What do you want with Broly?

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MasenkoHA
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:17 am
It doesn't really fit into the "dark and gritty" mold of the 90s books.
The one where Joker paralyzes Barbara Gordon and undresses her and takes pictures then strips her father down naked and tries to drive him insane? Also his pregnant girlfriend died in a freak accident and he's bullied into a crime syndicate that results in him becoming the Joker.

That didn't fit into the dark and gritty mold because uh um uh reasons?

I don't even think it was supposed to be in-continuity originally. Watchmen and Dark Knight were far more popular releases and naturally would have had a greater effect on the comic book industry.
Dark Knight Returns wasn't in-continuity either so irrelevant.

Also considering how many goddamn movies and tv series can't resist going to Killing Joke for inspiration when doing a Joker story it's pretty impactful.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:21 am

I don’t know how anyone can claim that TKJ isn’t dark and gritty or that it wasn’t widely influential. As far as stories involving the Joker are concerned, its influence is undeniable, and regardless of Alan Moore’s initial intention of making it a standalone story, it served as the basis for Barbara Gordon taking on the identity of Oracle.

What specifically did Watchmen influence? Sure, it’s popular, but I can’t think of any particular impact it had on superhero stories in the 90s. As much as writers like Geoff Johns like to blame it for superhero stories becoming unnecessarily dark, that completely ignores that Alan Moore has pretty much always been open about the fact that it was supposed to be a satirical deconstruction that’s meant to highlight how awful superheroes would be in a real world setting.

Anyway, to circle this back to Dragon Ball, I don’t think the series would lose popularity if it went in a more dark and serious direction. Hell, that’s kind of what it did for much of its original run, before the Boo arc brought back a lot of the silliness of the early arcs.

As for Broly specifically, his original backstory actually was pretty dark and brutal, but it got toned down somewhat with the most recent movie. Frankly, I don’t think there’d be many “adult” stories to tell with him at this point. I suppose a prequel about his time with Paragus on Vampa could maybe work, but I don’t know if I’d personally be interested in that.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:24 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:42 pm
Disney isn't a franchise. Dragon Ball is. Disney has a bunch of different franchises, but it's not one in and of itself.
he comic bubble burst in the '90s had nothing to do with the stories growing up and fans bucking back against it, and entirely to do with them becoming a speculative market like Beanie Babies were around the same time and mismanagement from the publishers.
It was a number of different factors. I didn't feel like writing out the definitive causes of it, but it definitely did burst in part because people realized the grimdark stuff sucked and the next generation of fans weren't coming along to fill the void. The stories sucked and people finally woke up to that fact. I don't need it explained to me, I was there.
You say "owed," like anyone is making demands or some shit.
Oh if only they weren't. Remember that dumb kerfuffle over the redisign of the new Thundercats series? I swear to god, I kept seeing a bunch of people claim how much more mature the old show was, and damned this one as being for kids. The same thing happened when Teen Titans became Teen Titans Go!
You keep acting like Pokemon is just the games and that's the only aspect of the franchise that matters, but it's not.
It's the one that matters, it's the one that drives the bring, and is the most lucrative. The anime was a promotional tool because people like stories, but the stories are still of secondary concern to where the real money is. So the anime is stagnating since 2018? That's a two decade long run, and nothing to sneeze at. Nothing gold can stay.

Anyway, I don't expect or want a BoJack Horseman surprising level of depth to Broly's story. It's a different type of story. What more is there to say on the issue? Maybe if it were a character I gave a damn about, it would be different, but I don't.
Fair enough. It doesn't change the main point, companies that make content for kids have proven time and time again that they can make more bank expanding to entertain different age ranges instead of catering solely to one, especially when the concepts of whatever you've made are already drawing unintended crowds. There's no reason to say "absolutely not, it should never happen," especially when a brand/franchise/series is actively trying to find a way to run forever.

Meanwhile, some characters from the 90s (though a sliver of the characters introduced, and to vastly varying degrees) who specifically to cater to older audiences like Deadpool and Spawn are still around and popular today (Deadpool having 2 of the 3 highest grossing R rated films of all time, only being beat out by Joker and Spawn making an appearance in MK11 and seemingly staging a comeback)

I'd have agreed with you on the Teen Titans thing, but DC mishandled the hell out of that and reaped well deserved backlash. It's not necessarily the problem that Teen Titans Go! is made for kids that made the fanbases so hostile in the first place, it's that they cancelled Young Justice for it because YJ was drawing in the "wrong" demographics (teens and young adults of both genders) and Cartoon Network specifically wanted their programming to draw in a younger crowd (kids under the age of 10) who would buy the toys. It was the exact same situation with the Green Lantern Animated Series. It was raking in views every week, but because it wasn't the under 10 demographic Cartoon Network was looking for, it got shitcanned to make room for Beware the Batman, which itself got unceremoniously shitcanned after only a few months.

That's actually not true. The bulk of Pokemon's income comes from merchandise sales, with games coming in second place, cards in third, and the anime in dead last. Regardless, Pokemon's anime division could have been saved from falling this disastrously low in popularity had they actually allowed the story or series to evolve beyond "a non-aging Ash wanders the world and does Pokemon stuffs." They tried branching out at least twice with the Raikou short and the Origins OVAs, 2 small specials aimed at a slightly older audience, and they were mostly well received by older fans. Unfortunately, they were spaced like 10 years apart, while the anime on TV and theatrical films (after the third or fourth film, I haven't seen them in a while and my memory of their exact details and plots is a bit fuzzy) refused to stop treating kids like they were idiots. Imagine if they just accepted that rehashing Ash's adventures over and over just wasn't cutting it anymore and Pokemon branched out to different demographics than "10 and under old kids."

As mentioned the previously mentioned show about the gym leader for adult audiences, imagine a show similar to Food Wars that's about the Pokemon fashion shows. Or a show with the tone of My Hero Academia about one of the martial artists who train in the dojos and with the melee type Pokemon, or about an up and coming fireman/cop building up their relationship with their Squirtle/Growlithe as they aged. Or a Cowboy Bebop-esque show but based around an ex Team Rocket, Magma, or whatever member

Due to the vast variety of different stories that can be told in the Pokemon world (or even multiverse if they wanted to connect them all with a new God tier Pokemon in a newer generation now that that concept is leaking into pop culture), it's beyond idiotic that they're so dead set on not utilizing the stories available to make more money. I mean, that's why not doing it is so stupid. The money they'd make off, not so much drawing in new fans, but the existing fans who are buying the merch but not supporting the company's animation endeavors could be pretty ludicrous.

You say the Pokemon anime was only a promotional device, but that's true of.... pretty much every cartoon made across the world. That hasn't stopped other companies from successfully branching into other demographics and make more money. Sure, Pokemon is the top earning franchise in the world right now, but imagine how much more money they'd be making if, instead of ratings drastically and steadily dropping for the past several years, they appealed to more people while still appealing to the same demographic, each with their own productions (but I think the anime is only going to turn things around if they start swapping Ash-type characters with each new region and only keeping on one or two of the previous show's characters as the bridging point).

No offense, but you're kind of coming off as a bit pessimistic who just wants the status quo for things to stay the same and never be shaken up.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:33 am

Deadpool and Spawn have always catered to older audiences. I fail to see your point. If something is trying to go on forever, why follow the audience? Why not let the new younger audience find you like the previous one did?

I was there for ALL of this. You pointing out the[/align] specific reasons for those cancellations is IRRELEVANT. Those reasons weren't what sent audiences into hissyfits, the mere fact of those cancellation and being replaced by series with more childish designs pissed a lot of people off because more transparently kiddie stuff bothers them, apparently.
Regardless, Pokemon's anime division could have been saved from falling this disastrously low in popularity had they actually allowed the story or series to evolve beyond "a non-aging Ash wanders the world and does Pokemon stuffs." They tried branching out at least twice with the Raikou short and the Origins OVAs, 2 small specials aimed at a slightly older audience, and they were mostly well received by older fans.
Well recieved doesn't equal eyeballs. It should also be noted that ratings are low for pretty much everything these days. People aren't watching TV in the same ways, and more to the point I don't buy that some armchair expert knows how to "save" the anime's popularity. I honestly don't believe they are leaving money on the table. The big money is appealing to families. The problem with making Pokemon more adult is the more you move away from the childish fantasy, the closer you get to realizing it's essentially cockfighting.
No offense, but you're kind of coming off as a bit pessimistic who just wants the status quo for things to stay the same and never be shaken up.
And no offense, you come across as immature and desperately doesn't want to leave the stuff they liked as a child behind, so the great answer is to desperately hope for series to "mature" with you. It's not about maintaining the status quo as much as keeping something's identity.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:36 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:08 am
The one where Joker paralyzes Barbara Gordon and undresses her and takes pictures then strips her father down naked and tries to drive him insane? Also his pregnant girlfriend died in a freak accident and he's bullied into a crime syndicate that results in him becoming the Joker.

That didn't fit into the dark and gritty mold because uh um uh reasons?
The stuff with the Gordons I'll give you, but I don't think the dead girlfriend/Red Hood bits are especially "dark and gritty". And even if you take the former into consideration, that's still just the Joker being a villain. The 90s dark stuff was all about taking the heroes and making them extreme and over the top.

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:21 am
I don’t know how anyone can claim that TKJ isn’t dark and gritty or that it wasn’t widely influential.
It wasn't widely influential because outside of the Batman comics, it wasn't particularly impactful. Dark Knight and Watchmen got far wider attention across the comic book industry. If readers got "dark and gritty" out of Watchmen, then that's what they got. Regardless of Alan Moore's intentions.

As for Dragon Ball, I don't know how much more dark and serious you can take it before it ceases to be Dragon Ball. Bardock and Trunks only work because they were one-offs and the show itself ended before things could get any darker.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:33 am
Deadpool and Spawn have always catered to older audiences. I fail to see your point.
The allowance of their very creation and publication is evidence of the industry growing and expanding to cater to multiple demographics. The point is that the comics industry made a sorted effort to appeal to more than just the "boys under 10" demographic after they started distancing themselves from the Comic's Code Authority and it's resulted in some of the most popular characters created in the last 50 years (with Deadpool having the second and third highest grossing R rated films of all time).
I was there for ALL of this. You pointing out the[/align] specific reasons for those cancellations is IRRELEVANT. Those reasons weren't what sent audiences into hissyfits, the mere fact of those cancellation and being replaced by series with more childish designs pissed a lot of people off because more transparently kiddie stuff bothers them, apparently.
No, the reasons behind the cancellation are not remotely irrlevant because it wasn't solely the fact that Teen Titan's Go is a children's program first that pissed off most people, at least not initially. It was the fact that mature shows that were drawing in viewers and winning awards was abruptly cancelled specifically to cater to those children that was the problem. If Young Justice and GL got moved to a new , more age appropriate time slots and Teen Titans Go! and Beware the Batman just took over the Saturday morning slots, it wouldn't have been remotely a problem. Likewise, the fact that the writers of the show thought it was appropriate in the midst of this backlash to make fun of the old fanbase and mock them with an episode where the whole message sent to viewers was about how the old Teen Titans show took itself too seriously and that people needed to lighten up.
If something is trying to go on forever, why follow the audience? Why not let the new younger audience find you like the previous one did?
Here you go again thinking that a franchise or brand that grows up can't cater to multiple demographics at the same time... Letting the series grow up does not mean completely abandoning the previous demographic, it means making more content that appeals to different audiences.

Regardless, what was popular with kids in the 1990s isn't guaranteed to continue drawing in crowds from kids in the 2020s or upcoming 2030s. Branching out to other demographics has, more often than not, resulted in making MORE money and having more staying power. Again, the fact that the Pokemon anime hasn't matured at all in almost 30 years is a prime reason it's ratings are tanking despite the brand being the most popular on the planet.
Well recieved doesn't equal eyeballs. It should also be noted that ratings are low for pretty much everything these days. People aren't watching TV in the same ways,
That doesn't change the main point, the popularity of the anime has been dropping for years and it has, despite what you tried claiming earlier, has had a problem bringing in and maintaining lifelong fans. It isn't just the ratings that are doing bad, the whole animation and home entertainment side of Pokemon has been suffering. The only reason the franchise is as profitable as it is is because the lore and concepts of the series transcend the popularity of the games or cartoons to the point where the merch (plushies, shirts, posters, etc) alone makes up for over 80% of it's revenue.
more to the point I don't buy that some armchair expert knows how to "save" the anime's popularity.
It doesn't take an "armchair expert" (btw, using that term is inherently offensive as its an insult that implies someone doesn't have the experience or knowledge to know what they're talking about simply because they don't work in a given industry; one doesn't have to work in said industry to see it's failings and extrapolate from history how to course correct) to look at the history of children's entertainment get a basic understanding that those who allow themselves to evolve past simply being "marketing material," have factually made more money and maintained more staying power than series that exclusively cater to one demographic and never look outwards. Especially series that aren't inherently exclusively interesting to children.
The problem with making Pokemon more adult is the more you move away from the childish fantasy, the closer you get to realizing it's essentially cockfighting.
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a side production for adults that acknowledges that. Not every piece of media that comes out of the franchise has to appeal directly to 10 year olds and making a one-off story for older readers/viewers that takes an introspective look at the franchise and it's darker side wouldn't be inherently a bad thing.
It's not about maintaining the status quo as much as keeping something's identity.
There's a huge difference between something evolving to be more than what it was intended to be and something completely losing it's identity. Producing the occasional OVA, movie, or spin-off series that isn't just "Kid is going on adventures with a Pokemon," and catered to demographics beyond just young children wouldn't result in it losing it's identity.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:01 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:36 am
The stuff with the Gordons I'll give you, but I don't think the dead girlfriend/Red Hood bits are especially "dark and gritty". And even if you take the former into consideration, that's still just the Joker being a villain. The 90s dark stuff was all about taking the heroes and making them extreme and over the top.
A pregnant woman gets blown up to advance the 'character development' of a man and you don't see how that's dark and gritty?

The Killing Joke in all of its importance to those it inspired is now the one reason the only mainstream interpretation of The Joker is to make him a boring psychopath. The only saving grace is that it's now given us Harley and Ivy being totes gay as fuck for one another but damn, it's still a massive bore-fest, especially since The Joker is the only Batman villain to get any main focus. Harley comes off more like a villain of The Joker now than anything else.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:23 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:01 pm

The Killing Joke in all of its importance to those it inspired is now the one reason the only mainstream interpretation of The Joker is to make him a boring psychopath.
Joker being a psychopath dates back to his inception before Comic Codes/pragmatism toned him down to prankster criminal clown. Then the 70s tried to merge the two interpretations. The Killing Joke's big contribution was "Joker was a normal guy before he had a really bad day and now that's his philosophy" but he also might be lying??? which informed the character in The Dark Knight and The Joker, even that crappy 2000s Batman toy commercial that aired on KidsWb gave nod to it iirc. Basically any story that has Joker spouting about how anyone can be driven to madness like him or shows Joker as a normal guy before going crazy pretty much owes its existence to The Killing Joke.
The only saving grace is that it's now given us Harley and Ivy being totes gay as fuck for one another but damn, it's still a massive bore-fest, especially since The Joker is the only Batman villain to get any main focus. Harley comes off more like a villain of The Joker now than anything else.
No, Harley and Ivy being "totes gay as fuck for another" goes back to the 90s cartoon series pairing them off at the end of its original run. The very same series that created Harley. It has nothing to do with The Killing Joke which preceded Harley Quinn's existence by a good four years anyways. The lesbian subtext for Harley and Ivy is nearly as old as Harley's existence.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:23 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:01 pm

The Killing Joke in all of its importance to those it inspired is now the one reason the only mainstream interpretation of The Joker is to make him a boring psychopath.
Joker being a psychopath dates back to his inception before Comic Codes/pragmatism toned him down to prankster criminal clown. Then the 70s tried to merge the two interpretations. The Killing Joke's big contribution was "Joker was a normal guy before he had a really bad day and now that's his philosophy" but he also might be lying??? which informed the character in The Dark Knight and The Joker, even that crappy 2000s Batman toy commercial that aired on KidsWb gave nod to it iirc. Basically any story that has Joker spouting about how anyone can be driven to madness like him or shows Joker as a normal guy before going crazy pretty much owes its existence to The Killing Joke.
The only saving grace is that it's now given us Harley and Ivy being totes gay as fuck for one another but damn, it's still a massive bore-fest, especially since The Joker is the only Batman villain to get any main focus. Harley comes off more like a villain of The Joker now than anything else.
No, Harley and Ivy being "totes gay as fuck for another" goes back to the 90s cartoon series pairing them off at the end of its original run. The very same series that created Harley. It has nothing to do with The Killing Joke which preceded Harley Quinn's existence by a good four years anyways. The lesbian subtext for Harley and Ivy is nearly as old as Harley's existence.
I'm talking about the recent depiction in the mainline comics and dropping the pre-text. We finally got out of endless "Joker abuses Harley, because Joker has to be edgy as fuck" scenes for an actual relationship between Harley and Ivy. That being said, I still have issues with Ivy considering how she's depicted as kissing people without consent to mind control them. From my perspective as a WLW it puts the character in an odd place because mainline DC is explicitly not erotic.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:31 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:01 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:36 am
The stuff with the Gordons I'll give you, but I don't think the dead girlfriend/Red Hood bits are especially "dark and gritty". And even if you take the former into consideration, that's still just the Joker being a villain. The 90s dark stuff was all about taking the heroes and making them extreme and over the top.
A pregnant woman gets blown up to advance the 'character development' of a man and you don't see how that's dark and gritty?
I think she was electrocuted. Regardless, while it is a troubling concept to say the least, my point was that it's no darker than anything you might find in a Silver Age comic book from the sixties. I certainly don't think that this particular aspect of the story would have had any real influence on the "dark and gritty" 90s.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:57 pm

Zeon you seem unable to grasp the difference between a company or even a medium catering to a bunch of different audiences vs. a single franchise/story.
Likewise, the fact that the writers of the show thought it was appropriate in the midst of this backlash to make fun of the old fanbase and mock them with an episode where the whole message sent to viewers was about how the old Teen Titans show took itself too seriously and that people needed to lighten up.
Um, they do need to lighten the hell up. I've been around comic book fandom too long to not see how they take kids stuff WAY too seriously. That there was a backlash to begin with is proof enough that they deserve to be told to lighten up.
The only reason the franchise is as profitable as it is is because the lore and concepts of the series transcend the popularity of the games or cartoons to the point where the merch (plushies, shirts, posters, etc) alone makes up for over 80% of it's revenue.
Mainstream audiences, the most important audience, don't give a damn about lore. Geeks place way too much importance on that stuff and it's annoying. Lore doesn't matter. The franchise is profitable because it's a very simple premise with a million permutations. Regardless of whether it's the games or the merchandise, bottom line it's that sort of thing that makes the most money. The story often is there to promote the product and there are power in stories but rarely is that the biggest revenue generator.
It doesn't take an "armchair expert" (btw, using that term is inherently offensive as its an insult that implies someone doesn't have the experience or knowledge to know what they're talking about simply because they don't work in a given industry; one doesn't have to work in said industry to see it's failings and extrapolate from history how to course correct) to look at the history of children's entertainment get a basic understanding that those who allow themselves to evolve past simply being "marketing material," have factually made more money and maintained more staying power than series that exclusively cater to one demographic and never look outwards. Especially series that aren't inherently exclusively interesting to children.
And I'll double down, way too many armchair experts (not an offensive term, good lord) believe they have a basic understanding of those industries and they really don't. I don't think you're unable, but the way you talk about it isn't showing any level of fundamental understanding. I can't for one second believe that someone on an internet forum of all places knows more about how to save the popularity of anime, or if it's even possible, than those in it. Given the reductive nature of your solution(s), I'd bet you are incorrect.
There's a huge difference between something evolving to be more than what it was intended to be and something completely losing it's identity. Producing the occasional OVA, movie, or spin-off series that isn't just "Kid is going on adventures with a Pokemon," and catered to demographics beyond just young children wouldn't result in it losing it's identity.
No, but that OVA wouldn't be Pokemon, it would be some grimdark bullshit that claims to be sophisticated. DB can get dark sometimes, and how much darker could it get without going into the realm of indulgence?
And there's absolutely nothing wrong with a side production for adults that acknowledges that.
Except that it would be friggin pointless.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:43 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:57 pm
Zeon you seem unable to grasp the difference between a company or even a medium catering to a bunch of different audiences vs. a single franchise/story.
From my perspective it's you who seems unable to grasp that no one is asking for the current Pokemon anime to take a sudden turn towards making adult themed content, but rather the Pokemon Company producing different anime stories unconnected to one another outside the obvious "but with Pokemon" catch aimed at different audiences. The best part about the best fantasy concepts is that their appeal generally far exceeds any love or dedication to a single character. They don't have to adhere exclusively to one type of story and they can branch out and tell different people's stories in different productions.
Um, they do need to lighten the hell up. I've been around comic book fandom too long to not see how they take kids stuff WAY too seriously. That there was a backlash to begin with is proof enough that they deserve to be told to lighten up.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being passionate about the shows and characters you love, regardless of who the intended audience is. Regardless, cancelling a popular show because it's popular with the wrong people, then telling that fanbase to basically fuck itself with it's issues is a massive mishandling of a brand and disrespect towards the fans.
Mainstream audiences, the most important audience, don't give a damn about lore. Geeks place way too much importance on that stuff and it's annoying. Lore doesn't matter. The franchise is profitable because it's a very simple premise with a million permutations. Regardless of whether it's the games or the merchandise, bottom line it's that sort of thing that makes the most money. The story often is there to promote the product and there are power in stories but rarely is that the biggest revenue generator.
I just included "and concepts" in my statement and you rebutted with "lore isn't important, the concepts are." No one said it would be the biggest, just that it would be a bigger revenue generator than they're getting now because, as pointed out before, no one is watching the anime anymore. What part of improving the quality and reach of any branch of a brand or franchise will inherently bring bigger profits aren't you understanding?

Your whole approach to this has been "if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wait, it is broke? Who cares, that's not the primary money maker anyway."
And I'll double down, way too many armchair experts (not an offensive term, good lord) believe they have a basic understanding of those industries and they really don't. I don't think you're unable, but the way you talk about it isn't showing any level of fundamental understanding. I can't for one second believe that someone on an internet forum of all places knows more about how to save the popularity of anime, or if it's even possible, than those in it. Given the reductive nature of your solution(s), I'd bet you are incorrect.
It is absolutely an offensive term when used to dismiss someone's argument on the grounds that "they don't work in the industry (that I know of, but they're online so they can't possibly be) so they automatically have no actual insight or knowledge of how things work."

You can't sit there and dismiss the premise that targeting a more diverse range of customers would bring in more viewers/money, despite the fact that we have history of other brands and franchises to prove it's true, on the sole premise that the person presenting it to you is some person, whose background you don't know, is on the internet. Ignoring that, one doesn't have to be an industry insider to understand the film making process.
No, but that OVA wouldn't be Pokemon, it would be some grimdark bullshit that claims to be sophisticated. DB can get dark sometimes, and how much darker could it get without going into the realm of indulgence?
Is that the crux of this whole argument? That when I said "content aimed at adults," you immediately jumped to "edgy grimdark bullshit that's explicitly vulgar/violent/sexual for no reason other than just to be that way?" There's nothing inherently grimdark about writing a story with adult audiences in mind.
Except that it would be friggin pointless.
Just because you are personally unreceptive to the very concept of letting aging franchise and brands grow up, doesn't mean it'd be pointless. If it works and draws viewers, fans, and revenue, then it's not pointless. If it refreshes the general public's interest in the animation side of Pokemon, it wouldn't be pointless. It's only pointless if it goes absolutely nowhere and has absolutely nothing to say.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:03 pm

You are extremely naive to think it's mere passion at play there. It's not that good shows were cancelled. They balked at the new shows because they were made for a younger audience and more overtly childish, althought it TTG! is more clever and often times more inappropriate for kids than its detractors would care to acknowledge. Your explanation doesn't apply to the new Thundercats show. Nothing was shitcanned to make room for it. Even assuming you're correct, and it had nothing to do with TTG!, that they took out their frustrations on that show is proof enough that they do need to grow up and laugh a little.
What part of improving the quality and reach of any branch of a brand or franchise will inherently bring bigger profits aren't you understanding?
And why do you think the Pokemon Company isn't spending the better part of everyday trying to do just that?
It is absolutely an offensive term when used to dismiss someone's argument on the grounds that "they don't work in the industry (that I know of, but they're online so they can't possibly be) so they automatically have no actual insight or knowledge of how things work."
It's not offensive. If you get offended by such a term, that's on you. Do you have insider knowledge? If so, we're all ears. Why bring that argument up if it's hypothetical? Do you have inside knowledge? I'm dismissing your argument because I have a hard time fathoming someone with inside knowledge arguing the way you have. If the answer is SO obvious, then why aren't they going in that direction? Are they just sitting there going "We could make more money, but nope, let's not do that"? Look, there's a reason Disney releases more adult shows and film through other studios instead of releasing it all under the Disney banner. Brands can't be all things to all people. The same with stories. In marketing, they also say narrowing focus is generally a much better idea than casting a wide net.
There's nothing inherently grimdark about writing a story with adult audiences in mind.
Then what do you have in mind as stories that appeal to adult audiences that isn't just grimdark? As has been amply proven, adults don't have any issue enjoying entertainment aimed at younger audiences. And there's little about being aimed at children that means it can't be mature or somewhat sophisticated. What issues do you want dealt with that can't be dealt with in a show aimed at children? What more can be said about Broly by making it more "adult" that can't be achieved as a kids' show? DB can support a lot of different tones and a variety of stories already. What more is there to say about Broly beyond he was abused by his father and thrown away like trash by his own people? What will he contribute to Goku's story?
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:03 pm
You are extremely naive to think it's mere passion at play there. It's not that good shows were cancelled. They balked at the new shows because they were made for a younger audience and more overtly childish, althought it TTG! is more clever and often times more inappropriate for kids than its detractors would care to acknowledge. Your explanation doesn't apply to the new Thundercats show. Nothing was shitcanned to make room for it. Even assuming you're correct, and it had nothing to do with TTG!, that they took out their frustrations on that show is proof enough that they do need to grow up and laugh a little.
What part of improving the quality and reach of any branch of a brand or franchise will inherently bring bigger profits aren't you understanding?
And why do you think the Pokemon Company isn't spending the better part of everyday trying to do just that?
It is absolutely an offensive term when used to dismiss someone's argument on the grounds that "they don't work in the industry (that I know of, but they're online so they can't possibly be) so they automatically have no actual insight or knowledge of how things work."
It's not offensive. If you get offended by such a term, that's on you. Do you have insider knowledge? If so, we're all ears. Why bring that argument up if it's hypothetical? Do you have inside knowledge? I'm dismissing your argument because I have a hard time fathoming someone with inside knowledge arguing the way you have. If the answer is SO obvious, then why aren't they going in that direction? Are they just sitting there going "We could make more money, but nope, let's not do that"? Look, there's a reason Disney releases more adult shows and film through other studios instead of releasing it all under the Disney banner. Brands can't be all things to all people. The same with stories. In marketing, they also say narrowing focus is generally a much better idea than casting a wide net.
There's nothing inherently grimdark about writing a story with adult audiences in mind.
Then what do you have in mind as stories that appeal to adult audiences that isn't just grimdark? As has been amply proven, adults don't have any issue enjoying entertainment aimed at younger audiences. And there's little about being aimed at children that means it can't be mature or somewhat sophisticated. What issues do you want dealt with that can't be dealt with in a show aimed at children? What more can be said about Broly by making it more "adult" that can't be achieved as a kids' show? DB can support a lot of different tones and a variety of stories already. What more is there to say about Broly beyond he was abused by his father and thrown away like trash by his own people? What will he contribute to Goku's story?
What do you think evokes strong emotional reactions if not passion? And I was there among the fanbase when this shit was going down. I read their complaints and arguments. Yes, there were some who were upset that it was a kid's show in general, but the vast majority were fans who felt burnt by the fact that Cartoon Network decided they weren't good enough to cater to and cancelled a couple beloved shows explicitly to produce something that seemingly followed the same "lolrandom" sense of humor that many view as cancerous for not just shows in general but kids shows specifically.

Any word repeatedly used as a means to insult, belittle, demean, or dismiss another person and their arguments or opinions based on preconceived notions, even if not originally meant to be offensive, absolutely crosses that line.

One does not need to work inside the industry or have industry connections to understand how things are made nor understand the lessons taught at basic business classes (the main one being discussed being that increasing profit is always the goal and always beneficial to the company/brand/franchise)... Companies make stupid decisions all the time. The Pokemon Company letting the anime branch of the brand slowly choke itself to death and irrelevance is an unarguably stupid decision. They CAN do something to fix the situation and make more money, but they're actively refusing to do so. The only reason they're struggling is because they've absolutely refused to move on from retelling the same basic stories about Ash for the last 23 years.

That focus saying is generally used in relation to a single show or story. Trying to please everyone with the exact same product never works, but producing a multitude of products that appeal to different demographics almost always works if the concept of the brand allows for it.

I already listed two ideas for a Pokemon story aimed more towards adults than kids (the washed up gym leader and the crime drama revolving around one of the many crime organizations in the universe), the first one of which isn't remotely "grimdark" by any stretch of the imagination. You've just repeatedly refused to acknowledge them at all much less admit that yes, there are some fans out there that would be interested in watching content that was made with them in mind rather than exclusively the 10 year olds the franchise was initially meant for.

There is more to explore to people who come from broken homes beyond just saying "whelp, they come from broken homes and that's all there really is to say about that." Beyond that, not everything in the Dragon Ball franchise has to directly impact GOKU's story. Especially if the series is trying to poise itself to continue forever. (if anything, it needs to find a way to move on from just Goku). Just because there's no way to naturally write a Dragon Ball story for adults that affects Goku's story, doesn't mean they can't write on in the universe in general. A brutal show about the life of a Saiyan foot soldier during King Cold's initial years with the Saiyans that not only returns to or surpasses the level of violence of the original series, but captures the tone of the Bardock or Trunks specials would more likely than not be a hit among the older DB fans who miss the days of characters bleeding when damaged or death having weight.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:30 pm

There's strong and then there are reactions that lack perspective. Mature adults don't get super upset about their favorite kids shows getting cancelled.
One does not need to work inside the industry or have industry connections to understand how things are made nor understand the lessons taught at basic business classes (the main one being discussed being that increasing profit is always the goal and always beneficial to the company/brand/franchise)... Companies make stupid decisions all the time. The Pokemon Company letting the anime branch of the brand slowly choke itself to death and irrelevance is an unarguably stupid decision. They CAN do something to fix the situation and make more money, but they're actively refusing to do so. The only reason they're struggling is because they've absolutely refused to move on from retelling the same basic stories about Ash for the last 23 years.
Nothing in this paragraph tells me you know a damn thing about the industry you're talking about so I'd say my armchair expert comment was apt. Companies can make questionable decisions but you haven't given me any reason to think your solution would actually work. Your last two sentences in particular are a perfect example of why I don't think you have anything of value to say on the subject. And I didn't need a damn definition. I was asking how it applied to the discussion. I called you that because I don't think you have any insight into this issue You come off as little more than someone who read some stuff on the internet and just really want the POKEMON anime of all things to branch out.
producing a multitude of products that appeal to different demographics almost always works if the concept of the brand allows for it.
Examples please.

Nothing about a crime drama or a washed up gym leader need be aimed specifically at adults.
You've just repeatedly refused to acknowledge them at all much less admit that yes, there are some fans out there that would be interested in watching content that was made with them in mind rather than exclusively the 10 year olds the franchise was initially meant for.
Uh, no. Not once did I ever claim that. Kids shows aren't lacking for adult audiences. I'm aware that there's an audience for it, but is it worth appealing to them when efforts and capital might be best spent continuing to appeal to the target audience? I'd say the latter seeing as how the latter strategy isn't pushing away older customers, but the former strategy might not attract enough potential older customers. Hopefully that makes sense. There is an opportunity cost to these strategies.
There is more to explore to people who come from broken homes beyond just saying "whelp, they come from broken homes and that's all there really is to say about that." Beyond that, not everything in the Dragon Ball franchise has to directly impact GOKU's story. Especially if the series is trying to poise itself to continue forever. (if anything, it needs to find a way to move on from just Goku). Just because there's no way to naturally write a Dragon Ball story for adults that affects Goku's story, doesn't mean they can't write on in the universe in general. A brutal show about the life of a Saiyan foot soldier during King Cold's initial years with the Saiyans that not only returns to or surpasses the level of violence of the original series, but captures the tone of the Bardock or Trunks specials would more likely than not be a hit among the older DB fans who miss the days of characters bleeding when damaged or death having weight.
I know there is, but do you think DB is the place for that exploration or that anyone associated with it could do a sufficient job at it? DB is inherently HIS story, so I think you're wrong on that front. Moving away from the key character is a disaster of an idea. Regarding the King Cold thing, That's spinoff territory and not what we're talking about. I have little interest in the Saiyan history prequel idea you propose. Prequels are usually about lore and I don't give a damn about that. The only prequel series I've enjoyed is Better Call Saul and that was because it isn't preoccupied with answering questions about backstory. It's magic is in the little moments, the characters, and their relationships. Your King Cold suggestion and your thoughts about whom it would appeal to conjures up images of edgelord BS.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:30 pm
There's strong and then there are reactions that lack perspective. Mature adults don't get super upset about their favorite kids shows getting cancelled.
Well actually-

Oh wait, you said mature adults. As you were.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:30 pm
There's strong and then there are reactions that lack perspective. Mature adults don't get super upset about their favorite kids shows getting cancelled.
Calling someone immature because they're passionate about something they like, regardless of the target demographic, is ironic as hell. Something being made for kids doesn't mean people are immature for having emotional attachments to it or being upset that a story they love and have been supporting from day 1 gets shitcanned and left on a cliffhanger because the TV station decided you were the wrong audience.
Nothing in this paragraph tells me you know a damn thing about the industry you're talking about so I'd say my armchair expert comment was apt. Companies can make questionable decisions but you haven't given me any reason to think your solution would actually work. Your last two sentences in particular are a perfect example of why I don't think you have anything of value to say on the subject. And I didn't need a damn definition. I was asking how it applied to the discussion. I called you that because I don't think you have any insight into this issue You come off as little more than someone who read some stuff on the internet and just really want the POKEMON anime of all things to branch out.
I've given you multiple examples of the strategy working across the world and across different mediums. You've just ignored them on the premise that I'm on the internet. Only on the internet can someone make the factual statement that branching out to multiple audiences when the concept of your brand/franchise allows for it always increases profits and be told they don't know anything about how business works because they challenge the business decisions of a company that's letting a whole branch of their multimedia franchise kill itself off.

Pokemon is just an example being used... That said, studying analytics, sales patterns, and other successful practices through the internet is more than a valid way of gaining an understanding of those topics... Likewise, spending a lifetime watching behind the scenes specials and documentaries, reading interviews from people in the industry, and listening to lectures from directors and producers about how movies are made is more than enough to understand the process behind making movies... Claiming otherwise is like telling historians and scholars that their research and opinions aren't worth a thing because they "weren't there when it happened."

Please try to refrain from making claims that come off in the same tone and logic that stupider teachers like to use when claiming that only sources from physical books you've read are valid.
Nothing about a crime drama or a washed up gym leader need be aimed specifically at adults.
You honestly think 10 year olds would be interested in the least bit about a story revolving around an aging adult learning to adjust to mundane normal life after his glory days are well behind him? Or a serious crime drama about the seedier corners of the Pokemon universe and concepts?
Uh, no. Not once did I ever claim that. Kids shows aren't lacking for adult audiences. I'm aware that there's an audience for it, but is it worth appealing to them when efforts and capital might be best spent continuing to appeal to the target audience? I'd say the latter seeing as how the latter strategy isn't pushing away older customers, but the former strategy might not attract enough potential older customers. Hopefully that makes sense. There is an opportunity cost to these strategies.
I didn't say you claimed anything in that sentence, I said you've actively ignored the pitches I've presented and kept acting like there's no room in the Pokemon franchise for anime stories that aren't just "10 year old goes on adventures with Pokemon."
I know there is, but you think DB is the place for that exploration or that anyone associated with it could do a sufficient job at it? DB is inherently HIS story, so I think you're wrong on that front. Moving away from the key character is a disaster of an idea.
No, Dragon Ball was INITIALLY Goku's story, but over the years it built a universe and lore that's expansive that it's ripe with potential ideas and stories that can be told in that universe that don't directly impact the original main character. As much as I don't like the story of the Heroes/Xenoverse games (because the main characters are all fan self-inserts instead of actual characters), they prove that you can absolutely do stories that aren't inherently about progressing Goku's story and the fans are more than accepting of the idea.
Regarding the King Cold thing, That's spinoff territory and not what we're talking about.
>.> We ARE talking about spinoffs and such. Or at least I have been from the very start... I've even made this clear to you multiple times.
I have little interest in the Saiyan history prequel idea you propose. Prequels are usually about lore and I don't give a damn about that. The only prequel series I've enjoyed is Better Call Saul and that was because it isn't preoccupied with answering questions about backstory. It's magic is in the little moments.
If you don't understand how this whole thing is irrelevant to this discussion, I honestly don't know what to say. No one gives a remote amount of a shit about what YOU personally aren't interested in or don't want to watch. Just because you don't like prequels doesn't mean the idea of producing a prequel is inherently bad or pointless.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:23 pm

The examples you give me aren't good. Deadpool and Spawn don't prove that franchises or stories that grow with the audience or cater to more than one demographic make more money. Spawn was always for adults. Again, you confuse mediums with franchises. If you can't understand how intrinsically different a medium and an individual story are from each other, then this discussion is at an impasse.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:23 pm
It is inherently bad if it's just a bunch of lore, which sadly most prequels are.
No, a story that's primarily meant to expand the lore of a universe is not inherently bad, nor are prequels...


You realize that the two things (spin-offs and maturing a franchise) aren't mutually exclusive, right? From the start my stance has been that the franchise/brand should/could grow and mature by producing separate productions that cater to different groups of people. I've said this multiple times now... The Pokemon franchise is more than just the story of Ash Ketchum's adventures with Pikachu...

Stop harping on the use of the term "lore," in a positive manner... You're right, lore alone doesn't sell franchises, but that doesn't mean that fans of a franchise can't or don't come to love the lore and concepts of a franchise more than the characters themselves. Just because YOU'RE only interested in a franchise for it's characters and original story, doesn't mean that's why other people are interested in or value said franchise.


Saying the franchise shouldn't branch out to other demographics for any reason IS saying it shouldn't evolve past being just for that original demographic. And just as there are plenty of stories to be explored within the original target demographic, there are just as many to be explored outside that demographic as well... The concepts and ideas behind the Pokemon franchise are not mutually exclusive with needing to be made for young children.

If your counterargument to the question "why shouldn't this multimedia franchise branch out to multiple demographics, especially when one of it's branches is dying?" is "Because I don't like the idea of changing something's focus or understand the appeal," there's something fundamentally wrong with your argument and capacity to think beyond your own personal interests and desires.


Any story that involves the Pokemon world is Pokemon... The great thing about high concept fantasy worlds is that aren't tied to any one specific tone, character, or story. Tolkien's work isn't hailed for being a masterpiece because Bilbo and Frodo are some of the best characters in fiction ever or because the stories of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are perfect, universally interesting narratives, but because his world building and skill crafted a setting that tons of fantasy fans adore, are drawn to, and can't help but get lost in.

Imagine how comics would be today if everyone approached them with the exact same mentality you're using after the Golden Age. We'd never have excellent stories like Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, or any Deadpool or Marvel Knights runs if those in charge of DC and Marvel decided "nope, these comics were originally meant to be just dumb, nonsensical entertainment for 10 year olds, we're going to keep it that way forever." There's absolutely no reason Pokemon or Dragon Ball can't follow in those footsteps and start releasing different works for different demographics.


EDIT: I'm not sure what the hell happened, but when I hit "post," it deleted all the text from the post I was quoting and your previous post isn't here anymore... A lot of this makes no sense without the context of what I'm replying to, but the points should be clear enough for you.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:04 pm

Any story that involves the Pokemon world is Pokemon... The great thing about high concept fantasy worlds is that aren't tied to any one specific tone, character, or story. Tolkien's work isn't hailed for being a masterpiece because Bilbo and Frodo are some of the best characters in fiction ever or because the stories of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are perfect, universally interesting narratives, but because his world building and skill crafted a setting that tons of fantasy fans adore, are drawn to, and can't help but get lost in.
I would argue the opposite. The reason his books connected is because people love the characters and the stories. It's why The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are hailed as classics and few remember the Silmarillion. And prequels aren't inherently bad. Better Call Saul for example, but I will continue to harp negatively on the over fixation on lore because it's putting the cart before the horse. Most people don't care about lore because it's not about emotions and pay offs, at its core, lore is just exposition.
magine how comics would be today if everyone approached them with the exact same mentality you're using after the Golden Age. We'd never have excellent stories like Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke, or any Deadpool or Marvel Knights runs if those in charge of DC and Marvel decided "nope, these comics were originally meant to be just dumb, nonsensical entertainment for 10 year olds, we're going to keep it that way forever." There's absolutely no reason Pokemon or Dragon Ball can't follow in those footsteps and start releasing different works for different demographics.
First, Knightfall isn't a great story, and second, you still confuse mediums with stories. Nothing in the medium of comics is inherently for kids. I don't know why you don't understand that. Comics are just a medium where static drawings are used to tell a story.
You're right, lore alone doesn't sell franchises, but that doesn't mean that fans of a franchise can't or don't come to love the lore and concepts of a franchise more than the characters themselves.
I would argue they don't actually love the lore more than the characters.
The Pokemon franchise is more than just the story of Ash Ketchum's adventures with Pikachu...
Not remotely what I've argued, and I never said one word about Ash. It was never about that. It was all about demographics. Fine, if Pokemon wants to get out of its rut, move beyond Ash. Find another character to center the story on, but keep the story aimed at kids. The reason Power Rangers has always been able to keep an audience (more or less) is because it doesn't tie itself to any one team anymore but it's always a kids show. That's what Power Rangers is at its core.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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