Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:11 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:29 am
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:57 am
MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:31 am
In terms of writting DBS is like DB:GT.
Not exactly. Unlike GT, Super is actually fun to watch and has good fight scenes. GT on the other hand is the most boring thing to come out of the franchise, with the fights having little to no choreography.
Well, the fight choreographies are not writting, they're animation.
True that DB:GT's fights were the worst of the worst because they lacked everything but DBS (anime at least) also sacrifices another pillar of the DB fights: internal coherence.
Seeing SSJ2 Trunks having lost against SSJ3 Goku fighting SSJ Rose Black toe to toe while SSJ Blue Goku and SSJBlue Vegeta were totally overpowered just a chapter later kills my enjoyment of the fights nearly as much. Why do I have to be invested in a fight that I know will be resolved with any last minute ass-pulled technique/power-up?
How many times did Goku magically restore his strength in the ToP? Good writting is the basis for any good DB fight, and Toei lacks the knowledge on how to do this.

Regards!
I can't remember a single time when SS2 Trunks fought Rosé Black, aside from that one time he came out of nowhere and parried Black's attack... which is followed by Black annihilating both Trunks and Goku with Rosé kamehameha.
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:20 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:29 am
Why do I have to be invested in a fight that I know will be resolved with any last minute ass-pulled technique/power-up? How many times did Goku magically restore his strength in the ToP? Good writting is the basis for any good DB fight, and Toei lacks the knowledge on how to do this.
Super had some terrible writing, you won't see me argue against that. I just think that if my brain is going to be stuck with bad writing, my eyes should be entertained with good animated fights. When I watch anything DB, the last thing I should be is bored, which is exactly what GT makes me.

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by emperior » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:22 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm
that really depends on arcs

U6 arc anime >>> U6 arc manga

Zamasu arc anime <<< zamasu arc manga

Top arc anime >>> Top arc manga
Very debatable. U6 arc in the anime is pretty bad aside from a few episodes like the streak from 37 to 41, and even then the climax of Goku vs Hit is better in the manga.

Overall the manga’s U6 arc is better written and more consistent, while the anime has better dialogue between Vegeta and Cabba (at the end of their fight), a stellar episode (38) and probably a better dynamic between Goku and Hit, but the bad art and animation throughout the entire arc really brings it down and makes most of it un-enjoyable on rewatches. Not to mention how terribly uninspired the setting of the tournament is there, in contrast to the manga’s more simple approach, which also fits better with the whole Egyptian motif of Gods of Destruction.

One thing I will say about Toei, is that when they are at the top of their game they produce some absolutely amazing stuff from Dragon Ball, but then the rest of the stuff they put out ranges from incredibly mid to outright terrible. And, unfortunately, they have produced far worse stuff than good.

Super is a prime example of it. Some episodes are incredibly memorable, and I can remember them on the spot: 16, 18, 37, 38, 39, 47, 48, 50, 56, 57, 66, 86, 90, 94, 95, 105, 109, 110, 116, 118, 122, 130, 131. I think these are the episodes where I basically have no complains or very little to complain about; they are the only ones I like to rewatch.
They make up roughly 18% of the show.
But what about the rest? Very mediocre. Some episodes are average, some are great (ex. 12, 13, 14, 32, 69, 70, 71, 75, 77, 79, 80, 81, 82, 111, 114, 115, 125, 128, 129) but most are just bad, unfortunately, and rewatching them makes it even more clear.
Sure, there are some nice scenes here and there even in the mediocre or bad episodes, such as Goku punching Monaka, but aside from those scenes the rest of the episode is either badly animated, badly written or both. And that really brings down the whole show, sadly.
While the manga, for example, is mostly solid all throughout it. Its lowest points aren’t as low as the anime’s, but it’s highest points also aren’t as high as the anime’s.
So, apart, from those amazing episodes I listed above (and probably the great ones too), I would rather watch BoG, RoF and re-read the manga than rewatching Super. And it would also be less time-consuming. While I could just find clips of the nice scenes of Super’s anime on YouTube and watch those, without having to go through a whole episode of mediocrity.

If Toei could produce a Dragon Ball show which is consistently good with 90% of episodes on the same level as the ones I mentioned, then I have no doubt that said show would blow my mind.
Can they do it? Who knows. I am 100% sure they can be perfectly capable of doing a great Dragon Ball Super show under a good schedule and using Shintani’s designs, so hopefully that will happen in the future. I think most of Super’s issues were also a result of the terrible schedule, in fact the few good episodes are also the ones which obviously had more production time.
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by MechaTrunks » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:11 am
I can't remember a single time when SS2 Trunks fought Rosé Black, aside from that one time he came out of nowhere and parried Black's attack... which is followed by Black annihilating both Trunks and Goku with Rosé kamehameha.
The very 1st round of the fight. Vegeta is dispatched pretty fast, and then it's Goku & Trunks vs Rose and Zamatsu.
SSJBlue Goku loses fight after figth to both Rosé and Zamatsu and Trunks performs much, much better against both of them (they surely were desperate to give him the central role in that saga, even before the ass-pull rage-boost).
Matches Malone wrote:Super had some terrible writing, you won't see me argue against that. I just think that if my brain is going to be stuck with bad writing, my eyes should be entertained with good animated fights. When I watch anything DB, the last thing I should be is bored, which is exactly what GT makes me.
Yeah in that I completely agree.
Super's writting is bad, but at least it has very good/entertaining fighting choreographies and very well animated episodes.
emperior wrote:...
Yeah, you're right about the inconsistency of Toei.
Particularly mindblowing I found to be chapters 94&95, those chapters are legit not only in terms of animation, but also in terms of writting are among the best in the whole DB series.
I don't know what happened there: interesting dialogues, characters that weren't retarded (Goku was at his very best in those chapters), even the filler plot of the U9 assassins and how Freeza negotiated with the U9 god of destruction just to test the waters but with not even the sligthest intention of joining them... it's as if suddenly they found someone that actually tried and they dispatched him immediatly afterwards because never in the series such writting quality is seen again.

Regards!

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:47 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:11 am
I can't remember a single time when SS2 Trunks fought Rosé Black, aside from that one time he came out of nowhere and parried Black's attack... which is followed by Black annihilating both Trunks and Goku with Rosé kamehameha.
The very 1st round of the fight. Vegeta is dispatched pretty fast, and then it's Goku & Trunks vs Rose and Zamatsu.
SSJBlue Goku loses fight after figth to both Rosé and Zamatsu and Trunks performs much, much better against both of them (they surely were desperate to give him the central role in that saga, even before the ass-pull rage-boost).
Okay, no, that's not what happened. Initially it was Goku vs. Future Zamasu, Goku got pushed back and cornered by Black and Zamasu. Black charged at Goku with the intention of hitting him, but his attack was parried by Trunks, who came out of nowhere. Black had no knowledge of Trunks coming in to save Goku, that's how Trunks was able to get a small hit on him.

After that, Goku fights Black while Trunks is intercepted by Future Zamasu. The next time Trunks and Black interact, is when Trunks is oneshot by Rosé Kamehameha. The next time Trunks doesn't get stomped by Black is when he has Rage already (he briefly fights Black in ep.61 with SS2 and gets demolished).

Also, don't pretend the manga doesn't have asspulls. Goku using hakai was not foreshadowed anywhere at all. If you're going to justify it with "he was training with Beerus so it makes sense he learned his techniques", I will justify Rage with "he was training with Blue Vegeta so it makes sense he learned some god ki".

Also.... they were desperate to give him the central role in the saga.... but then Zamasu defeats him and they have to call in Zeno to survive :?: Also, I mean, it's literally called "Future Trunks arc", so you'd expect Trunks to have a central role.
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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by coola » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:23 am

Danfun64 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:16 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:14 am
Ignoring Inoue Toshiki being...Inoue Toshiki
Who now?
I think she is talking about him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiki_Inoue
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by MechaTrunks » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:56 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:47 am
Okay, no, that's not what happened. Initially it was Goku vs. Future Zamasu, Goku got pushed back and cornered by Black and Zamasu. Black charged at Goku with the intention of hitting him, but his attack was parried by Trunks, who came out of nowhere. Black had no knowledge of Trunks coming in to save Goku, that's how Trunks was able to get a small hit on him.

After that, Goku fights Black while Trunks is intercepted by Future Zamasu. The next time Trunks and Black interact, is when Trunks is oneshot by Rosé Kamehameha. The next time Trunks doesn't get stomped by Black is when he has Rage already (he briefly fights Black in ep.61 with SS2 and gets demolished).
I found the vid in the internet (in latin spanish, but that's not what's important here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIfCU39jF4Y

1. Goku & Zamatsu (not black) are even, and in fact, I would say Zamatsu shows superiority over Goku.
2. Trunks doesn't parry Black's attack but counters it. The surprise factor may had been a thing when he entered, but he actually starts to punch Rose while Rose dodges and tries to punch Trunks and Trunks sends black against a wall. It's undeniable at that point that SSJ2 Trunks is performing better than SSJB that manages the feat of not connecting a single hit to Black in the whole fight.
3. In the part that follows the video, it's Trunks who discovers Zamatsu's immortality by killing him. So yeah, Trunks performs much, much better than the SSJBlue in that fight and is constantly doing things he shouldn't be able to do.


Regards

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:10 am

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:56 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:47 am
Okay, no, that's not what happened. Initially it was Goku vs. Future Zamasu, Goku got pushed back and cornered by Black and Zamasu. Black charged at Goku with the intention of hitting him, but his attack was parried by Trunks, who came out of nowhere. Black had no knowledge of Trunks coming in to save Goku, that's how Trunks was able to get a small hit on him.

After that, Goku fights Black while Trunks is intercepted by Future Zamasu. The next time Trunks and Black interact, is when Trunks is oneshot by Rosé Kamehameha. The next time Trunks doesn't get stomped by Black is when he has Rage already (he briefly fights Black in ep.61 with SS2 and gets demolished).
I found the vid in the internet (in latin spanish, but that's not what's important here):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIfCU39jF4Y

1. Goku & Zamatsu (not black) are even, and in fact, I would say Zamatsu shows superiority over Goku.
2. Trunks doesn't parry Black's attack but counters it. The surprise factor may had been a thing when he entered, but he actually starts to punch Rose while Rose dodges and tries to punch Trunks and Trunks sends black against a wall. It's undeniable at that point that SSJ2 Trunks is performing better than SSJB that manages the feat of not connecting a single hit to Zamasu or Black in the whole fight.
3. In the part that follows the video, it's Trunks who discovers Zamatsu's immortality by killing him. So yeah, Trunks performs much, much better than the SSJBlue in that fight and is constantly doing things he shouldn't be able to do.


Regards
1. No, Black comes in too at the end when he tries to hit Goku from above.

2. Again, Black was caught off-guard and wasn't expecting Trunks to get in, he couldn't react fast enough to counter him and got setback for a moment. That's still an outlier, because later on Rosé Black (who this time knew Trunks was in the fight) easily mopped the floor with him. Also, SSB Goku and Vegeta did way more to Black than Trunks in that fight. Previously SSB Vegeta had unleashed a flurry of fists on Black as soon as he went Rosé and managed to overpower him for a moment, then in this episode Goku actually fought Black evenly for much longer than Trunks. Both of them also didn't have element of surprise like Trunks so the fight wasn't biased in their favor.

3. Trunks didn't kill Zamasu, he just stabbed him. Goku and Vegeta both got stabbed in the chest in that arc and didn't die, stabbing someone doesn't mean instant death. Also, Future Zamasu is not even full SSB level, in the arc he does not display noteworthy feats against SSB opponents. Goku and Zamasu were mostly even in that brief skirmish, with Zamasu pushing him back for a few seconds before the fight got interrupted. When Goku and Zamasu next fight 1v1, Goku buries him in ki blasts. So SS2 Trunks being able to hit Zamasu does not seem far-fetched at all, especially since Zamasu was a very careless fighter who enjoyed being hit so that he could revel in his immortality.
Finally, it's Vegeta who had the largest contribution in that fight. If it wasn't for Vegeta's ki attack at the last moment, Black and Zamasu would've finished off Trunks and Goku and the show would've ended with their victory.
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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:05 am

Danfun64 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:16 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:14 am
Ignoring Inoue Toshiki being...Inoue Toshiki
Who now?
Inoue Toshiki is a writer for Japanese cartoons and live action dramas. He wrote numerous episodes of Dragon Ball, including the episode where Yamcha tells Pu-erh "I'm not a lolicon" after knocking out Chi-Chi and the episode where Very Obviously Cisgay Man falls in love with a middle school cis boy. His magnum opus insofar is Kamen Rider 555 (Faiz) in which women are treated like sacks of shit most of the time. He's kind of a weirdo, just going by the things he likes to write...like making General Blue interested in a middle school boy. Because that's totally a gay stereotype we need to see propagated.
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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:28 pm

Meh, Toei’s superior contributions were the exception rather than the rule. I still prefer the auteur’s vision above all else.

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by emperior » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:38 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:42 am
emperior wrote:...
Yeah, you're right about the inconsistency of Toei.
Particularly mindblowing I found to be chapters 94&95, those chapters are legit not only in terms of animation, but also in terms of writting are among the best in the whole DB series.
I don't know what happened there: interesting dialogues, characters that weren't retarded (Goku was at his very best in those chapters), even the filler plot of the U9 assassins and how Freeza negotiated with the U9 god of destruction just to test the waters but with not even the sligthest intention of joining them... it's as if suddenly they found someone that actually tried and they dispatched him immediatly afterwards because never in the series such writting quality is seen again.

Regards!
Yeah those two episodes are the best example of Toei at their absolute best in terms of writing Dragon Ball, especially episode 95.
Episode 94 was written by Toshio Yoshitaka while King Ryu wrote episode 95. Those two have have written, respectively, 28 and 29 episodes of Super. Among those there were bad, mediocre, average, good and awesome episodes of course.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycl ... p?id=17006

Were they particularly inspired when they wrote awesome episodes? I don’t think so. Maybe they had more time, or maybe it was the merit of the series director - or both.

Episode 95 was probably that good due to Nagamine’s help. It’s probably Super’s best episode, or at least in the Top 5.
For sure it was one of those episodes which received more love and therefore more production time.

My conclusion is that as with animation, we have to consider the influence of time on the writing too. It’s not a surprise to see that almost all of the best animated and directed episodes of Super were also the ones written the best.
Those episodes probably went through many rough drafts and received corrections and suggestions by the series director, the DB Room and maybe sometimes even by Toriyama himself.

That’s why I am optimistic about Toei and all the parties involved in the creation and writing of Super to be able to deliver a well written show in the future, if they learned from their past mistakes and produce a show under the best production possible.
Toei’s latest shows are all very healthy production-wise, so Super’s next anime if it happens will also most likely have a lot of pre-production time and talented staff.
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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by ABED » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:11 pm

Your sample size is rather small. Yes, those specials are among DB's best works, but I think it's a stretch to say those two proveToei's best work was when they did their own thing, especially when one of the two is just a Toriyama's side story but in animated and expanded form. They also wrote a fair amount of bad stuff.
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:27 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:31 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm
ZeroNeonix wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:06 pm
Aside from some sketches here and there, weren't they pretty much doing their own thing in GT? And they may be following a basic guideline from Toriyama now in Super, but as the many differences between the anime and the manga show, that leaves a ton of room for creative license. And their contributions include poorly explained, out of nowhere, transformations that contribute nothing within the narrative. Also, I feel like the manga did a much better job of explaining all of the confusing time traveling that happened in the Zamasu arc.
that really depends on arcs

U6 arc anime >>> U6 arc manga

Zamasu arc anime <<< zamasu arc manga

Top arc anime >>> Top arc manga
Sorry?
U6 arc in the anime better than in the manga? Well, if you like nonsensical fights and base Goku above SSJBlue Vegeta ok, but the KKx10 vs Hit fight was laughable in terms of writting.
ToP in the anime wasn't even a battle royale, it had some very well animated scenes and that's it.

In terms of writting DBS is like DB:GT while the manga of DBS while having some errors here and there mostly pases as a decent continuation of the original manga.
goku also fights in ssj in the manga ...
goku ssj> vegeta SSB?

I think it's obvious ... that hit is holding back with goku at first ... since goku is not fighting seriously
vegeta cannot with 1000 tons
false ....

roshi vs jiren is pure shit .....
no, don't invent that the manga is more coherent that story and nobody believes it ...
please .... anime top is better than top manga in every way in development, consistency and battles

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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by coola » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:11 pm
Your sample size is rather small. Yes, those specials are among DB's best works, but I think it's a stretch to say those two proveToei's best work was when they did their own thing, especially when one of the two is just a Toriyama's side story but in animated and expanded form. They also wrote a fair amount of bad stuff.
Sorry, i should be more specific, i mean in general, when Toei tries to do their own things with characters, without trying to emulate/copy Toriyama's work, like they portray Goku in Movies, as more serious character, that isnt hesitant to kill bad guy :)
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:19 pm

emperior wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:22 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:13 pm
that really depends on arcs

U6 arc anime >>> U6 arc manga

Zamasu arc anime <<< zamasu arc manga

Top arc anime >>> Top arc manga
Very debatable. U6 arc in the anime is pretty bad aside from a few episodes like the streak from 37 to 41, and even then the climax of Goku vs Hit is better in the manga.

Overall the manga’s U6 arc is better written and more consistent, while the anime has better dialogue between Vegeta and Cabba (at the end of their fight), a stellar episode (38) and probably a better dynamic between Goku and Hit, but the bad art and animation throughout the entire arc really brings it down and makes most of it un-enjoyable on rewatches. Not to mention how terribly uninspired the setting of the tournament is there, in contrast to the manga’s more simple approach, which also fits better with the whole Egyptian motif of Gods of Destruction.

One thing I will say about Toei, is that when they are at the top of their game they produce some absolutely amazing stuff from Dragon Ball, but then the rest of the stuff they put out ranges from incredibly mid to outright terrible. And, unfortunately, they have produced far worse stuff than good.

Super is a prime example of it. Some episodes are incredibly memorable, and I can remember them on the spot: 16, 18, 37, 38, 39, 47, 48, 50, 56, 57, 66, 86, 90, 94, 95, 105, 109, 110, 116, 118, 122, 130, 131. I think these are the episodes where I basically have no complains or very little to complain about; they are the only ones I like to rewatch.
They make up roughly 18% of the show.
But what about the rest? Very mediocre. Some episodes are average, some are great (ex. 12, 13, 14, 32, 69, 70, 71, 75, 77, 79, 80, 81, 82, 111, 114, 115, 125, 128, 129) but most are just bad, unfortunately, and rewatching them makes it even more clear.
Sure, there are some nice scenes here and there even in the mediocre or bad episodes, such as Goku punching Monaka, but aside from those scenes the rest of the episode is either badly animated, badly written or both. And that really brings down the whole show, sadly.
While the manga, for example, is mostly solid all throughout it. Its lowest points aren’t as low as the anime’s, but it’s highest points also aren’t as high as the anime’s.
So, apart, from those amazing episodes I listed above (and probably the great ones too), I would rather watch BoG, RoF and re-read the manga than rewatching Super. And it would also be less time-consuming. While I could just find clips of the nice scenes of Super’s anime on YouTube and watch those, without having to go through a whole episode of mediocrity.

If Toei could produce a Dragon Ball show which is consistently good with 90% of episodes on the same level as the ones I mentioned, then I have no doubt that said show would blow my mind.
Can they do it? Who knows. I am 100% sure they can be perfectly capable of doing a great Dragon Ball Super show under a good schedule and using Shintani’s designs, so hopefully that will happen in the future. I think most of Super’s issues were also a result of the terrible schedule, in fact the few good episodes are also the ones which obviously had more production time.
that vegeta ssj cannot lift 1000 tons but goku base in frieza saga destroy islands seems inconsistent to me
or that vegeta cannot beat a hit due to the wear and tear he suffered when transforming himself once seems to me an excuse taken out of the ass taking into account the time he had to train

incidentally toei had more creativity in the vegeta vs magetta fight, adding skills and techniques making the match more memorable and interesting
I honestly don't see any inconsistencies in Universe 6 arc the only bad thing is the animation but that didn't stop most of the fights from being great and a bit more creative
I don't remember anything interesting in hit vs goku manga since it was a match that goku was going to win by power only

while in hit vs goku anime ... there comes a point where anyone would have won if they fought to the end, power vs. skill

but no ... the series is not all power levels or consistency many times as long as the combat remains memorable and epic or there is a development in the established characters these defects can be forgiven ... an example would be the original manga also has its defects but also its virtues

You are comparing completely different formats ... I could see cell saga again but I would not with ... episodes of goku playing with tao that does not mean that the episodes are terrible just because they exist they can be entertaining or funny at least at times when watching to characters out of combat

read the manga top, waste 80 fighters ...
the majority had no development, there were no interesting interactions or dialogues between the characters, the fights were not creative at all and the characters were pathetic for the most part it nauseates me ... so much mediocrity

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by Kiyoharu » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:45 am

emperior wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:22 am
U6 arc in the anime is pretty bad
Agree.

Image
Image

I still have nightmares from the Goku vs Botamo fight.

U6 arc was horrible in the anime.

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by MechaTrunks » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:51 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:27 pm

goku also fights in ssj in the manga ...
goku ssj> vegeta SSB?

I think it's obvious ... that hit is holding back with goku at first ... since goku is not fighting seriously
vegeta cannot with 1000 tons
false ....

roshi vs jiren is pure shit .....
no, don't invent that the manga is more coherent that story and nobody believes it ...
please .... anime top is better than top manga in every way in development, consistency and battles
Yeah but in the manga SSJB Blue vegeta had less than 1/10th his power. I can see SSJ Goku adapting to Hit's time-skip surpassing less than 1/10th of SSJBlue Vegeta, what I can't see is Base Goku surpassing full power SSJ Blue Vegeta (anime).

Regarding the tons that Vegeta can or can't lift, remember that Goku couldn't lift even 40 tons in his base state in the Bu saga without turning into a SSJ.
So yeah, even if you don't like it, that was coherent with what had been seen in the series regarding weight lifting.

Roshi vs Jiren pure shit? It's an example of excellent writting: since killing was forbidden in the ToP Jiren could only fight Roshi with a tiny, small fraction of his power.
Roshi on the other hand had much, much better movements than his PL would indicate, making it "difficult" for Jiren to defeat him while also containing his strength to a point where he couldn't kill Roshi, and that allowed Goku to see Goku's movements and learn the UI.
And you are telling me that you actually prefere Goku learning the UI because he was impacted by a Genkidama? I mean, I've seen nonsensical explanations in my life and I still think that the UI from a Genkidama bullshit surpasses almost everything.

Regards!

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Re: Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:53 am

coola wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:27 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:11 pm
Your sample size is rather small. Yes, those specials are among DB's best works, but I think it's a stretch to say those two proveToei's best work was when they did their own thing, especially when one of the two is just a Toriyama's side story but in animated and expanded form. They also wrote a fair amount of bad stuff.
Sorry, i should be more specific, i mean in general, when Toei tries to do their own things with characters, without trying to emulate/copy Toriyama's work, like they portray Goku in Movies, as more serious character, that isnt hesitant to kill bad guy :)
Hard disagree. I like that Goku lets them survive to fight later. That doesn't make him less serious. I fail to see why "serious" Goku is better.
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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:42 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:51 am
Yeah but in the manga SSJB Blue vegeta had less than 1/10th his power. I can see SSJ Goku adapting to Hit's time-skip surpassing less than 1/10th of SSJBlue Vegeta, what I can't see is Base Goku surpassing full power SSJ Blue Vegeta (anime).

Regarding the tons that Vegeta can or can't lift, remember that Goku couldn't lift even 40 tons in his base state in the Bu saga without turning into a SSJ.
So yeah, even if you don't like it, that was coherent with what had been seen in the series regarding weight lifting.

Roshi vs Jiren pure shit? It's an example of excellent writting: since killing was forbidden in the ToP Jiren could only fight Roshi with a tiny, small fraction of his power.
Roshi on the other hand had much, much better movements than his PL would indicate, making it "difficult" for Jiren to defeat him while also containing his strength to a point where he couldn't kill Roshi, and that allowed Goku to see Goku's movements and learn the UI.
And you are telling me that you actually prefere Goku learning the UI because he was impacted by a Genkidama? I mean, I've seen nonsensical explanations in my life and I still think that the UI from a Genkidama bullshit surpasses almost everything.

Regards!
that's stupid because the difference between SSJ and SSB should be great is idiotic that exist a wear of that level when they have been training for a long time worse than vegeta has known this and still did
Image
Hit is contained with goku since he is not transformed as an vegeta ssb and this himself makes it understood in both versions
and both are basically the same it is hypocritical to say that one is wrong and the other is not

and goku base can break islands in namek something no one can do with 40 tons or in any case vegeta ssj had already surpassed the power of goku ssj3 but he can not hold 1000 tons lol

I prefer it 1000 times taking into account that it makes sense because whis explained the bases of the UI to goku and by the words of the angel goku was the one indicated to achieve it in addition to having that power pressure served as a trigger to achieve it.

roshi vs jiren is an example of shit writing ... because jiren had to leave ko with a blow given his personality and power, roshi has knowledge that a mortal should not know in addition to defeating kahseral who was fighting with goku ssj etc etc

roshi vs jiren >>>> any inconsistency of toei

if you want to answer me do it on the other topic because there is no point in discussing the same

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Re: Toei was at its best, when it did their own thing

Post by MechaTrunks » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:28 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:42 pm
that's stupid because the difference between SSJ and SSB should be great is idiotic that exist a wear of that level when they have been training for a long time worse than vegeta has known this and still did
Oh wow hahahah who are you to decide if a transformation being hard to the body or not is stupid? I mean you may not like it but stupid is when something contradicts itself or doesn't make sense, not when you don't like it.
Tai Lung wrote:Hit is contained with goku since he is not transformed as an vegeta ssb and this himself makes it understood in both versions
and both are basically the same it is hypocritical to say that one is wrong and the other is not
Hit may be contained with base Goku and even with SSJ Goku because he knew Goku was still hidding the Blue form, ok.
But anime Hit didn't know shit about the KKx10, so it's imposible that he was containing his strength to 1/10th while fighting SSJBlue Goku.

Again, the manga makes sense, the anime doesn't.
Tai Lung wrote:and goku base can break islands in namek something no one can do with 40 tons
Piccolo could blow the moon with a single ki blast and Goku that was stronger couldn't resist 10x gravity. So what? That's how Dragon Ball's fiction works.
You can do beastly things with your ki, but lifting weights is very limited for whatever reason the author thought. It doesn't matter why, the thing is that this is coherent with what was established in the original manga and thus, it can't be something bad from Super.
Tai Lung wrote: I prefer it 1000 times taking into account that it makes sense because whis explained the bases of the UI to goku and by the words of the angel goku was the one indicated to achieve it in addition to having that power pressure served as a trigger to achieve it.
Yeah yeah, it completely makes a lot of sense now. Oh wait a second, but wasn't the Genkidama a pure energy that could only be used against evil doers and didn't do damage to the good people of the world and that was why Gohan could make it rebound to Vegeta?
So the Genkidama shouldn't have even injured Goku (nor Jiren) to begin with.
So the words of the angel and a Genkidama is more coherent that Goku getting inspiration of his master in a way he didn't even suspect he would and reminding that he in fact had been trained in the UI since he was born because the martial arts from the earth are very advanced.

Well, that's a matter of preferences so I won't say you're wrong. Let's just agree to disagree here.
Tai Lung wrote: roshi vs jiren is an example of shit writing ... because jiren had to leave ko with a blow given his personality and power, roshi has knowledge that a mortal should not know in addition to defeating kahseral who was fighting with goku ssj etc etc
The whole point of that scene is that Roshi moves much above what his PL should allow him to do, and Jiren is adapting his strength to the PL he feels from Roshi thus missing him and Goku being able to learn the technique.
It's not inconsistent because Jiren can't kill Roshi. Again, inconsistent is that suddenly the Genkidama can explode against good people because it was established in the series that this can't happen (and you like it, by the way).

Toei isn't good at writting no matter how much you try to spin it.

Regards!

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