The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
90sDBZ
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:34 am
Location: UK

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:47 pm

I sometimes forget Funimation renamed the Saiyan saga "The Vegeta saga" from 2005 when they re dubbed it. It's one of those things that never really caught on with fans, who pretty much universally still call it the Saiyan saga, even those who never saw the Saban dub. I'm pretty sure all the videogames still use "Saiyan saga" too.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:05 pm

Arcs can have overlaps and still be distinct. Baba's tournament has a beginning, middle, climax, and resolution. There's a link to the RRA arc, but the RRA's arc concludes when Goku defeats Black.

The one that really bugs me is the insistence that the Saiyan arc is a part of the Freeza arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 4480
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:05 pm
Arcs can have overlaps and still be distinct. Baba's tournament has a beginning, middle, climax, and resolution. There's a link to the RRA arc, but the RRA's arc concludes when Goku defeats Black.
Normally I'd agree, but the RRA arc has several more of those: Korin's Tower/Tao/Red, the Pirate Cave, and Muscle Tower, but those aren't considered distinct arcs, probably because they aren't at the end like Baba is.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:45 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:29 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:05 pm
Arcs can have overlaps and still be distinct. Baba's tournament has a beginning, middle, climax, and resolution. There's a link to the RRA arc, but the RRA's arc concludes when Goku defeats Black.
Normally I'd agree, but the RRA arc has several more of those: Korin's Tower/Tao/Red, the Pirate Cave, and Muscle Tower, but those aren't considered distinct arcs, probably because they aren't at the end like Baba is.
There's no rule saying how many you can have. You could consider mini arcs within a bigger arc.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:05 pm
Arcs can have overlaps and still be distinct. Baba's tournament has a beginning, middle, climax, and resolution. There's a link to the RRA arc, but the RRA's arc concludes when Goku defeats Black.
If we consider the main thrust of the story arc being Goku is in conflict with the Red Ribbon Army then yes the story begins when the Red Ribbon army makes themselves known and ends when Goku defeats Staff Officer Black. Which is sufficient enough reason to separate Red Ribbon from Baba. But if we consider the thrust of the story being Goku is going to find his grandpa's dragon ball then the Baba arc is intertwined with the Red Ribbon conflict as one larger arc.


The one that really bugs me is the insistence that the Saiyan arc is a part of the Freeza arc.
I feel like it would make as much sense as suggesting the Tenshinhan/22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc is part of the Piccolo Daimao arc simply because it directly leads into it. (Which of course it doesn't)

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:40 pm

Understood but there are stories within stories.

I think with the Vegeta/Freeza debate, it's whether Vegeta counts as Freeza's underling. He doesn't.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 2464
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 pm

Even though I have seen people who have argued that the Saiyan arc is part of the Freeza arc, I personally don’t see it very often. The stuff with the Saiyans definitely qualifies as its own arc. There’s a clear goal for the protagonists at that point that differs from their goal when they go to Namek, and even though the Saiyans do technically work for Freeza, Vegeta has his own ambitions that have nothing to with his boss.

With that said, I don’t think there’s much of a reason to count the Baba stuff as being its own arc. If Goku’s primary goal during the RRA part of the story was defeating them, then sure, the RRA arc would’ve ended with him killing Black, but that isn’t the case. The thing that kickstarts the story is Goku going out to find his grandfather’s keepsake. The RRA are simply an obstacle he encounters.

User avatar
90sDBZ
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:34 am
Location: UK

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:50 pm

I think it's actually valid to consider the Saiyan and Frieza arcs one big one, mainly because of how things don't get truly resolved until after Frieza's defeat. Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, Piccolo, and Kami all die during the battle with the Saiyans, which is the whole reason for going to Namek, and most of them don't get revived until it's all over. Piccolo watching Gohan in his house from afar before walking off feels like a good conclusion to that whole portion of the story.

User avatar
TheSeductiveTomato
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:02 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by TheSeductiveTomato » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:52 pm
The one that really bugs me is the insistence that the Saiyan arc is a part of the Freeza arc.
I feel like it would make as much sense as suggesting the Tenshinhan/22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc is part of the Piccolo Daimao arc simply because it directly leads into it. (Which of course it doesn't)
Guilty of both of these. I get that the Tien arc being part of the Piccolo arc is a bit of a stretch but I will argue that the Saiyan arc being part of the Frieza arc makes sense. There are many themes that carry over from the Saiyan arc into Namek and Frieza. Vegeta's development, Goku coming in touch with his Saiyan heritage (finding out who he is from Raditz, unlocking the ancient Super Saiyan transformation, avenging the death of his race... even if he never cared about that), learning about the planet trade from Raditz and getting to see who's really behind the organization. The whole reason anyone even went to Namek to begin with was to fix issues that remained unresolved at the end of the Saiyan saga. We never get any true resolution until Frieza is defeated and the Namekians are teleported to New Namek. By all rights, the Saiyan saga feels like it was meant to be the 1st chapter of a three-part arc.

User avatar
KBABZ
I Live Here
Posts: 4480
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:52 pm
If we consider the main thrust of the story arc being Goku is in conflict with the Red Ribbon Army then yes the story begins when the Red Ribbon army makes themselves known and ends when Goku defeats Staff Officer Black. Which is sufficient enough reason to separate Red Ribbon from Baba. But if we consider the thrust of the story being Goku is going to find his grandpa's dragon ball then the Baba arc is intertwined with the Red Ribbon conflict as one larger arc.
While the main thrust of the story is Goku finding the Four Star Ball specifically, I don't think anyone was fooled into thinking the story would stop at that moment: Goku was going to find all the Dragon Balls and Shenlong was gonna be summoned from the moment he parted ways with Krillin and co. at the end of the previous arc. For me the RRA arc is an expanded take on the opening Pilaf idea where Goku is going solo this time, hence why I feel so strongly that putting Baba aside is bizarre.
ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:40 pm
The one that really bugs me is the insistence that the Saiyan arc is a part of the Freeza arc.
I agree with this one too. By the time this arc came to be, we had already established the new formula of each arc being about a primary villain whom the heroes will eventually fight as the arc's climax. Vegeta is very much presented as such, and the inevitable fight is placed much more on Vegeta than with his as-yes-unintroduced boss Frieza, whose position in the galactic company the Saiyans are a part of wouldn't be introduced until AFTER Vegeta flees. There's also a major setting change and there's a big to-do about Gohan, Krillin and Bulma even getting there in the first place.
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:49 pm
I don’t think there’s much of a reason to count the Baba stuff as being its own arc. If Goku’s primary goal during the RRA part of the story was defeating them, then sure, the RRA arc would’ve ended with him killing Black, but that isn’t the case. The thing that kickstarts the story is Goku going out to find his grandfather’s keepsake. The RRA are simply an obstacle he encounters.
I agree; the fact that Goku defeats the RRA and still has one Dragon Ball left to go is very notable; Goku's journey here isn't over. Plus as mentioned before, Goku's motivations change at the end: he puts aside the quest for the Four Star Ball (which he DOES find) in order to help Upa out, and that problem isn't solved until the Baba section is over. And I consider it different from the Namek Arc (which is basically the same, resurrecting the fallen) because it's a MUCH bigger to-do for them to do that and it takes such an extremely long time to do it compared to Tao+Red+Baba.
TheSeductiveTomato wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:54 pm
There are many themes that carry over from the Saiyan arc into Namek and Frieza.
As much as that's true, there are also many important themes that aren't introduced until Namek that utterly define that part of the story. Frieza and how his company works are not introduced until then; we completely take Vegeta at his word that he's the strongest in the universe until Frieza and his underlings show up. The Super Saiyan transformation and "zenkai" are also not at all a thing until Namek either, unimportant to the Saiyan arc but VERY important in Namek. In fact the idea of Goku needing to enact vengeance on Frieza isn't even slightly alluded to until the backstory is revised by way of Dodoria to make it more personal to him and Vegeta. Vegeta's own growth is similar to Piccolo's; it doesn't start happening until the arc AFTER he's introduced.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:25 pm

KBABZ wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 4:05 pm
I agree with this one too. By the time this arc came to be, we had already established the new formula of each arc being about a primary villain whom the heroes will eventually fight as the arc's climax. Vegeta is very much presented as such, and the inevitable fight is placed much more on Vegeta than with his as-yes-unintroduced boss Frieza, whose position in the galactic company the Saiyans are a part of wouldn't be introduced until AFTER Vegeta flees. There's also a major setting change and there's a big to-do about Gohan, Krillin and Bulma even getting there in the first place.
Even if we keep the justifications in universe, Vegeta going to Earth to gain immortality is his rebellion. He's no longer working for Freeza at that point.
There are many themes that carry over from the Saiyan arc into Namek and Frieza. Vegeta's development
Whether all threads are tied up isn't the criterion of what constitutes a story arc. Themes and even loose threads can carry through multiple story arcs.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

MyVisionity
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:14 pm

I think it's worth noting that not everyone will necessarily be using the same definition of the word "arc". Some might approach things more literally or more conventionally, while others use broader definitions or go their own way. Then you have additional terms including "saga" which can change things up as well.

In my view the Red Ribbon story undoubtedly includes Uranai Baba, but Baba is still it's own story at the same time. It's not all one way or the other.

Saiyajin/Freeza are very much two distinct sagas. But not to the extent that they can't be viewed as being one whole. Whether or not Vegeta is working for Freeza or not is largely irrelevant as he and the other Saiya are still closely enough affiliated with the organization in the plot. And because the Freeza arc directly expands upon plot/character points introduced in Saiyan arc while also concluding those plot points, it's clear enough how anyone could tie them both into one whole saga.

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by Valerius Dover » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:40 pm

The way I would split them is like this.

I always considered Baba's tournament to be the last part of Red Ribbon, seeing as how the real plot (namely the search for the Dragon Balls) hadn't reached any sort of conclusion. For what it's worth, Dragon Ball Origins 2 was named after the arc in Japan, but also has the tournament and an extended showdown with Pilaf at the end. The Saiyan / Frieza thing is up for debate, as I used to see them as one long arc. Attack of the Saiyans and its specific ending point contributed to me changing my mind. The Uub epilogue I probably would've considered part of the Buu arc were it not for Super. Also, apparently it's an unpopular opinion to consider the first 40 GT episodes one arc, but I don't see why it wouldn't be. Sure, Baby isn't around early on, but neither were Cell or Buu in their arcs. And in-between fillers that don't have any plot relevant content I ended up grouping separately, but it's perfectly fine to toss them into other arcs if that's more convenient.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:50 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:14 pm
In my view the Red Ribbon story undoubtedly includes Uranai Baba, but Baba is still it's own story at the same time. It's not all one way or the other.
I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't consider her tournament a part of their story. Their story ended. Baba's tournament is the conclusion of Goku's journey to find the DB's. The RRA were simply an opposing force. To say it's a part of the RRA arc is to frame it as some sort of extended denouement, which it most certainly is not.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

MyVisionity
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:06 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:50 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:14 pm
In my view the Red Ribbon story undoubtedly includes Uranai Baba, but Baba is still it's own story at the same time. It's not all one way or the other.
I agree with most of this, but I wouldn't consider her tournament a part of their story. Their story ended. Baba's tournament is the conclusion of Goku's journey to find the DB's. The RRA were simply an opposing force. To say it's a part of the RRA arc is to frame it as some sort of extended denouement, which it most certainly is not.
If you're referring to "Red Ribbon" as the characters themselves, then yes their arc ends with their defeat. When I say the "Red Ribbon arc", I'm referring to the portion of the series identified with the Red Ribbon Army. Not specifically the "arc" of the organization itself.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:09 pm

I got that and I get why some would combine the two but it doesn't really make sense to call it all the RRA arc when their story arc concludes 15 or so episodes prior.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1924
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by Valerius Dover » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:12 pm

Red Ribbon Army arc rolls off the tongue better than 2nd Hunt for the Dragon Balls, which I'd say would be the more accurate name describing the arc.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2275
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:16 pm

Valerius Dover wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:12 pm
Red Ribbon Army arc rolls off the tongue better than 2nd Hunt for the Dragon Balls, which I'd say would be the more accurate name describing the arc.
4-Star Ball arc (since it’s about Goku looking for his. grandpa’s 4-star ball and the resolution is even when he has to summon Shen Long to bring Bora back he snatches the 4 star ball before it flies off again)

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17397
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:17 pm

This is less about the nomenclature and more about giving an idea of what the center of that story arc is. Maybe not the heart of the story, but something defining about it. It's usually the antagonist simply because that's usually what the main point of the story is.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

MyVisionity
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm

Uranai Baba is only ten episodes and takes place during the same day, immediately after the RRA's defeat. Including Upa and the Dragon Ball search reinforces the saga's conclusion, after which it immediately shifts into the next story.

"Red Ribbon" doesn't just refer to the characters or their specific arc, it also represents the entire section of the series in which they are a dominant and central presence. That's why the title can extend to a story that occurs after their specific arc or storyline ends.

Post Reply