What do you want with Broly?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:17 pm
Virtually any premise that leans into the realm of fantasy is inherently silly once you stop to think about it.
It's not that it's goofy them dressing up in costume, though that's certainly the case, it's that it paints the world as far more simplistic than it truly is. Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved. And the closer the stories get to reality, the more troubling the ethics of it become, especially vigilantes like Batman.
In the case of Batman, most modern stories that focus on him do suggest that there’s something wrong with him. That’s arguably been the case ever since Frank Miller took a stab at it. Some writers probably just do that purely for the sake of being darker and grittier, but I’d like to think that some writers do that because they’re willing to acknowledge the potentially troubling implications behind the character.

And yes, superhero stories often do emphasize a simplistic worldview, but in all honesty, any attempts for them to do otherwise tend to be met with their own backlash. That’s why a bunch of people think that Watchmen is responsible for the Dark Age of comic books, even though the entire point of it was to be a standalone satirical deconstruction that emphasizes how troubling the concept of a superhero would be if you looked at it through a real world lens. Then again, I suppose the movie might be partially to blame for coloring people’s perception of the comic, since Zack Snyder didn’t quite seem to get that you’re not supposed to view characters like Rorschach as cool or admirable.

To tie this back in with Dragon Ball, I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad idea for the story to tackle some more mature and complex ideas. The Bardock and Trunks specials did that, and they’re universally loved. Still, I do know that the franchise was conceived as a goofy story about a super strong monkey kid who looks for wish granting objects, so it’s under no obligation to go in that direction.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:12 pm
Nothing, but then you're in the realm of satire and deconstruction, as opposed to superheroes.
You realize that satire and deconstruction of a genre or franchise isn't inherently a bad thing, nor does it separate them from their respective genres or franchises, right? Hell, branching into satire and deconstruction is generally how things that were, for generations, viewed as nothing but schlock for kid's entertainment to grow to be something much more and far more important.

Like, Watchmen is explicitly a deconstructionist superhero comic book, but that doesn't change that it's still a superhero comic book.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:53 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:19 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:12 pm
Nothing, but then you're in the realm of satire and deconstruction, as opposed to superheroes.
You realize that satire and deconstruction of a genre or franchise isn't inherently a bad thing, nor does it separate them from their respective genres or franchises, right? Hell, branching into satire and deconstruction is generally how things that were, for generations, viewed as nothing but schlock for kid's entertainment to grow to be something much more and far more important.

Like, Watchmen is explicitly a deconstructionist superhero comic book, but that doesn't change that it's still a superhero comic book.
Dear god, I didn't say it's a bad thing, just that it's something inherently different. It actually does separate them from their genres.
To tie this back in with Dragon Ball, I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad idea for the story to tackle some more mature and complex ideas. The Bardock and Trunks specials did that, and they’re universally loved. Still, I do know that the franchise was conceived as a goofy story about a super strong monkey kid who looks for wish granting objects
They did that without leaving the genre or the target demo. What do you think I"m arguing for? Do you think I believe it should always remain a gag manga as initially envisioned? Because DB changed over the years and while no longer a gag manga, the target demographic never changed. The story got more earnest, but never stopped being what it was once it found its footing after the first arc - fun, action packed, martial arts series with an off beat sense of humor and a little bit of heart thrown in.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:14 pm

More to the point, I feel one of the one reasons the Bardock and Trunks specials were as impactful as they were was BECAUSE they were the exception and not the rule.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:53 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:14 pm
More to the point, I feel one of the one reasons the Bardock and Trunks specials were as impactful as they were was BECAUSE they were the exception and not the rule.
Well put. Sometimes when something does well with a little it's worth exploring more, but other times less is more.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:55 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:53 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:14 pm
More to the point, I feel one of the one reasons the Bardock and Trunks specials were as impactful as they were was BECAUSE they were the exception and not the rule.
Well put. Sometimes when something does well with a little it's worth exploring more, but other times less is more.
The only problem with cutting Broly out is there's a huge problem with the story. Someone as strong as Broly can't just be a one shot character unless he died tragically. Broly needs more otherwise the movie was a waste of time

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:01 pm

Given how things were left, Goku getting along with Broly, I don't think that screams keeping Broly around. He's no longer a threat.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved.
I don't really think this is the message that those stories primarily send. I see it more as "Look at how these folks are living their lives, see what's possible when you work hard enough and/or are fortunate enough and use your imagination!" I understand that it's a tricky issue but I think the comic books just wanna challenge the reader's worldview a bit, pushing them to look at the real world differently.

If Dragon Ball were to go into the adult realm, however, you probably wouldn't have the same issues that you might get with superhero comics. Because DB is set in a fantasy world and not the real world, you don't have any of the troubling implications of DC/Marvel and you don't have to worry about deconstruction or satire.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:53 pm
They did that without leaving the genre or the target demo. What do you think I"m arguing for? Do you think I believe it should always remain a gag manga as initially envisioned? Because DB changed over the years and while no longer a gag manga, the target demographic never changed. The story got more earnest, but never stopped being what it was once it found its footing after the first arc - fun, action packed, martial arts series with an off beat sense of humor and a little bit of heart thrown in.
I never said that you or anyone else believes it should remain a gag series. All I was saying is that I don’t think there would be anything wrong with changing things up, assuming the franchise is going to keep going on indefinitely. To be clear, I specifically said that Dragon Ball is under no obligation to suddenly tell more mature stories.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:53 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved.
I don't really think this is the message that those stories primarily send. I see it more as "Look at how these folks are living their lives, see what's possible when you work hard enough and/or are fortunate enough and use your imagination!" I understand that it's a tricky issue but I think the comic books just wanna challenge the reader's worldview a bit, pushing them to look at the real world differently.

If Dragon Ball were to go into the adult realm, however, you probably wouldn't have the same issues that you might get with superhero comics. Because DB is set in a fantasy world and not the real world, you don't have any of the troubling implications of DC/Marvel and you don't have to worry about deconstruction or satire.
Yes, when you play into the fantasy of it and allow them to be stories for children, it is about imagination and working hard and overcoming obstacles. The closer the stories get to reality the more uncomfortable underlying messages come into focus.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:25 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:53 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:45 pm
Oh if only we had some really strong resourceful person around, we'd be saved.
I don't really think this is the message that those stories primarily send. I see it more as "Look at how these folks are living their lives, see what's possible when you work hard enough and/or are fortunate enough and use your imagination!" I understand that it's a tricky issue but I think the comic books just wanna challenge the reader's worldview a bit, pushing them to look at the real world differently.

If Dragon Ball were to go into the adult realm, however, you probably wouldn't have the same issues that you might get with superhero comics. Because DB is set in a fantasy world and not the real world, you don't have any of the troubling implications of DC/Marvel and you don't have to worry about deconstruction or satire.
Yes, when you play into the fantasy of it and allow them to be stories for children, it is about imagination and working hard and overcoming obstacles. The closer the stories get to reality the more uncomfortable underlying messages come into focus.
Indeed. Superhero fiction in general is inherently fascistic if you look at it through a mature lens. Which it is why it would have been healthier for the genre if we didn’t do that like we did. Unpopular opinion here, but as much as I love Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (possibly my fav piece of fiction), part of me wishes they were never made. That way fiction for children could continue to be that.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:09 am

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:25 pm
Indeed. Superhero fiction in general is inherently fascistic if you look at it through a mature lens. Which it is why it would have been healthier for the genre if we didn’t do that like we did. Unpopular opinion here, but as much as I love Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (possibly my fav piece of fiction), part of me wishes they were never made. That way fiction for children could continue to be that.
I agree. Which is why it was unforgiveable for Akira Toriyama to take a celebrated Chinese folk tale and transform into a cynical parody that mocks many of ideas experience in Journey to the West. Art forms and stories should remain frozen in amber, after all. We can't have them change as cultures, communities, and artists are exposed to new situations. And while we're at it, lets burn every copy of Gargoyles. How dare it, a kid's show, depict a woman being shot because a friend mishandled a gun? And Avatar the Last Airbender! Depicting a son confront his father over domestic abuse? Not on my watch!
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:46 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:09 am
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:25 pm
Indeed. Superhero fiction in general is inherently fascistic if you look at it through a mature lens. Which it is why it would have been healthier for the genre if we didn’t do that like we did. Unpopular opinion here, but as much as I love Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (possibly my fav piece of fiction), part of me wishes they were never made. That way fiction for children could continue to be that.
I agree. Which is why it was unforgiveable for Akira Toriyama to take a celebrated Chinese folk tale and transform into a cynical parody that mocks many of ideas experience in Journey to the West. Art forms and stories should remain frozen in amber, after all. We can't have them change as cultures, communities, and artists are exposed to new situations. And while we're at it, lets burn every copy of Gargoyles. How dare it, a kid's show, depict a woman being shot because a friend mishandled a gun? And Avatar the Last Airbender! Depicting a son confront his father over domestic abuse? Not on my watch!
I don't see the parallel here, nor do I see how DB is cynical..
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:26 am

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:25 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:53 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm


I don't really think this is the message that those stories primarily send. I see it more as "Look at how these folks are living their lives, see what's possible when you work hard enough and/or are fortunate enough and use your imagination!" I understand that it's a tricky issue but I think the comic books just wanna challenge the reader's worldview a bit, pushing them to look at the real world differently.

If Dragon Ball were to go into the adult realm, however, you probably wouldn't have the same issues that you might get with superhero comics. Because DB is set in a fantasy world and not the real world, you don't have any of the troubling implications of DC/Marvel and you don't have to worry about deconstruction or satire.
Yes, when you play into the fantasy of it and allow them to be stories for children, it is about imagination and working hard and overcoming obstacles. The closer the stories get to reality the more uncomfortable underlying messages come into focus.
Indeed. Superhero fiction in general is inherently fascistic if you look at it through a mature lens. Which it is why it would have been healthier for the genre if we didn’t do that like we did. Unpopular opinion here, but as much as I love Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (possibly my fav piece of fiction), part of me wishes they were never made. That way fiction for children could continue to be that.
That doesn't make sense. There's plenty of superhero comics that are for all-ages, while also being plenty of titles for an older audience. I didn't realize there was a mandate that you couldn't have both.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:59 pm

kemuri07 wrote: That doesn't make sense. There's plenty of superhero comics that are for all-ages, while also being plenty of titles for an older audience. I didn't realize there was a mandate that you couldn't have both.
I’m not against comics for adults obviously. My statement about Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen was about how they effectively ruined superheroes in the long run with everyone trying to imitate them. It’s a real issue that those smarter than me have discussed. Stop looking to children’s material for adult programming. Fucking manbabies. If you want to enjoy children’s shows then you should enjoy them on their terms. NOT yours. Get it now?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:27 pm

'Adult situations' outside of violence do exist, after all. Broli is such a blank canvas--insofar defined only by his reactions to others--that he can still grow as a character. He's at heart a good boi, though, and I want to see him be a good boi that helps others. I think a character like that might be too hard for Toriyama to write, though.

And get ass-plowed by Cheelai with a strap.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:46 am
I don't see the parallel here, nor do I see how DB is cynical..
Toriyama is easily one of the most cynical humorists out there. Cynicism is baked into everything he's ever made and it is especially clear in Dragon Ball.
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:59 pm
I’m not against comics for adults obviously. My statement about Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen was about how they effectively ruined superheroes in the long run with everyone trying to imitate them. It’s a real issue that those smarter than me have discussed. Stop looking to children’s material for adult programming. Fucking manbabies. If you want to enjoy children’s shows then you should enjoy them on their terms. NOT yours. Get it now?
Nobody tried to imitate Watchman. The closest thing to a Watchman imitation we have is Black Summer and that was spawned from the post-9/11 backlash to ever growing state powers.

And you really really don't seem to understand how comic books ended up where they are today. It wasn't as if Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore (and everyone else dipshits who hate principled writers like to get cross with) showed up and suddenly super hero stories became grimdark. There had always been adult fantasy and adult scifi which shared a huge amount of overlap with Superhero stories. Heavy Metal magazine had long been printing stories that, bare breasts aside, weren't all that different than what Detective Comics were doing. When the jump came, it wasn't adults trying to force themselves into children's media.

What exactly even is your problem exactly? Dragon Ball has gags where the punchline is Roshi just raped some chick but heaven forbid it try to be a little more adult in how it handles some character arcs. You're the one who needs to get over themselves.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:38 pm

Fiction for children is still made, it's just that fiction for adults is often remixed from fiction for children.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:47 pm

hahaha...I guess I never thought of it but DB is pretty cynical. Especially in its origins where the comedy comes from the fact that nearly every single character is pretty morally reprehensible.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:52 pm

I mean, gosh, totes look at Mister Satan: he did nothing during the Cell Game but got all the credit and rode it to riches. Even in the Majin Buu arc the people cry out his name like a savior: "SATAN!!!!!"

Dragon Ball is its own sense of perverted and cynical.
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