Endings

[ABED]

I'e been thinking a lot about endings lately. My views have changed A LOT over the years. Even in my 20s, I would've been super excited for DB to continue indefinitely. The same applies to other franchises. However, as I get older, the more I value closure. Trying something new, even something as trivial as a new story, can be daunting. I get it, when you love something and it gives you the chills and then it comes to an end, there is a feeling that you won't find that feeling again. But it almost always does in some new form. Applying this solely to film and TV, a new story that excites us, thrills us, makes us laugh when we're down, cry happy tears when the main characters achieves their goal or tears of sadness when something bad happens to them, always comes along. Perpetual franchises don't excite me anymore. There was a time when I would've said Batman and Superman and James Bond and now even the MCU should NEVER end. I'm not so certain now. That said, I want them to end on a high note, so I don't want my last live action Batman and Superman to be in Justice League. DB on the other hand, if the last impression is Super, or even Broly, I'm fine with that. If a story ends on a high note, no matter how brief the run, if the ending sticks the landing, I'm very happy. Keeping a series going feels like eating the same food over and over and over again. Inevitably, you get tired of it and it's time for a change.

How about you all? How do you feel about endings? How have your opinions changed over the years, if at all?

[Mad Swami]

Endings are important. I like EoZ and Gt's ending is the best ending I have seen and I don't even think it's perfect. There is always going to be the question of what's next, and while you can have fun pondering that, good things need to end. I personally want the series to end after Omega Shenron. He is the best villain conceptually and would perfectly wrap of the story of Goku. I think Dragon Ball needs to end with Uub taking the mantel, but you don't need a new show about him. It doesn't matter how strong he gets, all that matters is that Earth is in his hands. Dragon Ball while continuing is fun, I want a nice ending to make me miss it, but as of now Super is ok, not as funny as DB and not as good at the action/emotion of Z(I know DB has that too but you get my point). Goku needs to reach his peak and move on to let Uub advanced.

To conclude I love a good ending and desperately wish Dragon ball would end so I can love it as my favorite completed work

[MasenkoHA]

I’ve never seen the appeal of a never ending series like The Simpsons or Pokemon. As I’ve said before I think most shows have about a good 3-5 years in them before a decline.

As far as the anime goes Dragon Ball (excluding the wedding filler), Z(and by extension the original manga) and GT all have sufficient and satisfying endings.

[Matches Malone]

When I was a kid, It always bugged me that DB ended, as I believed everything should just go on forever. As I got older, I understood more about storytelling, thus appreciated DB's length. Not only was it a long story, every part of it (the exception being the first half of the RRA arc) added something to the overall narrative, world, and characters. With that said though, I still wasn't satisfied with the ending, not because it was bad per say, but because of how abrupt it was. There was no build up to it, no hints about it, nothing, it just jumped 10 years and ended. I never expected a full series to be made, but I hoped Toriyama would come back for one last story to make his original ending feel more natural. BOG gave me everything I wanted, and I wish things stopped there. They didn't, and DB started to do everything it wasn't, it stopped moving forward, and even regressed in some cases.

Although I agree that fans don't like to let go of what they're familiar with, I think another thing worth mentioning is the desire to have their favorite series to be just as long as everything else. Some fans believe long = good. Before DB was brought back, I'd see a lot of comments from fans wondering why DB couldn't be as long as One Piece, going on for decades and decades. I think what some fans don't understand, is that not every story is structured around 1000+ chapters, as we're seeing now with DB. I personally feel that DB was in a perfect place when it was just the original story, Z's 2 TV specials, & the BOG movie.

As much as I love DB, it's not the only anime out there. There are a lot of other shows that aren't only similar to DB, but do some things better. I think it's a big mistake to just limit your anime exposure to one series, especially in this day and age when you've got great mangaka giving us these amazing stories. If you like to see characters be as well utilized as the main hero, Naruto is a great show to get into. If you like world building, One Piece is second to none. Bleach's final arc is getting animated next year, so why not get into that ? My Hero Academia is less than 100 episodes and is concluding its 4th season, a good time to jump on. There are countless other examples as well, so why limit yourself to 1 or 2 shows ?

[Planetnamek]

I'e been thinking a lot about endings lately. My views have changed A LOT over the years. Even in my 20s, I would've been super excited for DB to continue indefinitely. The same applies to other franchises. However, as I get older, the more I value closure. Trying something new, even something as trivial as a new story, can be daunting. I get it, when you love something and it gives you the chills and then it comes to an end, there is a feeling that you won't find that feeling again. But it almost always does in some new form. Applying this solely to film and TV, a new story that excites us, thrills us, makes us laugh when we're down, cry happy tears when the main characters achieves their goal or tears of sadness when something bad happens to them, always comes along. Perpetual franchises don't excite me anymore. There was a time when I would've said Batman and Superman and James Bond and now even the MCU should NEVER end. I'm not so certain now. That said, I want them to end on a high note, so I don't want my last live action Batman and Superman to be in Justice League. DB on the other hand, if the last impression is Super, or even Broly, I'm fine with that. If a story ends on a high note, no matter how brief the run, if the ending sticks the landing, I'm very happy. Keeping a series going feels like eating the same food over and over and over again. Inevitably, you get tired of it and it's time for a change.

How about you all? How do you feel about endings? How have your opinions changed over the years, if at all?

Pretty much the same as I always did, as a kid i'd never seen the "end" of a franchise before so I didn't believe they should go on forever. I'm fine with a franchise ending(god knows I wish Harry Potter had ended with Deathly Hallows and we'd never gotten those godawful prequels, seriously those things are way goddamn worse then the Star Wars prequels) but if one does get continued even after I was happy with the ending i'm OK with that as long as the continuation does something interesting(I.E. Star Wars, Star Trek, Roseanne, Mad About You and Murphy Brown revivals)

I enjoyed Justice League for what it was but I am bummed that it's going to be the last we see of Cavill and Affleck as Superman and Batman(not that i'm not interested in what Robert Pattinson is going to do with the role, it'll be nice to see him do a role that will finally make people forget his character in those terrible Twilight movies).

For DB itself, i'm OK with their being more and I feel like there's more places to go after the ending of GT, but I can see why some people are opposed to DB continuing.

I’ve never seen the appeal of a never ending series like The Simpsons or Pokemon. As I’ve said before I think most shows have about a good 3-5 years in them before a decline.

As far as the anime goes Dragon Ball (excluding the wedding filler), Z(and by extension the original manga) and GT all have sufficient and satisfying endings.

I definitely get the appeal, Simpsons will have to end sometime especially as the original VAs get older. But Pokemon? Fuck knows how long that show could go on for.

If there's one anime that i'm shocked that's lasted for as long as it has, it would be Detective Conan.

[coola]

When you have story to tell, you can continue as long as you want, but..if its case like Fairly Oddparents or Family Guy, when creators clearly wants to move on, but are forced to continue, then it usually shows.

For me, Dragon Ball should ended with GT, except for Beerus, Broly and Whis, mayority of Super is just rehash of ideas fans came up with years ago. And then we have flanderization of characters, with make it very hard for me to enjoy Super.

[MasenkoHA]

. But Pokemon?

It can go on for as long as there are video games to advertise. Doesn’t mean it should. The show hasn’t been relevant since 2001/2002 and I’m at a loss at why its still going on clearly the games and trading cards sell fine without it

Same with One Piece. I’m glad it’s allegedly ending at 1000 episodes but that’s at least 800 episodes too many.

[JulieYBM]

The infinite cour series, like Sazae-san or even Pokemon has it's place but it's something that needs to be well-oiled on all levels of production to work out. I think Dragon Ball can certainly work as a Sazae-san or Pokemon-esque series but it needs to be well-oiled. Episodes need to have finished key animation six months ahead of schedule, there needs to be a few ace animators that regularly appear, BANK animation needs to be plenty, the music bank needs to be deep and the stories need to be from different types of writers in a rotation mixed in with the occasional story arc written by one writer. The episode directors need to be creative and the series director needs to provide a strong but flexible creative vision that allows for individuals' styles to come through. Few series are able to pull this off, the best examples being Pokemon: Sun & Moon for its animation and storylines and Naruto Shippuuden for it's inspiring of individual creativity. Unlike a story like Naruto, which had a creative mentality of actually having a grand conclusion, Dragon Ball differs by having a "Eh, whatever" attitude as expected coming from Toriyama Akira.

[MCDaveG]

As a kid, I have found it thrilling to stumble upon series that isn't villain of the week formula and recycled model over and over, but actually ends on cliffhanger and you are anticipating how it continues next week...
Dragon Ball with the art style, visuals and atmosphere blew me away as a kid. I was hooked and Buu arc for me with Goten, Trunks, Gotenks, then Goku came back to fight with Majin Vegeta, then Gohan, Vegetto and Buu's forms, that was something I will never forget and high peek for me. I was shocked when the opening changed and the series turned to GT, but happy that it goes on and the GT ending was heartbreaking... and with that epilogue, I wanted to see what happens in Dragon Ball future, for years...
With Battle of Gods and later Super, I have got what I was longing for as kid, more fighting adventure.
But as I am older, I like closures and complete series... that is why I left One Piece at over 500 episodes and never went back.

What I am actually missing, is the ending from manga. For me, it is even better than GT ending as it ends the series on high note and says that the adventure never ends and that is something I can get behind more than the GT's mystically heroic ending.
Z for me ends like Goku passes the torch to Uub and yeah, in my head he has more adventures like in Super, but surely someday gets old and legends are told about him... GT ruined this for me in anime and I hope, someday, we will get this ending as well and Kai was wasted opportuinity to introduce it.

[Robo4900]

Endings are quite important, and I think forcing something to continue on past its natural ending is a poor idea.

Having said that, you don't have to entirely say goodbye to something when it ends; Star Trek showed us that we can have new Star Trek on a fairly regular basis for over 50 years, but each individual iteration has to definitively conclude and make way for the next one. And one of the reasons Star Trek Picard is a good show is because it's something new; it's not just "Let's do ten more episodes of Next Gen", it's its own story, expanding on, building on, and moving on from the original. The original is left to stand as is, this isn't some kind of extension of that, it's a proper new take/followup.
(Though I haven't seen the Picard finalé yet, so maybe they bollocks'd it up in the last episode, I dunno )

This is one of the reasons I'm so hard on Super but not on GT.
GT takes Dragon Ball in its own direction, actually takes things forward in new ways, and ultimately brings everything to a definitive close. It's an attempt -- not a flawless attempt, not even a great attempt -- to continue the Dragon Ball story, and conclude it. Even though I can't truthfully say it's anywhere near as good as Dragon Ball at its best, I can't fault it for not being daring enough; it's a logical next step with its own distinct style that's not particularly trying to emulate the past. (Though admittedly a large chunk of the first 14 episodes are a failure in this regard. Though we all ignore the missteps in the first season of Star Trek TNG, Buffy The Vampire Slayer, and Parks & Rec, so I forgive GT episodes 2-3, 6-8, and 11-12)
Super, above all, tries to resurrect the past, and spin it on for a while longer. It inherently resists moving forward, because the entire setup, premise, and philosophy behind doing Super is entirely based on returning to a prior, concluded setup of Dragon Ball, and force it to last a few extra years in the middle without changing anything, and arguably without even being totally true to the period it is allegedly riffing on; characters are regressed to somewhat-flanderised versions of themselves that more closely resemble much earlier, more marketable versions of themselves before the character development that'd undergone at the end of the original manga. (Most notably Vegeta)

To put it another way... GT is an attempt at an extension, and then an ending, it's Dragon Ball: The Final Chapters. Super is an attempt to keep the wheels spinning forever.

To be honest, both are somewhat foolish ways to go about attempting to keep the wheels of this franchise spinning for any amount of time. A more daring version of GT would have killed off Goku in episode 1, and replaced him with Oob for the titular Grand Tour of the cosmos. Though I don't think that would have fixed any of GT's fundamental flaws, and ultimately the Japanese public were tired of Dragon Ball by that point anyway, so it wouldn't have saved it.

A more daring version of Super would take its lumps, set itself after GT, and be concerned with a new cast, new stories, a new, evolving status quo (rather than its static status quo), and being its own distinct series with its own identity.

So yes... Endings are important. But you can still come back to an old franchise while still letting the original ending hang, and without undercutting it, you just have to do it a bit differently from how Toei and Toriyama have been handling it. Ultimately, both Toei and Toriyama are far too attached to the idea of Dragon Ball just being able to spin on indefinitely, and always have been. In both cases where they've followed up on Dragon Ball, they'd have been better off trying to do something new, and both times they have refused to do this, and the product has suffered for it.

Personally, I think the correct thing to do with Dragon Ball would've been to, instead of doing Super, do something more akin to Heroes: Victory Mission or the GT special; very different style, feel, and setup to anything that's come before. This lets it sever itself from any idea of it just being "hey y'know how that thing ended? yeah what if it didn't. what if it just lasted forever"

[MasenkoHA]

^I’ll go as far as saying GT is just as unnecessary as Super. And it was definitely Toei continuing the series past its natural conclusion. In GT’s defense it’s mercifully short at 64 episodes and its ending is significantly better than Super and while I prefer Z’s ending I do think GT offers a great conclusion for the many many fans who were let down by Z’s ending.

GT was Toei not ready to let their cash cow go just yet, Super was Toei bringing it back from the dead and squeezing whatever milk it can get from it.

[Robo4900]

^I’ll go as far as saying GT is just as unnecessary as Super. And it was definitely Toei continuing the series past its natural conclusion. In GT’s defense it’s mercifully short at 64 episodes and its ending is significantly better than Super and while I prefer Z’s ending I do think GT offers a great conclusion for the many many fans who were let down by Z’s ending.

GT was Toei not ready to let their cash cow go just yet, Super was Toei bringing it back from the dead and squeezing whatever milk it can get from it.

In terms of why GT got greenlit, and why it exists?
Abso-fucking-lutely. Zero doubt. Toei didn't want their big franchise to go while they still saw life in it.

... But that doesn't mean the show itself wasn't a unique, different take on Dragon Ball that had all the ambition it needed to be a distinct, worthwhile follow-up. It never stuck the landing quite right, but if you're looking for a version of how to do a follow-up to Dragon Ball that doesn't force the show into an unnatural status quo,* then GT is it.

*or, more precisely, that doesn't force the show into ANY kind of status quo, because Dragon Ball has never had any status quo that lasted longer than half a story arc... Until Super came along.

As you note, GT is Toei not ready to let it go just yet. And in fairness, GT does feel like the "Just five more minutes" version of more Dragon Ball. It's in its twilight years, but it's still fresh enough to produce interesting ideas, and once it's done with this brief distraction, and realises it must end, it has the decency to give us the most perfect ending we could hope for. Whereas Super is the old, shambling zombie trying to return home long after it should have died, and basically all it ends up accomplishing is making everyone very uncomfortable in its persistent refusal to leave the party, even though it's making a mess of everything.

The way forward with Dragon Ball is the way forward from when Dragon Ball was still running -- try new things, be daring, switch stuff up, don't be afraid to try anything.
A GOOD new instalment in the Dragon Ball franchise would be actually different. So far, Toei has brazenly refused to even entertain this concept since GT.
The 2008 OVA was a nostalgic, insubstantial half-hour that inserts itself into the same spot Super has consistently tried to occupy; the 2010 & 2011 OVAs were a remake of an old thing with shiny, new animation, and the stupid Bardock thing; Kai was literally just the middle portion of the original manga recycled; BOG and ResF are basically attempts at doing a feature-length version of what the 2008 OVA was, and Super is an attempt to turn that into a series.

[Matches Malone]

Ultimately, both Toei and Toriyama are far too attached to the idea of Dragon Ball just being able to spin on indefinitely, and always have been. In both cases where they've followed up on Dragon Ball, they'd have been better off trying to do something new, and both times they have refused to do this, and the product has suffered for it.

I understand making a drastic change from a creative perspective, but when you look at how successful DB's been with all its nostalgia focus, I understand why they haven't moved on from it. Super's Broly was nothing more than a remake of Z movie 8, yet it's by far the highest grossing movie in the franchise. How do you justify dropping that from a financial perspective ?

Creatively speaking, I would've had BOG be the main cast's final adventure and then started Super 200 or so years after that with a completely new cast.

[Majin Buu]

A more daring version of GT would have killed off Goku in episode 1, and replaced him with Oob for the titular Grand Tour of the cosmos. Though I don't think that would have fixed any of GT's fundamental flaws, and ultimately the Japanese public were tired of Dragon Ball by that point anyway, so it wouldn't have saved it.

I think killing off Goku right at the start would have been too daring a move (and too similar to how Z started), but I agree wholeheartedly that Oob should have been part of the Grand Tour. Not including him in it was a huge missed opportunity, especially since GT was, as you said, trying to move things forward. Even if the whole "Goku's successor" thing didn't pan out, it would have still been an opportunity to flesh out his character.

[MyVisionity]

It bothers me when series end unexpectedly or when they don't really have to, or when external factors get in the way. Like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which could have continued twice as long as it did. Ditto Angel. Or Sailor Moon, which had more to go. On the other hand you have series like Yuu Yuu Hakusho, Naruto, and Hokuto No Ken, all of which I think ended more or less when they should have. DB/DBZ also ended when it should have.

I don't mind never-ending franchises, but it's the series themselves that most often should end. Like Batman and Superman can go on forever, but the Nolan series needed to end. The Donner series needed to end. I guess if the Dragon Ball franchise wants to continue, it can. But the important thing is that the original series came to an end in the 90s. Don't confuse Super with that series, which was its own thing that ended.

[Robo4900]

I understand making a drastic change from a creative perspective, but when you look at how successful DB's been with all its nostalgia focus, I understand why they haven't moved on from it. Super's Broly was nothing more than a remake of Z movie 8, yet it's by far the highest grossing movie in the franchise. How do you justify dropping that from a financial perspective ?

Yep.

Sadly, even when it's utter shit, people love the familiar once it's had time to become nostalgic, particularly if it's unwaveringly faithful to what the original thing was (say what you will, Super seems to have a pathological obsession with being like the original run, to the point of several arcs just being rehashes of older arcs, with more fanservice inserted).
So, financially, Toei have every incentive to continue putting out recycled, lazy, lame shit. Even once Toriyama finally decides this isn't worth his time, and stops putting his name on it, people will continue to insist that it's good, because it tickles their nostalgia.

I've said this since the beginning, though -- in 10-20 years' time, people will look back on Super like they look back on Sword Art Online now; everyone will facepalm, shake their heads, and roll their eyes at how anyone thought this shit was even remotely good when it is entirely artistically bankrupt outside of some flashy-looking fight scenes.

I swear to god, if GT had come out today, with the only change being that the fights are as flashy as Super, and it's marketed like Super, the entire fandom would be losing its collective shit over how great it is...
It's not about how good the show is, because GT is ultimately just okay, and Super is ultimately just pretty shallow and dull. It's all about timing. GT came right off the heels of the franchise at its peak, so Japanese fans were tired of it, and American fans found it a huge step-down (not helped by Funi's presentation of it in the west). Super, meanwhile, has come right at the peak of nostalgia for this thing, so everyone unabashedly loves it.

Creatively speaking, I would've had BOG be the main cast's final adventure and then started Super 200 or so years after that with a completely new cast.

Agreed.

Though maybe not 200 years... Maybe to keep it tied into the original ending, set it at a time when Oob is an adult, and Goku and Vegeta have died. You could still flash back to Oob training with Goku, which allows it to still have enough Dragon Ball-yness to people who refuse to accept that it's still Dragon Ball without Goku, at least at first.

---

Also, I feel I should say this:
To be clear, if you enjoy Super, I'm not criticising you. Like what you like. Don't let any criticism of the show ruin your joy of it. But at the same time, "Well, I enjoy it" doesn't invalidate any criticisms with it. I enjoy Revenge Of The Sith very much, but it's easy to argue that it's a shittily-made movie in a lot of ways. There's a healthy middle-ground here between a critical appraisal and a nostalgic love of something. You can enjoy something and criticise it at the same time. Just felt I should say that.

[Zeon_Grunt]

A good ending is always appreciated, but it isn't necessary for an ongoing franchise to have a definitive end.

I think the main issue is that some fans want a show to just be a good story about the main cast and don't want it to go any further than that. That works just fine when you're trying to produce a single, conclusive story, but when you're trying to create a franchise that can remain a revenue generator forever, a definitive ending is the exact opposite of what you'd want.

(not that i'm not interested in what Robert Pattinson is going to do with the role, it'll be nice to see him do a role that will finally make people forget his character in those terrible Twilight movies).

That's not likely to happen until the Twilight movies fade from our collective memories altogether. There'a always going to be a large group of viewers, especially the Twilight fans, who will always see him as "Edward from Twilight," in the same vein that everyone who grew up with the MCU is always going to see Tony Stark when RDJ walks into a scene. Actors, more often than not, cannot escape the image of whatever their breakout role was.

[WittyUsername]

I like when stories receive closure. I think endings that neatly wrap everything up are incredibly satisfying. The ending of the Dragon Ball manga did an acceptable enough job of closing out the story, even if it was a bit random. I prefer the ending of GT, but I’m not going to lose sleep over how that ending isn’t “canon.”

Ironically enough, if Dragon Ball has to go on indefinitely, I would prefer that they stop with the midquel nonsense and just show us what happens after the epilogue of the manga. If you’re going to force the story to keep going on and on, at least let things actually progress properly, instead of stubbornly clinging to the status quo. Besides, the more stories they cram into that 10 year time gap, the less meaningful that epilogue becomes.

[Matches Malone]

I think the main issue is that some fans want a show to just be a good story about the main cast and don't want it to go any further than that. That works just fine when you're trying to produce a single, conclusive story, but when you're trying to create a franchise that can remain a revenue generator forever, a definitive ending is the exact opposite of what you'd want.

DB was never meant to be a forever on-going cash machine. Toriyama wrote the original manga as a story with a beginning, middle, and ending. DB isn't structured to go on forever, at least not with the main cast. We've been seeing the negative impact of this forced storytelling for years now, since RF, with no improvements in sight.

I believe that forcing something to go beyond its intended end can also result in the people involved missing out on new opportunities that could potentially be just as successful if not more so. Imagine if GT went on for an additional 10 years, and Toei passed on animating One Piece, what a loss that would've been for them.

If GT had come out today, with the only change being that the fights are as flashy as Super, and it's marketed like Super, the entire fandom would be losing its collective shit over how great it is...
It's all about timing. GT came right off the heels of the franchise at its peak, so Japanese fans were tired of it, and American fans found it a huge step-down.

Another important thing GT had going against it was Toriyama's name missing from it. Had GT released even 5 years after the original run in the early 2000s with Toriyama's name on it, it would've been a lot more popular, even if it ended up being exactly what we have now. Despite GTs many flaws, it at least tried to be original, I just wish the writers had more time to realize their ideas.

In 10-20 years' time, people will look back on Super like they look back on Sword Art Online now; everyone will facepalm, shake their heads, and roll their eyes at how anyone thought this shit was even remotely good when it is entirely artistically bankrupt outside of some flashy-looking fight scenes.

Modern DB apart from BOG is like fast food, it's good at the moment, but not something you'll remember once you're done eating it, nor something you'd pick over a real meal.

I guess if the Dragon Ball franchise wants to continue, it can. But the important thing is that the original series came to an end in the 90s. Don't confuse Super with that series, which was its own thing that ended.

The problem is that the creators won't let that 90s part of the franchise die, as everything in modern DB is a nostalgic call back to it. DB doesn't have to die and be forgotten, it just needs to change. One way they could've kept the franchise alive while also keeping it new was to skip a 100 or so years into the future with a new cast.

[Robo4900]

Another important thing GT had going against it was Toriyama's name missing from it. Had GT released even 5 years after the original run in the early 2000s with Toriyama's name on it, it would've been a lot more popular, even if it ended up being exactly what we have now. Despite GTs many flaws, it at least tried to be original, I just wish the writers had more time to realize their ideas.

I don't think Toriyama's name made much of a difference at the time.
It's certainly something the modern western fandom has clung to, though.

Modern DB apart from BOG is like fast food, it's good at the moment, but not something you'll remember once you're done eating it, nor something you'd pick over a real meal.

Agreed. Though I'd honestly throw BOG in there too.

I might exclude Broly from it, though. If only because the characterisation in that movie was really good. This is the first time since the Namek/Freeza arc that Freeza has felt worthwhile, Cheelai and that other guy whose name I forget were awesome, Broly was actually a defined, real character, Goku and Vegeta felt better than they have since GT, Bulma was fun as hell, Piccolo was good, Beers and Whis weren't overused, etc.