Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

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Mad Swami
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Mad Swami » Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:12 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:54 pm
Because proactive main characters are more interesting than main characters that things just happen to. If another character is the one working to determine the course of the story, why aren't we following them?
Sure, but it's still interesting to me because Goku is at his least active during the Buu saga
Only because he's dead. That doesn't make him not proactive. He's not able to be proactive but the second he's able to do anything, he becomes proactive. Gohan rarely takes action. It's when he does that he becomes interesting, like his journey in the Saiyan arc or in the Namek arc when he decides to go to Namek even against his mother's wishes.
Well absolutely but it still means in the arc Goku is his least active.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by ABED » Thu May 14, 2020 10:16 pm

Gohan's not all that active either. He's in the Kaioshin Realm waiting for Elder Kaioshin to power him up.
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Mad Swami » Thu May 14, 2020 10:18 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:16 pm
Gohan's not all that active either. He's in the Kaioshin Realm waiting for Elder Kaioshin to power him up.
Oh 100% I'm just saying.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by JulieYBM » Thu May 14, 2020 10:31 pm

Tomioka Atsuhiro has written Satoshi from Pokemon since 1997. He could write Gokuu just as long.
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Matches Malone » Thu May 14, 2020 10:41 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:42 pm
This might derail the thread, but I have to ask. Why do you think Gohan couldn't fully take the mantel for an entire arc?
For me, it's 2 reasons: 1- The primary focus of the story was Vegeta's arc being concluded, something you couldn't do without Goku. 2- It was the final of the original manga, a manga which was Goku's story from the start. If Gohan was to take the lead, it'd be better for it to happen in a new ongoing focused on the next gen.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Mad Swami » Thu May 14, 2020 10:48 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:41 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:42 pm
This might derail the thread, but I have to ask. Why do you think Gohan couldn't fully take the mantel for an entire arc?
For me, it's 2 reasons: 1- The primary focus of the story was Vegeta's arc being concluded, something you couldn't do without Goku. 2- It was the final of the original manga, a manga which was Goku's story from the start. If Gohan was to take the lead, it'd be better for it to happen in a new ongoing focused on the next gen.
I think those are good points. Vegeta's arc is really one of if not the main focus of the Buu arc. That's why Vegito happens, a literal showcase of their growth and the importance their relationship has on one another. That's also why he technically earns the last fight really. He distracts Kid Buu which is honestly the last fight of Z up until Uub of course.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Matches Malone » Thu May 14, 2020 11:02 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:48 pm
That's why Vegito happens, a literal showcase of their growth and the importance their relationship has on one another. That's also why he technically earns the last fight really. He distracts Kid Buu which is honestly the last fight of Z up until Uub of course.
Thier fusion is another thing that couldn't happen without Goku, showing that he finally accepted Goku as a friend (kind of). Not only did he get the last fight against Buu, the whole method of taking him down was his idea. The whole fight against Kid Buu was a great example of Vegeta using his strategic mind to win the fight, something he couldn't do with his strength. I never thought of this before, but I think an argument can be made that Vegeta played the biggest role in taking Kid Buu down, not Goku. Goku was more of a tool for Vegeta to use against him.
Last edited by Matches Malone on Thu May 14, 2020 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu May 14, 2020 11:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 8:56 pm
What you are talking about isn't change. It's refusing to let go. This isn't real life where an over the hill athlete refuses to pass the torch. It's a story. When the central focus of the story has reached it's end, it's time to end the story. DB stagnated years ago. Putting someone else in Goku's spot gives the appearance of change without actually changing. It's been 30 years. If the audience hasn't grown tired now, it's doubtful they will. DB doesn't need fresh blood. It's best years are behind it. It's time to take it out to pasture.

DB is Goku's story so no another person taking his place doesn't have the potential to tell Goku's story better than Goku. And GT reinforced the idea that there's nothing left for the original characters to do because there isn't. It's time to end the story. Every story has a natural endpoint and DB reached its long ago. I still standby my point of screw the next generation. If the next step is becoming teachers, tell it from the teacher's POV, not the student. The whole idea is to take them in new directions and yet just when they do the story switches POV? That's such a bad move. The original characters have built up a rapport with the audience.

Miles is the least interesting Spider-Man in his own movie. He's a character created because a hack didn't want to do the hard work of creating something original so he traveled on the shoulders of giants. Just like DB's hypothetical sequels.

DB may want to tell new stories, but there's nowhere else really to go with the story. DB isn't a world. That's not what draws fans time and time again - it's Goku and his friends. The next gen will not be a blank slate. Their choices will still be dictated by what came before.
"What you are talking about isn't change. It's refusing to let go."

You just summed the biggest issue with Dragon Ball stories since Battle Of Gods. It's needs to move on from character who are obviously exhausted from a narrative sense. I can't think of any character who done through any kind of unique character development in modern Dragon Ball or has gone through development that hasn't felt like a vapid retread of previous development.

I'm more than happy for Dragon Ball to never tell any stories just as much as I wouldn't mind if it did tell more stories. But if want to tell more stories, it needs to do more with the cast than that just have them there for shits and giggles. Otherwise I'll get nothing out of the story beyond the occasional gag -- and if I'm lucky -- some scenery porn. And that is not how Dragon Ball told its story originally.

Again, I'm not denying how much Goku's journey is fundamental into making Dragon Ball was it is. But Dragon Ball doesn't have to die with it. The basic gist of Dragon Ball's story is simple: martial artist(s) has adventures world and encounters other martial artist. You can that do with anyone.

There's just nothing left of any real substance for the current main cast to do at this point. If Dragon Ball is to regain its sense of development and growth that is was well known for -- and something that at the time the manga was originally published made it stand out amongst other shonen manga -- it needs to move on. And so do some its fans.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Mad Swami » Thu May 14, 2020 11:11 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:02 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 10:48 pm
That's why Vegito happens, a literal showcase of their growth and the importance their relationship has on one another. That's also why he technically earns the last fight really. He distracts Kid Buu which is honestly the last fight of Z up until Uub of course.
Thier fusion is another thing that couldn't happen without Goku, showing that he finally accepted Goku as a friend (kind of). Not only did he get the last fight against Buu, the whole method of taking him down was his idea. The whole fight against Kid Buu was a great example of Vegeta using his strategic mind to win the fight, something he couldn't do with his strength.
Exactly. Buu arc was when Vegeta was at his best IMO

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by MyVisionity » Thu May 14, 2020 11:49 pm

I think another reason it is so difficult to move on from Goku and do a continuation with a new lead character is because Toriyama had already gone as far as he could with Goku and the series officially ended. It's not like a television show where the actor leaves in the middle of the series, or a comic book that is written to be ongoing. The X-Files could go on with new leads because Mulder's story was interrupted when Duchovny left, and so it didn't feel like the story was truly finished. You could keep going with Ben Reilly after Peter Parker was written out because there were still countless stories with Parker yet to be told. But with Dragon Ball, Goku had pretty much gone as far as he could, or at least as far as the author was willing to take him. So you can't just stick in a new guy and pick up from there. It's harder to justify.

Maybe there is no way to do a true DB sequel without soulless milking. It would almost have to be some kind of re-imagining for it to work. Something so far removed from the original series that you forget all about it.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by ABED » Fri May 15, 2020 6:14 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:09 pm
I'm more than happy for Dragon Ball to never tell any stories just as much as I wouldn't mind if it did tell more stories. But if want to tell more stories, it needs to do more with the cast than that just have them there for shits and giggles. Otherwise I'll get nothing out of the story beyond the occasional gag -- and if I'm lucky -- some scenery porn. And that is not how Dragon Ball told its story originally.

Again, I'm not denying how much Goku's journey is fundamental into making Dragon Ball was it is. But Dragon Ball doesn't have to die with it. The basic gist of Dragon Ball's story is simple: martial artist(s) has adventures world and encounters other martial artist. You can that do with anyone.

There's just nothing left of any real substance for the current main cast to do at this point. If Dragon Ball is to regain its sense of development and growth that is was well known for -- and something that at the time the manga was originally published made it stand out amongst other shonen manga -- it needs to move on. And so do some its fans.
But that's NOT the story. The story is GOKU'S adventures and encounters with other martial artists. You can do that story with anyone, but when you do it without Goku, it's no longer DB. You're right that's a story that can be done with anyone, so what makes DB unique? The quirkiness of its tone and its characters. We're not just watching a martial artist's trials and tribulations, we're watching a specific martial artist's journey.
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:49 pm
Goku had pretty much gone as far as the author was willing to take him. So you can't just stick in a new guy and pick up from there. It's harder to justify.
Actually you can, as that was set up pretty well in EOZ, with Goku talking about the next gen taking over. Toriyama even wrote such a story in DB online, although personally I wouldn't remove the original cast from it by setting things 200 years in the future.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri May 15, 2020 8:46 am

ABED wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:14 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:09 pm
I'm more than happy for Dragon Ball to never tell any stories just as much as I wouldn't mind if it did tell more stories. But if want to tell more stories, it needs to do more with the cast than that just have them there for shits and giggles. Otherwise I'll get nothing out of the story beyond the occasional gag -- and if I'm lucky -- some scenery porn. And that is not how Dragon Ball told its story originally.

Again, I'm not denying how much Goku's journey is fundamental into making Dragon Ball was it is. But Dragon Ball doesn't have to die with it. The basic gist of Dragon Ball's story is simple: martial artist(s) has adventures world and encounters other martial artist. You can that do with anyone.

There's just nothing left of any real substance for the current main cast to do at this point. If Dragon Ball is to regain its sense of development and growth that is was well known for -- and something that at the time the manga was originally published made it stand out amongst other shonen manga -- it needs to move on. And so do some its fans.
But that's NOT the story. The story is GOKU'S adventures and encounters with other martial artists. You can do that story with anyone, but when you do it without Goku, it's no longer DB. You're right that's a story that can be done with anyone, so what makes DB unique? The quirkiness of its tone and its characters. We're not just watching a martial artist's trials and tribulations, we're watching a specific martial artist's journey.
Exactly, they took Naruto out of Naruto and its been struggling ever since. Boruto is a new series set in the same universe as Naruto with a brand new cast of main characters and the overall product has been widely considered to just not be very good at all.
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by ABED » Fri May 15, 2020 9:00 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:02 am
MyVisionity wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 11:49 pm
Goku had pretty much gone as far as the author was willing to take him. So you can't just stick in a new guy and pick up from there. It's harder to justify.
Actually you can, as that was set up pretty well in EOZ, with Goku talking about the next gen taking over. Toriyama even wrote such a story in DB online, although personally I wouldn't remove the original cast from it by setting things 200 years in the future.
The end of DB wasn't about setting up the new generation. At least, that's not how I saw it.
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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri May 15, 2020 11:20 am

ABED wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:14 am
But that's NOT the story. The story is GOKU'S adventures and encounters with other martial artists. You can do that story with anyone, but when you do it without Goku, it's no longer DB. You're right that's a story that can be done with anyone, so what makes DB unique? The quirkiness of its tone and its characters. We're not just watching a martial artist's trials and tribulations, we're watching a specific martial artist's journey.
The main point of this thread is talking about an ideal sequel to the manga. And an ideal sequel doesn't have characters who have very much overstayed their welcome, have no room left for personal growth and are just around for nostalgia pops. Otherwise you fall into the trap that man other media proprieties do when it comes do when it comes to sequels of original complete works. If Dragon Ball is tell more stories I do not want it to turn into something like Disney Star Wars where is there is a desperate attempt to cling onto the past and spending less time on cultivating the future, and the overall narrative suffering for it.

Again, GT gave fans a glimpse into what the future had in the store for the main cast: they all moved on from martial arts apart from Goku. And in Goku's case he was still a static character who had nothing of substance to offer beyond a new transformation. That is not my ideal Dragon Ball sequel, and I say this as someone who likes GT for what it is. If Dragon Ball was to tell more stories it has to go beyond what Goku and the gang are doing.

Seeing Goku go on more adventures would just be tiresome and redundant at this stage because he's already become one of the strongest martial artists in the universe, and there are so many more "really strong guys" you throw at go become it becomes tiresome and charm dies. That's why I have the mentality of fast forwarding WAY into the future with brand new cast. It's a narrative risk, but at least you have a lot more to work with.

When you can't come up for a way to organically develop a character, you retire them. What could having Goku in the spotlight in a sequel to Dragon Ball's story offer that we haven't seen before? Especially if we're going to take the events of Super into question? It may be charming on so occasions but you need more than charm and quirks for a story to feel as though it has something of substance. This is why Resurrection F didn't click with some fans because it did nothing to enrich the characters. It just relied on the already established dynamic between the main cast to coast through the movie. And a major consequence of this is the characters feeling less like characters more like props that solely exist to remind that this is a Dragon Ball story. And how can that kind of scenario be considered an ideal sequel to Dragon Ball?

You can't just have the characters go through the same beats over and over again, people will get bored of it. And I don't want to get bored of a character I like a lot.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:46 am
Exactly, they took Naruto out of Naruto and its been struggling ever since. Boruto is a new series set in the same universe as Naruto with a brand new cast of main characters and the overall product has been widely considered to just not be very good at all.
Boruto is just one example. The concept of a new cast telling new stories in the same universe as previously established and complete narrative has worked before to great effect. The idea itself is ultimately neutral. It all comes down to execution.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Majin Buu » Fri May 15, 2020 11:21 am

ABED wrote:
Thu May 14, 2020 9:45 pm
Because Gohan is both a reluctant hero and to earnest. The feel and tone of DB fits Goku like a glove. Also, Gohan is simply not proactive enough to be the lead.
Exactly.

Gohan doesn't display a whole lot of agency in the stuff that happens to him. He's a mostly reactionary character.

Goku works as Dragon Ball's protagonist because he is a simple character and Dragon Ball is a simple story. For Gohan to work as the lead, you'd have to rework Dragon Ball into a different type of story. Toriyama wasn't willing to do that, and it wouldn't have been smart for him to try so late in the manga's run.

Thing is, no one else with any power is willing to that for modern Dragon Ball either.

You can't really make Dragon Ball fresh at this point without a significant overhaul. The problem with that is that a significant overhaul would require so much change that at some point it would start to not feel like Dragon Ball anymore. And what would be the point of that kind of change if the result was barely recognizable as Dragon Ball? At that point you might as well just create something new instead.

To me, it seems like that's what the "Dragon Ball needs to change" crowd wants: Something that has superficial similarities to Dragon Ball but is no longer really Dragon Ball at it's core.
Last edited by Majin Buu on Fri May 15, 2020 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 15, 2020 11:21 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 8:46 am
Boruto is a new series set in the same universe as Naruto with a brand new cast of main characters and the overall product has been widely considered to just not be very good at all.
That has more to do with the writers, not the concept. Any concept is as good or bad as the people writing it.
Majin Buu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:21 am
Something that has superficial similarities to Dragon Ball but is no longer really Dragon Ball at it's core.
Isn't this what dragon ball has become, despite the main characters still being around ? Nearly everything we've gotten post BOG has been limited to cool fight scenes and transformations. Character development has been thrown out the window in favor of a stagnant status quo, and characters have been regressed in order to keep this already dead horse alive. A lot of what made DB what it is has already been lost, so a new cast can't really do much worse, and if anything will only improve things.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Majin Buu » Fri May 15, 2020 11:55 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:21 am
Isn't this what dragon ball has become, despite the main characters still being around ?
Exactly, which is why it should be allowed to end, not continue. I get that the topic of the thread is deliberately set on the premise of "if Dragon Ball is forced to continue", but the actual solution is to just let it end. It shouldn't be continuing in the first place.

Yeah, Toei and Shueisha won't let it end (unless it becomes unprofitable), but this isn't good for Dragon Ball. The topic honestly reads like a trick question the more I think about this.
A lot of what made DB what it is has already been lost, so a new cast can't really do much worse, and if anything will only improve things.
At that point, why not just invest in creating something new? Rather than make drastic changes that will likely only fracture the fanbase further?

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 15, 2020 12:08 pm

Majin Buu wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:55 am
At that point, why not just invest in creating something new?
Why not indeed. I think that's a good idea if nothing more can be done with DB, or any franchise for that matter.

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Re: Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

Post by Toxin45 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:19 pm

Because dragon ball multi media cash cow

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