What do you want with Broly?

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:55 pm

I know I got some flack last year when I suggested that Dragon Ball might be an inherently cynical franchise, and while I will acknowledge that I might’ve been exaggerating, I do still think the argument has some merit. Just look at the very beginning of the series. In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep. We also can’t forget the Muten Roshi, who, despite playing the role of the wise old man, is also a dirty pervert who wants a 16 year old girl who show him her panties.

Let’s be honest here, Toriyama used to specialize in mean spirited and provocative humor. That stuff does get toned down significantly as the series progresses, but the man used to love himself some edgy humor.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:05 pm

Toriyama is the same guy who joked about peeping on a theoretical future daughter, so I think that sort of poisonous personality would kind of have to be inserted into Dragon Ball one way or another.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:45 pm

Just saying it's cynical then restating it doesn't prove your point.
In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep.
That doesn't prove cynicism. They arc over the course of the story.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:18 pm

ABED wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:45 pm
Just saying it's cynical then restating it doesn't prove your point.
In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep.
That doesn't prove cynicism. They arc over the course of the story.
They’re still pretty morally questionable people by the end of the first arc. As I said, the series does mellow out overtime when it comes to its mean spirited and provocative humor, but in the first arc, it’s a relatively raunchy comedy where most of the characters are jerks. Ironically, Goku was the most moral person in the story at that point.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:23 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:55 pm
I know I got some flack last year when I suggested that Dragon Ball might be an inherently cynical franchise, and while I will acknowledge that I might’ve been exaggerating, I do still think the argument has some merit. Just look at the very beginning of the series. In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep. We also can’t forget the Muten Roshi, who, despite playing the role of the wise old man, is also a dirty pervert who wants a 16 year old girl who show him her panties.

Let’s be honest here, Toriyama used to specialize in mean spirited and provocative humor. That stuff does get toned down significantly as the series progresses, but the man used to love himself some edgy humor.
None of that is cynical and you keep misusing the concept.

Yamucha being a bandit doesn’t make the series cynical

Oolong and Roshi being perverts for the sake of comedy (however misguided some aspects of the comedy where) doesn’t make it cynical

And Bulma being portrayed as temperamental and shallow doesn’t make the series cynical.

Your definition of cynical seems to be “a lack of rainbows and sunshines and care bear stares” Yamucha being a bandit is to provide the story with an antagonist until Pilaf comes in and he and Goku have to join forces.

Roshi being a lecherous old man is the joke. Haha this dirty old man is a martial arts legend.

Oolong being a pervert is a joke. This pig boy that’s even younger than Goku has the mind of a dirty middle aged man (making him a foil to the innocent and childlike Goku)

Bulma and Yamucha get their wizard of oz moment when they realize they don’t need a wish granting dragon to give them what they want. Goku goes off to train with his grandpa’s master and Oolong well he got panties. It’s not even approaching cynical.

And I’m hardly defending Bulma being treated like a sex toy and Oolong trying to molest her but most of the humor is juvenile not really edgy. It’s mostly built on “Haha girls have different parts than boys” its grade school level humor.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:30 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:23 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:55 pm
I know I got some flack last year when I suggested that Dragon Ball might be an inherently cynical franchise, and while I will acknowledge that I might’ve been exaggerating, I do still think the argument has some merit. Just look at the very beginning of the series. In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep. We also can’t forget the Muten Roshi, who, despite playing the role of the wise old man, is also a dirty pervert who wants a 16 year old girl who show him her panties.

Let’s be honest here, Toriyama used to specialize in mean spirited and provocative humor. That stuff does get toned down significantly as the series progresses, but the man used to love himself some edgy humor.
None of that is cynical and you keep misusing the concept.

Yamucha being a bandit doesn’t make the series cynical

Oolong and Roshi being perverts for the sake of comedy (however misguided some aspects of the comedy where) doesn’t make it cynical

And Bulma being portrayed as temperamental and shallow doesn’t make the series cynical.

Your definition of cynical seems to be “a lack of rainbows and sunshines and care bear stares” Yamucha being a bandit is to provide the story with an antagonist until Pilaf comes in and he and Goku have to join forces.

Roshi being a lecherous old man is the joke. Haha this dirty old man is a martial arts legend.

Oolong being a pervert is a joke. This pig boy that’s even younger than Goku has the mind of a dirty middle aged man (making him a foil to the innocent and childlike Goku)

Bulma and Yamucha get their wizard of oz moment when they realize they don’t need a wish granting dragon to give them what they want. Goku goes off to train with his grandpa’s master and Oolong well he got panties. It’s not even approaching cynical.

And I’m hardly defending Bulma being treated like a sex toy and Oolong trying to molest her but most of the humor is juvenile not really edgy. It’s mostly built on “Haha girls have different parts than boys” its grade school level humor.
This is a straw man. No, I don’t think that something has to be squeaky clean and overly cutesy in order to not be cynical. I’m simply saying that the first arc of the series has no real point to it, outside of the humor that’s derived from how weird and sleazy a lot of these characters are. It’s not trying to say anything positive or meaningful. It’s just a silly gag story where a ragtag bunch of misfits end up working together for their own self-interests.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:42 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:30 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:23 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:55 pm
I know I got some flack last year when I suggested that Dragon Ball might be an inherently cynical franchise, and while I will acknowledge that I might’ve been exaggerating, I do still think the argument has some merit. Just look at the very beginning of the series. In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep. We also can’t forget the Muten Roshi, who, despite playing the role of the wise old man, is also a dirty pervert who wants a 16 year old girl who show him her panties.

Let’s be honest here, Toriyama used to specialize in mean spirited and provocative humor. That stuff does get toned down significantly as the series progresses, but the man used to love himself some edgy humor.
None of that is cynical and you keep misusing the concept.

Yamucha being a bandit doesn’t make the series cynical

Oolong and Roshi being perverts for the sake of comedy (however misguided some aspects of the comedy where) doesn’t make it cynical

And Bulma being portrayed as temperamental and shallow doesn’t make the series cynical.

Your definition of cynical seems to be “a lack of rainbows and sunshines and care bear stares” Yamucha being a bandit is to provide the story with an antagonist until Pilaf comes in and he and Goku have to join forces.

Roshi being a lecherous old man is the joke. Haha this dirty old man is a martial arts legend.

Oolong being a pervert is a joke. This pig boy that’s even younger than Goku has the mind of a dirty middle aged man (making him a foil to the innocent and childlike Goku)

Bulma and Yamucha get their wizard of oz moment when they realize they don’t need a wish granting dragon to give them what they want. Goku goes off to train with his grandpa’s master and Oolong well he got panties. It’s not even approaching cynical.

And I’m hardly defending Bulma being treated like a sex toy and Oolong trying to molest her but most of the humor is juvenile not really edgy. It’s mostly built on “Haha girls have different parts than boys” its grade school level humor.
This is a straw man. No, I don’t think that something has to be squeaky clean and overly cutesy in order to not be cynical. I’m simply saying that the first arc of the series has no real point to it, outside of the humor that’s derived from how weird and sleazy a lot of these characters are. It’s not trying to say anything positive or meaningful. It’s just a silly gag story where a ragtag bunch of misfits end up working together for their own self-interests.
It’s a take on Journey to the West by way of the comedic stylings of the manga author of Dr.Slump.

Why does it need some moralistic preaching story about friendship and togetherness?

It is a silly gag story. Correct. But that doesn’t make it cynical.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:50 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:42 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:30 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:23 pm


None of that is cynical and you keep misusing the concept.

Yamucha being a bandit doesn’t make the series cynical

Oolong and Roshi being perverts for the sake of comedy (however misguided some aspects of the comedy where) doesn’t make it cynical

And Bulma being portrayed as temperamental and shallow doesn’t make the series cynical.

Your definition of cynical seems to be “a lack of rainbows and sunshines and care bear stares” Yamucha being a bandit is to provide the story with an antagonist until Pilaf comes in and he and Goku have to join forces.

Roshi being a lecherous old man is the joke. Haha this dirty old man is a martial arts legend.

Oolong being a pervert is a joke. This pig boy that’s even younger than Goku has the mind of a dirty middle aged man (making him a foil to the innocent and childlike Goku)

Bulma and Yamucha get their wizard of oz moment when they realize they don’t need a wish granting dragon to give them what they want. Goku goes off to train with his grandpa’s master and Oolong well he got panties. It’s not even approaching cynical.

And I’m hardly defending Bulma being treated like a sex toy and Oolong trying to molest her but most of the humor is juvenile not really edgy. It’s mostly built on “Haha girls have different parts than boys” its grade school level humor.
This is a straw man. No, I don’t think that something has to be squeaky clean and overly cutesy in order to not be cynical. I’m simply saying that the first arc of the series has no real point to it, outside of the humor that’s derived from how weird and sleazy a lot of these characters are. It’s not trying to say anything positive or meaningful. It’s just a silly gag story where a ragtag bunch of misfits end up working together for their own self-interests.
It’s a take on Journey to the West by way of the comedic stylings of the manga author of Dr.Slump.

Why does it need some moralistic preaching story about friendship and togetherness?

It is a silly gag story. Correct. But that doesn’t make it cynical.
I never said it needed any kind of moralistic preaching. I certainly never suggested that there has to be some obnoxious message about friendship (which is a trope that I absolutely despise, FYI). I didn’t even say that it being a silly gag story is a bad thing. All I was saying is that it’s not a story that’s centered around decent people. It’s not really a story of good vs evil. That’s not a bad thing either. It’s just something worth noting.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:53 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:18 pm
ABED wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:45 pm
Just saying it's cynical then restating it doesn't prove your point.
In the very first arc, our main protagonists include a spoiled and shrill teenage girl who wants to find the Dragon Balls so she could wish for a boyfriend, a greedy desert bandit and a perverted pig child who drugs the female protagonist so that he could fondle her in her sleep.
That doesn't prove cynicism. They arc over the course of the story.
They’re still pretty morally questionable people by the end of the first arc. As I said, the series does mellow out overtime when it comes to its mean spirited and provocative humor, but in the first arc, it’s a relatively raunchy comedy where most of the characters are jerks. Ironically, Goku was the most moral person in the story at that point.
You keep using the word without providing context. They aren't jerks at the end. They all become friends, and Yamcha puts his bandit ways behind him. Hell, Oolong could've made a wish for anything and he wishes for something as innocuous as a pair of panties. Your definition is lacking.

Cynicism can be summed up by this Dr. Cox gem, "Some people believe that all people are soft and sweet and gooey inside but people are really bastard coated bastards with bastard fillings." When the chips are down, Goku and his newfound friends are there for each other. Hardly what I would call cynical.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:01 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:50 pm
All I was saying is that it’s not a story that’s centered around decent people. It’s not really a story of good vs evil. That’s not a bad thing either. It’s just something worth noting.
Here’s the thing they’re not squeaky clean like the Power Rangers or the Super Friends or whatever but they’re not irredeemable reprehensible people either.

Oolong is a pervert and a coward but he does end up saving the world (albeit it in a way that he gets what he wants)

Yamucha stops being a bandit and (mostly) gets over his social anxiety around women.

Bulma becomes considerably nicer to Goku giving him her dragon radar so he can find his grandpa’s dragon ball and not wanting Goku to know he unknowingly killed his grandfather.

Roshi becomes more paternal toward Goku when seeing his abilities first hand and finding out he’s the adopted grandson of his prized student and offers to train him (its the following arc where Roshi really gets to shine)

Just because the characters have vices and selfish desires doesn’t mean the story is cynical.

When I think cynical I think something like Bojack Horseman or Heathers.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:43 am

Yeah these characters are pretty awful individuals initially and for a long time after the first arc ends are still notably flawed. Probably until the end of the series really. Oolong and Roshi remain shamelessly perverted, Yamcha remains broke and unemployed, Bulma remains Bulma. They do improve somewhat over the course of the series and aren't total scumbags or anything like that, but they are certainly anti-role models. And that's ok, protagonists can be shitty folks and still work in a story.

I don't think "cynical" is the term to be used here, but I do think that this might be connected to what Toriyama was saying about that "poison that slips in and out of the shadows from time to time" or whatever it was. I think he prefers the flawed and disturbing aspects of the story and characters over the morally upstanding stuff.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:02 am

No one is claiming shitty people can't be protagonists of a story. We're arguing that the story isn't cynical. I would argue that even with their flaws, they have many virtues that people can look up to. Bulma's intelligence and independence, Muten Roshi's wisdom, and Goku's drive to get better. The best word to described the characters is definitely "flawed". Flawed is more than fine, but flawed protagonists isn't the criterion of a cynical work.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:04 am

The universe of Dragon Ball is led by an amoral child god who deletes whole universes on whims. The god of destruction destroys planets that don't serve him worthwhile food. And the protagonist is a brain damaged hick, who likes to punch things, and mostly . At every turn in Dragon Ball sincerity and altruism are mocked.

If anyone here is unfamilar with the definition of cynical please go check your nearest dictionary. This is not a complicated question. Cynicism is a distrust of others and a lack of faith in humanity as a whole. Cynics see people as fundamentally inept, stupid, and ruled by base instincts. The cynical also hold that aspiring towards greater morality is a fool's errand and we should focus on our own immediate wants/lusts. That is exactly what we see in Dragon Ball and have seen in Dragon Ball since its earliest days. The show they like is cynical.

And why wouldn't it be? Wuxia is a famously cynical genre and Toriyama himself is a cynical comic.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by ABED » Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:56 am

Well that was pretty good, but considering good wins out all the time and the gods don't usually actively participate in the story, I'd hardly call that cynical. Evil is punished and virtue is usually rewarded. Zen Oh doesn't lead anything. He comes in at the very end and holds a tournament to find out if mortals are worth saving. Ultimately 17 proves they are by making a wish that isn't self centered.
That is exactly what we see in Dragon Ball
This is of course, BS.

I don't see how sincerity is mocked. If anything, the one thing DB doesn't lack is belief in people, even flawed ones. It shows even the worst of us is capable of change for the better.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:08 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:04 am
The universe of Dragon Ball is led by an amoral child god who deletes whole universes on whims
See Abed’s post
. The god of destruction destroys planets that don't serve him worthwhile food.
Which is treated as a farce. That this God can be set off by a fat pink blob eating his pudding cups. That’s not cynicism that’s a gag series being a gag series
And the protagonist is a brain damaged hick, who likes to punch things, and mostly .
The protagonist always makes friends with his rivals. Him being kind of dumb and simple minded isn’t treated as a bad thing. It’s just oh this is how it is
At every turn in Dragon Ball sincerity and altruism are mocked.
Goku wanting to bring Turtle to the sea while Bulma wants to abandon him and keep going rewards Goku with his kinto un and leads them to a dragon ball

Gyumao becomes a much nicer King after being scolded by Roshi

Oolong, despite being a coward, prevents Pilaf from wishing for world domination.

Goku and Kuririn become friends through turtle hermit training

Roshi helps Nam bring water to his village. And Nam fighting for something other than selfish wants is treated as admirable.

Hachan is treated as a failure for not wanting to hurt people. His keeping the dragon ball hidden saves the villagers life who the Red Ribbon army was going to execute after finding the dragon ball. And he becomes part of the village

Goku goes to get the dragon balls from the Red Ribbon army so he can wish his friend Upa’s dad back to life. Even though he’s risking losing his grandpa’s dragon ball the thing that lead him on his current journey in the first place

Tenshinhan goes from arrogant selfish a-hole who wants to be a killer to a much nicer guy because of Roshi’s mentorship.

Goku risk his life and goes to get the Super Divine Water that might kill him so he can stop Piccolo.

Goku goes to see God to have his friends brought back to life

God becomes jaded at humanity and wishes he never made the dragon balls. Roshi tells him how the dragon balls had impacted people’s lives for the better and the gang never would have met otherwise


Piccolo decides to train the son of his archenemy in spite of the fact that it wouldn’t be in his interest to train someone who could surpass him and he knows this.

Piccolo sacrifices his life for Gohan and Gohan’s kindness toward Piccolo redeems him

The heroes go to Namek to find new dragon balls to bring their fallen friends back to life

Future Trunks continues to help the Z warriors even after realizing saving their future won’t change his present.

Even though Kuririn has fallen in love with 18 when he thinks she and 17 are a couple he’d rather have her be happy.

Gohan’s selflessness and good nature is what draws Videl to him

Mr.Satan uses his fame to get everyone to lend a hand to help Goku with his Genki Dama that finally stops Boo.


But please tell me again how Dragon Ball is a series where altruism and sincerity are mocked at every turn.






. Cynicism is a distrust of others and a lack of faith in humanity as a whole. Cynics see people as fundamentally inept, stupid, and ruled by base instincts. The cynical also hold that aspiring towards greater morality is a fool's errand and we should focus on our own immediate wants/lusts. That is exactly what we see in Dragon Ball and have seen in Dragon Ball since its earliest days. The show they like is cynical.
And you’re watching/reading a completely different series than what is presented. Dragon Ball is anything but cynical.
And why wouldn't it be? Wuxia is a famously cynical genre
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by kemuri07 » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:17 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:56 am
Well that was pretty good, but considering good wins out all the time and the gods don't usually actively participate in the story, I'd hardly call that cynical. Evil is punished and virtue is usually rewarded. Zen Oh doesn't lead anything. He comes in at the very end and holds a tournament to find out if mortals are worth saving. Ultimately 17 proves they are by making a wish that isn't self centered.
That is exactly what we see in Dragon Ball
This is of course, BS.

I don't see how sincerity is mocked. If anything, the one thing DB doesn't lack is belief in people, even flawed ones. It shows even the worst of us is capable of change for the better.
Ok yeah...but you're missing the point. And we've already said that the show mellows out from that initial tone post-Pilaf when it starts settling into being an action-adventure show. The first arc of Dragon Ball is very different from anything that follows, and I absolutely agree that the first story arc of Dragon Ball has a mean streak in a way that the rest of Dragon Ball, and the entirety of the franchise, does not. That's literally what anyone is saying.

Because while, yeah, the Pilaf arc ends with everyone going their separate way and being fairly decent towards each other, nearly every moment up to that point is most of the characters (particularly Oolong and Bulma) being terrible to everyone around them. Goku is the "good one" but that's only because he's a complete fucking moron.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:02 pm

OK, so these aren't actual responses. I could just as easily compile a similar list for Blame! or Vampire Hunter D or Berserk, all series which are explicit in their cynicism. Ditto wuxia novels like The Smiling, Proud Wanderer where we even get a happy ending for the protagonists who abandon the world of politics and go get married. Cynical stories aren't going to be nihilist stories which seems to be what you two think cynicism tranlastes into. Usually the writer of a cynical story is trying to find things worth holding on to and arguing in favor of those things. Now Toriyama isn't one to proselytize but you do see a familar mantra throughout DB's arcs. 'Work towards your own selfish ends and don't stress the larger world too much.' And with that becoming the de facto mantra of most shonen since Dragon Ball's publication I don't think I'm just imagining things either.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:00 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:04 am
The universe of Dragon Ball is led by an amoral child god who deletes whole universes on whims. The god of destruction destroys planets that don't serve him worthwhile food. And the protagonist is a brain damaged hick, who likes to punch things, and mostly . At every turn in Dragon Ball sincerity and altruism are mocked.
So then I guess the true claim here is that Dragon Ball Super, and not the original series, is the cynical one? Otherwise it seems like you wanted to use the most absurd and exaggerated examples possible to prove cynicism, and that doesn't really reflect the rest of DB.

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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:31 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:00 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:04 am
The universe of Dragon Ball is led by an amoral child god who deletes whole universes on whims. The god of destruction destroys planets that don't serve him worthwhile food. And the protagonist is a brain damaged hick, who likes to punch things, and mostly . At every turn in Dragon Ball sincerity and altruism are mocked.
So then I guess the true claim here is that Dragon Ball Super, and not the original series, is the cynical one? Otherwise it seems like you wanted to use the most absurd and exaggerated examples possible to prove cynicism, and that doesn't really reflect the rest of DB.
I was giving the most dramatic examples but there's way more examples in OG Dragon Ball of cynicism than in the post Freeza iteration of the series. Even after setting aside the first Dragon Ball hunt, you're still left with a universe where the gods range from indifferent to incompetent, and humanity is depicted as extremely stupid, gullible, and willing to descend into brutal violence at the drop of a hat. Then there's Bulma's whole relationship with sex and sex appeal and Roshi, the supposed wise hermit, being a lecherous old man, who pops a stiffy whenever a pretty girl walks by.

These aren't examples of "well things are bad but hey there's still positives" as everyone seems to be arguing. This is Toriyama mocking social mores and morality. It's like his comedy in Lady Red; it's actually not a big deal that Red gets raped by every big guy she meets because there's good money in getting raped for a living! It's a joke, not something you're supposed to see the bright spot in.
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Re: What do you want with Broly?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 31, 2020 2:04 pm

On the subject of Zen-Oh, it should be pointed out that the whole idea of the Tournament of Power being a test was Toei’s idea, not Toriyama’s.

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