The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

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ABED
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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Uranai Baba is only ten episodes and takes place during the same day, immediately after the RRA's defeat. Including Upa and the Dragon Ball search reinforces the saga's conclusion, after which it immediately shifts into the next story.

"Red Ribbon" doesn't just refer to the characters or their specific arc, it also represents the entire section of the series in which they are a dominant and central presence. That's why the title can extend to a story that occurs after their specific arc or storyline ends.
10 episodes is now the length of a season of some shows. There's no rule about how long a story must be to be considered an arc. The Super 17 arc is 7 episodes, the After World Tournament is 5. What's the minimum length to be considered an arc?

Even using your definition the RRA are no longer a dominant and central presence. There's also no rule about the timeframe of a story arc.
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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:13 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Uranai Baba is only ten episodes and takes place during the same day, i
The Garlic Jr arc is only 10 episodes

The Wedding Dress and Otherworld Budokai arcs are both only 5 episodes

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:43 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:13 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Uranai Baba is only ten episodes and takes place during the same day, i
The Garlic Jr arc is only 10 episodes
The Wedding Dress and Otherworld Budokai arcs are both only 5 episodes
Those are merely filler arcs.
ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 pm
10 episodes is now the length of a season of some shows. There's no rule about how long a story must be to be considered an arc. The Super 17 arc is 7 episodes, the After World Tournament is 5. What's the minimum length to be considered an arc?

Even using your definition the RRA are no longer a dominant and central presence. There's also no rule about the timeframe of a story arc.
Baba is still an oddly short main storyline, with its entire setup and inciting incidents happening in the Red Ribbon arc, and 100% of its actual resolution and ending is tying up one of the main threads from the last third of the preceeding Red Ribbon arc.

Current TV doesn't factor in, when we're talking about a show from 30 years ago.
And in this show from 30 years ago, I'm pretty sure there's only one other "Arc" that was quite this short -- the very first arc, at 13 episodes. Which told a complete story with a beginning, middle, and end, setting everything up and paying it off within those 13 episodes... Whereas, as I say, Baba is entirely a payoff to stuff set up in the prior Red Ribbon storylines.
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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:53 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:43 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:13 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:29 pm
Uranai Baba is only ten episodes and takes place during the same day, i
The Garlic Jr arc is only 10 episodes
The Wedding Dress and Otherworld Budokai arcs are both only 5 episodes
Those are merely filler arcs.
I’m at a loss at why that would matter. They’re still part of the tv series. Being created exclusively for the anime doesn’t exempt them from some mystical rule on how long a story arc needs to be to qualify as an arc.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:59 pm

My definition is that an Arc is an overall storyline, while a Saga is a portion within it. So for, me the Red Ribbon Arc is made up of the Silver/White, Blue, Tao/Red and Baba Sagas. Namek would be split off similarly, with an initial "Arrival" saga, Ginyu Force Saga, and of course the Frieza Saga. And so on.

I can understand why the Android/Cell, Saiyaman/Buu, and Black Star/Baby Arcs are split in two considering outside forces resulted in the direction of the story changing, but for me personally I wouldn't split those up either because it's the storyline that changes in the middle without a resolution happening. Which kinda gets to one of my points about Baba actually: Goku's goal and the direction of the story changes before the story is over. If you say "Well it ends when he gets the Four Star Ball", I'm sorry but there's NO WAY he would have just walked away from Upa's predicament. For him the story wasn't over until he set out into the wilderness on foot at the very end.
MasenkoHA wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:53 pm
I’m at a loss at why that would matter. They’re still part of the tv series. Being created exclusively for the anime doesn’t exempt them from some mystical rule on how long a story arc needs to be to qualify as an arc.
I think what Robo is getting at is that they're Filler arcs designed to stall for time rather than tell an engaging, progressive story (progressive as in it advances the character, not that Kami is revealed to be a woman). This gives them a bit of a special exemption, especially when comparing and contrasting with the manga. You HAVE to silo them off because they are additions to the existing Arc structure set by the manga.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:07 pm

^
But if we’re talking about episode length, which isn’t applicable to the manga, then Garlic Jr and the other two arcs short length are just as valid.

But the main point is an arc doesn’t need to be super long. An arc can be like 3 episodes. It’s not some exclusive concept to Dragon Ball.

I understand not viewing the Baba episodes as its own arc but “it’s only 10 episodes” is a poor argument.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:21 pm

I never said that Uranai Baba wasn't its own arc, just that its episode count doesn't disqualify it from being a part of a larger arc.

ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 pm
Even using your definition the RRA are no longer a dominant and central presence. There's also no rule about the timeframe of a story arc.
They were a dominant presence immediately preceding the Baba arc. "Dominance" doesn't just disappear instantly, it has lasting influence. Certainly over an arc that starts immediately following it, and one that involves leftover plot points.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:46 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:21 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:00 pm
Even using your definition the RRA are no longer a dominant and central presence. There's also no rule about the timeframe of a story arc.
They were a dominant presence immediately preceding the Baba arc. "Dominance" doesn't just disappear instantly, it has lasting influence. Certainly over an arc that starts immediately following it, and one that involves leftover plot points.
This is my argument too: the Red Ribbon Army's shadow looms in Upa's predicament and it's the entire reason why the Baba arc is happening in the first place; had Tao not killed Bora, the Baba Arc wouldn't have happened. The Namek Arc is technically this as well in triplicate, but there's a much longer, grander story involved there which explores many new story elements such that I'm fine with it being its own thing. Baba feels like another step in the road of the larger RRA Arc for me.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:33 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:21 pm
Certainly over an arc that starts immediately following it, and one that involves leftover plot points.
Understood but my counter is loose plot threads don't inherently mean it's part of the same story arc. The Freeza arc begins with the decision to go to Namek after their friends are killed by the Saiyans, yet it is its own arc. The 23rd TB or Piccolo Jr or whatever the hell you want to call it arc is connected to the previous arc, but they aren't the same story arc.

Regardless, I think the big takeaway isn't whether we agree what to call each arc or where they begin or end, but really what constitutes an arc.
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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:48 am

Personally I'd love to hear the reasonings from Kanzenshuu staff, too! It didn't really come across in my original post but I was kinda-sorta hoping to pitch a change to the manga/anime arc structure regarding this arc.

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am

Pretty sure the Kanzenshuu labels are just based on the Dragon Box booklets.
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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:59 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am
Pretty sure the Kanzenshuu labels are just based on the Dragon Box booklets.
Huh, YOU'RE RIGHT! I just checked the Dragon Book from my OG DBox and it's right there, Pages 40 and 41!

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Re: The Baba Arc should be rolled into the RRA Arc

Post by Adamant » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:56 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:29 am
Pretty sure the Kanzenshuu labels are just based on the Dragon Box booklets.
Not entirely. The Dragon Book has episode 14-18 as the "Kame Sennin Training Arc", a separation I don't think I've ever seen anywhere else. Toei is not super consistent on how they divide the series into arcs.
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