Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:43 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:38 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:33 am
OP or mods, I humbly request that you fix the title. My OCD is getting triggered badly.
What do you mean? It's a statement. We've all been debating like idiots, when the OP was intending to say something very specific -- everyone's favourite baseball player, Who, is a Mary Sue character in Dragon Ball. It's certainly a controversial view. :lol:

(But yes, the title does bug me slightly too)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQzCptidLmw

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:20 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:00 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:57 pm
I don't think there's a Mary Sue in Dragon Ball. However, IMO there's at least two Gary Stus: Trunks and the old Bardock.
Why do you consider the old Bardock to be one?
He's the father of the protagonist, have somehow his own armor and a PL of 10000. Also, he can see the future and can even transform in Super Saiyan. Too much for a supposedly average saiyan.
- Being related to the protagonist doesn't make one a Mary-Sue.

- The PL of 10,000 was the result of a Zenkai he got from the Alien. Its wasnt something he always had from the start.

- The see into the future powers were something he got from the same alien as a punishment to torrment him. Its not something he always had for no reason.

- He was never depicted as being particularly overpowered in the 90's tv special. He still gets killed by Freeza like nothing.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:24 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:00 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:26 pm
Bardock’s ability to see into the future isn’t a gift.
I know, but he still has it. It's something who makes him "special".
By that same logic, having any sort of super powers or unique features makes you a "Mary-Sue". Its a dumb argument.
Last edited by Sadala Elite on Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:33 am

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You all fell for it! The title says Drago Ball! All this talk has been pointless!!!

lol.

Please dont close this thread. I'm just kidding. I really do want to see who is a mary sue on DragoN Ball.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:08 pm
I agree with Future Trunks, especially when we take Super into account.

- He gets a new form out of nowhere that lets him compete with God tier characters
- He learns the Mafuba in minutes, when it took Goku a whole day (and Goku is already the guy who can master a technique that took 50 years to develop in seconds)
- He invents a better version of one of Goku's strongest attacks from out of nowhere, and defeats a villain that Goku, Vegeta, and even Vegeto couldn't defeat.
Calling Future Trunks a Mary Sue makes no sense even with Super, because:

- The story never bends over just to service him (like it sometimes does with Goku).

- Saiyans (and some others) unlocking new levels of power through intense rage or other emotions is nothing new or unique to Trunks. Nearly ever major Saiyan character has done at least once.

- If you pay attention to the Spirit Sword scene you notice that he wasn't the one who consciously created it.

- The Mafuba was never intended to a super difficult techique for everyone. The fact that Tien in the Piccolo saga was able to master it in less than a day (despite taking Roshi & his master decades to learn it and dying when using it) is proof of that. Also, Goku learning in one day as a kid means that a Post-Z Trunks learning it that fast and easily is to be expected.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:58 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:10 pm
Now that I think about it, Vegeta’s response to Trunks’ death is the first true indication that he’s actually capable of caring about people other than himself. Considering that Vegeta is the same person who gleefully killed his longtime ally who happened to be one of the last surviving members of the Saiyan race, in addition to being indifferent to the death of his father, that is pretty noteworthy. The idea that Trunks is the one who brought out Vegeta’s humanity could potentially be seen as a Gary Stuish quality.
For me it's how suddenly it happens that tips the encounter into Sue territory. Vegeta goes from holding Trunks in complete contempt to being willing to go an a doomed charge to avenge him. That's too reminiscent of fanfiction (and actual published stories tbh) where the main character dies and suddenly their estranged parent has an epiphany.
That's a real life psychological reaction with many parents, even sociopathic ones, so there's nothing Mary-Sueish about it. Plus, Vegeta is known to be a Tsundere.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am

The story never bends over just to service him (like it sometimes does with Goku).

Saiyans unlocking new levels of power through intense rage or other emotions is nothing new or unique to Trunks.

If you pay attention to the Spirit Sword scene you notice that he wasn't the one who consciously created it.
It does, multiple times. When it serves Goku, it at least makes sense.

Not this kind of power. No build up, No explanation, nothing. He can now randomly fight on par with Goku and Vegeta, who are supposed to be on a level unattainable by normal means, with a form we or even the writers know nothing about.

Then who did ? Why not just add in a line saying he trained with King Kai and learned it form him ?

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am

The story never bends over just to service him (like it sometimes does with Goku).

Saiyans unlocking new levels of power through intense rage or other emotions is nothing new or unique to Trunks.

If you pay attention to the Spirit Sword scene you notice that he wasn't the one who consciously created it.
It does, multiple times. When it serves Goku, it at least makes sense.

Not this kind of power. No build up, No explanation, nothing. He can now randomly fight on par with Goku and Vegeta, who are supposed to be on a level unattainable by normal means, with a form we or even the writers know nothing about.

Then who did ? Why not just add in a line saying he trained with King Kai and learned it form him ?
- Name one example of the series bending over just for Trunks to succeed.

- Massive rage boost are nothing new, or are they unique to Trunks or even the Saiyans (an established ability for their race). You failed to prove that it isn't. Hell, we even see what triggers the SSJ Rage transform before it even happens.

- Trunks was just a confused about the Spirit Sword as the audience when it was forming. It was likely unconsciously created by the hope of all of the people of Earth & Trunks (at least that was the theme they were going for).

Do you wanna know a real example of a Mary Sue moment? Ultra Instinct Goku in general

Goku, who's only in his 40s and had at most 2 years of training with Whis, masters a technique/transformation that none of the Hakaishin could do despite training with angels for millions of years. Nothing can explain or justify that.

Ultra Instinct Goku is the single most Gary-Stuish thing to ever happen in Canon Dragonball.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:21 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 am

- Name one example of the series bending over just for Trunks to succeed.

- Massive rage boost are nothing new, or are they unique to Trunks or even the Saiyans.

- Trunks was just a confused about the Spirit Sword as the audience when it was forming.

It was likely unconsciously created by the hope of all of the people of Earth & Trunks.

Ultra Instinct Goku is the single most Gary-Stuish thing to ever happen in Canon Dragon ball.
Giving him Blue tier power up out of nowhere, and allowing him to take down someone who was on Blue Vegetto's level.

This isn't a rage boost, it's a transformation he can access at will, one that's on the level of what requires a special ritual or training by an angle. Why not just give him SsjG instead ? Have him do the ritual, it fails for some reason, then in a desperate moment he manages to transform into SsjG. It would've made more sense than this.

It would've helped if the writers took the time to add a line or 2 that explained it.

All the people ? there was less than 100 there. It took Goku billions of people to help power up a spirit bomb strong enough to kill Buu, but with the help of a fraction within a fraction of that, Trunks is able to take down someone who puts Buu to shame ?

Never mind the fact UI has massive drawbacks, both of which almost cost U7 the tournament.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:30 am

Oh another person who liked the ending of the Future Trunks arc, this brings me so much joy. I also liked that ending, if anything because they did something interesting with Zamasu's immortality,
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:21 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:52 am

- Name one example of the series bending over just for Trunks to succeed.

- Massive rage boost are nothing new, or are they unique to Trunks or even the Saiyans.

- Trunks was just a confused about the Spirit Sword as the audience when it was forming.

It was likely unconsciously created by the hope of all of the people of Earth & Trunks.

Ultra Instinct Goku is the single most Gary-Stuish thing to ever happen in Canon Dragon ball.
Giving him Blue tier power up out of nowhere, and allowing him to take down someone who was on Blue Vegetto's level.

This isn't a rage boost, it's a transformation he can access at will, one that's on the level of what requires a special ritual or training by an angle. Why not just give him SsjG instead ? Have him do the ritual, it fails for some reason, then in a desperate moment he manages to transform into SsjG. It would've made more sense than this.

It would've helped if the writers took the time to add a line or 2 that explained it.

All the people ? there was less than 100 there. It took Goku billions of people to help power up a spirit bomb strong enough to kill Buu, but with the help of a fraction within a fraction of that, Trunks is able to take down someone who puts Buu to shame ?

Never mind the fact UI has massive drawbacks, both of which almost cost U7 the tournament.
- Claiming it was "out of nowhere" makes no sense as the scene showed exactly what pushed Trunks into the form.

- SSJ Rage WAS as rage boost. Its literally in the name lmao. Characters unlocking new transformations through rage is exactly how most of the Saiyans got SSJ1 and how Jiren got his Awakened form in ep.130.

- You're forgoting that the Spirit Sword didn't actually kill Merged Zamasu and that he was weakened from his fight with SSB Vegito.

- Based on the show's own lore (and the reasons I've previously stated), Goku shouldn't have gotten UI at all. Having drawbacks to the form doesn't make Goku getting it at all any less Gary-Stuish based on all that.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:42 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:32 am

- Claiming it was "out of nowhere" makes no sense as the scene showed exactly what pushed Trunks into the form.

- You're forgoting that the Spirit Sword didn't actually kill Merged Zamasu and that he was weakened from his fight with SSB Vegito.
What makes no sense is him unlocking a form that powerful because of someone saying shit to him, yet unlocking nothing when that same someone killed his mother in front of him.

It doesn't matter what state he was in, he shouldn't have been anywhere near him, much less being able to do what he did.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:56 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:42 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:32 am

- Claiming it was "out of nowhere" makes no sense as the scene showed exactly what pushed Trunks into the form.

- You're forgoting that the Spirit Sword didn't actually kill Merged Zamasu and that he was weakened from his fight with SSB Vegito.
What makes no sense is him unlocking a form that powerful because of someone saying shit to him, yet unlocking nothing when that same someone killed his mother in front of him.

It doesn't matter what state he was in, he shouldn't have been anywhere near him, much less being able to do what he did.
How is that any difference from any of the other times a character unlocks a transformation that conveniently makes that relevant against the current threat?

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:00 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:42 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:32 am

- Claiming it was "out of nowhere" makes no sense as the scene showed exactly what pushed Trunks into the form.

- You're forgoting that the Spirit Sword didn't actually kill Merged Zamasu and that he was weakened from his fight with SSB Vegito.
What makes no sense is him unlocking a form that powerful because of someone saying shit to him, yet unlocking nothing when that same someone killed his mother in front of him.

It doesn't matter what state he was in, he shouldn't have been anywhere near him, much less being able to do what he did.
His mother's dying wish was to get out of the timeline and look for help in the past, ofc he wouldn't try to stand his ground and pull out a new transformation. That was different the second time when Zamasu and Black blamed him for his sins, because that time it was a last stand, he already got help and he was either going to win or lose, there was no going back.

I can buy Trunks finishing off an already weakened and mentally unstable Fused Zamasu, the only thing in that scene that doesn't make much sense is Trunks being able to parry Zamasu's attacks with his sword.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:42 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am
- The Mafuba was never intended to a super difficult techique for everyone. The fact that Tien in the Piccolo saga was able to master it in less than a day (despite taking Roshi & his master decades to learn it and dying when using it) is proof of that. Also, Goku learning in one day as a kid means that a Post-Z Trunks learning it that fast and easily is to be expected.
Goku took a day to learn it as an adult. In the very same arc, just a few episodes before Trunks learned it in minutes (from watching a video on a smartphone).
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:40 am

Yeah, this was a bad faith argument from the start where the OP had already made up his mind clearly. And you people fell for it. LMAO.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:19 am

As much as I hate to say it, there’s nothing that indicates Vegetto did any real damage to Zamasu during that fight. Vegetto charged up a Final Kamehameha and Zamasu takes it head on and emerges from the smoke squeaky clean. At least Boo looked like he was taking damage despite having near immortality level regeneration.

One of the major points in the arc that make me bang my head on the desk.

I only defend the Genki Sword because like someone else said Trunks didn’t do it on purpose the energy formed on its own and he ceased the moment, he probably had no idea that was gonna do what it did but what other choice did he have right?

Remember Genki works a little differently than regular or even God Ki, that coupled with Trunks funneling it through himself and not just throwing it helped on destroying Zamasu’s body.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:24 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am
That's a real life psychological reaction with many parents, even sociopathic ones, so there's nothing Mary-Sueish about it. Plus, Vegeta is known to be a Tsundere.
We know Vegeta to be tsundere now. Moments like that are what pushed public perception of the character towards that. But at the time Vegeta was 100% tsun tsun. The guy was ill tempered, sadistic, and an unapologetic psychopath. Vegeta as Red from That 70's Show is something that's being grafted on to the character to explain an outburst we don't actually see develop. And while I don't know nearly enough psychology to dispute how many irl human parents react to the loss of a child, Vegeta is a planet conquering space pirate. To me at least that changes the dynamic considerably. Esepcially since we've seen him coldly murder the one father figure in his life, Nappa.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Dbzk1999 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:21 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:42 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am
- The Mafuba was never intended to a super difficult techique for everyone. The fact that Tien in the Piccolo saga was able to master it in less than a day (despite taking Roshi & his master decades to learn it and dying when using it) is proof of that. Also, Goku learning in one day as a kid means that a Post-Z Trunks learning it that fast and easily is to be expected.
Goku took a day to learn it as an adult. In the very same arc, just a few episodes before Trunks learned it in minutes (from watching a video on a smartphone).
Goku didn’t take a day learning it. He took a day learning to properly direct it into the container. I feel like people forget that distinction. As soon as Goku starts, he’s already shown being able to use the actual technique, with the main struggle being (like all the others) being accurate enough with it. Trunks on the other hand had Mai to assist him
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:43 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 am
- Being related to the protagonist doesn't make one a Mary-Sue.

- The PL of 10,000 was the result of a Zenkai he got from the Alien. Its wasnt something he always had from the start.

- The see into the future powers were something he got from the same alien as a punishment to torrment him. Its not something he always had for no reason.

- He was never depicted as being particularly overpowered in the 90's tv special. He still gets killed by Freeza like nothing.
- This is only one of the reasons, also it helps a lot.

- Even then, it's something really exagerated, especially for a low-class saiyan.

- But the thing is, even if it's a curse, it's something that a saiyan don't have, an unnatural ability. And it works perfectly for a tragic Gary Stu.

- He's overpowered comparing to an average saiyan. Also, Cell killed Trunks like nothing and a lot of people still considered the guy as a Mary Sue (Gary Stu).
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:24 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:00 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:26 pm
Bardock’s ability to see into the future isn’t a gift.
I know, but he still has it. It's something who makes him "special".
By that same logic, having any sort of super powers or unique features makes you a "Mary-Sue". Its a dumb argument.
You see, I think you're right, but only when your opinion is based in this unique reason. But IMO Bardock is a Gary Stu because of several reasons, not only that one.

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