Toei was at their best when they did their own thing

[Tai Lung]

Oh wow hahahah who are you to decide if a transformation being hard to the body or not is stupid? I mean you may not like it but stupid is when something contradicts itself or doesn't make sense, not when you don't like it.

for 4 reasons
-mainly because there has never been such a big wear of someone with such a silly excuse before in z in any case show me when something like this happened in the original manga. Vegeta must have lost the transformation,
-The power difference between SSB and SSJ should be huge. .for which wear should not be relevant but that gives me to understand that it is not much ..
-Vegeta has been training for 4 months and a while x in what was coming in the tournament so that she cannot dominate her yet, it is not something recent
-that vegeta is so stupid to know that and still waste his energy uselessly

Hit may be contained with base Goku and even with SSJ Goku because he knew Goku was still hidding the Blue form, ok.
But anime Hit didn't know shit about the KKx10, so it's imposible that he was containing his strength to 1/10th while fighting SSJBlue Goku.

Again, the manga makes sense, the anime doesn't.

ok at least you accepted an argument of mine

the other is the same as in the other topic I will answer it there

You can do beastly things with your ki, but lifting weights is very limited for whatever reason the author thought. It doesn't matter why, the thing is that this is coherent with what was established in the original manga and thus, it can't be something bad from Super.t.

it would be an option but it would still be inconsistent ... because vegeta ssj is stronger than goku ssj 3 z and cannot even move 1000 tons it seems that they did not advance anything .. it was better not to say how much magetta weighed

Yeah yeah, it completely makes a lot of sense now. Oh wait a second, but wasn't the Genkidama a pure energy that could only be used against evil doers and didn't do damage to the good people of the world and that was why Gohan could make it rebound to Vegeta?
So the Genkidama shouldn't have even injured Goku (nor Jiren) to begin with.
So the words of the angel and a Genkidama is more coherent that Goku getting inspiration of his master in a way he didn't even suspect he would and reminding that he in fact had been trained in the UI since he was born because the martial arts from the earth are very advanced.

Well, that's a matter of preferences so I won't say you're wrong. Let's just agree to disagree here.

it was never said that the genkidama cannot harm good people only that they can be returned
and anyway kid buu can return the genkidama and he is evil
goku was without energy and at the limit something important to achieve the UI
it bothers me that a mortal knows something that only angels and gods should know but is not consistent even with merus this is emphasized
goku as a child were training to improve his senses and feel the ki
simple things that have little to do with the UI besides that roshi only train with korin but not with kami or king kai
the only one who should teach goku was whis his current teacher

The whole point of that scene is that Roshi moves much above what his PL should allow him to do, and Jiren is adapting his strength to the PL he feels from Roshi thus missing him and Goku being able to learn the technique.
It's not inconsistent because Jiren can't kill Roshi. Again, inconsistent is that suddenly the Genkidama can explode against good people because it was established in the series that this can't happen (and you like it, by the way).

Toei isn't good at writting no matter how much you try to spin it.

Regards!

jiren doesn't have to play with roshi ... he could just ignore it since he couldn't do anything to him
it can knock him unconscious ... he has no excuse and roshi even counterattacks lol the power difference is huge .but you like it don't you?
never said that they can't in the series
http://myanx.com/mangas-online/dragon-b ... nball3.jpg
you're right manga is much worse in writing roshi also beat khaseral who fights goku ssj lol

[JulieYBM]

One of my favorite pieces of "let your writers do what they want" is from Dragon Ball Super Episode #123. The scenario is written by Tomioka Atsuhiro, who appeared to be the uncredited head writer of the series. Hoping to knock Jiren off of the tournament ring Gokuu lays ki mines around Jiren that explode when he approaches them. This is one of my favorite Gokuu tactics and something I wish we'd see more of.

One day I'll have to gather a list of the various Tomioka Tactics. Tomioka used several different tactics during his time as a writer for Pokemon that were quite good. I'd love to see them make a return here one day.

[MechaTrunks]

for 4 reasons
-mainly because there has never been such a big wear of someone with such a silly excuse before in z in any case show me when something like this happened in the original manga. Vegeta must have lost the transformation,
-The power difference between SSB and SSJ should be huge. .for which wear should not be relevant but that gives me to understand that it is not much ..
-Vegeta has been training for 4 months and a while x in what was coming in the tournament so that she cannot dominate her yet, it is not something recent
-that vegeta is so stupid to know that and still waste his energy uselessly

- It not having happened before doesn't mean it can't happen now. It happened and it was explained since the beginning.
- The wear is what the manga tells us it is. You can't say it's bad writting just because you don't like it.
- The form is not mastered until much later and by Goku, that's always one step ahead of Vegeta when it comes to ki mastering (until now with the moro saga trainings which may put Vegeta above Goku in that sense).
- True, that was too forced. If Vegeta wanted to motivate Kabe with the SSJGod there was more than enough, so that was a cheap excuse as to leave Vegeta out and give Goku the final fight of the match.
It's still much better than the anime. Vegeta being stupid or very arrogant (or both) is still a much lesser problem than breaking the power-scale of the series.

ok at least you accepted an argument of mine

I don't have any problem in doing so if I think that you have proven your point or that it fits with the stated facts of the manga.

it would be an option but it would still be inconsistent ... because vegeta ssj is stronger than goku ssj 3 z and cannot even move 1000 tons it seems that they did not advance anything .. it was better not to say how much magetta weighed

SSJ2 Vegeta is above SSJ3 Goku, not SSJ Vegeta which hasn't proved to turn stronger compared to Z at all (and it was around the same level as Goku's SSJ there).

it was never said that the genkidama cannot harm good people only that they can be returned

If it can be returned by anyone with not an evil Ki without any effort, the whole scene of Goku using it against Jiren with FREEZA'S KI ON IT (that contradicts the very esence of the Genkidama) is simply impossible to justify.

and anyway kid buu can return the genkidama and he is evil

Ki Bu returned it because he was too strong, he overpowered the Genkidama.
It's very different than having a very weakened Gohan making a Genkidama rebound like its a volley-ball ball without any effort.

goku was without energy and at the limit something important to achieve the UI

That's just anime-nonsense.
How many times has Goku been at the limit in the series? The UI is something that doesn't rely on Goku's knowledge of its existence, so even if being cornered may help to trigger it, it surely can't be such a crucial requisite for it like the anime made it to be.
On the other hand, if there was an aspect every training insisted a lot in the beginning of the series that is basically the same as UI was to perfect one's movement.
This also gives a much better explanation as to why Goku could use it when even Bill wasn't able to do so, because he was trained in the UI principles since he was a kid and even if he didn't realise it he had gained the ability to untap into the UI form.
And the fact that he has to be remined of this by Mutenroshi, with a feat as absurdly difficult as the one he performed (relative to his strength) but also weak enough so Goku could perfectly follow his movements, makes it even better in terms of justifying why Goku didn't do this in the Bu saga (for example).

So we have a scene that destroys every single principle about the Genkidama that the series had established and also uses it to gives Goku the UI form with absolutely no explanation as to why besides "Goku was pushed to the limits" vs tying with the lore of Goku's training and an aspect Toriyama himself had fogotten about and using it as the basis for the strongest form seen to date.

The manga is simply the much better written story, regardless of the one you prefere.

jiren doesn't have to play with roshi ... he could just ignore it since he couldn't do anything to him

Or he could eliminate it because in the end, he had to be the last fighter in the ring. Why leave him there? Bad writting would be Jiren ignoring Roshi.

it can knock him unconscious ... he has no excuse and roshi even counterattacks lol the power difference is huge .but you like it don't you?

It doesn't matter how huge is the power difference, because Jiren CAN'T KILL Roshi. In fact, Jiren having to lower that much his PL as to not kill Roshi would justify his movements being even more sloppy than they should be.
So if Roshi is 1 and Jiren is 10 milions, but with a strength of 2 you can already kill Roshi, that means that Jiren has to fight with a strength of less than 2.
At the same time, Roshi has a level of movements that is much higher than what his PL would indicate, that's why he can do what he does.

never said that they can't in the series
http://myanx.com/mangas-online/dragon-b ... nball3.jpg

In this very page you post, it literally says:
"Anyone that doesn't have an evil Ki can return it (the Genkidama) without problems".

It's absolutely undeniable that the Genkidama behaving like a normal Ki blast is Toei being Toei and not caring about the writting.

you're right manga is much worse in writing roshi also beat khaseral who fights goku ssj lol

Again, it doesn't matter the strength he had. If Jiren is 10 millions then Kharesal was what, 10.000? Even then he had to limit his power to below 2 to not kill Roshi, and Roshi took him completely offguard with his ultra-skilled movements.
If that wasn't a tournament where killing was forbidden, you would be right.

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

- It not having happened before doesn't mean it can't happen now. It happened and it was explained since the beginning.
- The wear is what the manga tells us it is. You can't say it's bad writting just because you don't like it.
- The form is not mastered until much later and by Goku, that's always one step ahead of Vegeta when it comes to ki mastering (until now with the moro saga trainings which may put Vegeta above Goku in that sense).
- True, that was too forced. If Vegeta wanted to motivate Kabe with the SSJGod there was more than enough, so that was a cheap excuse as to leave Vegeta out and give Goku the final fight of the match.
-It's still much better than the anime. Vegeta being stupid or very arrogant (or both) is still a much lesser problem than breaking the power-scale of the series.

-That something is explained does not mean that it makes sense and it was only explained recently that vegeta began to fight so no. it didn't happen in the battle of the gods and it didn't happen in fnf movie, it's something out of the ass
-If an explanation is forced and not very logical since nothing is mentioned in the movies, then it is questionable.
-however it was vegeta who defeated golden frieza with a transformation that is not supposed to dominate
-vegeta in the anime lost because he doesn't know the ability to hit something perfectly reasonable

SSJ2 Vegeta is above SSJ3 Goku, not SSJ Vegeta which hasn't proved to turn stronger compared to Z at all (and it was around the same level as Goku's SSJ there).

multipliers are still valid
SSJ x50, SSJ2x2, SSJ3x4 only base power increase

If it can be returned by anyone with not an evil Ki without any effort, the whole scene of Goku using it against Jiren with FREEZA'S KI ON IT (that contradicts the very esence of the Genkidama) is simply impossible to justify.)
It's very different than having a very weakened Gohan making a Genkidama rebound like its a volley-ball ball without any effort.
.

that frieza provides a little energy is not inconsistent .... he is still an individual with energy
in the case of gohan the technique was half its power
if buu can return the genkidama to goku who is a good person, it is proof that the rule of good and bad is broken when it comes to power
goku used his last card against jiren with that hoping that with his power be his power be enough but it was not the case

all that was consistent

That's just anime-nonsense.
How many times has Goku been at the limit in the series? The UI is something that doesn't rely on Goku's knowledge of its existence, so even if being cornered may help to trigger it, it surely can't be such a crucial requisite for it like the anime made it to be.
On the other hand, if there was an aspect every training insisted a lot in the beginning of the series that is basically the same as UI was to perfect one's movement.
This also gives a much better explanation as to why Goku could use it when even Bill wasn't able to do so, because he was trained in the UI principles since he was a kid and even if he didn't realise it he had gained the ability to untap into the UI form.
And the fact that he has to be remined of this by Mutenroshi, with a feat as absurdly difficult as the one he performed (relative to his strength) but also weak enough so Goku could perfectly follow his movements, makes it even better in terms of justifying why Goku didn't do this in the Bu saga (for example).

So we have a scene that destroys every single principle about the Genkidama that the series had established and also uses it to gives Goku the UI form with absolutely no explanation as to why besides "Goku was pushed to the limits" vs tying with the lore of Goku's training and an aspect Toriyama himself had fogotten about and using it as the basis for the strongest form seen to date.

The manga is simply the much better written story, regardless of the one you prefere..

unlike manga ... whis who is an angel and his teacher explains the principles of the UI to goku and vegeta in addition to making it clear that goku was the most suitable to master it since vegeta thought too much about his attacks
Under this premise, goku has already been training and fighting enough to prepare himself physically and mentally for something like this, although he was not already, he know concept but in previous battles the opportunity did not present itself since other alternatives such as fusion were used.
with jiren it was the perfect opportunity since it fulfilled the conditions to use it due to the power it had required to break the "shell" as the angel says.
is more consistent because goku should not be able to use it at will requires conditions
1-no energy / almost dead
2- an opponent stronger than the previous one that forces him to break his limits
3.- clear his mind of distractions (something he already knew)

The roshi thing in the manga is shitty writing because being old does not mean that he can have more knowledge of something he has never seen ... he has only trained on earth to improve his senses
he never trained with kami, he never trained with king kai and much less with whis
That goku achieves the ui of his own accord when listening to a speech and that he can no longer access it does not make any sense ...

that whis explains it makes more sense ... that goku does not achieve the UI by will makes more sense as much as you do not like it

Or he could eliminate it because in the end, he had to be the last fighter in the ring. Why leave him there? Bad writting would be Jiren ignoring Rosh

It doesn't matter how huge is the power difference, because Jiren CAN'T KILL Roshi. In fact, Jiren having to lower that much his PL as to not kill Roshi would justify his movements being even more sloppy than they should be.
So if Roshi is 1 and Jiren is 10 milions, but with a strength of 2 you can already kill Roshi, that means that Jiren has to fight with a strength of less than 2.
At the same time, Roshi has a level of movements that is much higher than what his PL would indicate, that's why he can do what he does.
i.

if the difference was big it should not be dangerous

In this very page you post, it literally says:
"Anyone that doesn't have an evil Ki can return it (the Genkidama) without problems"
It's absolutely undeniable that the Genkidama behaving like a normal Ki blast is Toei being Toei and not caring about the writting.
.

kid buu breaks that rule ... again just by power ... so no it's not an inconsistency

Again, it doesn't matter the strength he had. If Jiren is 10 millions then Kharesal was what, 10.000? Even then he had to limit his power to below 2 to not kill Roshi, and Roshi took him completely offguard with his ultra-skilled movements.
If that wasn't a tournament where killing was forbidden, you would be right.

Regards!

super buu knocked tenshinhan and is unconscious ...
lol kahseral had it in front

[MechaTrunks]

-That something is explained does not mean that it makes sense and it was only explained recently that vegeta began to fight so no. it didn't happen in the battle of the gods and it didn't happen in fnf movie, it's something out of the ass

An explanation only is invalid when it 100% contradicts other previously stated facts.
In BoG there was no SSJBlue to begin with, and the manga clearly established from minute 0 that it would use a different power scale from the movies (starting with the SSJGod form not being absorbed into the base state).

-If an explanation is forced and not very logical since nothing is mentioned in the movies, then it is questionable.

Which is not the case for the SSJBlue form in the DBS manga.

-however it was vegeta who defeated golden frieza with a transformation that is not supposed to dominate

So what? Golden Freeza mastered his form even less and was already very weakened when he fought against Vegeta.

-vegeta in the anime lost because he doesn't know the ability to hit something perfectly reasonable

Yeah, nope. Hit completely overpowered Vegeta even when Vegeta had him grabbed by his hand. Even then, anime Hit was above the SSJBlue (10x stronger if it's true that he also increased his power by not screaming) so he could do that I suppose.

multipliers are still valid
SSJ x50, SSJ2x2, SSJ3x4 only base power increase

Those multipliers were invalid already for the original manga, they're even less valid in the DBSuper one.

that frieza provides a little energy is not inconsistent .... he is still an individual with energy

The whole idea behind the Genkidama is that it is PURE energy. Freeza has energy but his KI is EVIL, him contributing to the Genkidama is absurd.

in the case of gohan the technique was half its power

Still completely overpowered a much stronger Vegeta. And the reason Goku says Gohan will be able to make it rebound is him having good ki, not the ball being weakened.
So again, it contradicts the whole concept of the Genkidama.

if buu can return the genkidama to goku who is a good person, it is proof that the rule of good and bad is broken when it comes to power
goku used his last card against jiren with that hoping that with his power be his power be enough but it was not the case

Bu was SSJ3 in strenght and Goku in his base state and depleted. Once he recharged even the SSJ was enough to overpower Kid Bu without any effort.
I know you're very invested on defending the anime but the truth goes before any personal preference.

unlike manga ... whis who is an angel and his teacher explains the principles of the UI to goku and vegeta in addition to making it clear that goku was the most suitable to master it since vegeta thought too much about his attacks

The UI is this, INSTINCT, it doesn't matter that Whis explained it to Goku. If simply being at the limit was excuse enough, in the Black saga Goku should have untaped it already.
The excuse given in the anime is pure nonse.

Under this premise, goku has already been training and fighting enough to prepare himself physically and mentally for something like this, although he was not already, he know concept but in previous battles the opportunity did not present itself since other alternatives such as fusion were used.

Under this premise are you telling me that Black Saga Goku was less trained by Whis than ToP saga Goku? I don't think so, Goku didn't have any training with Whis between those sagas.
So it's all about the anime simply deciding that now Goku in danger would untap the ultra instinct because they wanted it now and not yesterday.
Bad writting.

The roshi thing in the manga is shitty writing because being old does not mean that he can have more knowledge of something he has never seen ... he has only trained on earth to improve his senses

On the contrary, what's implied in that chapter is that the martial arts from the earth (that where always what gave Goku a notch over Vegeta) already were heading to the UI state.
In other words, the UI that Whis teaches Goku is just an evolution of what he was told since being a kid, that's why when Goku realises that his is the path to follos, he already has it pretty much mastered because he had been training in it since he was a kid.

he never trained with kami, he never trained with king kai and much less with whis

Kami & Karin shared the same principles, and he trained with Karin and based his martial arts in him.
Him having his movements perfected to such a degree is surprising, but its INFINITELY BETTER than seeing Roshi fighting SSJ warios and OVERPOWERING THEM (something that never happens in the manga).
Roshi is a 800 year old martial artist with a style that followed the same basic principles of the UI.

That goku achieves the ui of his own accord when listening to a speech and that he can no longer access it does not make any sense ...

Since it is INSTINCT, it can't be controlled at will. After realising the correct path and having just seen Roshi's movements he could tap into it, but it's obvious that to turn that moment of inspiration into real progress he still had to train.
I don't see what's strange in here.

if the difference was big it should not be dangerous

It never was dangerous for Jiren because he never underestimated Roshi. That being said, in DB all that matters is your power level. Krillin was nothing compared to Vegeta but when Vegeta lowered his Ki Krilin almos killed him with a Ki blast.

kid buu breaks that rule ... again just by power ... so no it's not an inconsistency

Kid Bu breaks nothing because he returned it WITH PROBLEMS.
The quote you put says "without problems" in other words "without effort". Look, why are you trying to argue against the manga? Why is it so vital for you to defend that Genkidama bullshit-scene from the anime? XD

super buu knocked tenshinhan and is unconscious ...
lol kahseral had it in front

Yeah, so what? Super Bu could've killed Ten if he had any intention of doing so (another proof that he controlled the strength of his attacks).

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

-That something is explained does not mean that it makes sense and it was only explained recently that vegeta began to fight so no. it didn't happen in the battle of the gods and it didn't happen in fnf movie, it's something out of the ass

An explanation only is invalid when it 100% contradicts other previously stated facts.
In BoG there was no SSJBlue to begin with, and the manga clearly established from minute 0 that it would use a different power scale from the movies (starting with the SSJGod form not being absorbed into the base state).[/quote]

for the manga the films are still canon at least FNF and Broly movie are

Which is not the case for the SSJBlue form in the DBS manga..

So what? Golden Freeza mastered his form even less and was already very weakened when he fought against Vegeta..

If someone increased their powers above the SSJGod and then only by transforming themselves once ... but have an absurd wear like the one that was shown ... when in the movies a wear like this was never shown is not forced and illogical?
frieza has much less wear in those battles ... otherwise ssj or ssj god would have been enough

Yeah, nope. Hit completely overpowered Vegeta even when Vegeta had him grabbed by his hand. Even then, anime Hit was above the SSJBlue (10x stronger if it's true that he also increased his power by not screaming) so he could do that I suppose..

I mean the fact that
goku manages to have an advantage ... for knowing his abilities and before hit learned to improve, they was equals the same would have happened with vegeta although of course if hit was improved after vegeta would have lost too

Those multipliers were invalid already for the original manga, they're even less valid in the DBSuper one..

why?

The whole idea behind the Genkidama is that it is PURE energy. Freeza has energy but his KI is EVIL, him contributing to the Genkidama is absurd...

Genkidama is a technique that can draw energy from any individual or even planets or stars. In no mentioned that people have to be good
how to determine that a planet or stars is good?.

Bu was SSJ3 in strenght and Goku in his base state and depleted. Once he recharged even the SSJ was enough to overpower Kid Bu without any effort.
I know you're very invested on defending the anime but the truth goes before any personal preference.

That does not change that it can be returned only because of the difference in power ... it no longer contradicts the concept of what the author did ... in his own original manga
no, it just seems hypocritical to me they just remember what they want ...

The UI is this, INSTINCT, it doesn't matter that Whis explained it to Goku. If simply being at the limit was excuse enough, in the Black saga Goku should have untaped it already.
The excuse given in the anime is pure nonse.

false, goku needs 3 requirements that were not met in that case ...

Under this premise are you telling me that Black Saga Goku was less trained by Whis than ToP saga Goku? I don't think so, Goku didn't have any training with Whis between those sagas.
So it's all about the anime simply deciding that now Goku in danger would untap the ultra instinct because they wanted it now and not yesterday.
Bad writting..

lol that's fallacy because not what I'm saying
goku learned the concept of whis and had time to train he wasn't going to get it fast but he did it in the tournament that is much better than learning about an old man in the top
the opposite of bad writing

On the contrary, what's implied in that chapter is that the martial arts from the earth (that where always what gave Goku a notch over Vegeta) already were heading to the UI state.
In other words, the UI that Whis teaches Goku is just an evolution of what he was told since being a kid, that's why when Goku realises that his is the path to follos, he already has it pretty much mastered because he had been training in it since he was a kid..

which is stupid because in any case it would not be a technique of the gods that is impossible to do ...
so let roshi teach kaioken too

Kami & Karin shared the same principles, and he trained with Karin and based his martial arts in him.
Him having his movements perfected to such a degree is surprising, but its INFINITELY BETTER than seeing Roshi fighting SSJ warios and OVERPOWERING THEM (something that never happens in the manga).
Roshi is a 800 year old martial artist with a style that followed the same basic principles of the UI...

-speculation
-being old is not an argument .... goku has traveled the universe and has trained by teachers with more experience than roshi
whis has real experience and is dominated by the UI
-roshi vs kaseral
whis >>>> roshi in years of experience, skill or consistency etc

Since it is INSTINCT, it can't be controlled at will. After realising the correct path and having just seen Roshi's movements he could tap into it, but it's obvious that to turn that moment of inspiration into real progress he still had to train.
I don't see what's strange in here...

lol if he make it he own will there's no point losing it ...in addition to instinctively ceasing to be

It never was dangerous for Jiren because he never underestimated Roshi. That being said, in DB all that matters is your power level. Krillin was nothing compared to Vegeta but when Vegeta lowered his Ki Krilin almos killed him with a Ki blast..

you are aware that jiren doesn't have because decrease its power so much right?

Kid Bu breaks nothing because he returned it WITH PROBLEMS.
The quote you put says "without problems" in other words "without effort". Look, why are you trying to argue against the manga? Why is it so vital for you to defend that Genkidama bullshit-scene from the anime? XD.

He returned it and it is the clearest proof that the difference in power breaks the rule ... if goku used the genkidama it was because he obviously intended to attack jiren with so much power that he not can return him, so no, it is not inconsistent
you ran out of argument and now you will continue with stupid jokes lol

Yeah, so what? Super Bu could've killed Ten if he had any intention of doing so (another proof that he controlled the strength of his attacks).
Regards!

jiren could do it too and easy, thanks for admitting manga is crap of writing

[MechaTrunks]

for the manga the films are still canon at least FNF and Broly movie are

FNF is only canon in the parts that doesn't contradict the manga, so the "beyond God" state from the movies doesn't exist in the FNF (skipped) adapted saga (we have to assume the first round between Goku and Freeza went with Goku using his God form in the manga).
The manga that follows the canon of the movies is the promotional one Toyotarou made before the movie was released.

Regarding the SSJB consuming one's energy, it's as easy to justify as the Freeza's Golden Form just consuming MUCH more energy than the SSJB does.
So again, the manga contradicts nothing and it's coherent within it's own universe.

If someone increased their powers above the SSJGod and then only by transforming themselves once ... but have an absurd wear like the one that was shown ... when in the movies a wear like this was never shown is not forced and illogical?

1. The main wear of the SSJBlue is when igniting the transformation multiple times. In the movies that never happened because the regular god form was already in the Base state and Goku had eaten a senzu bean (or been healed by Whis, I don't remember the details) when he turned into a SSJBlue for the 2nd time to kill Freeza.

2. The other wear, the one that happens just by using the SSJBlue, is a much more moderate one. While at 60-70% of strength, they can fight for a few minutes at max and their power falls progressively (though even much faster than in any other of the SSJ Forms).
Freeza's power in his Golden Form was stated to fall of "immensly quickly" even when not fighting.
So even if that wear wasn't introduced in the movies it doesn't contradict them either, because the wear the movies stated for GF was much, much bigger than the wear the SSJB had if not distransforming and then transforming again.

I mean the fact that
goku manages to have an advantage ... for knowing his abilities and before hit learned to improve, they was equals the same would have happened with vegeta although of course if hit was improved after vegeta would have lost too

So Hit had a 10x Power improvement just by fighting? Seems very asspulled to tell you the truth.

Those multipliers were invalid already for the original manga, they're even less valid in the DBSuper one..

why?

Because they contradict the statements, feats and the whole logic of the SSJ forms.
I mean, if the SSJ form was already a 50x multiplier for Goku in Namek, how much of a mulitplier had it become after the RoSAT training?
FP SSJ is the exact same form as regular SSJ, just fully mastered.
Furthermore, 50x SSJ Namek Goku also contradicts his whole fight with Freeza (tied with a considerably injured Freeza, and Freeza was more or less 40-45x Goku in terms of power when not injured)

Genkidama is a technique that can draw energy from any individual or even planets or stars. In no mentioned that people have to be good
how to determine that a planet or stars is good?

It's neutral, but not evil. The Genkidama doesn't work against good people and is super-effective against evil ones. That's why it was the only technique able to completely obliterate Kid Bu (who was pure evil) while even kid Gohan was able to return it.

It suddenly being composed of EVIL ki.... it completely contradicts every single depiction of the technique in the series.

That does not change that it can be returned only because of the difference in power ... it no longer contradicts the concept of what the author did ... in his own original manga
no, it just seems hypocritical to me they just remember what they want ...

Who said it couldn't be returned by overpowering it? What I've said is that it shouldn't have been used against Jiren to begin with because it whould have been a completely inoffensive technique to him.
But what we see is Jiren overpowering the Genkidama like Bu, as if the Genkidama was a random, strong ki blast.
That's what I'm criticising. Not the fact that Jiren could return the Gendiama (of course he could, he in fact should have done it with the tip of his fingter) but how he did it and the sole fact of Goku using it as a last resort attack against Jiren which is STUPID.

And then of course the Genkidama exploding on Goku like he is evil and unlocking the UI combo because that alone wasn't ilogical enough.

lol that's fallacy because not what I'm saying
goku learned the concept of whis and had time to train he wasn't going to get it fast but he did it in the tournament that is much better than learning about an old man in the top
the opposite of bad writing

So Goku didn't take any extra lesson from Whis, and the Genkidama gave him the inspiration he needed?
And that's better writting than grabbing Goku's masters quotes that more closely resembled what Whis said about the UI, giving them a new meaning, and using them as a justification of why Goku can do what Vegeta can't?
Because seriously, Vegeta had the same trainings with Whis, he could ask Goku for a Genkidama attack as well!

which is stupid because in any case it would not be a technique of the gods that is impossible to do ...
so let roshi teach kaioken too

The Kaiohken wasn't a "technique of the gods" (so according to your logic, Goku shouldn't have learend the KaiohKen?) but a technique invented from a God.
The UI was a technique from the Gods but that had the same principles as the martial arts of the earth.
So you think that Goku learning by pure random inspiration a techniques of the Gods is better writting than the martial arts of the earth being very good?
Ok, I can respect it, but lest's agree to disagree.

-speculation
-being old is not an argument .... goku has traveled the universe and has trained by teachers with more experience than roshi
whis has real experience and is dominated by the UI
-roshi vs kaseral
whis >>>> roshi in years of experience, skill or consistency etc

Your whole posts are speculation (and without any references to the original manga to make them worse). That's not a good argument to be used here.
And yes, whis >>> roshi, but the thing is that Goku always "knew" that Whis was above him while he thought that Roshi culdn't teach him anythying else.
So seeing Roshi's movements at Roshi's speed he reacted in a different way than seeing them from Whis. It's an inspiration, not a masterclass.

you are aware that jiren doesn't have because decrease its power so much right?

He has to decrease it even to fight the SSJBlue, and you're telling me the didn't have to decrease it a lot to fight Roshi? Of course he had to!

jiren could do it too and easy, thanks for admitting manga is crap of writing

Unless you're arguing that Ten Shin had nearly UI moves in DBZ, your comparison makes no sense.

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

FNF is only canon in the parts that doesn't contradict the manga, so the "beyond God" state from the movies doesn't exist in the FNF (skipped) adapted saga (we have to assume the first round between Goku and Freeza went with Goku using his God form in the manga).
The manga that follows the canon of the movies is the promotional one Toyotarou made before the movie was released.

Regarding the SSJB consuming one's energy, it's as easy to justify as the Freeza's Golden Form just consuming MUCH more energy than the SSJB does.
So again, the manga contradicts nothing and it's coherent within it's own universe.

is that it is not about assuming ... that would be an incomplete and dependent material as such already in case that is contradictory ... the original manga no have tha problem with the story of trunks because it had its own version ..
there is not an order and events are omitted you can only take the movies made in contribution by the author
assume is the same as speculate

1. The main wear of the SSJBlue is when igniting the transformation multiple times. In the movies that never happened because the regular god form was already in the Base state and Goku had eaten a senzu bean (or been healed by Whis, I don't remember the details) when he turned into a SSJBlue for the 2nd time to kill Freeza.

2. The other wear, the one that happens just by using the SSJBlue, is a much more moderate one. While at 60-70% of strength, they can fight for a few minutes at max and their power falls progressively (though even much faster than in any other of the SSJ Forms).
Freeza's power in his Golden Form was stated to fall of "immensly quickly" even when not fighting.
So even if that wear wasn't introduced in the movies it doesn't contradict them either, because the wear the movies stated for GF was much, much bigger than the wear the SSJB had if not distransforming and then transforming again.
.

surely but equally forced for a transformation with great divine power

So Hit had a 10x Power improvement just by fighting? Seems very asspulled to tell you the truth..

not necessarily
but as you already said yourself the wear suffered by goku .. is considerable to be kkx10. goku was not have 100% of power
also I have already proven that in the original manga exist battles with opponents of 10 times the difference as frieza vs goku

Because they contradict the statements, feats and the whole logic of the SSJ forms.
I mean, if the SSJ form was already a 50x multiplier for Goku in Namek, how much of a mulitplier had it become after the RoSAT training?
FP SSJ is the exact same form as regular SSJ, just fully mastered.
Furthermore, 50x SSJ Namek Goku also contradicts his whole fight with Freeza (tied with a considerably injured Freeza, and Freeza was more or less 40-45x Goku in terms of power when not injured)

maybe but it should be clarified that in manga, anime and movies beerus mentions that goku base can not beat frieza

It's neutral, but not evil. The Genkidama doesn't work against good people and is super-effective against evil ones. That's why it was the only technique able to completely obliterate Kid Bu (who was pure evil) while even kid Gohan was able to return it.

It suddenly being composed of EVIL ki.... it completely contradicts every single depiction of the technique in the series.

did not kill vegeta or frieza for being too strong and they are evil)[/quote]

first of all the author has been changing the concept of genkidama as the series progresses and that is undeniable
Goku originally could use it without the need for cooperation, he only extracted the energy of all living beings on earth, then in Namek Goku he could extract energy from other planets and stars, regardless of whether there were no living beings in the Buu saga. Goku needed all of them. they will raise their hands ... to do it even though gohan's energy should be enough otherwise you cannot get the power.[/quote]

even with all those changes ...
-It has never been said that the genkidama cannot harm "not evil" people
-It has never been said that the genkidama cannot extract energy from evil people, especially if they provide it voluntarily.

Facts
-it has only been said that genkidama cannot be "used" by people with negative thoughts
-Not all people on earth are pure in heart but their energy is useful for the genkidama

now since this is clarified what you have said is your speculation there is nothing in the manga that says that this cannot be ..., now please you demonstrate me what you are saying with evidence come on I wait for you

Who said it couldn't be returned by overpowering it? What I've said is that it shouldn't have been used against Jiren to begin with because it whould have been a completely inoffensive technique to him.
But what we see is Jiren overpowering the Genkidama like Bu, as if the Genkidama was a random, strong ki blast.
That's what I'm criticising. Not the fact that Jiren could return the Gendiama (of course he could, he in fact should have done it with the tip of his fingter) but how he did it and the sole fact of Goku using it as a last resort attack against Jiren which is STUPID.

And then of course the Genkidama exploding on Goku like he is evil and unlocking the UI combo because that alone wasn't ilogical enough.r.

Using one of his best techniques should not be bad ... especially if he was already surpassed by his opponent first he had to give everything in addition to that Goku does not know Jiren to assume that the technique did not work.

again things like evil ki is no longer relevant since the characters have learned to hide their intentions, frost is an example and also it has not been proven that genkidama cannot harm non-wicked people ...

So Goku didn't take any extra lesson from Whis, and the Genkidama gave him the inspiration he needed?
And that's better writting than grabbing Goku's masters quotes that more closely resembled what Whis said about the UI, giving them a new meaning, and using them as a justification of why Goku can do what Vegeta can't?
Because seriously, Vegeta had the same trainings with Whis, he could ask Goku for a Genkidama attack as well!.

Much better ... the genkidama received as a necessary "trigger" to break its limits and be able to use the UI once it had learned the concept of whis.
In the manga current, Merus says that Goku needs a trigger too ...
I just said it's more consistent for the angel to teach you that who has that knowledge while roshi has only trained with korin to the maximum to improve his senses
that a human has that knowledge makes it become less special for something that only the gods should will know but even roshi seems to dominate more

The Kaiohken wasn't a "technique of the gods" (so according to your logic, Goku shouldn't have learend the KaiohKen?) but a technique invented from a God.
The UI was a technique from the Gods but that had the same principles as the martial arts of the earth.
So you think that Goku learning by pure random inspiration a techniques of the Gods is better writting than the martial arts of the earth being very good?
Ok, I can respect it, but lest's agree to disagree.!.

What difference does it really make? anyway goku at least had time training to master that
If a concept were so easy for humans to understand, the gods should also know that and it would not be something so mysterious.
the reason because vegeta does not understand it is because he has less martial ability than goku something understood since goku's movements were already more instinctive

Your whole posts are speculation (and without any references to the original manga to make them worse). That's not a good argument to be used here.
And yes, whis >>> roshi, but the thing is that Goku always "knew" that Whis was above him while he thought that Roshi culdn't teach him anythying else.
So seeing Roshi's movements at Roshi's speed he reacted in a different way than seeing them from Whis. It's an inspiration, not a masterclass.!.

the fact that beerus seems nervous about roshi.
That goku has forgotten or does not understand something so simple when he lived in his own flesh with those trainings and has had more teachers than roshi.
it is more coherent that roshi teaches techniques like mafuba that is fine but the UI was something he should only learn from whis ... it makes him look useless

He has to decrease it even to fight the SSJBlue, and you're telling me the didn't have to decrease it a lot to fight Roshi? Of course he had to!.

Unless you're arguing that Ten Shin had nearly UI moves in DBZ, your comparison makes no sense.

is that if jiren had such control he should be able to knock him the unconscious out of a blow so I take the example with super buu
I think that does not matter, if the opponent surpass you by much .. Roshi's speed has not increased, only his perception.