Dragon Ball Lore

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Bebi Hatchiyack
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri May 08, 2020 4:49 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:30 am
What lore do you all like?
I love lore on Familly Tree like in Games of Thrones, I love technological advancement for example Gundam is a great anime explaining how all the tech are just derivative from one design. I love science stuff I would love to have a biological explanation as to how Super Saiyan transformation works or how Saiyan transform into a Oozaru.

MasakoX did few videos about that whish are good.

To summarize.

I love how the world works behind the scene of the story because it helps me to project myself in this world and to imagine myself be a random dude exploring that world without medling the story of the protagonist. Lore for me helps me to take one world and make it mine.

For example a movie like Waterworld has not enough of lore to help me to explore this world to know how it works what is the backstory detail how the Mariner got his change are there more of him ? Does a new human species evolved in this water world ? Whereas a world like Star Wars oh perfect I can take this world and tear it apart and play with it and let myself dive into the rabbit hole of imagination and make the world of Star Wars spiritually mine.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Fri May 08, 2020 6:00 pm

Waterworld's problems weren't due to lack of lore. It's just a god awful movie and a bad Mad Max rip off. Also, the entire point of the Mariner is that he's alone and wants to be alone and survive (just like Max), but he's a reluctant hero (just like Max). If there are more of him, why wouldn't he just stay with his kind? You're missing the point.

I just an't see it. I find the insistance on world buildings to make a world feel real to be silly. Stories are empathy machines. We see a world through a character's eyes and are put in their shoes. Their purpose is to make us feel something.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 08, 2020 7:20 pm

World building works best when the world being depicted is something that’s far removed from the real world. That’s why people respond well to the world building for something like Middle Earth or the Star Wars universe (at least in the case of the original trilogy and the expanded universe, though people have also interestingly warmed up to the prequels in recent years).

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by MyVisionity » Fri May 08, 2020 7:58 pm

When I was a kid I used to spend a lot of time in the library and bookstores reading guidebooks and encyclopedias for various series. I enjoyed learning things like how the Emperor was also called "Darth Sidious" and stuff about the "Clone Wars". It was interesting that there was so much hidden backstory for the Star Wars universe along with the possibility for future films. I also liked reading the various Buffy guides detailing the mythology. That kind of stuff was a highlight of those shows for me.

I suppose reading info from the Daizenshuu is just as interesting for DB, especially back when I was still in the middle of the show. With Dragon Ball you also have the real world influences that are interesting to learn about as well, which I find more interesting nowadays.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Fri May 08, 2020 10:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:00 pm
I just an't see it. I find the insistance on world buildings to make a world feel real to be silly. Stories are empathy machines. We see a world through a character's eyes and are put in their shoes. Their purpose is to make us feel something.
Except sometimes I don't want to feel something, there are works of fiction I love because of their lore and not because of their story because I can dive into those universe and disconnect myself to the real life. What are the S Cells how they interact with the Saiyan body does they play a role in colouring the hair when the Saiyan transform ? The Dragon Ball human earth does they are a species evolved from monkeys like in our world ? The Frieza race what is its name ? What caused the cataclysme of the Namek world ?

Those are answers I need to know to quench my thirst of background knowledge. I NEED MOAR DRAGON BALL LORE PLZ ♥♪

And I want to know all of that like I want to know IN REAL LIFE all the missing piece in history, does the Richat Structure is really the famous city of Atlantis ? What is the missing pieces that links mankind evolution to the overall Primate order ? And many more question.

I think it's I think it comes from the fact that I want to know the why more than the how. I am one of those people who as soon as they read a work of fiction, they want to know all the little details and want to know how the said universe of fiction portrayed compares to our reality.

I think that people who are fully in science or who have a scientific spirit will love having a lot of details on the fiction universe that they read. whereas people who are more literary or have a literary spirit will be more focus about the story, the characters.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat May 09, 2020 2:44 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 8:53 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:31 pm
ekrolo2 wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 9:49 am

And yet Dragon Ball breaks this rule constantly and still successfully does its characters without it.
The vast majority of DB characters have have known backstories and origins. So your argument is false.
Yes, most of which don't even exist until well after a character is already firmly established and 100% defined without one. Roshi is a fully formed character thanks to his personality and how he plays off others before Piccolo was even the beginnings of a concept. The same thing is with Goku being a Saiyan, Vegeta being the Prince, Daimao's connection to God...

Goku is a particularly good example to cite because all of Goku's "Saiyan traits" exist well before the idea of him being an alien is even a thing. Wanting to get stronger, seeking new challenges, pulling risky shit off to make things more interesting are all Goku's traits before the seventh arc starts the trend of it being a species-wide set of characteristics.
This is a weak rebuttal lol, because as a writer you're supposed to give strong characterization to a character before you give them anything like a backstory. No one introduces a character with a backstory at the start unless said story was the center of the plot.

"And yet Dragon Ball breaks this rule constantly and still successfully does its characters without it."

Really? Most characters in the DB franchise are either wasted, medicorely written (or worse) or simply poorly developed, objectively.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 09, 2020 3:02 am

ABED wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:30 am
What lore do you all like?
Bloodborne lore is some of my favorite lore of all time.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Sat May 09, 2020 3:32 am

I find lore and worldbuilding mostly boring, but the lore that is interesting to me isn't the made up BS about stuff like S-cells, but stuff like in Game of Thrones is fascinating when it offers some insight into people. Lots of Martin's lore is centered around the institutions and customs of his fictional world but those customs are very rooted in real world human behaviors. For instance, in that world, people often marry for the purpose of strategic alliances. We see that play out and lead to one of the most memorable scenes ever. It's based in truth and has something to say. S-Cells and the like have nothing to offer, whereas the Saiyan caste system does have something to say.
Except sometimes I don't want to feel something
Why would you not?
I enjoyed learning things like how the Emperor was also called "Darth Sidious" and stuff about the "Clone Wars". It was interesting that there was so much hidden backstory for the Star Wars universe along with the possibility for future films.
It's interesting that you bring up The Clone Wars. I remember hearing Luke and Obi Wan mention it for the first time and being fascinated by it. I wanted to know more. Then I got this kids book about Star Wars that mentioned how Anakin was burned during a fight with Obi Wan around an active volcano and wanting to see, then I saw it and mostly wished I hadn't. Now I look back and prefer the talk about the Clone Wars being referred to as casually as we might mention the Vietnam War. It gave a sense of history and touch of realism. That casual mention felt more real than if they had stopped for a three page monologue about the history of the Clone Wars.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sat May 09, 2020 11:46 am

Most of the DB-Lore we do have, we got once the series was over and a good chunk of it is silly stuff that doesn't amount to anything in the grand scheme of things.

Mr.Satan's actual name is Mark. Okay?

Kaio and Kaioshin are literally grown on trees and start off as apples. Um Okay?

The Namekian Legend Book also doesnt hold any weight either because it kinda ruins the notion that a lot of the big things that happen in the series has been by accident and tries to play on the "Chosen One" gimmick.

The Namekian catastrophe was introduced in the story but how it happened and what it was doesnt really matter as it doesnt expand upon anything of value or make the story any more interesting .

If any of that stuff was worth a damn i'm sure we would've seen more of it by now. Instead of getting an actual Makaioshin we get a half-assed heel turn by a good Kaioshin. Missed opportunity in my opinion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 09, 2020 5:31 pm

I do like the backstory about Tao killing Mr. Satan's master in a bar fight. I actually find that interesting. It would be a scene I would actually like to see in a flashback in the series. lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Sat May 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:31 pm
I do like the backstory about Tao killing Mr. Satan's master in a bar fight. I actually find that interesting. It would be a scene I would actually like to see in a flashback in the series. lol
Wait, what?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 09, 2020 6:31 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:56 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:31 pm
I do like the backstory about Tao killing Mr. Satan's master in a bar fight. I actually find that interesting. It would be a scene I would actually like to see in a flashback in the series. lol
Wait, what?
lol It's one of those things Toriyama confirmed in an interview. Supposedly, Mr. Satan and his master were drunk in a bar, and encountered Mercenary Tao. They proceeded to make fun of his hair, so Tao killed his master and greatly injured Mr. Satan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 10, 2020 6:36 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 pm
The story is boring because there's not enough information?
Yeah, it can be. Future Trunks saga would benefit more given enough information that should be there in the first place.
ABED wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 pm
What do you suggest? More guidebooks or in-story exposition?
If the series itself didn't cover it, yes.
ABED wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 pm
How does lore make the stories non-linear?
It doesn't. But they provide other kind content to explore later on.
ABED wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 pm
Why was Dabura more interesting because of lore?
Because he was no longer this random goon following some creepy wizard. Right from the beginning he is set apart from Pui Pui and Yakon due to the "King of Demon Realm" lore. And now we found out he has a sister none other than Towa herself, which gives another layer to the character to develop (relationship) and other context possibilities to be done with the character.
ABED wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 7:25 pm
It's just information and if you don't give a shit about the characters, more information won't change it.
Tell that to Dabura. I came to give a shit about him due to later information.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 7:32 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:36 pm
Tell that to Dabura. I came to give a shit about him due to later information.
Information that lead to nothing and gave us no insight. He is a meaningless lacky. His backstory doesn't recontextualize anything
Grimlock wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:36 pm
Yeah, it can be. Future Trunks saga would benefit more given enough information that should be there in the first place.
Such as? If there's anything that arc is missing it's not information.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 10, 2020 7:49 pm

Dabura isn’t a very interesting character, but I would argue that his status as the Demon King did help put into perspective just how dangerous Majin Boo was, as well as the scope of Babidi’s magic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Grimlock » Sun May 10, 2020 8:02 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:32 pm
Information that lead to nothing and gave us no insight. He is a meaningless lacky. His backstory doesn't recontextualize anything
It did lead to a more interesting use of Dabura in a more interesting context from Heroes and Xenoverse 2. Mainly the latter. Thus further contributing to the fact that he's no longer a meaningless lacky.
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:32 pm
Such as?
The Makaio and Kaioshin of Time stuff, off the top of my head.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm

Isn't Heroes a promotional anime and xenoverse a video game? I don't see how those are relevant to the character as presented in the story proper?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Toxin45 » Mon May 11, 2020 10:26 am

Well lore doesn’t always complicated things

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 11, 2020 12:44 pm

But that's the trap, and the problem with fandom's obsession with lore: the idea that "more equals better." But knowing more about a character doesn't make them interesting. What makes a character engaging is how their actions effect the characters, as well as what their actions say about them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 11, 2020 12:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm
Isn't Heroes a promotional anime and xenoverse a video game? I don't see how those are relevant to the character as presented in the story proper?
Yes. They are relevant, as I've just told they were the ones that made Dabura more interesting.

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