Dragon Ball Lore

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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ABED
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 1:11 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:58 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm Isn't Heroes a promotional anime and xenoverse a video game? I don't see how those are relevant to the character as presented in the story proper?
Yes. They are relevant, as I've just told they were the ones that made Dabura more interesting.
But they aren't in story or in text so not really relevant any more than Dr. Gero making 16 in the image of his son.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by Grimlock » Mon May 11, 2020 1:21 pm

Oh, it's that "it's not in the manga then whatever/it doesn't count" crap. I've moved way beyond that, sorry. You can continue to ignore everything and stick to just what was seen in the series, of course.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 1:25 pm

Well yeah. It's not in the story and has not effect on him. How does finding out more about his backstory recontextualize his actions?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon May 11, 2020 1:43 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:11 pm
Grimlock wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 12:58 pm
ABED wrote: Sun May 10, 2020 8:29 pm Isn't Heroes a promotional anime and xenoverse a video game? I don't see how those are relevant to the character as presented in the story proper?
Yes. They are relevant, as I've just told they were the ones that made Dabura more interesting.
But they aren't in story or in text so not really relevant any more than Dr. Gero making 16 in the image of his son.
I think that's the one Toriyama tidbit that does recontextualise Gero's actions and disproportionately vengeful personality in an interesting way. Maybe because it was such a prevalent fan theory for years that it's just ingrained in me, but it's one piece of information that becomes impossible to ignore once you know it, in a good way I think because the story does give subtle hints towards that interpretation even if Toriyama never planned it at the time (i.e. why he didn't want to send 16 into battle beyond him being 'incomplete').

And to be fair, the games do expand on characters like Dabura with new story content, but at that point it's not really lore - it's just stories. Even though his purpose was always to look intimidating next to Babidi, contextualise Gohan's current power level and finally get wrecked by Buu, he was always a character that people wanted to see more of so I don't see the harm in expanding him, even if the games aren't quite my cup of tea. The guidebook details surrounding the Demon race and the Makaioshin are also fairly interesting, mainly because they're vague enough to tease your imagination. Dragon Ball doesn't need loads of stuff like this and sometimes I think it goes too far, but these two examples I don't mind.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 2:11 pm

It's such a cliche. Dr. Gero's life's work being ruined was plenty good for motivation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 11, 2020 3:42 pm

I’m pretty sure Toriyama never claimed that Goku killed Dr. Gero’s son. That was just something that TeamFourStar did in their series. The official explanation is that his son was killed by a bullet from an enemy group. Retconning the reason for why Dr. Gero hates Goku would’ve been almost as ridiculous as the stuff we saw in Minus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon May 11, 2020 3:54 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 3:42 pm I’m pretty sure Toriyama never claimed that Goku killed Dr. Gero’s son. That was just something that TeamFourStar did in their series. The official explanation is that his son was killed by a bullet from an enemy group. Retconning the reason for why Dr. Gero hates Goku would’ve been almost as ridiculous as the stuff we saw in Minus.
Oh yeah yeah, totally, I'm glad Toriyama never confirmed it was Goku who killed 16. That would probably be too dark a consequence for this series and it wouldn't make sense for him to not bring something that major up. But either way, him having a dead son who fell in vain fighting for a shitty fascist army, I just think it helps contribute to Gero's extreme bitterness and actually improves his character a surprising amount in my eyes.

But yeah, even without that information, Gero is still a top tier villain and super underrated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 4:07 pm

I don't see the value it brings. It feels like a cliched motivation for a villain.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon May 11, 2020 4:25 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 4:07 pm I don't see the value it brings. It feels like a cliched motivation for a villain.
It isn't really his motivation, nothing truly earthshattering changes about Gero's grudge against Goku, but it gives him an extra layer of depth to his personality. I like that it's still quite twisted though, as presumably Gebo (Gero's son) wasn't a good person if he was working for the RR Army, it's like a Nazi scientist mourning his SS son, but it contributes to Gero's fanaticism for the army like it was the only thing he had left.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 5:07 pm

I don't see the depth. It feels like someone taking a shortcut to depth.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 11, 2020 7:54 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 5:07 pm I don't see the depth. It feels like someone taking a shortcut to depth.
It basically is taking a shortcut. The whole “revelation” about Dr. Gero having a dead son never even came up until 2014, which was two decades after the manga had already ended. I suppose it does put Dr. Gero’s dismay at #16’s reactivation in a different light, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that Toriyama didn’t have anything like that in mind at the time. Dr. Gero was never presented as anything other than a mustache twirling mad scientist in the manga or the anime, so I guess Toriyama felt inclined to try and retroactively give him some depth.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 9:10 pm

Emotional pain isn't the same as depth.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Dragon Ball Lore

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 11, 2020 9:47 pm

ABED wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:10 pm Emotional pain isn't the same as depth.
I didn’t say that. That’s just what I assume Toriyama’s thought process was.

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