What is the story behind the Westwood Dub?

[Robo4900]

So... Getting back onto what we talked about on the first page, before we somewhat derailed...

If Ian Corlett said the reason the Westwood dubs got made was because Ocean retained some rights to record the show, and various evidence suggests that Westwood was essentially an arm of Ocean that would do some production duties...

Maybe Ocean Kai was produced by Ocean themselves. Maybe the recording rights they had didn't go away after Blue Water DB in 2005, and that's how Ocean Kai happened.

[Super Sonic]

I REALLY dont get why everyone is shitting on the new Sailor Moon dub. Its nowhere near as bad as everyone is saying it is!

I'm guessing for some folks it's like how "Battle of the Planets" fans hate "G-Force" with a passion, despite the latter being truer to "Gatchaman". Less censoring, no exposition bot, and Jinpei talks normally. Yeah, they gave the characters stupid names, but it was closer. Grant BOTP had big va names like Casey Kasem and Janet Waldo in the cast over some guys who might've been non-union might've had some guys' perceptions as well.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I REALLY dont get why everyone is shitting on the new Sailor Moon dub. Its nowhere near as bad as everyone is saying it is!

I'm guessing for some folks it's like how "Battle of the Planets" fans hate "G-Force" with a passion, despite the latter being truer to "Gatchaman". Less censoring, no exposition bot, and Jinpei talks normally. Yeah, they gave the characters stupid names, but it was closer. Grant BOTP had big va names like Casey Kasem and Janet Waldo in the cast over some guys who might've been non-union might've had some guys' perceptions as well.

Generally speaking though, the dub ADV did back in 2004/2005 has basically supplanted both as a true accurate adaptation of the original Gatchaman series especially considering it was the first time that all 105 episodes were dubbed in English because both Battle of the Planets and Guardians of Space only did a total of 85 due to most of the later ones but especially the tail end not being considered acceptable to run under both names respectively. Now G-Force i will agree was much closer in story and tone to Gatchaman, with not having the physical violence cut out and all the crappily animated BOTP exclusive Center Neptune/7-Zark-7/1-Rover-1/Susan/Ready Room footage removed but it still (second round of name changes and constant synth instrumental filler inserting aside) had quite a few things which made it not as faithful as it otherwise could've been at the time.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

So... Getting back onto what we talked about on the first page, before we somewhat derailed...

If Ian Corlett said the reason the Westwood dubs got made was because Ocean retained some rights to record the show, and various evidence suggests that Westwood was essentially an arm of Ocean that would do some production duties...

Maybe Ocean Kai was produced by Ocean themselves. Maybe the recording rights they had didn't go away after Blue Water DB in 2005, and that's how Ocean Kai happened.

Do Ocean have rights to anything? My understanding was that because they are a group of recording studios for hire and not a distribution company that recording rights wouldn't apply.

We know as late as 2015 another North American company like Bang Zoom can and has dubbed Dragon Ball independent on Funimation, which suggests it's up to the distributor or broadcaster to allow their dub to be released. In Bang Zoom's case they don't own any rights to the series, but as long as their is a willing broadcaster (like Turner Asia) and TOEI give them the greenlight their dub of Super can be aired. I'd guess the same applies for anything Ocean has ever produced for the series.

The actors can also be forgiven for not having all the details accurate as a lot of them don't follow the series as closely as us. Lee Tockar said on Twitter that Funimation had the rights to Kai in the US, and Ocean had the rights for the rest of the world, which we know is not true because no such exclusive "TV rights" or "home video rights" exist as far as the dubbing studios are concerned. Ian Corlett may be confused too, but it wouldn't hurt to Tweet him to enquire further.

[Robo4900]

So... Getting back onto what we talked about on the first page, before we somewhat derailed...

If Ian Corlett said the reason the Westwood dubs got made was because Ocean retained some rights to record the show, and various evidence suggests that Westwood was essentially an arm of Ocean that would do some production duties...

Maybe Ocean Kai was produced by Ocean themselves. Maybe the recording rights they had didn't go away after Blue Water DB in 2005, and that's how Ocean Kai happened.

Do Ocean have rights to anything? My understanding was that because they are a group of recording studios for hire and not a distribution company that recording rights wouldn't apply.

We know as late as 2015 another North American company like Bang Zoom can and has dubbed Dragon Ball independent on Funimation, which suggests it's up to the distributor or broadcaster to allow their dub to be released. In Bang Zoom's case they don't own any rights to the series, but as long as their is a willing broadcaster (like Turner Asia) and TOEI give them the greenlight their dub of Super can be aired. I'd guess the same applies for anything Ocean has ever produced for the series.

The actors can also be forgiven for not having all the details accurate as a lot of them don't follow the series as closely as us. Lee Tockar said on Twitter that Funimation had the rights to Kai in the US, and Ocean had the rights for the rest of the world, which we know is not true because no such exclusive "TV rights" or "home video rights" exist as far as the dubbing studios are concerned. Ian Corlett may be confused too, but it wouldn't hurt to Tweet him to enquire further.

We know that Westwood was considered something of a producer arm of Ocean's, so what I meant when I said that was that when Funi did their contract with Ocean for the Saban dub, which involved Ocean acting as a kind of local producer to pay the actors, they left in a loophole that allowed Ocean to do a dub produced by Westwood, which AB Groupe really wanted, and then eventually YTV wanted it too.

It would certainly make sense.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

For anyone that hasn't seen this
exchange on the BTVA forums some time ago.



Recently, Saffron Henderson recalled recording at Westwood but I'm not aware of other actors claiming to have recorded for Dragon Ball Z there.

Rob Bakewell began working for Westwood Media in July 1999 so he would have been there since the Westwood dub's inception. I personally emailed Rob myself, and from what he told me Westwood Media, also known as "The Factory" was generally a recording studio for musicians, mostly Rock n’ Roll, but also other genres.

In Rob's role as Talent Co-Ordinator he ran auditions, which the engineer edited based on his choices for sending to the client(s) to choose the cast. After casting, Rob wrote up the session contracts for every voice actor and cast the voice actors for all the small roles. Rob also worked as a voice director, still running the auditions but in this role he had almost no input on who was cast and casting was taken over by another company. All pre-production, editing and sound post-production for the shows were done at Ocean Studios.

At no point did Rob recall directing Dragon Ball Z at Westwood, but he said he did some work on it at Ocean in 2009, which we can pretty definitively say was Kai, not Z based on the timeframe and as Robo4900 suggested and was correct, Ocean produced it as confirmed by none other than Diana Gage. For anyone wondering whether or not Westwood Media are still around, Rob also confirmed for me they were not as the facility was shut down when the owner John McLean retired.

So ironically, it doesn't seem that Westwood produced the post-Saban Ocean dub at all, and if they were used as a recording facility it was probably only for a few sessions and for select actors (perhaps those like Saffron Henderson that due to personal commitments had to be fast-tracked). Although I've yet to find any reports by actors about Westwood in relation to Dragon Ball Z. Brian Drummond did seem to be under the
impression Ocean and Westwood were the same company but its important to note Westwood's name was brought up by the interviewer, not Brian, and as we know actors are rarely, if ever given much information on the dubs they worked on. In an Anime Time Machine livestream recently Karl Willems put forward the idea Westwood may have been "an overflow thing", that could mean overflow in terms of production workload, or, more likely recording backlog. In any case, as stated previously the evidence does seem to be in favour of Ocean being an ultimate overseeer or above Westwood in the food chain, so to speak.

As for how much of the Westwood dub was recorded at Airwaves, an employee of Ocean once confirmed to a fan it was around 80%, so the possibility that various recording studios were used is always there. Said employee is also how we know the reason the dub wasn't recorded at Ocean's main studio is because they were often too busy. Nonetheless Ocean did provide the project development, scripts, production, casting, talent coordination, sound design, video master preparation and mixing. This was way back in 2007 so much less likely to be distorted by time.

The Westwood dub was also almost certainly not created because of backlash from UK fans against the Funimation inhouse cast, as I have learned that Brian Drummond was confirmed to be returning as Vegeta as early as May 2000. By this point only the first 26 episodes of the Saban dub aired in the UK and it was still a few months before episode 54 (edited numbering) premiered.

NitroEX also uncovered some information that may explain how AB and Ocean came into contact. It makes a lot of sense.



Kirbopher is hoping to interview Karl Willems soon, so I say if people want any unanswered questions about the Westwood dub answered fire them his way, although it's been a long time so naturally it's easy to forget the finer details. I also asked on the livestream last night and directing Dragon Ball Z at Airwaves didn't sound familiar to Karl, he recalled doing Kai more, and even season 2 of the Saban dub, which is even further back. I'm also going to try make enquiries to see if I can find out anything else.

[Tian]

NitroEX also uncovered some information that may explain how AB and Ocean came into contact. It makes a lot of sense.

I don't think price was a factor but deadlines.

As some of us know, AB Groupe already had a history of rushing dubs for this franchise:
- They made the French dub team record multiple episodes a day.
- As David Gasman (Goku's VA and dialogue director) stated, the Big Green dub cast "just showed up and ripped through" the movies because AB was "in a hurry".

So it is likely that AB and FUNimation had a disagreement over the deadlines of production and exporting of episodes, and as result, AB had to turn to Ocean (and its sub-contracted recording studios) to record the remaining batch of episodes for European distribution under AB's rushed schedule.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think price was a factor but deadlines.

It was a combination of the two, but the fact that the short-lived CNX premiered the Fusion saga with Funimation's dub in the UK and Ireland on October 2002 and after a certain number of reruns switched to the Ocean/Westwood dub equivalents and never looked back indicates that Turner UK or AB Groupe were intent on phasing out the Funimation dubbed episodes that Ocean also dubbed. Once the switch back to Westwood happened all further reruns of the Fusion saga throughout 2003 on CNX and from 2003 to 2005 on the new Toonami channel (that launched once CNX shut down) featured that dub.

It's not known at what point exactly the switch back to the Westwood dub happened, fan recollections vary, some say Funimation episodes aired early mornings and afternoons with the Ocean dubbed episodes in the evening, others say it was only one run of Funimation, all I remember is Gohan saying "Fight you. No. I wanna kill you" to Super Boo, which differs from the Westwood line where he says "Fight you. I'm gonna destroy you" and there being current episodes with the Faulconer Productions score on at the time, so I'm sure I saw the Funimation episodes when they aired, I just don't know when they stopped. The only surviving forum thread from the time I can find is this one, which is a month and a half since CNX's debut, where the OP is told the Ocean voices hadn't returned for the Boo arc episodes but that they could be heard in the Dutch airings.

What complicates matters even further is that the switch from Westwood to Funimation happened in the Netherlands too, and were evidently even crazier than what happened on CNX, although luckily ThunderPX has compiled a date guide for each episode (both premiers and reruns) from newspaper listings, which I've cross checked with UK airdates that give us a better understanding of what went down with the distribution of both dubs at the time.

As reports from an old fansite show the Dutch channel Yorin has an Ocean episode (which would have been 211 edited) airing on October 8, 2002, with a Funimation episode on November 14, 2002 (which going by the Dutch dates guide I was given would be 243 edited), this would have been the day after the Fusion saga (which ended at episode 260) completed its first run on CNX with the Funimation dub, the only explanation for this I can think of is that Yorin only had up to episode 242 with Westwood by that point and CNX had the remaining episodes, although in the same post that person updates saying Ocean aired again. This post was made on November 15, 2002 at which point Yorin would have been airing episode 244, so maybe that was the day they received the Ocean dubbed episodes and they had the Funimation dub of episode 243 there as a backup for November 14th.

I've also talked to other Dutch fans recently who recall the switch to Funimation happening sometime in the Cell arc. Cartoon Network UK aired the entirety of the Cell arc with Westwood but didn't begin airing the Imperfect Cell stuff until at least June 2002. The Netherlands started slightly earlier and the first episode of that arc was shown on May 7, 2001 and finished that arc the same date the following month. Cartoon Network UK may have been waiting for the Westwood dubbed episodes to be available to premier the Imperfect Cell episodes. If they weren't available at the time it would explain why the Netherlands switched to Funimation at that point.

What would be really telling is if any Dutch fans can recall did the episodes that Funimation dubbed that had Westwood equivalents remain in reruns like Canada (which never aired the first 60 episodes of the Westwood dub despite it being produced there) or were they phased out like the UK and never to be seen again once a Westwood option was available. It stands to reason if the Westwood dub was created to offer Europe a cheaper alternative than paying royalties for the Faulconer Productions score that they would become the definitive dub airing provided all parties involved felt they could recoup the money spent from double dipping on episodes from reruns (which Cartoon Network/Turner UK clearly did).

Whether or not AB rushed Ocean to get the Westwood episodes recorded or produced is not known. From what Dark Vegeta-Sama has heard from reading (now defunct) fansites back in the day is that Ocean were in a hurry to get the Westwood dub off the ground to sell to international markets before Funimation could get there, and that's why they started at episode 108 instead of 54.

[Tian]

As reports from an old fansite show the Dutch channel Yorin has an Ocean episode (which would have been 211 edited) airing on October 8, 2002, with a Funimation episode on November 14, 2002 (which going by the Dutch dates guide I was given would be 243 edited), this would have been the day after the Fusion saga (which ended at episode 260) completed its first run on CNX with the Funimation dub, the only explanation for this I can think of is that Yorin only had up to episode 242 with Westwood by that point and CNX had the remaining episodes, although in the same post that person updates saying Ocean aired again. This post was made on November 15, 2002 at which point Yorin would have been airing episode 244, so maybe that was the day they received the Ocean dubbed episodes and they had the Funimation dub of episode 243 there as a backup for November 14th.

I've also talked to other Dutch fans recently who recall the switch to Funimation happening sometime in the Cell arc. Cartoon Network UK aired the entirety of the Cell arc with Westwood but didn't begin airing the Imperfect Cell stuff until at least June 2002. The Netherlands started slightly earlier and the first episode of that arc was shown on May 7, 2001 and finished that arc the same date the following month. Cartoon Network UK may have been waiting for the Westwood dubbed episodes to be available to premier the Imperfect Cell episodes. If they weren't available at the time it would explain why the Netherlands switched to Funimation at that point.

Huh, the broadcast history of this dub is crazier than I thought.

While I was aware that in some countries' airings they did switch back from Westwood to FUNimation to viceversa, I wasn't aware it was an usual thing.

It stands to reason if the Westwood dub was created to offer Europe a cheaper alternative than paying royalties for the Faulconer Productions score that they would become the definitive dub airing provided all parties involved felt they could recoup the money spent from double dipping on episodes from reruns (which Cartoon Network/Turner UK clearly did).

That's a good point. I forgot the royalties are a thing (and a really annoying thing) in international distribution.

Although, I doubt the royalties were the only reason why Ocean decided to recycle scores from their other dubs and productions. The guys were in a rush, so it's pretty understandable they just grabbed whatever they got instead of looking for another composer.

Whether or not AB rushed Ocean to get the Westwood episodes recorded or produced is not known. From what Dark Vegeta-Sama has heard from reading (now defunct) fansites back in the day is that Ocean were in a hurry to get the Westwood dub off the ground to sell to international markets before Funimation could get there, and that's why they started at episode 108 instead of 54.

Well, I can't guarantee that the rush was 100% AB's doing but it wouldn't be weird to suggest they may have had some hand on it.

After all, we're talking about the company that has even given what they "haven't got" to keep their deals with foreign networks like the times where they gave Japanese masters for Spain (some episodes of Z, the whole GT series) and Poland (latter part of GT) because there wasn't French dub of those available at the time.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Huh, the broadcast history of this dub is crazier than I thought.

While I was aware that in some countries' airings they did switch back from Westwood to FUNimation to viceversa, I wasn't aware it was an usual thing.

I know right? To be fair it was only recently I learned about the switch from Westwood back to Funimation in the Netherlands. I have personal experience of the CNX situation and its been well documented by fans on forums such as this, but not as much for the Netherlands from what I recall.

Although, I doubt the royalties were the only reason why Ocean decided to recycle scores from their other dubs and productions. The guys were in a rush, so it's pretty understandable they just grabbed whatever they got instead of looking for another composer.

Oddly enough it's a common thing for shows Ocean worked on. LBX used tracks heard in the Westwood dub and Monster Rancher even reused some Megaman tracks. Ocean also apparently dubbed a pilot for Magic Knight Rayearth and created an opening using a track later heard in the Westwood dub although, like their Kai dub from what I heard a TV deal fell through so it went unreleased. Nonetheless the music is something Ocean has a royalty-free license to that they probably paid Tom Keenlyside, John Mitchell and David Iris a one-time fee for. I know back in the 90s and into the 2000s dubbing and voice work in general was booming in Vancouver so Ocean probably seen it as a worthwhile investment to cut time and costs when they had their work cut out for them.

Well, I can't guarantee that the rush was 100% AB's doing but it wouldn't be weird to suggest they may have had some hand on it.

Definitely not. I always thought the series aired in its entirety in quite a short space of time in the UK and Ireland compared to other long running series I grew up with that had 40-52 episode seasons. The first 107 episodes of Dragon Ball Z aired in less than a year, then the remaining 169 ran between April 2001 and March 2003. GT ran between March and June the same year, although it was the shortest series. Original Dragon Ball was the quickest though, as all 153 episodes aired between October 2003 and November 2004. All these shows with their respective dubs premiered and concluded earlier than Canada despite them being produced in Canada.

So AB Groupe may have had other issues with Funimation that led to them always having a preference for buying the Canadian dubbed episodes where possible. Something that may support there being disputes between the two companies further is the Finnish airings of Dragon Ball Z on SubTV. They aired the Saban, Funi inhouse and Westwood dubs like other English-speaking territories but only began airing the Westwood dub in either late 2004 or late 2005. A Finnish fan here has also confirmed reruns always started from when Goku meets Trunks, which would explain a lot, as it would mean at a certain point, likely in late 2005 AB Groupe stopped distributing episodes dubbed by Funimation altogether. I also found a thread from early 2006 where the OP seems under the impression because SubTV didn't have a lot of money for anime they faced difficulties bringing back Dragon Ball Z. If true it would explain why SubTV would have always restarted from the episode Goku meets Trunks as they may have had to make compromises to do so, which may have included not renewing their license to the Saban and inhouse dubbed episodes up to that point, both of which required paying royalties to Funimation. I actually may make another Reddit thread to confirm this specific detail with more Finnish fans who may remember.

By this point Dragon Ball left the air in all other European countries that aired it in English, so assuming SubTV started from the episode Goku meets Trunks (which is 108 edited and is the first episode of the Westwood dub) either the company themselves or AB Groupe wouldn't have had to renew their license to the Funimation dub as the Westwood dub was independent of Funimation. SubTV even said in a press release dated August 2005 they purchased 168 new episodes. The press release said the new episodes would be starting from Episode 124 (Unwelcome Discovery), which must have been a clerical error or oversight because that was more episodes than the series had. Interestingly the Westwood dub had 169 episodes, so if SubTV bought 168 it would explain why they aired the final episode with the German dub and claimed no more English-dubbed episodes were available as they must have been in a panic realizing they had Episode 275 ending on a cliffhanger so just decided to pick up whatever dub they could get the final episode for cheapest.

Getting back to the UK, maybe it was a similar case as Canada where YTV was getting tapes too late and then switched to Westwood after getting fed up. Alternatively the deals AB and Ocean made could have specified AB had to buy a certain number of episodes from them with both companies agreeing on the costs. We'll probably never know for sure though. Both original Dragon Ball and GT were meant to be dubbed in Vancouver originally. Most fans assume because the union rules in British Columbia were being changed in Vancouver Ken Morrison moved the production to Calgary to cut costs by paying the actors less than he legally had to, but it's not unreasonable to think Blue Water was also set up because all the recording houses Ocean used had been overbooked another one was needed and there was no vacant properties at the time in Vancouver fit for that purpose. I've heard Blue Water at one point set up another studio in Edmonton, so there must have been a need to spread out work even more. Although voiceover work in Canada had calmed down by the 2010s (unlike the Westwood dub, which the main Ocean studio was generally fully booked for, apparently Kai was mostly recorded at Ocean itself) so there was probably no need to hire out external venues anymore.

I suppose its possible at the time AB Groupe feared because of how relatively late Dragon Ball came to the UK and Ireland they had limited time to capitalize on the brand, especially since it was already quite an old show then. AB even hastily released toys of Boo, Janemba, Tapion, Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Gotenks to the UK/Irish market when the Cell arc was airing and despite movies 12 and 13 not being released until Manga UK's Blu-Rays in 2018. We also had a sticker book filled with misinformation such as Goku and Tullece being brothers. I've also heard reports from Dutch fans about Beckett magazines and such spreading misinformation so quality control did seem to be lacking within AB, which could easily have been the result of difficulty meeting deadlines. Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Digimon and Beyblade were all fads that fluctuated in popularity at the time. Of course all four series had resurgences years later but I don't think anyone could have expected it, I certainly didn't. I always felt Dragon Ball had something special though and had the potential to be more than a mere fad.