What do you want with Broly?

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XanatosVanBadass
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:20 am

My question is; what would a more “adult” Dragon Ball even look like? Would it entail more graphic violence? More focus on the politics of the Dragon World? Blatant sex and nudity? I mean, this kind of talk reminds me of the attempt to make Thundercats dark and edgy in the form of a comic series in the 00’s. In those, there was the poorly thought out decision to imply that Cheetara had been captured and repeatedly raped by the mutants as well as Wily-kit and wily-kat as Mumra’s personal (implied sex) slaves. Hell, this discussion reminds me of adult (male) My Little Pony fans who constantly whine about how they wish the series would take a dark turn which character deaths and what not.

Why can’t some things just be for children?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:03 am

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:20 am
My question is; what would a more “adult” Dragon Ball even look like? Would it entail more graphic violence? More focus on the politics of the Dragon World? Blatant sex and nudity?
I think this is assuming a lot about what it means for a story to be "adult." HxH is pretty definitively for kids but it manages to squeeze in a lot (horror, meditations on politics, gags, black humor). Meanwhile stories more geared towards adults like GTO and Welcome to the NHK are, in comparison, much lighter and more optimistic stories. They're much to focused on the individual and mundane traumas that come with the life of an individual to really include the kind of adult stuff you're thinking of. I don't see why a more "grown up" Dragon Ball couldn't follow that format.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:03 am
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:20 am
My question is; what would a more “adult” Dragon Ball even look like? Would it entail more graphic violence? More focus on the politics of the Dragon World? Blatant sex and nudity?
I think this is assuming a lot about what it means for a story to be "adult." HxH is pretty definitively for kids but it manages to squeeze in a lot (horror, meditations on politics, gags, black humor). Meanwhile stories more geared towards adults like GTO and Welcome to the NHK are, in comparison, much lighter and more optimistic stories. They're much to focused on the individual and mundane traumas that come with the life of an individual to really include the kind of adult stuff you're thinking of. I don't see why a more "grown up" Dragon Ball couldn't follow that format.
The difference between DB and the tv shows you mentioned is they’re set in the mundane “real” world, as opposed to the fantastic, silly Dragon World. Kururin’s love life troubles were an amusing mild subplot in Dragon Ball, but few would actually tune in to watch an entire show like that. Hence why episodes about that stuff are relegated to filler. It’s a fun avenue to visit, but not stay too long. DB is simply too inherently childish to “grow” up without looking try hard. Besides, despite what US fans who hate Super want to think, Super was a success with fans old and new. So, why cater to the adult fans when they’re already getting your money and views?

EDIT: to answer the thread topic, I could see Broly becoming less a full on good guy and more of a wild card of sorts that they almost NEVER ask to help in a fight since they don’t know what he’d do. Anything could make him snap and turn on everyone in the battle, friend or foe.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:51 am

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am
The difference between DB and the tv shows you mentioned is they’re set in the mundane “real” world, as opposed to the fantastic, silly Dragon World. Kururin’s love life troubles were an amusing mild subplot in Dragon Ball, but few would actually tune in to watch an entire show like that. Hence why episodes about that stuff are relegated to filler. It’s a fun avenue to visit, but not stay too long. DB is simply too inherently childish to “grow” up without looking try hard. Besides, despite what US fans who hate Super want to think, Super was a success with fans old and new. So, why cater to the adult fans when they’re already getting your money and views?
You're responding to an argument I didn't make. I listed the manga I did to illustrate that adult stories don't need the content you described to be considered adult. And I listed HxH to show that stories for children do contain a lot of the material you consider adult. Super being a commercial success has nothing to do with anything
Last edited by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips on Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:35 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am
DB is simply too inherently childish to “grow” up without looking try hard.
People said the same things about superhero comic books back in the early days of the medium, but now here we are, with countless stories and comics made explicitly for adults that do well and bring in more fans than just the kids who enjoyed reading about Superman save kittens from trees or Wonder Woman stopping Nazis from raising the price of milk in the US.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:20 am
My question is; what would a more “adult” Dragon Ball even look like? Would it entail more graphic violence? More focus on the politics of the Dragon World? Blatant sex and nudity? I mean, this kind of talk reminds me of the attempt to make Thundercats dark and edgy in the form of a comic series in the 00’s. In those, there was the poorly thought out decision to imply that Cheetara had been captured and repeatedly raped by the mutants as well as Wily-kit and wily-kat as Mumra’s personal (implied sex) slaves. Hell, this discussion reminds me of adult (male) My Little Pony fans who constantly whine about how they wish the series would take a dark turn which character deaths and what not.

Why can’t some things just be for children?
Honestly I'm confused too. Two of Super's three original arcs were very dark. The Future Trunks arc had the darkest ending imaginable and was set in a bleak wasteland. Zamasu still holds the highest body count out of any Dragon Ball villain. The ToP arc was also very dark, especially whenever each universe was erased. While Super still has a light-hearted tone and few gory scenes (although some come to mind, like when Black stabbed Vegeta) doesn't mean that it doesn't have an adult or dark story.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:34 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
The Future Trunks arc had the darkest ending imaginable and was set in a bleak wasteland.
Not really. It could've been way, way darker if they hadn't nonsensically asspulled at the last minute Whis saying "oh yeah trunks can return to a version of his timeline. we said the timeline was destroyed but it wasn't really. we can still go back to it. and even though we object to time shenanigans, we'll let trunks go live out a life with his double in another timeline that we will create by doing this. and then our heroes feel no ill consequences at all. [insert food joke] hahaha!"
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
The ToP arc was also very dark, especially whenever each universe was erased.
Though this was entirely undercut when they ended it with "oh yeah this was just a secret test of character to see if you'd revive all the universes lol. we never actually wanted them all to go."
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
While Super still has a light-hearted tone and few gory scenes (although some come to mind, like when Black stabbed Vegeta) doesn't mean that it doesn't have an adult or dark story.
I'd argue Super's storytelling is rather childish, honestly. For one thing, there's no lasting consequences for anything other than new transformations. Even when something as theoretically horrifying as the Black arc happens, none of the characters act any differently from when it began, in fact they barely (if at all) mention it again. Ditto for ResF and the U6 tournament. TOP, we haven't seen anything past it other than Broly, which offhand mentioned the TOP purely for the sake of "hey remember the last time we fought some strong guys? we have to keep our strength up lol". The only lasting consequences is Freeza's presence, which could have happened at any time (in fact, if you remember, it already happened, but they were so afraid of lasting consequences that they killed him off the first time).
And so far in the Moro arc, we've had no hints of Broly, Freeza, or anything else from the TOP or Broly storylines.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:01 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:35 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:34 am
DB is simply too inherently childish to “grow” up without looking try hard.
People said the same things about superhero comic books back in the early days of the medium, but now here we are, with countless stories and comics made explicitly for adults that do well and bring in more fans than just the kids who enjoyed reading about Superman save kittens from trees or Wonder Woman stopping Nazis from raising the price of milk in the US.
And yet they're still inherently childish. They're power fantasies at their core.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:20 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:34 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
The Future Trunks arc had the darkest ending imaginable and was set in a bleak wasteland.
Not really. It could've been way, way darker if they hadn't nonsensically asspulled at the last minute Whis saying "oh yeah trunks can return to a version of his timeline. we said the timeline was destroyed but it wasn't really. we can still go back to it. and even though we object to time shenanigans, we'll let trunks go live out a life with his double in another timeline that we will create by doing this. and then our heroes feel no ill consequences at all. [insert food joke] hahaha!"
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
The ToP arc was also very dark, especially whenever each universe was erased.
Though this was entirely undercut when they ended it with "oh yeah this was just a secret test of character to see if you'd revive all the universes lol. we never actually wanted them all to go."
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:21 pm
While Super still has a light-hearted tone and few gory scenes (although some come to mind, like when Black stabbed Vegeta) doesn't mean that it doesn't have an adult or dark story.
I'd argue Super's storytelling is rather childish, honestly. For one thing, there's no lasting consequences for anything other than new transformations. Even when something as theoretically horrifying as the Black arc happens, none of the characters act any differently from when it began, in fact they barely (if at all) mention it again. Ditto for ResF and the U6 tournament. TOP, we haven't seen anything past it other than Broly, which offhand mentioned the TOP purely for the sake of "hey remember the last time we fought some strong guys? we have to keep our strength up lol". The only lasting consequences is Freeza's presence, which could have happened at any time (in fact, if you remember, it already happened, but they were so afraid of lasting consequences that they killed him off the first time).
And so far in the Moro arc, we've had no hints of Broly, Freeza, or anything else from the TOP or Broly storylines.
That wasn't a happy ending. The timeline Trunks is going to is not his actual timeline. His actual mother, teacher, friends, etc. are all dead. The fact that he has to live with a copy of himself is proof of his failure to stop Zamasu. He even cries at the end.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:08 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:01 pm
And yet they're still inherently childish. They're power fantasies at their core.
That's not in question here and there's nothing inherently wrong with something made for adults being inherently childish, silly, or a power fantasy.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 pm

Fantasy for adults doesn't necessarily have to be "power fantasy". Or is the argument that some things are too silly to be considered "adult"?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:45 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 pm
Fantasy for adults doesn't necessarily have to be "power fantasy". Or is the argument that some things are too silly to be considered "adult"?
They're too silly to be considered adult. They might be aimed at adults but they're not really adult material.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:44 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:45 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 pm
Fantasy for adults doesn't necessarily have to be "power fantasy". Or is the argument that some things are too silly to be considered "adult"?
They're too silly to be considered adult. They might be aimed at adults but they're not really adult material.
Yes, because all things adult must be 100% serious on all levels; no room for any silliness at all, whatsoever...? :eh:

Ultimate Spider-Man is inherently a little silly in premise -- radioactive spider bite gives teen superpowers -- but having read about half its initial 2000-2009 run, I would say it's a very adult book, and anyone claiming otherwise, I'd ask if they've actually read the damn thing.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and its spinoff Angel, is undoubtedly a rather adult show, but it's very silly in places; some of the fan favourite episodes are the funniest... Does that mean it's not adult?
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:01 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:44 pm



Ultimate Spider-Man is inherently a little silly in premise -- radioactive spider bite gives teen superpowers -- but having read about half its initial 2000-2009 run, I would say it's a very adult book, and anyone claiming otherwise, I'd ask if they've actually read the damn thing.
It’s not. Teens sure. But its definitely not adult.
Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and its spinoff Angel, is undoubtedly a rather adult show, but it's very silly in places; some of the fan favourite episodes are the funniest... Does that mean it's not adult?
Angel felt more adult but Buffy always felt like it was aimed at a broader audience. That it was meant to appeal to high schoolers as much as adults. More so the first three seasons but even after.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Dbzk1999 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:12 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:44 pm
Ultimate Spider-Man is inherently a little silly in premise -- radioactive spider bite gives teen superpowers -- but having read about half its initial 2000-2009 run, I would say it's a very adult book, and anyone claiming otherwise, I'd ask if they've actually read the damn thing.
Genuine question, what’s the definition being used for an “adult” book? Cause having read it back in 2012 or so, nothing really stuck out to me in that run as “adult”. Not like something such as Garth Ennis’s Punisher MAX, or Bendis’s Alias series
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:38 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:44 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:45 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 pm
Fantasy for adults doesn't necessarily have to be "power fantasy". Or is the argument that some things are too silly to be considered "adult"?
They're too silly to be considered adult. They might be aimed at adults but they're not really adult material.
Yes, because all things adult must be 100% serious on all levels; no room for any silliness at all, whatsoever...? :eh:

Ultimate Spider-Man is inherently a little silly in premise -- radioactive spider bite gives teen superpowers -- but having read about half its initial 2000-2009 run, I would say it's a very adult book, and anyone claiming otherwise, I'd ask if they've actually read the damn thing.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and its spinoff Angel, is undoubtedly a rather adult show, but it's very silly in places; some of the fan favourite episodes are the funniest... Does that mean it's not adult?
This isn't a matter of humor vs. seriousness, just that the idea of people dressing up in colorful costumes to take the law into their own hands to fight crime is a silly one when you think about it, and a pretty disconcerting one the closer to real life you get.

Buffy was aimed at a younger audience, mostly teens. It's central metaphor is about growing up. Angel's central metaphor is inherently one for and older group. It's about regret, addiction, recovery, and redemption.

I used to think stories aimed at adults was a matter of darker tones, bad language, etc. It's really not. I think of it now having to do with the depth which writing tackles its themes and the kinds of themes and topics they tackle.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm

Virtually any premise that leans into the realm of fantasy is inherently silly once you stop to think about it.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Virtually any premise that leans into the realm of fantasy is inherently silly once you stop to think about it.
It's not that it's goofy them dressing up in costume, though that's certainly the case, it's that it paints the world as far more simplistic than it truly is. Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved. And the closer the stories get to reality, the more troubling the ethics of it become, especially vigilantes like Batman.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Virtually any premise that leans into the realm of fantasy is inherently silly once you stop to think about it.
It's not that it's goofy them dressing up in costume, though that's certainly the case, it's that it paints the world as far more simplistic than it truly is. Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved. And the closer the stories get to reality, the more troubling the ethics of it become, especially vigilantes like Batman.
And what's inherently wrong about exploring the concepts from that perspective, especially in a way that isn't explicitly "for kids?" Do you think adult fans never contemplate or are fascinated by the question "what would happen if this hero/power existed in the real world," and wanted to see someone put that on a screen to watch?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:12 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Virtually any premise that leans into the realm of fantasy is inherently silly once you stop to think about it.
It's not that it's goofy them dressing up in costume, though that's certainly the case, it's that it paints the world as far more simplistic than it truly is. Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved. And the closer the stories get to reality, the more troubling the ethics of it become, especially vigilantes like Batman.
And what's inherently wrong about exploring the concepts from that perspective, especially in a way that isn't explicitly "for kids?" Do you think adult fans never contemplate or are fascinated by the question "what would happen if this hero/power existed in the real world," and wanted to see someone put that on a screen to watch?
Nothing, but then you're in the realm of satire and deconstruction, as opposed to superheroes.
Last edited by ABED on Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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