The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:57 am

Okay, so this is a subject that's been on my mind lately but I feel it's a very important one. I think the Uranai Baba portion of the story shouldn't be sectioned off from the rest of the Red Ribbon Army arc.

This is one of those categorizations that's always confused me. While I understand the immediate reaction to split it off because, hey, the title villains were recently defeated, the actual main thrust of the story by that point (Goku finding all the Dragon Balls to wish Bora back to life) isn't resolved. And you can easily argue that the shadow of the Red Ribbon Army remains in Bora's death, and that isn't sorted out until the conclusion of the Baba mini-arc.

I can sorta understand why you'd have Namek/Frieza and Android/Cell arcs due to sheer length, but Baba's brevity has always made this very puzzling to me. As a silo'd-off arc, it has one of the lowest Chapter counts of any arc: 15 , compared to the Saiyan Arc's 46, Namek arc's 48 (not counting Frieza) and the Cell arc's 63 (not counting the Androids). On top of this, it's pretty much the same length as the other three sub-storylines of the RRA arc: Silver/White is 13 Chapters, Blue is 16, and Tao/Red is 13. Baba is much shorter than Pilaf and 22nd TB Arcs, too.

I'm not sure where this segmentation even comes from. Is there an official source at Toei for this, or is it (heaven forbid!) something acquired from dub arc listings?

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:15 am

Honestly segregating Red Ribbon and Baba makes way more sense than trying to separate Namek and Freeza or even the Cyborgs and Cell. I’ll never understand why people or Toei or Funimation try to divide up Namek as if it all doesn’t revolve around Namek with Freeza as the big bad.

But treating Red Ribbon/Baba as a single arc makes sense too. The Search for the 4-star ball arc?

Also no idea if Toei actually considers Red Ribbon and Baba as separate arcs. I know Funimation does but the fact that they identify both the Baba arc and Goku’s solo training episodes as “The Fortune Teller Baba saga” and the fact they needlessly divide the Red Ribbon Army arc into 3 sagas...their stance on the matter is rather irrelevant.

TheSeductiveTomato · Post by **TheSeductiveTomato** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:05 am

I agree. I've always considered the Baba Saga as part of the Red Ribbon Arc for the exact reason you stated. They're still tying up threads that were unraveled within the RR Arc. It's the final conclusion before moving onto the next storyline.

The idea of breaking the story down into as many sagas as possible made sense when releasing VHS singles. Obviously a box set with 20 tapes in it would be impractical and would be rather awkward to carry around. I can still see the appeal of breaking each arc into individual chapters/sagas though. So to me...

Red Ribbon Army, General Blue, Commander Red, and Fortuneteller Baba are all separate sagas but they still make up the Red Ribbon Arc.

Saiyan, Namek, and Frieza = Frieza Arc.

Androids, Cell (because screw splitting that into Imperfect and Perfect halves), and Cell Games = Cell Arc.

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am

Since when has the Baba arc ever been sectioned off from the Red Ribbon Saga? I would think that most understand it to be the final part of that storyline.

I think it's fine to divide the Red Ribbon Saga into smaller sections when appropriate. The Uranai Baba arc is just one of them.

MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:15 am I know Funimation does but the fact that they identify both the Baba arc and Goku’s solo training episodes as “The Fortune Teller Baba saga” and the fact they needlessly divide the Red Ribbon Army arc into 3 sagas...their stance on the matter is rather irrelevant.

I laugh when I think about all of the different "sagas" that Funimation created for its releases and how jumbled together the episodes often were.

WittyUsername · Post by **WittyUsername** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:14 am

I thought that was the general consensus from fans anyway?

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:21 am

Pretty sure with Funimation its something like

Pilaf Saga
Tournament Saga
Red Ribbon Saga
General Blue Saga
Commander Red Saga
Fortune Teller Baba saga
Tien Saga
King Piccolo Saga
Piccolo Jr saga
Vegeta Saga
Namek Saga
Captain Ginyu saga
Freeza saga
Garlic Jr saga
Future Trunks saga
Android Saga
Imperfect Cell Saga
Perfect Cell Saga
Cell Games Saga
Otherworld tournament saga
Great Saiyaman saga
World Tournament Saga
Babidi Saga
Buu saga
Fusion Saga
Kid Buu saga
Peaceful World saga

When really it should be
Shen Long arc
Kame Sennin arc
4-star ball arc
22nd Tenkaichi arc
Piccolo Daimao arc
23rd Tenkaichi arc
Wedding Dress arc (filler arc)
Saiyan arc
Namek arc
Garlic Jr arc (filler arc)
Jinzo Ningen arc
Otherworld Budokai arc (filler arc)
Boo arc

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:33 am

If I recall there was a "Tien Shinhan" saga in there. Also I think the Other World Tournament was rolled into the Great Saiyaman saga somehow.

Dbzfan94 · Post by **Dbzfan94** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:37 am

I’ve always grouped Baba with the RRA. The big conflict with the RRA was gathering the DBs and later reviving Bora. That doesn’t conclude until Baba stuff is done and Bora is revived and that leads into the 22nd WT.

MasenkoHA · Post by **MasenkoHA** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:41 am

MyVisionity wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:33 am If I recall there was a "Tien Shinhan" saga in there. Also I think the Other World Tournament was rolled into the Great Saiyaman saga somehow.

My bad I forgot to list Tien saga oops

I was going off the wikia which lives and dies by the dub but then I looked at a listing of home video releases and they (Funimation)did indeed roll the Other World arc into the Great Saiyaman.

Why Funimation split the Cell portion alone into 3 sagas but treat the Wedding Dress arc and Other World tournament arc as part of the Piccolo Jr saga and Grear Saiyaman saga is anyone’s guess.

MyVisionity · Post by **MyVisionity** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:10 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:41 am Why Funimation split the Cell portion alone into 3 sagas but treat the Wedding Dress arc and Other World tournament arc as part of the Piccolo Jr saga and Grear Saiyaman saga is anyone’s guess.

I think I remember that they were originally going to use "Kai Tournament" or something like that but there were some legal issues with using that name, so they just went with Saiyaman.

Also I think by the time Funi got to the Piccolo sagas they had stopped doing the single releases of DB and just wanted to get the episodes out there as quickly as possible in sets. Otherwise I bet there would have been a Tambourine Saga, Kami Saga etc etc.

SuperSaiyaManZ94 · Post by **SuperSaiyaManZ94** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:14 pm

MyVisionity wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:10 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:41 am Why Funimation split the Cell portion alone into 3 sagas but treat the Wedding Dress arc and Other World tournament arc as part of the Piccolo Jr saga and Grear Saiyaman saga is anyone’s guess.
I think I remember that they were originally going to use "Kai Tournament" or something like that but there were some legal issues with using that name, so they just went with Saiyaman.

Also I think by the time Funi got to the Piccolo sagas they had stopped doing the single releases of DB and just wanted to get the episodes out there as quickly as possible in sets. Otherwise I bet there would have been a Tambourine Saga, Kami Saga etc etc.

All this breaking up of larger arcs by FUNi into chunks for the home releases seems overall pretty arbitrary and haphazard, especially seeing as some like the Baba arc are obviously supposed to go with the tail end of the Red Ribbon Army material as an epilogue.

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:15 pm

I agree, and have always viewed them as one arc. Splitting it up is like their odd splits of other arcs, such as Namek being divided into 2-3 parts.

WittyUsername · Post by **WittyUsername** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:15 pm

Gaffer Tape/MistareFusion’s method of splitting the manga into a total of 10 arcs should be the standard.

SuperSaiyaManZ94 · Post by **SuperSaiyaManZ94** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:19 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:15 pm I agree, and have always viewed them as one arc. Splitting it up is like their odd splits of other arcs, such as Namek being divided into 2-3 parts.

I know right, same as with arbitrarily splitting up Z into nine seasons for most of their releases when that's not at all how it aired on Toonami as there was only six broadcast including the two edited seasons from the syndicated run.

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:28 pm

WittyUsername wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:15 pmGaffer Tape/MistareFusion’s method of splitting the manga into a total of 10 arcs should be the standard.

I don't know why that isn't the normal, default split as anything else is just splitting an arc into parts.

SuperSaiyaManZ94 · Post by **SuperSaiyaManZ94** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:32 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:28 pm
WittyUsername wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:15 pmGaffer Tape/MistareFusion’s method of splitting the manga into a total of 10 arcs should be the standard.
I don't know why that isn't the normal, default split as anything else is just splitting an arc into parts.

That would be much more sensible than the approach FUNi has taken with needlessly splitting up chunks of a larger arc that are supposed to go together as one whole like Namek or Cell.

Robo4900 · Post by **Robo4900** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:12 pm

I agree with KBABZ.

For the record, Kanzenshuu's arc listing goes like this for the manga:

Spoiler:

And like this for the anime:

Spoiler:

Personally, I've always categorised it in my head like this:

Spoiler:

Though if one wanted to split stuff like Baba, Freeza, and Cell out, I'd actually split some arcs up way more; Red Ribbon, I'd split into the Silver/White, West City/Blue, Tao/HQ, and Baba sub-arcs, I'd break the Namek arc up roughly where Kanzenshuu makes the break (the sort of "everybody struggling for the balls" story turns into "the gang vs Freeza" at that point, so it makes some sense), similarly I'd also break up the Cyborgs and Cell arcs, though I'd further break the Cell arc into Cell's Perfection, and The Cell Games/Perfect Cell. I would also break the Boo arc up into the Babidi/Majin Boo arc, the Super Boo arc, the Fusion/Kid Boo arc, and the Epilogue.

Ultimately, if you're going to categorise everything into overarcing stories, I think it makes more sense to stick to that, and only really break things up based on the major storyline shifts (in fact, probably it would make sense to group Afterlife Tournament with Cell, and Great Saiyaman with Boo, as well as Black-Star Balls with Baby, for something like this), but if you want to break it down further into whenever the storyline changes its focus, as is the case when the Baba mini-arc begins, it makes more sense to break all the longer arcs down further into smaller periods. (And one can even cite recent examples of inconsistency in this in Kanzenshuu's listing; the Potaufeu/Jelly Vegeta filler arc isn't listed as its own storyline on Kanzenshuu's Super arc listing, even though full-on filler arcs in the past always got their own listing)
I think the former is better, with fewer, longer individual arcs, but either way, I think it's best to stick to one of these, rather than having some kind of confusing half-measure.

To my understanding, Kanzenshuu's listing is essentially fan-devised, so in theory, this is a criticism with the decision by the Kanzenshuu staff to break up the arcs like this.
Though, I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Kanzenshuu staff based this off a listing from one of the Daizenshuus.

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:30 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:32 pmThat would be much more sensible than the approach FUNi has taken with needlessly splitting up chunks of a larger arc that are supposed to go together as one whole like Namek or Cell.

You've got things like the "Raditz" saga or the "Captain Ginyu" saga , each being 4-5 episodes each. It's over complicated for the sake of it. I guess maybe it was done because fans in North America weren't used to 50+ episode long stories, but still, just leave them as is.

SuperSaiyaManZ94 · Post by **SuperSaiyaManZ94** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:36 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:30 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:32 pmThat would be much more sensible than the approach FUNi has taken with needlessly splitting up chunks of a larger arc that are supposed to go together as one whole like Namek or Cell.
You've got things like the "Raditz" saga or the "Captain Ginyu" saga , each being 4-5 episodes each. It's over complicated for the sake of it. I guess maybe it was done because fans in North America weren't used to 50+ episode long stories, but still, just leave them as is.

I know right, and even if that was indeed FUNi's reasoning for doing so back in the day for the home releases it's still needlessly arbitratry and convoluted because those designations are split from the larger arc the episodes are contained in. Especially in the ones you mention there with only a few episodes apiece this doesn't really make much sense in terms of division for the story arcs as a whole.

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:47 pm

MyVisionity wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:11 am Since when has the Baba arc ever been sectioned off from the Red Ribbon Saga?

Since as long as I can remember. Even Kanzenshuu does it, which honestly is what the thread title is referring to: I think this should be changed on the main site itself.

@Robo: I personally break up my arcs by storyline. Thus Red Ribbon has Baba, Namek has Frieza, Cell has Androids, Buu has Great Saiyaman, and most significantly, Baby has the Black Star Balls. The Baby arc is an example of the storyline changing mid-way in the arc, much like how the villain of the Android/Cell arc changes mid-way through (and then changes again into a faux Tournament). Within those you'd have the major sagas that make up those arcs (Training + Tournament, Blue + Red + Baba, etc), which for me is what Funimation was trying to do when divvying up their VHS tapes for what the immediate story is about.

Kanzenshuu

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