Who is a Mary Sue in Drago Ball.

[ABED]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

Except that isn't a thing. They will when they need to but they'd rather not. It's not a contradiction.

[jjgp1112]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

Well, yeah.

Goku was trying to rescue his son. All his usual hangups are out, then.

[Sadala Elite]

Can an entire species be labeled a Mary Sue?

Lets face facts: Freeza should not have been so damn strong or introduced when he was. Toriyama had to create zenkais because he set Freeza's power to be so astronomical to everyone else. Then to keep upping the suspense he kept adding to Freeza, so then he made Super Saiyan to keep up. Then because shonen anime is always about stronger opponents to face, Saiyans had to keep unlocking stronger and stronger transformations to keep up, and because Toriyama had already neglected everyone not Goku by that time, he kept adding on to the Saiyans so Future Trunks can be a Super Saiyan, and thus Vegeta had to be a super saiyan, and so on.

Consider that Piccolo endlessly trains, and Gohan slacked off during the seven years between Cell and Buu, and after seven years Piccolo still isn't anywhere near Perfect Cell's level, while after 7 years Gohan would give a less one sided fight, compared to back then.

And while this is more about Goku and Vegeta, when Super isn't giving them new transformations, they're getting all the training with Whis, getting all the ROSAT training now that the pesky rules have been lifted it goes on. Even for a shonen property where its common for the top main character to get more love than everyone else, Saiyans get waaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

An entire race being naturally more talented isn't a Mary Sue trait.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

Except that isn't a thing. They will when they need to but they'd rather not. It's not a contradiction.

But Super treats the idea of teaming up as this completely alien concept to Goku. He even expressed apprehension about teaming up for the Tournament of Power, even though the entire universe was on the line.

[ABED]

But Super treats the idea of teaming up as this completely alien concept to Goku. He even expressed apprehension about teaming up for the Tournament of Power, even though the entire universe was on the line.

I can't stress this enough - they aren't superheroes. And just because the stakes are huger than they've ever been, do you think that matters? Do you think there level of stakes where they'd finally get the point? If they aren't going to team up and find the most expedient way to stop the end of their own world, what about an entire universe would persuade Goku?

And Super never treated teaming up like an alien concept. The very first arc has Goku telling Beerus that he wishes he didn't have to rely on his friends' power but he'd do it because there were no other options. That's the key. When Goku has no other options, he'll take the help. If he doesn't need it, he'll go without it. It makes complete sense and is in character for a competitor like him.

[WittyUsername]

But Super treats the idea of teaming up as this completely alien concept to Goku. He even expressed apprehension about teaming up for the Tournament of Power, even though the entire universe was on the line.

I can't stress this enough - they aren't superheroes! And just because the stakes are huger than they've ever been, do you think that matters? Do you think there level of stakes where they'd finally get the point? If they aren't going to team up and find the most expedient way to stop the end of their own world, what about an entire universe would persuade Goku?

And Super never treated teaming up like an alien concept. The very first arc has Goku telling Beerus that he wishes he didn't have to rely on his friends' power but he'd do it because there were no other options. That's the key. When Goku has no other options, he'll take the help. If he doesn't need it, he'll go without it. It makes complete sense and is in character for a competitor like him.

Who said anything about them being superheroes? I think nearly everyone on this website is well aware that Dragon Ball isn’t a superhero franchise. Whether or not a character has an apprehension to teaming up to take down an enemy has nothing to do with being a superhero. It’s a question of whether or not these characters are interested in practicality.

[ABED]

Except you all keep bringing up how problematic it is that they won't team up to bring an end to the bad guys as quick as possible or don't get that the world or universe or multiverse is in danger. Their aim isn't to save the world nor is it to bring as expedient an end as possible, otherwise they are superheroes. They want the best fight possible.

[WittyUsername]

Except you all keep bringing up how problematic it is that they won't team up to bring an end to the bad guys as quick as possible or don't get that the world or universe or multiverse is in danger. Their aim isn't to save the world nor bring as expedient an end as possible, otherwise they are superheroes. They want the best fight possible.

I never suggested that it’s problematic for Goku to be against teaming up to defeat an enemy. I was simply saying that I personally find him to be inconsistent when it comes to just how much he’s against teaming up against an opponent.

Besides, characters don’t need to be heroic in order to be practical. That’s just a matter of self-preservation. Villains can be practical as well.

[FoolsGil]

Can an entire species be labeled a Mary Sue?

Lets face facts: Freeza should not have been so damn strong or introduced when he was. Toriyama had to create zenkais because he set Freeza's power to be so astronomical to everyone else. Then to keep upping the suspense he kept adding to Freeza, so then he made Super Saiyan to keep up. Then because shonen anime is always about stronger opponents to face, Saiyans had to keep unlocking stronger and stronger transformations to keep up, and because Toriyama had already neglected everyone not Goku by that time, he kept adding on to the Saiyans so Future Trunks can be a Super Saiyan, and thus Vegeta had to be a super saiyan, and so on.

Consider that Piccolo endlessly trains, and Gohan slacked off during the seven years between Cell and Buu, and after seven years Piccolo still isn't anywhere near Perfect Cell's level, while after 7 years Gohan would give a less one sided fight, compared to back then.

And while this is more about Goku and Vegeta, when Super isn't giving them new transformations, they're getting all the training with Whis, getting all the ROSAT training now that the pesky rules have been lifted it goes on. Even for a shonen property where its common for the top main character to get more love than everyone else, Saiyans get waaaaaaaaaaaay too much.

An entire race being naturally more talented isn't a Mary Sue trait.

Why not?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

Well, yeah.

Goku was trying to rescue his son. All his usual hangups are out, then.

But the hang ups aren't consistent throughout all of Dragon Ball. Before training with Kami, Goku enjoyed pitting himself against challenges but he didn't feel the need to throw off help when it was offered. When Goku rejects help against Piccolo Jr he isn't acting on Saiyan instinct. It was a perfectly normal human emotion for the setting. Goku had been trying to win the Budokai Tenkaichi since he was twelve and he wasn't about to leave empty handed. We'd seen Tenshinhan exhibit similar traits in the previous Arc. We even had shades of it in Yamcha and Bulma preparing to throw themselves at Piccolo Daimao in what was obviously a doomed charge.

The Saiyans as solitary fighters who insist on being solitary fighters doesn't actually become a thing until Vegeta starts expositing about it during the Cell Arc. It's telling, to me at least, that Tree of Might doesn't depict Tullece as a loner warrior but as a mostly sociable tyrant who likes surrounding himself with minions. Before Vegeta starts asserting that Saiyans are genetically wired to rebuke any and all aid, every Saiyan we meet is willing to work with others to achieve their goals. Hell, that's how they come to Earth in the first place. Because they need a fourth Saiyan to conquor an above average Battle Power world.

[jjgp1112]

Except you all keep bringing up how problematic it is that they won't team up to bring an end to the bad guys as quick as possible or don't get that the world or universe or multiverse is in danger. Their aim isn't to save the world nor bring as expedient an end as possible, otherwise they are superheroes. They want the best fight possible.

I never suggested that it’s problematic for Goku to be against teaming up to defeat an enemy. I was simply saying that I personally find him to be inconsistent when it comes to just how much he’s against teaming up against an opponent.

Besides, characters don’t need to be heroic in order to be practical. That’s just a matter of self-preservation.

Well let's look at the only times Goku's actually been down with teaming up:

His son being kidnapped by a guy who was insurmountably stronger than him. Urgent, desperate circumstance that he couldn't just train his way out of.

Kid Buu Fight - Completely out of Ki against a psycho who would blow up the universe at any time for the lulz. And even then, he resisted until even VEGETA had to step in.

Beerus - "I'm gonna blow this planet up unless I find a worthy opponent RIGHT NOW." Again, no training his way out of that one.

Even Vegeta points it out in the Cell saga. While Goku's not opposed to teaming up, it's an absolute LAST resort. Self-preservation and practicality aren't Goku's specialty.

[ABED]

Except you all keep bringing up how problematic it is that they won't team up to bring an end to the bad guys as quick as possible or don't get that the world or universe or multiverse is in danger. Their aim isn't to save the world nor bring as expedient an end as possible, otherwise they are superheroes. They want the best fight possible.

I never suggested that it’s problematic for Goku to be against teaming up to defeat an enemy. I was simply saying that I personally find him to be inconsistent when it comes to just how much he’s against teaming up against an opponent.

Besides, characters don’t need to be heroic in order to be practical. That’s just a matter of self-preservation. Villains can be practical as well.

He's not inconsistent. He's explicitly said he'd rather not, but will team up when he's out of options.

He's not interested in practicality as his aim isn't just survival. He wants a challenge.

Because they need a fourth Saiyan to conquor an above average Battle Power world.

Yes, they NEED him.

This isn't about Saiyan or human ethos. It has everything to do with being a martial artist and challenging themselves.

[WittyUsername]

On the subject of the whole “Saiyans don’t team up against opponents” thing, I find it weird how that’s been made into a defining character trait for Goku. Last I checked, Goku had no problem teaming up with Piccolo to take down Raditz. He even showed no qualms about grabbing Raditz by surprise so that Piccolo could kill him. Beyond that, he was the one who suggested using the Fusion technique to defeat Majin Boo.

Well, yeah.

Goku was trying to rescue his son. All his usual hangups are out, then.

But the hang ups aren't consistent throughout all of Dragon Ball. Before training with Kami, Goku enjoyed pitting himself against challenges but he didn't feel the need to throw off help when it was offered. When Goku rejects help against Piccolo Jr he isn't acting on Saiyan instinct. It was a perfectly normal human emotion for the setting. Goku had been trying to win the Budokai Tenkaichi since he was twelve and he wasn't about to leave empty handed. We'd seen Tenshinhan exhibit similar traits in the previous Arc. We even had shades of it in Yamcha and Bulma preparing to throw themselves at Piccolo Daimao in what was obviously a doomed charge.

The Saiyans as solitary fighters who insist on being solitary fighters doesn't actually become a thing until Vegeta starts expositing about it during the Cell Arc. It's telling, to me at least, that Tree of Might doesn't depict Tullece as a loner warrior but as a mostly sociable tyrant who likes surrounding himself with minions. Before Vegeta starts asserting that Saiyans are genetically wired to rebuke any and all aid, every Saiyan we meet is willing to work with others to achieve their goals. Hell, that's how they come to Earth in the first place. Because they need a fourth Saiyan to conquor an above average Battle Power world.

Don’t forget that the stated reason for why Freeza wipes out the Saiyans was because he feared that they would all team up to take him down. At least, that was the explanation back when it was first revealed that Freeza killed the Saiyans.

Honestly, I’m not even really against the idea that Goku doesn’t like having help in a fight. I just think it’s weird that his Saiyan heritage is used as the official explanation for it.

[WittyUsername]

Except you all keep bringing up how problematic it is that they won't team up to bring an end to the bad guys as quick as possible or don't get that the world or universe or multiverse is in danger. Their aim isn't to save the world nor bring as expedient an end as possible, otherwise they are superheroes. They want the best fight possible.

I never suggested that it’s problematic for Goku to be against teaming up to defeat an enemy. I was simply saying that I personally find him to be inconsistent when it comes to just how much he’s against teaming up against an opponent.

Besides, characters don’t need to be heroic in order to be practical. That’s just a matter of self-preservation.

Well let's look at the only times Goku's actually been down with teaming up:

His son being kidnapped by a guy who was insurmountably stronger than him. Urgent, desperate circumstance that he couldn't just train his way out of.

Kid Buu Fight - Completely out of Ki against a psycho who would blow up the universe at any time for the lulz. And even then, he resisted until even VEGETA had to step in.

Beerus - "I'm gonna blow this planet up unless I find a worthy opponent RIGHT NOW." Again, no training his way out of that one.

Even Vegeta points it out in the Cell saga. While Goku's not opposed to teaming up, it's an absolute LAST resort. Self-preservation and practicality aren't Goku's specialty.

Again, Goku was the one who suggested using Fusion to defeat Boo, and this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo himself.

[ABED]

Because he sensed his power, knew he couldn't win, and knew he wouldn't be around for much longer.

I just think it’s weird that his Saiyan heritage is used as the official explanation for it.

Is it? That sounds more like a fan thing where they place far too much emphasis on Goku's Saiyan side as if it doesn't fundamentally come from his nature as a martial artist to want to test himself.

[WittyUsername]

Is it? That sounds more like a fan thing where they place far too much emphasis on Goku's Saiyan side as if it doesn't fundamentally come from his nature as a martial artist to want to test himself.

That’s the explanation Vegeta gave, and he presumably knows all about what it means to be a Saiyan. Also, if I recall, before the Tournament of Power, Goku himself even said that Saiyans don’t like teaming up to take down an opponent.

[ABED]

Except that for all his bluster about Saiyans, he doesn't actually care about them.

Yes, they don't like teaming up. Where's the contradiction" They don't have to like something to do it. Notice in the case of Piccolo, he doesn't team up with anyone because he's confident in his ability to winat the 23rd TB.

[WittyUsername]

Except that for all his bluster about Saiyans, he doesn't actually care about them.

Yes, they don't like teaming up. Where's the contradiction" They don't have to like something to do it. Notice in the case of Piccolo, he doesn't team up with anyone because he's confident in his ability to winat the 23rd TB.

But again, Goku specifically used being a Saiyan as his excuse for not wanting to team up. That’s the part that’s weird. The series in general has an odd habit of suggesting that Goku’s personality is owed almost entirely to him being a Saiyan. That’s also used as the reason for why he loves fighting in general.

To be clear, I’m not suggesting that it’s bad for Goku to have a constant desire to push himself. I just don’t see why being an alien has to be used to justify that. It’s unnecessary.

[jjgp1112]

Again, Goku was the one who suggested using Fusion to defeat Boo, and this was before he even had the chance to fight Boo himself.

He suggested Fusion when he thought there was no chance, yeah. I forgot that one. But again. Buu was gonna destroy the universe and they had no time. What did he do when he realized he could take Kid Buu? Crush the earrings.

[Saiga]

He also regretted doing once the fighting actually started.

Yeah, Goku won't choose to use fusion if he thinks he can win without it. But he will also be the first to suggest fusion when he's outmatched.

Originally, he wanted to use fusion over using Super Saiyan 3. He clearly doesn't have a strong aversion to it.