What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun May 10, 2020 3:51 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 2:32 pm
The show should be called "How I Met Your Mother, but I Really Want Your Aunt Robin and Your Permission to Sleep With Her." Screw whether it makes any sense or is narratively satisfying, we want to go through with our intended ending come hell or high water. It's similar to how the Netflix season of Gilmore Girls ended the way the creator had intended even though it no longer made any sense and wasn't satisfying in the least. This is why people harping on planning or lackthereof being the culprit of bad endings or just bad writing in general doesn't misses the point.
Yeah, unironically, that is kind of what the show was really about in my opinion. Ted could have started the story back in college or whenever, or as the kids point out he could have featured Tracy far more, but he had to start it from when he first met Robin; if it was about the wedding, he could have started with when he met Barney or anyone else. Why? Because he values her the most and has huge nostalgia from his time with her. I think it makes perfect sense. It being a preplanned ending doesn't affect my enjoyment of it particularly. Also, sitcom characters relearning lessons is nothing new - he's just reapplying that lesson. I do agree that there's some dodgy implications in regard to how the women are treated as broodmares but that is unfortunately prevalent throughout the whole show.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun May 10, 2020 3:54 pm

The ending of GoT was 100% shock value and nothing else, and this is obvious in how the Night King and Dany storylines ended. It's not a surprise that the vast majority of people didn't find the final season satisfying at all.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 4:01 pm

Also, sitcom characters relearning lessons is nothing new - he's just reapplying that lesson.
It's not him learning or reapplying the lesson. It's him being stuck on someone and refusing to grow. For whatever issues I have with Barney and Robin's break up, Barney becoming a father does allow him to grow as a person. Look at the ending of Cheers. Sam kept coming back to Cheers after leaving or giving it up, but now you get the sense that he gets it on an explicit/conscious level that Cheers is the thing that makes him happiest and he won't take it for granted or give it up. I want to see some growth from the characters I watch.

The Night King storyline ended logically. Dani's storyline while ultimately logic would take more time for her to reach the point of tyrannical ruler. The seeds were planted but the ending hadn't been set up sufficiently. It's not surprising that the ending was not satisfying to most people but it's usually not for the reasons people claim. Take the most recent Star Wars as the prime example. The ending to the trilogy wasn't due to lack of planning nor because the middle film. The seeds were sown from the first film.

One ending I wish had stuck was Goku killing Freeza. That was a very satisfying ending. Goku gives Freeza the thing Freeza never shows others but is still so petulant he tries to kill his enemy.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 4:39 pm

KorgDTR2000 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:20 pm
I think EoZ is a perfect ending and apparently I'm the only person in the universe who feels that way.
I think the reason a lot of fans don't like EOZ (I didn't for awhile) is because of how out of nowhere it comes from. There's no build up to it or hints about it, it just happens and the story ends. Looking back at it, I've come to accept it as a good ending for the manga, but it would've greatly benefited from some sort of build up to get fans ready to say goodbye.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 4:56 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:39 pm
KorgDTR2000 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:20 pm
I think EoZ is a perfect ending and apparently I'm the only person in the universe who feels that way.
I think the reason a lot of fans don't like EOZ (I didn't for awhile) is because of how out of nowhere it comes from. There's no build up to it or hints about it, it just happens and the story ends. Looking back at it, I've come to accept it as a good ending for the manga, but it would've greatly benefited from some sort of build up to get fans ready to say goodbye.
You aren't specific about this. What wasn't set up?
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 5:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:56 pm
You aren't specific about this. What wasn't set up?
The ending. There were no hints about it in the Buu arc or any build up to it, it just pops up and that's it, DB's over.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 5:26 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:01 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:56 pm
You aren't specific about this. What wasn't set up?
The ending. There were no hints about it in the Buu arc or any build up to it, it just pops up and that's it, DB's over.
Not what I meant. There are no hints about what? Build up to what? What just pops out? What specifically about the ending?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 5:57 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:26 pm
There are no hints about what? Build up to what? What just pops out? What specifically about the ending?
You're just going in circles at this point, as I've made my point very clear.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by KorgDTR2000 » Sun May 10, 2020 6:28 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 4:39 pm
KorgDTR2000 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:20 pm
I think EoZ is a perfect ending and apparently I'm the only person in the universe who feels that way.
I think the reason a lot of fans don't like EOZ (I didn't for awhile) is because of how out of nowhere it comes from. There's no build up to it or hints about it, it just happens and the story ends. Looking back at it, I've come to accept it as a good ending for the manga, but it would've greatly benefited from some sort of build up to get fans ready to say goodbye.
I've never felt that way. To me the Boo arc was always the natural finale to me. Obviously I never read/saw it without knowing it was the last arc, but still. The stakes were higher than ever, almost every single character died, the Earth was destroyed, Vegeta's arc was finally resolved, Gohan's arc was finally resolved (even if in a half-assed way), the Genki Dama was brought back and was finally used to destroy the enemy, the Dragon Balls played a key role in the final fight, the Namekians were involved, we got cameos from Upa, Bora, #8, Sno and #17, Mr. Satan became a legitimate hero, and when it was all said and done there was that beautiful silent montage that highlighted almost every single character in the story.

So when the series ends a few chapters later I've never felt it was abrupt or sudden. The climax of the series was the Boo arc, the actual "10 years later" bit was just the epilogue. It's not something I felt would ever go on further or needed expansion. To me Dragon Ball is the 35-year journey of a boy becoming a hero, a man, a father, a mentor and in the very end a grandfather, told in 42 volumes.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 6:30 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:57 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:26 pm
There are no hints about what? Build up to what? What just pops out? What specifically about the ending?
You're just going in circles at this point, as I've made my point very clear.
You haven't made your point clear. That's my point.

"The problem with the ending is there was no set up"
"Set up to what"
"The ending"
"What specifically"
"The ending"

What do you mean - do you mean there was no indication the story was concluding?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 7:20 pm

KorgDTR2000 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:28 pm
To me the Boo arc was always the natural finale to me. Obviously I never read/saw it without knowing it was the last arc, but still. The stakes were higher than ever, almost every single character died, the Earth was destroyed, Vegeta's arc was finally resolved, Gohan's arc was finally resolved (even if in a half-assed way), the Genki Dama was brought back and was finally used to destroy the enemy, the Dragon Balls played a key role in the final fight, the Namekians were involved, we got cameos from Upa, Bora, #8, Sno and #17, Mr. Satan became a legitimate hero, and when it was all said and done there was that beautiful silent montage that highlighted almost every single character in the story.
I have no issue with the Buu arc itself, as like you mentioned, I also believe it was the right place to end the manga. I also have no issues with the epilogue. However, I feel that going from everyone celebrating on Kami's lookout to EOZ was kind of...I don't want to say rushed, because the manga was already above 500 chapters, but kind of sudden. One minute we're here, next we've jumped 10 years. I think a few chapters of down time before, or even a mini story would've helped things transition better.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by MyVisionity » Sun May 10, 2020 8:49 pm

I'm not sure if there is any special formula for a satisfying ending. As long as the series is wrapped up in some way. I think the DB/DBZ/GT endings are all satisfying.

There's only a problem with endings when bullshit is involved, like unexpected cancellations that force the writers' hands (Angel), or the show has gotten so bad that a satisfying ending is no longer possible (Buffy).

Also just because an ending is satisfying doesn't mean that you necessarily like it or that it's any good. It just means that you can take it. I also don't like endings that occur when a show could clearly keep going on. I prefer shows to just keep going on and on for as many seasons as possible.

I don't really like to think of one whole show as a "story" either. That doesn't seem accurate to me and is a bit much.

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:20 pm
I have no issue with the Buu arc itself, as like you mentioned, I also believe it was the right place to end the manga. I also have no issues with the epilogue. However, I feel that going from everyone celebrating on Kami's lookout to EOZ was kind of...I don't want to say rushed, because the manga was already above 500 chapters, but kind of sudden. One minute we're here, next we've jumped 10 years. I think a few chapters of down time before, or even a mini story would've helped things transition better.
Isn't that what the anime does? Provide a bit more content before the epilogue?

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun May 10, 2020 8:59 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:49 pm
Isn't that what the anime does? Provide a bit more content before the epilogue?
My comments are primarily focused on the original manga.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Sun May 10, 2020 9:26 pm

MyVisionity wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 8:49 pm
I'm not sure if there is any special formula for a satisfying ending. As long as the series is wrapped up in some way. I think the DB/DBZ/GT endings are all satisfying.

There's only a problem with endings when bullshit is involved, like unexpected cancellations that force the writers' hands (Angel), or the show has gotten so bad that a satisfying ending is no longer possible (Buffy).

Also just because an ending is satisfying doesn't mean that you necessarily like it or that it's any good. It just means that you can take it. I also don't like endings that occur when a show could clearly keep going on. I prefer shows to just keep going on and on for as many seasons as possible.

I don't really like to think of one whole show as a "story" either. That doesn't seem accurate to me and is a bit much.

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:20 pm
I have no issue with the Buu arc itself, as like you mentioned, I also believe it was the right place to end the manga. I also have no issues with the epilogue. However, I feel that going from everyone celebrating on Kami's lookout to EOZ was kind of...I don't want to say rushed, because the manga was already above 500 chapters, but kind of sudden. One minute we're here, next we've jumped 10 years. I think a few chapters of down time before, or even a mini story would've helped things transition better.
Isn't that what the anime does? Provide a bit more content before the epilogue?
I don't agree at all with your assessment of either Buffy or Angel's endings. They were the right endings. Both resolved their stories that felt appropriate to both characters. Buffy was about growing up and feeling trapped by responsibility. If the point of the show was female empowerment the ultimate conclusion to that story is sharing that power. Angel was all about living with regret. He was seeking redemption and for a while his hope stemmed from the promise of a reward, but the appropriate ending is there is no great reward, it's about always keep fighting day to day regardless of some prize that may or may not happen. You fight regardless of the odds and whether you win or not.

I do like to think of one show or film series as ultimately one story, even if there are many plots. In DB's case, it's Goku's story of striving to be the best he can be and reach for greater heights.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by Vijay » Sun May 10, 2020 10:52 pm

@Matches Malone
Guess that's what happens when you put 2 fan-favourites into a fight: a stalemate. Just sayin, instead of decisive winner, watchin those 2 goin at it @ FP even with their Base Forms would've provided a nice closure, staying true to Z's action-oriented spirit

@ ABED
Dude, are u sayin in GT, following Goku's depart with Shenron post-Omega's defeat the DragonBalls were gone & the world was fine? What's ur source?

It's merely a side story, but didn't Goku Jr planned to gather DB's in order to heal Pan's illness in GT's special?

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by MyVisionity » Sun May 10, 2020 11:00 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:26 pm
I don't agree at all with your assessment of either Buffy or Angel's endings. They were the right endings. Both resolved their stories that felt appropriate to both characters. Buffy was about growing up and feeling trapped by responsibility. If the point of the show was female empowerment the ultimate conclusion to that story is sharing that power. Angel was all about living with regret. He was seeking redemption and for a while his hope stemmed from the promise of a reward, but the appropriate ending is there is no great reward, it's about always keep fighting day to day regardless of some prize that may or may not happen. You fight regardless of the odds and whether you win or not.
They might be satisfying endings from a thematic perspective, but in terms of things like plot and character threads, and overall quality in general, they are sorely lacking. Buffy had gone too far downhill to salvage the finale and Angel's cancellation led to an acceptable but absurd and disappointing ending. The endings are only "appropriate" within a limited context.

ABED wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 9:26 pm
I do like to think of one show or film series as ultimately one story, even if there are many plots. In DB's case, it's Goku's story of striving to be the best he can be and reach for greater heights.
I feel like with a lot of series, they only really become "stories" after the fact. While it is still airing or being published, they are just "the next installment in the series", and only when it reaches the end does it become "a story".

I have a hard time calling DB "Goku's story" even though he's the main character. Especially after the 23rd Budoukai when there are so many other characters and the plot keeps Goku away so much. I just think that DB deserves a broader description than just "Goku's story".

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 1:12 am

Again, disagree completely. The characters progressed beautifully and reached their natural endpoint.
I feel like with a lot of series, they only really become "stories" after the fact. While it is still airing or being published, they are just "the next installment in the series", and only when it reaches the end does it become "a story".
There's no requirement for a story to be considered a singular story while it's in progress. Sometimes it takes time for the picture to fully form and add up to something. The plot are the events that happen, but the story are what it is really about.
Especially after the 23rd Budoukai when there are so many other characters Especially after the 23rd Budoukai when there are so many other characters
The number of characters doesn't make it any less about him. He's still the central character and much of the plot revolves around them waiting for him to arrive.
Dude, are u sayin in GT, following Goku's depart with Shenron post-Omega's defeat the DragonBalls were gone & the world was fine? What's ur source?
Um, GT's epilogue. Is the world okay? Is it destroyed? I find this such a weird comment as though off screen the world is half in shambles but the writers just don't show us.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by KorgDTR2000 » Mon May 11, 2020 1:30 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 7:20 pm
KorgDTR2000 wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 6:28 pm
To me the Boo arc was always the natural finale to me. Obviously I never read/saw it without knowing it was the last arc, but still. The stakes were higher than ever, almost every single character died, the Earth was destroyed, Vegeta's arc was finally resolved, Gohan's arc was finally resolved (even if in a half-assed way), the Genki Dama was brought back and was finally used to destroy the enemy, the Dragon Balls played a key role in the final fight, the Namekians were involved, we got cameos from Upa, Bora, #8, Sno and #17, Mr. Satan became a legitimate hero, and when it was all said and done there was that beautiful silent montage that highlighted almost every single character in the story.
I have no issue with the Buu arc itself, as like you mentioned, I also believe it was the right place to end the manga. I also have no issues with the epilogue. However, I feel that going from everyone celebrating on Kami's lookout to EOZ was kind of...I don't want to say rushed, because the manga was already above 500 chapters, but kind of sudden. One minute we're here, next we've jumped 10 years. I think a few chapters of down time before, or even a mini story would've helped things transition better.
I dunno, that's kinda what I like about it. I think if it had been drawn out a little more it would seemed more abrupt, as counter-intuitive as that sounds, because there's no pretense about this thing carrying on. We get that final moment on the lookout that's the real end, then right into a super short epilogue. If there had been more content I think there would have been a greater expectation that the story was going to pick up again, which would have made the ending more of a blindside.

I think it's comparable to something like Harry Potter. The battle is over, good job everyone, smash cut to a quick epilogue to tell us how everything turned out and then The End.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by MyVisionity » Mon May 11, 2020 2:41 am

ABED wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:12 am
The number of characters doesn't make it any less about him. He's still the central character and much of the plot revolves around them waiting for him to arrive.
Much of the plot revolves around Goku's *arrival*, not Goku himself. And that's because he's the main character. But just because you're the main character doesn't mean it's your story. It just means that you play a central or leading role in it.

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Re: What exactly makes a satisfying ending?

Post by ABED » Mon May 11, 2020 2:56 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 2:41 am
ABED wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 1:12 am
The number of characters doesn't make it any less about him. He's still the central character and much of the plot revolves around them waiting for him to arrive.
Much of the plot revolves around Goku's *arrival*, not Goku himself. And that's because he's the main character. But just because you're the main character doesn't mean it's your story. It just means that you play a central or leading role in it.
First you've made a distinction without a difference. Second, the story is about the central character. That's what makes them the central character.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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