to provide for Z.

Plus it was made clear with Fukanaga’s begging Toei to skip Z they never wanted to do Dragon Ball.

, , during an era where there wasn't much anime being sold in bilingual or uncut format.

There was though?

History would suggest to me that they were right. DBZ seems to be far more popular than DB. Ask the average person who Goku is, and the image that comes to their mind is usually not the little boy who trained with Master Roshi, but rather, the blonde, spikey-haired Super Saiyan who fought epic battles. DBZ got higher ratings than DB even during the Cartoon Network era where they were both airing on Toonami. Heck, the demand to air DB during that period came as a result of DBZ's success, not the other way around.

And while DBZ would have probably always perform better a lot of this is because of Funimation screwing over Dragon Ball.

Of course Dragon Ball did worse than DBZ. Viewers had a perception of what a show with Dragon Ball in the title should be and Dragon Ball wasn’t it. Also it didn’t have fan favorites Vegeta and Trunks. Airing DBZ first did far more harm to Dragon Ball’s reception.

So sure, as a fan, I would have preferred they aired DB first, but considering the position and the era FUNimation was in, where they were in desperate need to get eyeballs on the property, skipping ahead to the more popular DBZ made little artistic sense, but plenty of business sense.

It’s almost like they had no business dubbing the show.