Endings

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: Endings

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:59 pm

It's not the sole factor. It's important but plenty of crappy shows stay on the air. To say otherwise is asinine. And it sucked because you can't get anything more out of the premise of teenager skipping school.
Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:20 pm
Regardless of whether you meant it in relation to our previous arguments or not, it doesn't change that you straight up said that a franchise that can't tell different types of stories, can't still be expected to continue on. (in DB's case, it's supposed to go on forever or until people stop buying the merch at this point)
I didn't straight up say anything of the sort. You have twisted my meaning to justify whatever the hell you wanted. I didn't say it or imply it. To be a franchise, it can't be a one off story. DB is a long running serialized story. To be a TV show, the show needs to be able to keep asking questions and find ways to keep the main character from achieving their goal. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall except you get more from the wall.
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Re: Endings

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:59 pm
It's not the sole factor. It's important but plenty of crappy shows stay on the air. To say otherwise is asinine. And it sucked because you can't get anything more out of the premise of teenager skipping school.
A Bueller show doesn't have to just be stories of him skipping school. Regardless, good writing could have carried the series to longer than 1 season. It had the initial viewership, but people dropped off because the writing was pure garbage, like a most cash grab TV sequels.
I didn't straight up say anything of the sort. You have twisted my meaning to justify whatever the hell you wanted. I didn't say it or imply it. To be a franchise, it can't be a one off story. DB is a long running serialized story. To be a TV show, the show needs to be able to keep asking questions and find ways to keep the main character from achieving their goal. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall except you get more from the wall.
Some do, but most get cancelled and we already know that isn't a safe bet for continued content if it stops bringing in and maintaining viewers. We may still see another dark age for the franchise (where nothing but cash grab games only 1m people worldwide are buying come out of the franchise) in our lifetimes. Idk about you, but that's the last thing I want for DB.

And why can't a franchise be made of a series of one-offs that take place in the same universe? There's nothing that inherently makes that true and we do have anthology series franchises that prove that it can work. Regardless, you're looking at it from the perspective of a single show being the whole franchise when that's not necessarily the case, nor does it need to be the case for franchises like Pokemon and Dragon Ball.

I feel the same way about talking to you because you don't listen to a thing you're told. When asked for examples of ways to evolve or grow the franchise to more than it's initial audience and demographic, you've dismissed every one on the grounds that you wouldn't be interested in watching that, so why would anyone else?

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Re: Endings

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 pm

A Bueller show doesn't have to just be stories of him skipping school. Regardless, good writing could have carried the series to longer than 1 season. It had the initial viewership, but people dropped off because the writing was pure garbage, like a most cash grab TV sequels.
It's called Ferris Beuller's Day Off. And it all doesn't come down to just good writing. It's also casting and intangibles. The premise doesn't lend itself more than a single story. It is SO naive to believe all it takes is good writing. Hell, many shows take time to find their footing. Seinfeld took into its second season to find its groove and longer than that to catch on.

You take even the most tenuous of examples as proof that something can be done. Anthology series are great, but that's not Dragon Ball.

I listen, I just don't agree. Your entitlement to being fed Dragon Ball from cradle to grave tells me all I need to know.
And why can't a franchise be made of a series of one-offs that take place in the same universe?
It's stuff like this that makes me thing YOU aren't reading. Anthologies are great. A series of one offs are fine. The Twilight Zone was exactly that, but it's not what I'm talking about, and more importantly it's not Dragon Ball. All I said was that one off is not proof that Goku Jr is capable of carrying an entire series. There's nothing to explore with him that we haven't seen DB do before.
Idk about you, but that's the last thing I want for DB.
Why? Why not let stories end gracefully? And how do you not know how I feel given the entire purpose of this thread.
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Re: Endings

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:38 pm

Endings are important and necessary for any kind of narrative. But what's just as important is making sure the ending is good and appropriate for the kind of the story that has been told. The last thing you want is for a story to end with several lost plot threads that were never resolved or to have a story abruptly end or have an ending which is so jarringly tone deaf.

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Re: Endings

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:05 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:38 pm
The last thing you want is for a story to end with several lost plot threads that were never resolved or to have a story abruptly end or have an ending which is so jarringly tone deaf.
I think another thing worth mentioning is timing. You could have an amazing ending, but it can lose a lot of its impact if it comes after the story being dragged past its prime. Look at GT's ending as an example, it's really well received on its own, but the journey to get there is a painful one.

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Re: Endings

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:05 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:42 pm
It's called Ferris Beuller's Day Off. <snip> The premise doesn't lend itself more than a single story.
Right, but the "Ferris Beuller" part is all that's necessary to make a series of stories in a Ferris Beuller franchise. The fact that the show, despite not being a sequel to the film, got high initial ratings and only dropped off when it became clear the writing was bad should be enough of an indicator to you that there was initial interest in exploring Bueller's world and life beyond that one day and premise.
You take even the most tenuous of examples as proof that something can be done. Anthology series are great, but that's not Dragon Ball.
The point is that Dragon Ball, as a franchise not a singular manga or anime, can become one. There's no inherent need for it to solely remain only the story about Goku or even the Saiyans.
Your entitlement to being fed Dragon Ball from cradle to grave tells me all I need to know.
The fact that you can't tell the difference between entitlement and a desire are two wholly different things is more alarming about you than anything I've said so far.
It's stuff like this that makes me thing YOU aren't reading.
I honestly feel the same way given how much you've actively been ignoring the fact that Dragon Ball isn't a singular piece of literary art, but a for-profit franchise that's intended, at this point, to go on forever (or at least as long as Toei can keep it the exponential growth of the fandom and income surrounding the franchise).
All I said was that one off is not proof that Goku Jr is capable of carrying an entire series.
And what we're trying to say is that just because it was a one-off, doesn't mean there isn't more you can do with the characters or premise. Also, even if DB told a vaguely similar story, that doesn't mean there's no value in exploring a new character's life.
Why? Why not let stories end gracefully?
When they're meant to be just one off stories with a definitive beginning, middle, and end, then absolutely nothing. When it's meant to be a continual money generator like modern Dragon Ball, it's a wholly different story to just make an arbitrary cut off point where you say "nope, this is all the content we can/will come up with for this franchise and that's going to be the end of it." There's just something you're inherently not understanding about the fact that Dragon Ball isn't like some novel someone like Tolkien wrote to get his artistic vision on paper
And how do you not know how I feel given the entire purpose of this thread.
I know how you feel, I just don't care because I understand that how YOU feel is irrelevant to the future of the franchise or what Toei and Toriyama decided to do with it. You can want it to end all you want, but so long as those in power say otherwise, those of us who want it to continue aren't in the wrong for wanting to see it continue or grow and expand beyond what Z devolved the series into.

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Re: Endings

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:23 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:05 pm
and only dropped off when it became clear the writing was bad should be enough of an indicator to you that there was initial interest in exploring Bueller's world and life beyond that one day and premise.
Or, I dunno, it was a popular movie so of course it would gather interest based on name brand recognition and not because there was an actual need or desire to explore Bueller's world and life?
The point is that Dragon Ball, as a franchise not a singular manga or anime, can become one. There's no inherent need for it to solely remain only the story about Goku or even the Saiyans.
The closest we've seen to what you want is Dragon Ball Heroes. Which is hot garbage so...

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Re: Endings

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:31 pm

Everything to do with Heroes exists solely as promotional material. It shouldn’t be used as an indication of how Dragon Ball would fare if it tried something different.

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Re: Endings

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:23 pm
Or, I dunno, it was a popular movie so of course it would gather interest based on name brand recognition and not because there was an actual need or desire to explore Bueller's world and life?

The closest we've seen to what you want is Dragon Ball Heroes. Which is hot garbage so...
Why tune in to see a show about a given character if not to see more of their story?

Heroes isn't close to what I want (the series growing and expanding to tell more and different stories and appeal to more demographics than just the guys who are satisfied just watching people hit each other progressively harder) it's just a promotional material for a video game that just throws random legacy characters together to fight and display new forms without any rhyme or reason. If it was actually trying to tell a story and was executed well, we'd all have a totally different opinion on Heroes.

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Re: Endings

Post by TheNingen » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:50 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:36 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:23 pm
Or, I dunno, it was a popular movie so of course it would gather interest based on name brand recognition and not because there was an actual need or desire to explore Bueller's world and life?

The closest we've seen to what you want is Dragon Ball Heroes. Which is hot garbage so...
Why tune in to see a show about a given character if not to see more of their story?

Heroes isn't close to what I want (the series growing and expanding to tell more and different stories and appeal to more demographics than just the guys who are satisfied just watching people hit each other progressively harder) it's just a promotional material for a video game that just throws random legacy characters together to fight and display new forms without any rhyme or reason. If it was actually trying to tell a story and was executed well, we'd all have a totally different opinion on Heroes.
I don't know...maybe because they like the character? The word name brand recognition was used, I don't know how you couldn't put two and two together.

People go in to see characters they like. Stories are icing. People watch Dragon Ball for Goku and his friends. People see Batman and Superman for Batman and Superman. It's really that simple. If the story of Aladdin was so popular, people wouldn't give a shit that Will Smith was Genie and not vehemently defend Robin William's portrayal of the character.

We even see it with Broly. He was brought back because people like the character, not his story. You're out of your depth here. As per usual.

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Re: Endings

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:06 pm

The fact that you can't tell the difference between entitlement and a desire are two wholly different things is more alarming about you than anything I've said so far.
You are not exuding passion, you have entitlement. Claiming the series abandons fans by not growing up with them is entitlement. Your whole point about shows catering to their audience is entitlement, not passion. Passion's great, you're talking about something else, as though artists owe it to you to cater to what you want as though it wasn't always a voluntary transaction. They make what they want and you either watch or don't. That's how it works and how it's always worked.
When it's meant to be a continual money generator like modern Dragon Ball, it's a wholly different story to just make an arbitrary cut off point where you say "nope, this is all the content we can/will come up with for this franchise and that's going to be the end of it." There's just something you're inherently not understanding about the fact that Dragon Ball isn't like some novel someone like Tolkien wrote to get his artistic vision on paper
I get the point of franchises! The only reason they exist is because people can't let stories end. DB is absolutely the same thing. The Lord of the Rings is just as much a franchise as DB. The fact that it's a franchise doesn't mean it's not a story first and foremost. I understand why they do what they do, I don't agree with it.
(the series growing and expanding to tell more and different stories and appeal to more demographics than just the guys who are satisfied just watching people hit each other progressively harder).
In other words, DB in name only.
And what we're trying to say is that just because it was a one-off, doesn't mean there isn't more you can do with the characters or premise. Also, even if DB told a vaguely similar story, that doesn't mean there's no value in exploring a new character's life.
There's some but not enough given how much ground has been tread. At this point, close the book and start something new even if it's heavily influenced by DB. Watchmen was originally going to use characters DC had acquired from Charlton comics, but when Moore and Gibbons weren't allowed, they created their own who were simply influenced by the existing characters. That allowed them to go wherever the hell they wanted. People now are so afraid of original works not finding an audience because fans are afraid to let go.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Endings

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:00 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Everything to do with Heroes exists solely as promotional material. It shouldn’t be used as an indication of how Dragon Ball would fare if it tried something different.
"Core games", like a "core series", don't promote anything, though. In this case, the Heroes arcade it's there solely to be played, like a series it's there to be watched/read, "core" (lack of a better way to say it) stuff can't promote itself. Dragon Ball Heroes is ten years old now, its popularity and sales grow fast as we blink, otherwise it would have failed by now. If it can't be used as an indication it would fare well, I don't know what would.

What? If Dragon Ball tried something slightly similar to Dragon Ball Heroes it would see a noticeable decrease in something as if it was meant to happen? That scenario can happen under one very specific circumstance, and that is "Akira Toriyama" name on it. Without that name, many would ignore it because "it doesn't come from the author" (people already do that, as if the author could guarantee quality...). But once you have that name, it's success guaranteed, or at least financially speaking, see the latest three movies and Dragon Ball Super.
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Re: Endings

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:41 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:00 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:31 pm
Everything to do with Heroes exists solely as promotional material. It shouldn’t be used as an indication of how Dragon Ball would fare if it tried something different.
"Core games", like a "core series", don't promote anything, though. In this case, the Heroes arcade it's there solely to be played, like a series it's there to be watched/read, "core" (lack of a better way to say it) stuff can't promote itself. Dragon Ball Heroes is ten years old now, its popularity and sales grow fast as we blink, otherwise it would have failed by now. If it can't be used as an indication it would fare well, I don't know what would.

What? If Dragon Ball tried something slightly similar to Dragon Ball Heroes it would see a noticeable decrease in something as if it was meant to happen? That scenario can happen under one very specific circumstance, and that is "Akira Toriyama" name on it. Without that name, many would ignore it because "it doesn't come from the author" (people already do that, as if the author could guarantee quality...). But once you have that name, it's success guaranteed, or at least financially speaking, see the latest three movies and Dragon Ball Super.
I was specifically referring to the anime and manga, which do exist to promote the arcade game.

What are you talking about? When I said that Heroes doesn’t provide an indication of how Dragon Ball would fare if it tried something different, I was talking in terms of quality, not financial success. I was saying that just because Heroes isn’t good, it doesn’t mean that Dragon Ball proper shouldn’t even bother doing something outside of its comfort zone.

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Re: Endings

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:44 pm

TheNingen wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:50 pm
People go in to see characters they like. Stories are icing. People watch Dragon Ball for Goku and his friends. People see Batman and Superman for Batman and Superman. It's really that simple. If the story of Aladdin was so popular, people wouldn't give a shit that Will Smith was Genie and not vehemently defend Robin William's portrayal of the character.
lol what? Read this back to yourself. If any of this were true how could series like Star Trek or Battle Star Galactica or Mobile Suit Gundam or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure exist? How would revivals even be possible if all people cared about were the character and not the story they were in and how well the writers/director/actor handled them?
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

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Re: Endings

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm

Stories are inseparable from characters. Stories are just what characters do and say. But generally speaking, it would mean that even if the stories weren't up to snuff, if the characters are enjoyable, then even if the stories aren't as good, it's still enjoyable spending time with them. TV is pretty much built on that idea.
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Re: Endings

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:57 pm

TheNingen wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:50 pm
I don't know...maybe because they like the character? The word name brand recognition was used, I don't know how you couldn't put two and two together.
That's kind of my point; people didn't just tune in to see the same premise as the film in TV version, they wanted more interesting stories involving the characters. That's not universally true with series that aren't explicitly named after a character or can't exist without said character. DB can go on without Goku and there are countless fans who would love to see it happen.
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:53 pm
Dear god, I didn't say it's a bad thing, just that it's something inherently different. It actually does separate them from their genres.
You didn't explicitly state it, but that's how you've been acting and posting, like asking the series to change to do something else with it's premise and world is inherently a bad thing that Toei should never consider when working on making DB endless.

And no, Watchmen is still, regardless of it's nature, still a superhero comic book story. It is still in that genre and cannot be taken out of it because it aims to do something other than tell colorful stories about heroism.
ABED wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:49 pm
Stories are inseparable from characters.
And the problem here is that you can't seem to separate a franchise's initial work's story from the franchise itself. They aren't mutually tied to one another and unable to change.

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Re: Endings

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:09 pm

Zeon_Grunt wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:57 pm
And no, Watchmen is still, regardless of it's nature, still a superhero comic book story. It is still in that genre and cannot be taken out of it because it aims to do something other than tell colorful stories about heroism.
When it's only relation to the genre is to comment on it and criticize, then it's something separate from the genre. You is a deconstruction of rom-coms, but it doesn't make it a rom-com.
And the problem here is that you can't seem to separate a franchise's initial work's story from the franchise itself. They aren't mutually tied to one another and unable to change.
What does that have to do with what I wrote regarding story and character?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Endings

Post by Grimlock » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:12 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:41 pm
I was specifically referring to the anime and manga, which do exist to promote the arcade game.
Ah, then pardon me. Thought you included the arcade too.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:41 pm
I was talking in terms of quality, not financial success.I was saying that just because Heroes isn’t good, it doesn’t mean that Dragon Ball proper shouldn’t even bother doing something outside of its comfort zone.
Quality is subjective no matter what. What is bad to you is good to someone else. So I don't see your point when you mention its quality.

Also, you then said that Dragon Ball Heroes isn't an indication of Dragon Ball would fare, so still in the quality subject, don't you think this also comes into play when I mentioned its probability of failure? If Dragon Ball Heroes was in fact bad, wouldn't it have been canceled/shut down by now? I mean, if it was bad, then probably there wouldn't be as many players as there are right now, which consequently would affect popularity/sales. If anything, I do believe that what Dragon Ball Heroes is doing now is attracting more people than ever. I've seen Youtubers recording just the dialogues (in the arcade, which is how the story is told) for quite some time now, which may be an evidence that they aren't invested in Heroes just for its mechanics/to play it anymore.
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Re: Endings

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:21 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:12 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:41 pm
I was specifically referring to the anime and manga, which do exist to promote the arcade game.
Ah, then pardon me. Thought you included the arcade too.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:41 pm
I was talking in terms of quality, not financial success.I was saying that just because Heroes isn’t good, it doesn’t mean that Dragon Ball proper shouldn’t even bother doing something outside of its comfort zone.
Quality is subjective no matter what. What is bad to you is good to someone else. So I don't see your point when you mention its quality.

Also, you then said that Dragon Ball Heroes isn't an indication of Dragon Ball would fare, so still in the quality subject, don't you think this also comes into play when I mentioned its probability of failure? If Dragon Ball Heroes was in fact bad, wouldn't it have been canceled/shut down by now? I mean, if it was bad, then probably there wouldn't be as many players as there are right now, which consequently would affect popularity/sales. If anything, I do believe that what Dragon Ball Heroes is doing now is attracting more people than ever. I've seen Youtubers recording just the dialogues (in the arcade, which is how the story is told) for quite some time now, which may be an evidence that they aren't invested in Heroes just for its mechanics/to play it anymore.
I actually have virtually no opinion on Heroes. I’ve watched a few episodes of the anime, and I’m familiar with the various new characters and transformations in the arcade game, and while I consider it to just be silly fanservice, I can’t muster up any strong feelings of dislike towards it. It’s a pretty harmless thing that has no bearing on the story of the main part of the franchise. The reason I was referring to quality is because I was responding to a comment that said Heroes is bad.

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Re: Endings

Post by MCDaveG » Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:24 pm

GT had ending hat was sad and kind of turned the series again back to it's eastern legend roots...
Made me sad as a kid, but it doesn't sell for me nowadays, because it is basically the rehash of Z ending, but with Goku ascending to heavens and the story lives trough his descedant in the future.
It made more questions than answers...

In Z, I like how Goku flies with Uub with promises of next adventures and the shot of Dragon Balls in manga, as long as there are dragon balls, there is the advenure...

In GT, Goku probably died in fight with Li Shenron, but (a little headcannon) somebody he became Shenron's champion against the Evil Dragons? So his spirit lived, or he was still alive, but instead of going to the realm of SSJ God and challenging gods, he became mythical himself somehow. Dragon took him, everyone was sad, haven't spoke to each other for decades, Goku was finally aknowledged as hero next to Satan and here we are in future, with offsprings of Goku and Vegeta - probably fighting weak humanoid parrots and animal demons.

Well, for me Z's ending was better and even tough I can enjoy GT for designs, it's new atmosphere and the elements that I like about Dragon Ball, I hate how Pan is two things for the whole show without development - 1. annoying asshole, 2. damsel in distress.
We have waited almost two decades, for some whatever Saiyans from Uninverse 6 to finally see female Super Saiyan!
There we have Pan and her biggest trait is being mastering kamehameha like everyone at this point (even Trunks) and being annoying (Man, I like Yuko Minaguchi's Videl, but this is bad).

I also hate how the journey for the six balls was completely redundant and it made Piccolo kill himself, Goku staying as a kid, Super 17 saga killed Android 17 that was actually sympathetic guy and didn't make sense and only arc that actually had good premise (oh, sorry, Baby wasn't bad, just the idea that he made Dr. Myu, that made Baby, that made the machine mutants and there was this Guy with a whip, but in reality, the Whip is a guy and real mastermind! But there is one guy who is pervert and collects dolls, that is the mastermind BUTT! General Rildo is the mastermind above him, but actually all of this is Myu's doing, that was made by Baby BUT, Baby made him first and then Baby killed Myu while inside his... WTF!), so Evil Dragons was actually good arc with great idea, just populated with Goku and useless Pan, for the other guys to joing later and being cannon fodder for the Li Shenron, that had great design, which was actually a Dragon Quest knockoff
and Uub being weak and useless even tough being Kid Buu incarnate and merging with Majin Buu...

And this was the reason, why we haven't got the Z ending.
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