Watched Dragon Ball Z as a kid - interested in rewatching the series. What series/versions/releases should I pick/skip?

[ABED]

Don't think the TFS scene made it to broadcast or home video anyways though...

I watched the Blu-Rays and it was definitely in there.

Also is this REALLY the place to start micro-quoting about discussions we've had ten times over already in the past?

Fair enough, my bad.

[Robo4900]

Don't think the TFS scene made it to broadcast or home video anyways though...

I watched the Blu-Rays and it was definitely in there.

Also is this REALLY the place to start micro-quoting about discussions we've had ten times over already in the past?

I would argue this is quite relevant to the discussion over which versions of the show are best. A healthy argument about the merits of Kai is quite valuable to the potential viewing decisions of OP.

I was paying attention and I recall it being very close. If anything, it's precisely because it was as close as it was, the deviations stand out.

Heh. I'd argue that's not a good thing.
The deviations are rather incessant and frequent.

You really should've stopped right there..

Thanks for the tip! Next time I disagree with an opinion, I will not provide another view, because naturally, as we all know, opinons should just be left alone and unchallenged.

No, not flawless. No one is claiming it is, but not nearly as egregious as its detractors claim.

Sure. But "It's not as bad as its worst critics make out" is about as lukewarm a defence as one can possibly muster.

The Phantom Menace is not as bad as its biggest detractors make it out to be. It's still a pretty shitty movie.

Then stream it. The marginal cost of watching DBZ along with the other shows is effectively $0. Even if it is cropped, you aren't out much money.

... Or watch Kai, and thus don't watch an artistically butchered, bastardised version of the show. My point wasn't "You shouldn't give Funi money for this shit", my point is "You shouldn't watch this shit."

I did read that post and I have ZERO interest in discussing it line by line, but your point about "the lines are unnatural". I don't care. It's not a naturalistic show and I think the wordy dialog is fine. It works well for characters who usually don't speak before they talk.

When I read this, I understand your meaning to be "I don't care that the dialogue is bad because it's just a childrens' cartoon so why should I care?"
How close to the mark am I?

To save time -- assuming I've hit the nail on the head (which may or may not be the case, we'll see when you respond), I would contest that "I don't care if it's bad" is... Well... Y'know what, I'm not gonna bother. I shouldn't have to explain why "I don't care if the dialogue is written badly" is a bad-faith pile of nonsense that arguably doesn't even dignify a response.

(And before you say "Stop putting words in my mouth" -- note that I asked if I was correct, and then only put my response pre-emptively depending on if your answer is "Yes", which I predict it will be, but fully admit I may be wrong. So, to be clear, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm attempting to understand your meaning fully, and providing a response on the assumption that my understanding is correct, but with the acknowledgement that my understanding may not be correct)

[MasenkoHA]

... Or watch Kai, and thus don't watch an artistically butchered, bastardised version of the show. My point wasn't "I don't want to give Funi money for this shit", my point is "You shouldn't watch this shit."

Kai IS an artistically butchered, bastardized version of the show though. I probably wouldn't pay money to own the Blue Rays of Z but they're not so unwatchable that I would avoid them even if they were for free/$6 a month until I cancel my Funimation Subscription.

[Robo4900]

... Or watch Kai, and thus don't watch an artistically butchered, bastardised version of the show. My point wasn't "I don't want to give Funi money for this shit", my point is "You shouldn't watch this shit."

Kai IS an artistically butchered, bastardized version of the show though. I probably wouldn't pay money to own the Blue Rays of Z but they're not so unwatchable that I would avoid them even if they were for free/$6 a month until I cancel my Funimation Subscription.

Funi's Blu-rays are them presenting the original show with bastardised, artistically-butchered visuals that no one should ever suffer through. Kai is the guys in Japan recutting the show, producing it as almost a new show, reusing the old visuals, but voicing and scoring it as new. You can argue "They bastardised/butchered it!" all you like, but at best, you're turning my phrasing around on me when my meaning is clear (I was referring to how you must avoid Funi's shitty "remastering" and cropping at all costs), and at worst, you just don't like Kai and are trying to shoot me down because you have a distaste for the option I'm providing.

[Matches Malone]

Dragon Ball has 639 episodes, 3 TV specials, 3 OVAS, and 20 movies. Let's cut that down a bit (or a lot, depending on how you look at things).

Dragon Ball:
1-28
The first 2-3 minutes of episode 29
58-78
84-126
133-148

Dragon Ball Z (Kai):
1-42
Bardock: The Father of Goku.
43-86
The History of Trunks.
87-100
102-164
Battle of Gods: Extended Cut.
166-167

After you see this, I believe you will have seen the essential of what DB has to offer, and any further viewing is optional.

Honorable mention: If the above isn't enough, this is what you can watch after BOG:
Resurrection F
Super episodes 27 (better ending to RF), 28-41, 47-67, 77-83, 91-131
Broly

Dishonorable mention: Dragon Ball GT. Don't get close to this thing, and if you have copies of it, burn them with fire.

[MasenkoHA]

... Or watch Kai, and thus don't watch an artistically butchered, bastardised version of the show. My point wasn't "I don't want to give Funi money for this shit", my point is "You shouldn't watch this shit."

Kai IS an artistically butchered, bastardized version of the show though. I probably wouldn't pay money to own the Blue Rays of Z but they're not so unwatchable that I would avoid them even if they were for free/$6 a month until I cancel my Funimation Subscription.

Funi's Blu-rays are them presenting the original show with bastardised, artistically-butchered visuals that no one should ever suffer through. Kai is the guys in Japan recutting the show, producing it as almost a new show, reusing the old visuals, but voicing and scoring it as new. You can argue "They bastardised/butchered it!" all you like, but at best, you're turning my phrasing around on me when my meaning is clear (I was referring to how you must avoid Funi's shitty "remastering" and cropping at all costs), and at worst, you just don't like Kai and are trying to shoot me down because you have a distaste for the option I'm providing.

Most of the redrawn scenes in Kai look terrible and stick out like a sore thumb



^I personally found crap like this way more annoying than anything on the Blue Ray of Z. (Personal opinion of course different strokes for different folks)

The first score is plagiarized and annoyingly repetitive (I think they had like 8 tracks?) the replacement score is a poor misrepresentation of the Kikuchi score. The less said about Sumitomo’s music the better.

And then there’s the censorship.

Just because the butchering came from Toei themselves doesn’t make it better.

I’m not saying Kai should be avoided it has its own merits both dubbed and in Japanese. I just don’t think Kai is a superior option even between Kai and Funimation’s official releases of Z.

[KBABZ]

I would advise against the Extended Cut of Battle of Gods, personally. I saw it as my first viewing of the movie and it was slow as molasses with all the Pilaf stuff. Normal Cut is fine.

[MasenkoHA]

Dragon Ball:
1-28
The first 2-3 minutes of episode 29
58-78
84-126
133-148

There’s absolutely no good or justifiable reason to skip most of the Red Ribbon arc.

[Matches Malone]

There’s absolutely no good or justifiable reason to skip most of the Red Ribbon arc.

The first half (for me) slows down all the momentum gained during the 21st Tenkaichi, and considering there isn't much, if anything essential to the overall plot, I think it can be skipped. I'm not saying that's THE way to watch DB, it's just my list of what I believe provides the best and essential DB experience, he/she can take it as is, add or cut it down, or just watch everything with DB's name on it.

I would advise against the Extended Cut of Battle of Gods, personally. I saw it as my first viewing of the movie and it was slow as molasses with all the Pilaf stuff. Normal Cut is fine.

I don't the the extended cut adds any Pilaf, that was all (or most) in the original cut. It actually answers some questions, such as why Goku was fine after his first fight with Beerus.

[Grimlock]

Honorable mention: Resurrection F

Dishonorable mention: Dragon Ball GT.

Really?

[Matches Malone]

Honorable mention: Resurrection F

Dishonorable mention: Dragon Ball GT.

Really?

GT is hard for me to get through. I tried watching it again last year, and even with me cutting episodes out, such as the majority of the first arc, it was still a pain to watch. I remember even dropping it a few times to take a break from it. RF is an average, maybe even underwhelming movie, but I can still watch it. Would I recommend either ? No, if you've seen my main list, I'd recommend trying out other anime instead. But, if I had to recommend one, I'd go with RF and Super, as despite them and GT not being good continuations, RF and Super are at least watchable, which is more than I can say for GT.

[ABED]

When I read this, I understand your meaning to be "I don't care that the dialogue is bad because it's just a childrens' cartoon so why should I care?"
How close to the mark am I?

To save time -- assuming I've hit the nail on the head (which may or may not be the case, we'll see when you respond), I would contest that "I don't care if it's bad" is... Well... Y'know what, I'm not gonna bother. I shouldn't have to explain why "I don't care if the dialogue is written badly" is a bad-faith pile of nonsense that arguably doesn't even dignify a response.

(And before you say "Stop putting words in my mouth" -- note that I asked if I was correct, and then only put my response pre-emptively depending on if your answer is "Yes", which I predict it will be, but fully admit I may be wrong. So, to be clear, I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm attempting to understand your meaning fully, and providing a response on the assumption that my understanding is correct, but with the acknowledgement that my understanding may not be correct)

Why not just wait for a response? What's with the "in case I'm right"? No, I don't think the dialog is bad. Wordy, sure, but I like that. I'm fine with wordy dialog. So you are way off the mark. If you truly were asking, you would just ask, you would have done more than ask the damn question. I get why the wordy clearly faster paced dialog might bother some, but I enjoy it and feel it works for DB. Naturalistic dialog doesn't equal good dialog. No one talks like characters do in Elmore Leonard novels or Aaron Sorkin scripts, but their dialog is so good.

Sure. But "It's not as bad as its worst critics make out" is about as lukewarm a defence as one can possibly muster.

Fine, let me put it another way, I think Kai's detractors overblow its flaws while overlooking its considerable virtues. Yeah, it's clearly a cheap product but that's Toei's business model, low cost, high output. I'm more than fine with them taking shortcuts for something like this. Yeah, it would've been nice if Toei started completely from scratch, but these were the cards they are dealt. It's the equivalent to frozen pizza - not great but if you're hungry and don't feel like going out, it'll do. It's still pizza.

Anyway, my suggestion, and I know it's time consuming, but I would suggest watching it all then deciding for yourself.

[10gigtriforce]

if you want it as close as possible to as a kid viewing... The db saga sets dvds, and the z and gt dvd singles.

[Grimlock]

GT is hard for me to get through. I tried watching it again last year, and even with me cutting episodes out, such as the majority of the first arc, it was still a pain to watch. I remember even dropping it a few times to take a break from it. RF is an average, maybe even underwhelming movie, but I can still watch it. Would I recommend either ? No, if you've seen my main list, I'd recommend trying out other anime instead. But, if I had to recommend one, I'd go with RF and Super, as despite them and GT not being good continuations, RF and Super are at least watchable, which is more than I can say for GT.

I think Baby saga is a very decent one. I mean, on one you have a good and new antagonist who literally grows up as he infects someone's body and his "humble" first appearances were very interesting. On the other hand you have a comeback of an old villain who didn't need to be back, he recolors his final form, dies again and the credits start to roll. Without bringing any substantial or meaningful thing.

If you could turn your brain off, the Shadow Dragons is watchable too. It's kinda cool seeing Goku and Pan searching for the dragon balls in which will be an enemy. Some will use elements to attack and that's a plus.

All in all, I really don't see how Movie 15 can be better than these two sagas. They have much more to offer than that horrible movie.

[MasenkoHA]

if you want it as close as possible to as a kid viewing... The db saga sets dvds, and the z and gt dvd singles.

I should point out as much as many of us like to pretend otherwise (including myself I am incredibly guilty of this) at the end of the day the "Remastered" dub isn't THAT different from what Funimation originally put out. Most people, especially people who haven't watched the show since it was on Toonami in the late 90s-mid 2000s aren't going to notice that some minor characters have been redubbed with completely different actors or that some of the cast redubbed their lines to sound how people would remember them.

Watching the remastered dub with the US Broadcast music (which I can't recommend in good faith but still) is going to trigger that nostalgic endorphin. Both the original Z dub and the remastered Z dub are entirely shit one is just awkward because it goes from a Canadian cast that can act to a US cast that can't but shows marginal improvement as they go on the other is awkward because it starts with the US based cast in their most polished form (For Z) to a Frankenstein dub where some of them still sound like that (until they don't) and some now sound like shit and are clearly using older recording equipment but then it goes back to being about the same. If you're going to watch Dragon Ball Z dubbed (or the original and GT for that matter) quality is clearly not a concern and the revised dub is close enough to what people remember.


The DB saga sets dvds have the first 13 episodes with the edited Canadian voiced dub that's even more obscure than the original Z Canadian voiced dub. The Blue Bricks are just the better option for people who remember Dragon Ball on Toonami since it has the same consistent cast the whole way through. Funimation also made next to no changes between how they originally dubbed Dragon Ball with their cast and how it was released in the season sets. A few voice filters that nobody but super hardcore fans are going to notice were lost. That's it.

Watching GT with the green brick season sets or the dvd singles, I can't imagine there's anything that significantly different other than the season sets have the remakes of the Japanese OP and ED and the singles have that atrocious Step into the Grand Tour Rap (are people really nostalgic for that? I know people who are nostalgic for Rock the Dragon and the Faulconer productions music I've never met an actual person who was like yesss that theme was a banger)

[Matches Malone]

All in all, I really don't see how Movie 15 can be better than these two sagas. They have much more to offer than that horrible movie.

Those arcs for sure have better ideas, but the execution wasn't very good at all. If those 2 were 90 minute movies like RF, that'd be a different story, but GT's quality isn't worth the episodes it takes to sit through.

if you want it as close as possible to as a kid viewing... The db saga sets dvds, and the z and gt dvd singles.

That'd cost too much and take forever to collect. I think Z has over 85 sets.

[Robo4900]

if you want it as close as possible to as a kid viewing... The db saga sets dvds, and the z and gt dvd singles.

That'd cost too much and take forever to collect. I think Z has over 85 sets.

Cost isn't really a problem; those singles tend to go quite cheap. Collecting them would likely be difficult, though; there are A LOT of them. Plus, they take up a fuckton of shelf space.

Why not just wait for a response?

I'd rather finish a train of thought and put it out there, even if it's based on a pretense that may ultimately prove false. No harm in it, after all. I'm constantly saying things based on assumptions I'll later find out are false, so no reason that knowing this may happen in this case specifically should stop me from proceeding, provided I've acknowledged the reality at play.

What's with the "in case I'm right"? No, I don't think the dialog is bad. Wordy, sure, but I like that. I'm fine with wordy dialog.

I said the lines are unnatural, indistinct, and overly-wordy, which is three criticisms, and a more sophisticated way of saying "The dialogue is bad." And in response to that, you said "I don't care. It's not a naturalistic show and I think the wordy dialog is fine. It works well for characters who usually don't speak before they talk." ... So you don't care that the dialogue is unnatural, wordy, and indistinct, therefore bad. That was what I gleaned from what you said. I voiced a ciriticism, pointing out that the dialogue is bad, and you said that you don't care. That was my read.

My apologies if I read you wrong, but if my read is wrong, I'm not sure what I am supposed to read here. Perhaps the problem is you're not reading me correctly?... I'll go into this a little more next:

So you are way off the mark. If you truly were asking, you would just ask, you would have done more than ask the damn question. I get why the wordy clearly faster paced dialog might bother some, but I enjoy it and feel it works for DB. Naturalistic dialog doesn't equal good dialog. No one talks like characters do in Elmore Leonard novels or Aaron Sorkin scripts, but their dialog is so good.

It's not a case of "naturalistic dialogue isn't always best suited to things", or "wordy dialogue can be a bad thing but is fine here", it's a case of several issues, including "nothing distinguishes this dialogue as coming from this character", and "even really good actors struggle to make this not come off super stilted because of how badly written this dialogue is."
I'm not suggesting Dragon Ball should be written "naturalistically", but the dialogue should be natural, if that makes any sense. It should feel like "Yes, this character would think and say this, as it is, at this moment, in this situation." even if it's not something a real human would say in the real world. But, Funimation's dialogue is stilted, there's nothing to distinguish one character from another (read any line in the Funi Kai dub in the relevant character's voice in your head, then read it in another's, then another's, then another's... There are occasional moments of brilliance, like Freeza's "You simian bastard!!" etc., but they're rare). It doesn't feel natural that these characters, in this world, would say these things how they're saying them. It's badly-written dialogue.

We've seen good dialogue in Dragon Ball many times before, in the Pioneer dubs, in the Blue Water dubs, even in Kai, we have Simmons' subtitles, which read quite naturally, and the characters have distinct voices in the dialogue. And it works great. That's how it should be; not every single element of meaning in the original lines is reflected in the dub script, but there's enough there that the intent is properly preserved, and they don't try to shove in their own nonsense on top. And with them not trying to cram so much into the dialogue, they have a lot of room to write the lines to sound like dialogue the character in question would say, as well as just making the lines feel more natural in general. It's still not the kind of dialogue that a real human in our real world would say to another, but, for instance, there's that line I pointed out in that huge-ass post in the other thread, that feels tailor-made for Scott McNeil's Piccolo, "When I'm finished with you, Garlic, you'll wish you were dead -- you'll be helpless! Try to imagine how it'll feel to live unable to do anything with all that power you possess... Then you'll know what hell is really like." It's a weird thing for a person to say, but it's 100% something that Piccolo, as played by Scott McNeil, would say in this particular situation, and it's difficult to imagine other characters saying this. Goku wouldn't say anything like this, neither would Vegeta, nor Gohan, Trunks, Cell, Freeza, Tao Pai-Pai... It's a Piccolo line.
Meanwhile, in Kai, every line is written in the same voice, and it's all very clunky. This COULD be made to work, with a great cast, but it's also super wordy on top of that, which makes it impossible to make the dialogue sound any good.
That's my view on it.

Fine, let me put it another way, I think Kai's detractors overblow its flaws while overlooking its considerable virtues. Yeah, it's clearly a cheap product but that's Toei's business model, low cost, high output. I'm more than fine with them taking shortcuts for something like this. Yeah, it would've been nice if Toei started completely from scratch, but these were the cards they are dealt. It's the equivalent to frozen pizza - not great but if you're hungry and don't feel like going out, it'll do. It's still pizza.

Fair enough.

But again, "its detractors overblow its flaws while overlooking its considerable virtues" could be said about basically anything that's at least vaguely decent. The rest of your point, fair enough, I agree. Kai was clearly a cheap cash-in product that skipped some of the best material for marketing reasons, lazily recycled/redrew the original artwork, etc., but it's a cash-in based on the last 325 episodes of one of the most enduring mangas there's ever been, using the utterly brilliant original Japanese cast (at least, those that were alive at the time), and with a score taken from one of the more well-liked video game composers of the time. And it gave the dubs a chance to take another swing at dubbing the "Z" storylines ten years or more after their original go-around. And for Funi's version specifically, they screwed up A LOT, but they also, for the first time, produced an actually serviceable Dragon Ball dub, so...
As you say, it's frozen pizza. Not the best version of itself it could be, but it's fine. It does the job. You want some pizza, this is pizza.

Anyway, my suggestion, and I know it's time consuming, but I would suggest watching it all then deciding for yourself.

I have seen some of it. Granted, not all of it, but, I have indeed watched a good bit of it. IIRC when it was new, I watched everything up to somewhere in the Namek arc. Funimation uncut dub. And I have seen a lot of bits of it more recently, both uncut and edited, as well as in Japanese.
But ultimately, if I want to spend this much time watching Dragon Ball again... I only have so much time to spend on these things, so I'd rather spend it watching the original run, y'know?
Still, I'll say this -- if/when Ocean's Kai dub ever comes out, I'll watch the ever-living shit out of every single episode of Kai forever.

[ABED]

I disagree about the dialog not being distinct. I can hear the difference between a Goku line, a Freeza line, a Vegeta line, etc. The dialog doesn't come off as stilted. It's the DBZ dialog that is problematic. You feel differently, fair enough. I have no problem distinguishing their verbiage.

Simmons translations aren't dialog. They don't even have to look natural, nor does it have to fit mouth flaps. Therein lies the problem, or at least a problem perhaps. The tail is wagging the dog. And I understand what you mean by an unnatural naturalness. It's like theater. No one talks like that, but in theater you have to project.

Kai was clearly a cheap cash-in product that skipped some of the best material for marketing reasons

Which in itself was a cash in product by a company whose business model is seemingly about creating the most for the least amount possible. I don't know what you mean by skipped some of the best material. Do you mean skipping to DBZ?

Sorry, that last comment was directed at the original poster. My bad for not making it clear. If anyone likes DB, they shouldn't skip anything the first time through. That's always been my suggestion for anything like this. I know people are strapped for time, but it's not like deciding whether to watch a new show where you only give it so much time to get good before tapping out. You already know you like it, so you may as well watch it all. However, if GT or Super don't float your boat after a few episodes, don't watch them. They may be continuations but feel removed from the actual source material. And for the record, I give shows no more than three episodes to grab my attention in some way. After that, I don't care how much someone says the show improves, I'm not waiting around on the off chance it will get better. Hence why I refuse to watch Star Trek. I gave both the original and TNG a fair shot (2-3 episodes), and I'm simply not a fan.

[jjgp1112]

Robo, do you really have to do this in EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION about modern Funimation dubs?! Especially given how overblown and inconsequential the little quibbles are in the Kai dub. When you get to the point where you're telling other people how they're experience actually went and how they feel, maybe you should take a step back.

[TheBigBoy]

Hulu has both original Dragon Ball and GT subbed if you don't mind a few commercials.

Unfortunately Dragon Ball at least (and I assume GT) are set expire in a couple of weeks.

Thanks for the heads up. I have 11 episodes left of Dragon Ball (first time watching the show start to finish - I've really enjoyed it!). Guess GT will have to wait for some other time.