Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:18 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:43 am

You see, I think you're right, but only when your opinion is based in this unique reason. But IMO Bardock is a Gary Stu because of several reasons, not only that one.

Then can you give a good reason? Being Goku's dad doesn't make him a Gary Stu. Getting psychic visions that end up doing him no good doesn't make a Gary Stu. Even having a battle power of 10,000 really doesn't make him a Gary Stu.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:42 pm

Goku Black arc Future Trunks easily
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am
- The story never bends over just to service him (like it sometimes does with Goku).
You say that, but the whole arc contradicts your statement.
- If you pay attention to the Spirit Sword scene you notice that he wasn't the one who consciously created it.
Yeah. the story gave it to him out of nowhere so he could overpower Zamasu
It was likely unconsciously created by the hope of all of the people of Earth & Trunks
Nice head canon, the spirit bomb has never worked that way in the past but lolokay.
- Massive rage boost are nothing new, or are they unique to Trunks or even the Saiyans (an established ability for their race). You failed to prove that it isn't. Hell, we even see what triggers the SSJ Rage transform before it even happens.
Even before the asspull SSJ Rage moment Trunks went from being stomped by base Goku Black to being able to hold off SSJR Goku Black with zero explanation.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:03 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:43 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:22 am
- Being related to the protagonist doesn't make one a Mary-Sue.

- The PL of 10,000 was the result of a Zenkai he got from the Alien. Its wasnt something he always had from the start.

- The see into the future powers were something he got from the same alien as a punishment to torrment him. Its not something he always had for no reason.

- He was never depicted as being particularly overpowered in the 90's tv special. He still gets killed by Freeza like nothing.
- This is only one of the reasons, also it helps a lot.

- Even then, it's something really exagerated, especially for a low-class saiyan.

- But the thing is, even if it's a curse, it's something that a saiyan don't have, an unnatural ability. And it works perfectly for a tragic Gary Stu.

- He's overpowered comparing to an average saiyan. Also, Cell killed Trunks like nothing and a lot of people still considered the guy as a Mary Sue (Gary Stu).
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:24 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:00 pm


I know, but he still has it. It's something who makes him "special".
By that same logic, having any sort of super powers or unique features makes you a "Mary-Sue". Its a dumb argument.
You see, I think you're right, but only when your opinion is based in this unique reason. But IMO Bardock is a Gary Stu because of several reasons, not only that one.
Again, you failed to give any logical argument about why any of these traits make a character a Gary Stu. You're just repeating that "he has them, therefore Sue" fallacy.

- If being related to the main character makes on a Sue then Goku's entire family are Sues. Its a stupid argument for calling a character a Sue.

- Goku himself is also exaggeratingly strong for a low-class Saiyan (it was a plot point in the Saiyan Saga). And it was never stated anywhere that a low class Saiyan couldnt ever get that strong. And Bardock was still nothing compared to Freeza's mid tier soldiers.

And Cell killing Trunks like nothing is exactly a major reason why he isn't a Sue. Just because other people view him as one doesn't mean its a fact.

- "Tragic Gary Stu" is an oxymoron. A Mary Sue is a character that is impossibility competent in ways that make no sense. A character where all internal logic gets thrown away just for them to thrive.

If having abilities you weren't born with makes you a Sue then almost the entire cast in DB are Mary Sues. The fact that the future-seeing powers were given to Bardock (and he wasnt born with it for no reason) in a way that could be given to anybody means that it ISNT a Sue trait. Its just as stupid as for example calling Mystic Gohan a Gary Stu when literally any character could get the Elder Kai power up.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:24 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am
That's a real life psychological reaction with many parents, even sociopathic ones, so there's nothing Mary-Sueish about it. Plus, Vegeta is known to be a Tsundere.
We know Vegeta to be tsundere now. Moments like that are what pushed public perception of the character towards that. But at the time Vegeta was 100% tsun tsun. The guy was ill tempered, sadistic, and an unapologetic psychopath. Vegeta as Red from That 70's Show is something that's being grafted on to the character to explain an outburst we don't actually see develop. And while I don't know nearly enough psychology to dispute how many irl human parents react to the loss of a child, Vegeta is a planet conquering space pirate. To me at least that changes the dynamic considerably. Esepcially since we've seen him coldly murder the one father figure in his life, Nappa.
Most habitual murders aren't immune to having feelings for their children. Just look at the mafia or any violent tribal culture for example.

Nappa (or anyone other than Vegeta's literal dad) being Vegeta's father figure is pure headcanon with no in-universe support.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:13 pm

The reason he has a stronger than average power level, especially for a lower class fighter, is to reinforce the idea of Freeza's apprehension about the Saiyans. They are nowhere near as strong as he is but they are getting stronger than they should be.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:19 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:42 pm
Goku Black arc Future Trunks easily
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:39 am
- The story never bends over just to service him (like it sometimes does with Goku).
You say that, but the whole arc contradicts your statement.
- If you pay attention to the Spirit Sword scene you notice that he wasn't the one who consciously created it.
Yeah. the story gave it to him out of nowhere so he could overpower Zamasu
It was likely unconsciously created by the hope of all of the people of Earth & Trunks
Nice head canon, the spirit bomb has never worked that way in the past but lolokay.
- Massive rage boost are nothing new, or are they unique to Trunks or even the Saiyans (an established ability for their race). You failed to prove that it isn't. Hell, we even see what triggers the SSJ Rage transform before it even happens.
Even before the asspull SSJ Rage moment Trunks went from being stomped by base Goku Black to being able to hold off SSJR Goku Black with zero explanation.
- The fact that Trunks still struggles with the power-ups he gets and isnt just ever handed an easy victory means that the story doesn't service him.

- The fact that the Spirit Sword failed debunks your argument.

- The fact still remains that he didnt consciously make it, which proves my point.

- The Black arc was filled with bad powerscailing and that wasnt even unique to Trunks. Stuff like Base Black handling SSB Vegeta, the inconsistencies with Future Zamasu's power, Normal SSB Goku overpowering the Father-Son Galick Gun, SSBKK Goku doing more physical damage to Merged Zamasu than Vegito did, etc.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Peach » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:29 pm

Caulifla and Kale.

Takes them a minute of their backs feeling funny to use something that took Vegeta and Goku years to obtain. Then they get super saiyan 2 and mastered legendary super saiyan after turning into super saiyan a second time.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:26 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Most habitual murders aren't immune to having feelings for their children. Just look at the mafia or any violent tribal culture for example.

Nappa (or anyone other than Vegeta's literal dad) being Vegeta's father figure is pure headcanon with no in-universe support.
I'm not saying that Vegeta ever had feelings for Nappa or that he should have. Just pointing out that Nappa was the only adult in Vegeta's life going all the way back to his pre-adolescence. In most people that would lead to some level of filial feelings. In Vegeta they never did which makes his subsequent emotional angst over Trunks a hard sell to me. And, yeah, violent organizations do tend towards strong feelings of family bonds and strict hierarchies which is why I think his relationship with Nappa is noteworthy. In most of those violent cultures/communities turning on an elder who helped raise you is seen as evil.

No matter how I look at it, Vegeta's reaction to Trunks' death just feels out of nowhere.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:48 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:29 pm
Caulifla and Kale.

Takes them a minute of their backs feeling funny to use something that took Vegeta and Goku years to obtain. Then they get super saiyan 2 and mastered legendary super saiyan after turning into super saiyan a second time.
Learning off the back of those that come before us to produce better and faster results is pretty realistic a reflection of how things work in the real world. Further more, simply obtaining those Super Saiyan forms did not actually make those characters 'the best' or even advance them through the story beyond being able to participate in a martial arts tournament--which they lose--and develop into a stronger combination.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:49 pm

Nobody.

There are exceptionally talented people in Dragon Ball with incredible unique abilities that could potentially end the plot if they were used more pragmatically, but that was established from early chapters of the manga. And with how the story becomes more over-the-top, how the power creep has such a stranglehold on the narrative that Dragon Ball turns into a power-up race after Freeza appears, and with the how absurdly high the stakes become when Cell arrives, it would be natural for characters to outdo themselves and became more revered for their power and conjuring even more fantastical abilities or techniques as part of their skill set.

What really surprises me though is that people still use this insanely outdated buzzword. But what shocks me even more is how poorly this buzzword its used as a form narrative dissection and criticism.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by ABED » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:03 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:26 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Most habitual murders aren't immune to having feelings for their children. Just look at the mafia or any violent tribal culture for example.

Nappa (or anyone other than Vegeta's literal dad) being Vegeta's father figure is pure headcanon with no in-universe support.
I'm not saying that Vegeta ever had feelings for Nappa or that he should have. Just pointing out that Nappa was the only adult in Vegeta's life going all the way back to his pre-adolescence. In most people that would lead to some level of filial feelings. In Vegeta they never did which makes his subsequent emotional angst over Trunks a hard sell to me. And, yeah, violent organizations do tend towards strong feelings of family bonds and strict hierarchies which is why I think his relationship with Nappa is noteworthy. In most of those violent cultures/communities turning on an elder who helped raise you is seen as evil.

No matter how I look at it, Vegeta's reaction to Trunks' death just feels out of nowhere.
But contextually, he's at a completely different point in his life. The Vegeta we first met wouldn't even contemplate living on Earth. He was going through a huge change.
Learning off the back of those that come before us to produce better and faster results is pretty realistic a reflection of how things work in the real world.
Great point. Goku didn't have a teacher and didn't even know he could. It happened by luck. He didn't have anyone teaching him how to do it.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:32 pm

The entire point of the Bardock special is that Bardock is a nobody who completely fails in preventing the destruction of his race, and rather than being celebrated as a famous hero, he’s completely forgotten about. Yeah, the 10,000 PL thing is a weird thing to establish for someone who’s supposed to be a nameless low-level soldier, but it doesn’t change the fact that Freeza kills him without even a though.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:26 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:18 pm
Then can you give a good reason? Being Goku's dad doesn't make him a Gary Stu. Getting psychic visions that end up doing him no good doesn't make a Gary Stu. Even having a battle power of 10,000 really doesn't make him a Gary Stu.
No, but all these things together, with some other ones? That's make him a Gary Stu IMO.
Sadala Elite wrote:Again, you failed to give any logical argument about why any of these traits make a character a Gary Stu. You're just repeating that "he has them, therefore Sue" fallacy.
Because that's what I think, and I don't think it's a fallacy. Individually these treats are innofensive; but they together are a whole different thing.
Sadala Elite wrote:- "Tragic Gary Stu" is an oxymoron
Actually isn't (maybe the expression is, who knows). Bardock probably won't fit entirely in this category, but still...

Also, I find this phrase of TV tropes very interesting:
Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.
So your definition of Mary Sue probably is not the same as mine. In fact, is possible that everyone is this topic have his own interpretation about what a Mary Sue is.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:05 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:26 pm
MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:18 pm
Then can you give a good reason? Being Goku's dad doesn't make him a Gary Stu. Getting psychic visions that end up doing him no good doesn't make a Gary Stu. Even having a battle power of 10,000 really doesn't make him a Gary Stu.
No, but all these things together, with some other ones? That's make him a Gary Stu IMO.
Sadala Elite wrote:Again, you failed to give any logical argument about why any of these traits make a character a Gary Stu. You're just repeating that "he has them, therefore Sue" fallacy.
Because that's what I think, and I don't think it's a fallacy. Individually these treats are innofensive; but they together are a whole different thing.
Sadala Elite wrote:- "Tragic Gary Stu" is an oxymoron
Actually isn't (maybe the expression is, who knows). Bardock probably won't fit entirely in this category, but still...

Also, I find this phrase of TV tropes very interesting:
Mary Sue is a derogatory term primarily used in Fan Fic circles to describe a particular type of character. This much everyone can agree on. What that character type is, exactly, differs wildly from circle to circle, and often from person to person.
So your definition of Mary Sue probably is not the same as mine. In fact, is possible that everyone is this topic have his own interpretation about what a Mary Sue is.
- The special future seeing powers are something that anyone in-universe could get, they aren't anything meant to make Bardock special.

- No, all those traits all together dont make a character a Sue if they all make internal sense for that character to have them.

- If a claim or argument makes no logical sense then it's a fallacy, which is exactly what your arguments are.

- A Sympathetic Sue is a character that nearly every other character in the story (and the story itself) is sympathetic to for no reason. Bardock is not written that way in either an in-universe nor out-universe sense (since he was depicted as being just as evil as most other Saiyans)

- If you can't make an objective definition of a Mary Sue, then it is a meaningless, false concept.

- As ABED said, the entire point of the 90s Bardock special is that he's NOT special, that he can't do anything to change the future despite being able to predict it, and ultimately makes no impact on the events of the story and is forgotten. That's as far away from a Mary Sue as you can get.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/MarySue

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by SSJgogeto » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:32 pm

Can't really agree with that. The way I see is that Bardock is special, but even then he isn't powerful enough.

About the rest, let's see: IMO Bardock is special, and also he is the only character who have the "I can see the future" power (besides the Kanassans). I don't think these treats together make sense, and I think my argument makes sense, so I don't see it as a fallacy. Also, I told that Bardock won't fit entirely in that category and I don't think your opinion about the "false concept" is necessarily true.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Fionordequester » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:44 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:19 am
As much as I hate to say it, there’s nothing that indicates Vegetto did any real damage to Zamasu during that fight.
Actually, believe it or not, there is. It's ridiculously subtle (to the point it may've been an accident), and exists only in the Japanese version... But it's there.

Basically, Fused Zamasu loses the voice filter after being hit by the Big Bang Kamehameha. Literally his very next line ("Behold! This is a god!") has him talking in his normal, unmodified voice. He then goes the rest of the episode with his unmodified voice, except for one brief moment where both he & Trunks get it.

You can read all about that, here: viewtopic.php?t=36633
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:54 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:32 pm
Can't really agree with that. The way I see is that Bardock is special, but even then he isn't powerful enough.

About the rest, let's see: IMO Bardock is special, and also he is the only character who have the "I can see the future" power (besides the Kanassans). I don't think these treats together make sense, and I think my argument makes sense, so I don't see it as a fallacy. Also, I told that Bardock won't fit entirely in that category and I don't think your opinion about the "false concept" is necessarily true.
If anything, I’d argue that Toriyama’s Bardock is more “special” than the old Bardock. Toriyama’s Bardock was not only the only Saiyan to figure out Freeza’s plans, but he did so entirely on his own. Toei’s Bardock literally had to be told about Freeza wanting to kill the Saiyans, but Toriyama’s version was apparently the only Saiyan smart enough to figure it out on his own. Plus, he is the reason Goku gets sent to Earth, which makes him a much more important character in the story than the old Bardock. With the old Bardock, his importance to the story literally begins and ends with “he impregnated some woman to make Goku.”

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by jjgp1112 » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:37 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:32 pm
The entire point of the Bardock special is that Bardock is a nobody who completely fails in preventing the destruction of his race, and rather than being celebrated as a famous hero, he’s completely forgotten about. Yeah, the 10,000 PL thing is a weird thing to establish for someone who’s supposed to be a nameless low-level soldier, but it doesn’t change the fact that Freeza kills him without even a though.
Besides that, the reason why he reached that 10,000 PL isn't ridiculous and is actually explicitly called out: his crew managed to barely survive missions that were out of their league and got stronger after healing as a result.
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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:10 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:37 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:32 pm
The entire point of the Bardock special is that Bardock is a nobody who completely fails in preventing the destruction of his race, and rather than being celebrated as a famous hero, he’s completely forgotten about. Yeah, the 10,000 PL thing is a weird thing to establish for someone who’s supposed to be a nameless low-level soldier, but it doesn’t change the fact that Freeza kills him without even a though.
Besides that, the reason why he reached that 10,000 PL isn't ridiculous and is actually explicitly called out: his crew managed to barely survive missions that were out of their league and got stronger after healing as a result.
I think the main problem with the 10,000 thing is that making him strong enough to rival King Vegeta does somewhat undermine the narrative that he’s this insignificant soldier. Plus, it makes you wonder why Bardock is still viewed as a low-class soldier, and not an elite. That’s really my only problem with the special. Still, that’s certainly not enough to make him a Gary Stu.

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Re: Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

Post by Grimlock » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:29 pm

With a power level close to ten thousand, he probably shouldn't be a low-class warrior, but we don't know if he rivaled King Vegeta. We never knew what was his power level.

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