Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

[Lord Beerus]

Sure, a 40 minute one off TV special - that's the same.

The point was that it worked. The story didn't need to rely on the main cast, beyond a few brief moments of imagery to not only be compelling story but still feel Dragon Ball.

And you are abusing the word "arbitrary". Stories are about characters that's just a fact.

I never said the stories isn't about the characters. Dragon Ball's success isn't just based purely on the fact that Goku exists in the plot. It's what he and other people do in the plot, which just so happens to be fighting. That's is Dragon Ball's main hook and what it bases the stories around. A sentiment Toriyama himself also said. The characters compliment what the main appeal of Dragon Ball is a whole. If you were to place the same main cast in a slice-of-life setting for an extended period of time, it wouldn't go down well because that's not what people got into Dragon Ball came to see. They came to see people beat the shit out of each other in high stakes scenarios. That may seem shallow to say, but that doesn't make Dragon Ball bad by any means. It's not some avant-garde work. It's a simple narrative that focuses on martial arts.

Of course they didn't care about Goku, they didn't know him. They didn't know what Dragon Ball was either. However the audience grew and so did expectations. They came to care about Goku in his own story. After years with him as the lead the name DB will carry expectations and baggage because when they think DB they think Goku which makes sense given it's about him! Imagine that, stories are about their main characters. Creating a brand new series gets rid of any expectations and allows a fresh start.

And what to say that the charm and appeal of the battles in Dragon Ball will most certain die without Goku? People thought Star Trek wouldn't be same without James T. Kirk , then Jean-Luc Picard was introduced, was developed well and is either considered as good as captain as Kirk.

And things like this have been tried. Shows keep going all the time without a lead. It doesn't end well. And it's not always a function of the writing. you dismiss lightning in a bottle as a factor.

I know damn well things like this have been tried and success always varies. I just want someone to try and take a stab at it. If it fails, you will always have GT and Super to fall back on.

And the lightning in a bottle factor comes down to two things: timeframe and quality. Martial arts manga were very uncommon in being aimed at the shonen demographic. Then Fist Of The North Star happened, exploded in popularity almost instantly because most young boys had never seen comic like that before. Dragon Ball just followed up on that unexpected success and kept the narrative simple enough that anyone could get into it. It also helped that Dr Slump proved that Toriyama was a very good mangaka to begin with.

Star Trek series aren't sequels, they're spin offs. Watchmen was a sequel. It followed the characters at a later point in their story. Why can't you get the concepts straight?

The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager all take place chronologically after the original Star Trek series and were treated as sequels to it.

ANd your Broly example is ridiculous for so many reasons, not the least of which is people like the character!

People don't like Broly for what kind of his character is. They just like him for appearance in fights. It's incredibly superficial. That's made all the more clear by the fact his 2nd and 3rd film had him practically two lines, and those films still made a lot of money.

I'm not separating the characters from the fighting. You are. It's not just the fighting, it's not just the characters, it's specific characters fighting that matter to people.

But the fighting is ultimately the main hook. Once people get tired of that, they start caring less and less of even the specific characters involved in the battles. If that wasn't the case, GT would have last much longer and franchise wouldn't have become dormant in terms of new narrative material for nearly 20 years.

And you continue to evade the question.

I'm not evading a question I've already answered several times. You're just replying to my main answer with another question.

[LoganForkHands73]

I generally agree with ABED that straightfoward sequels about Dragon Ball should focus on the characters we already know. I'd say that characters by and large the most important thing in Dragon Ball's case, but that doesn't apply to every work of fiction. Some writers, mainly in avant garde films and literature, do the absolute bare minimum of character development but still create interesting stories. I've seen indie films that eschew characters all together and somehow tell interesting stories solely with multicoloured shapes and patterns... Obviously those ones don't tend to make it big on any mainstream level

At the same time, I'm never the kind of guy that says that something absolutely can't be done. Whenever anyone says someone can't be done, a mischievous part of me wants to see or make it happen. Although it wouldn't be my preference, a marketed sequel to Dragon Ball with none of the same characters could be made if someone desperately wanted to tell that story in this exact setting. It might be crap, it might even be good. Who can definitively say unless it's made?

LordBeerus raises an interesting point that the Dragon Balls, beyond their initial function as MacGuffins, do inform the setting and stakes of many arcs simply by existing, even if they are not the focus or motivation behind any of the characters' actions. Collecting the Dragon Balls is no longer an issue by the end of Z, but their existence provides one of the pivotal back drops to any conflict we see in that they erase death from the equation, so creating tension around that is one of the challenges that's fairly exclusive to the Dragon Ball universe. Only American comic book universes are so blase about death, but there's no consistent "out" in the same fashion. Recreating that backdrop in a different independent property altogether would of course be possible, but it would lead to accusations that you're just ripping off Dragon Ball wholesale.

[ABED]

But in a new property you are free to create the rules to your magic and not have an easy out

Beerus not ONCE did you answer the question. When did you ever mention why it wouldn't be better to make a completely different franchise?

If you were to place the same main cast in a slice-of-life setting for an extended period of time, it wouldn't go down well because that's not what people got into Dragon Ball came to see. They came to see people beat the shit out of each other in high stakes scenarios.

And herein lies your misunderstanding of what is meant by characters. Being a martial artist and fighting is a part of their character.

And the lightning in a bottle factor comes down to two things: timeframe and quality.

Timing is definitely a factor but quality is subjective and lots of crap becomes popular. Broly, case in point. He's not a great character and people like him for superficial reasons but alas he's a big hit. It may be mostly the design and he's a wrecking machine but popular designs are difficult.

But the fighting is ultimately the main hook. Once people get tired of that, they start caring less and less of even the specific characters involved in the battles. If that wasn't the case, GT would have last much longer and franchise wouldn't have become dormant in terms of new narrative material for nearly 20 years.

The fighting and the characters are inseparable. They go hand in hand. GT was at the end of a 10 year run. Fatigue had already set in well before GT. I'm absolutely certain there are series with far better fight scenes than DB that aren't nearly as popular. Hence the point that it's lightning in a bottle. It's the mix of right time, right place, right product, and right doesn't always mean quality.

I've seen indie films that eschew characters all together and somehow tell interesting stories solely with multicoloured shapes and patterns.

How? How is that a story?

[goku the krump dancer]

If you introduce a brand new cast of characters set in the same universe it’s almost inevitable that they’ll eventually tread the same wheels.. How long does the new cast go before we get a “oh it’s their version of Freeza” or “its their version of Piccolo,Vegeta, Androids etc” (and we’ve already gotten that lol), how long before the friend of the new main character gets killed and it triggers a transformation? And yeah one can chalk those up to Shonen tropes but they’re done in each respective series differently enough to fit their own narratives but similarly to where they can be compared in a broader aspect. The first Naruto/Sasuke fight is just as important as the first Goku/Vegeta fight yet serve different purposes within their own stories.

It’ll constantly be compared to Goku’s story by proxy just cause it shares the same name.. Hell Kale and Caulifla got Super Saiyan in a totally different way than anyone we’ve seen before and people lost their minds because they compared it to what was done before. The tingly back thing is also a Wuxia concept as well as pointed out by Kunzait.

Even if you set the new cast in a totally different universe within the Dragon Ball spectrum and establish that the new guys fight to maintain peace and but pride themselves with technology instead of traditional martial arts, is it still even Dragon Ball at that point? Well heck we got that already with Universe 3 in Super. You almost have to ask yourself what can honestly be done with a new cast that just won’t retread what was already done. How different can you make it before it becomes literally its own thing. I’m sure whenever a new Yugioh or Gundam series is announced it’s always gonna get compared to the last one whether they’re direct sequels, loosely connected or their own separate stories.

Even this DBHeroes stuff has two Gokus and two Vegeta’s tagging along with these so called new “main characters” if you can even call Beat and Note that.


The Bardock and Trunks side stories, while they primarily focus on other character it’s ultimate goal is to show why or how these characters have or want a connection with Main Character Goku. Trunks wants Goku help to fight the androids and to warn him of his own incoming threat and Bardock is literally Goku’s dad. Minor side stories that tie into the main one. Hell even Hero’s Legacy ultimately ends with the notion that Goku’s great grandson is going to strive to be just like him. It all ties back to Goku at the end of the day. Dragon Ball is about Goku! Naruto is about Naruto, One Piece is about Luffy, YuYu Hakusho is about Yusuke, Inuyasha is about Inuyasha, Samurai Champloo is about Mugen,Jin and Fu and Sailor Moon is about Usagi!

[JulieYBM]

Frankly, I want to see Yamcha drafted into an alien baseball league and just do a Yamcha-led baseball 'sports anime'. It'd be so off the wall for Dragon Ball.

[Lord Beerus]

Beerus not ONCE did you answer the question. When did you ever mention why it wouldn't be better to make a completely different franchise?

It doesn't need to be a different franchise. Especially if the Dragon Balls still serves as an important backbone to resolution of the plot for 90% of the arcs and focus remains on martial arts.

And herein lies your misunderstanding of what is meant by characters. Being a martial artist and fighting is a part of their character.

Being a martial artist is what defines their character, especially for Goku. Every decision the main cast makes is rooted in their profession of martial arts and how much it means to them. Major characters don't get killed off and story arcs are literally created or prolonged because of what their skills and abilities as a martial artist means to them. If you took the element of martial arts out their character, you've got nothing to work with or you get a completely different story.

Timing is definitely a factor but quality is subjective and lots of crap becomes popular. Broly, case in point. He's not a great character and people like him for superficial reasons but alas he's a big hit. It may be mostly the design and he's a wrecking machine but popular designs are difficult.

Quality is certainly subjective. But Dragon Ball was just good enough at being a martial arts story. Until the fans, and even Toriyama himself, just got bored of the whole thing and moved on.

The fighting and the characters are inseparable. They go hand in hand. GT was at the end of a 10 year run. Fatigue had already set in well before GT. I'm absolutely certain there are series with far better fight scenes than DB that aren't nearly as popular. Hence the point that it's lightning in a bottle. It's the mix of right time, right place, right product, and right doesn't always mean quality.

Right doesn't always mean quality, but that's not say Dragon Ball wasn't very good at what it did. It was still extremely fun and tightly written comic to read, then and now. It just got complacent with the same formula in the long run and never thought to innovate or spice it up.

[ABED]

It doesn't need to be a different franchise.

The question is WHY NOT? You keep evading this question

If you took the element of martial arts out their character, you've got nothing to work with or you get a completely different story.

Stop arguing against a strawman.

Goku the krump dancer is on the money.

[Lord Beerus]

The question is WHY NOT? You keep evading this question

I've already answered this question so many damn times. Your reply to my answers isn't even a reply, it just asking the same question again.

I'll keep this as simple as possible: Dragon Ball's modus operandi when it comes to storytelling, centres around martial arts, and a sequel to Dragon Ball doesn't need to, and very likely won't, change that. So re-branding that kind of work doesn't have to happen.

Stop arguing against a strawman.

So... you just basically admitted your argument is a fallacy? Because I simply pointed out that being a martial artist is what defines their character, as I pointed using a page from the original source material. And the only reason I even made had to make that comment to begin was to highlight that Dragon Ball's appeal comes people beating the shit out of eachother, which worked because the characters were defined as proud martial artists.

[ABED]

No, it's not a fallacy, it's simply you don't understand my point. Now maybe I'm not clear, though I'm unsure how much clearer I can be - I never attempted to claim you separate the martial arts from the characters. I get that you don't think it needs to be, but why SHOULD it be a Dragon Ball story if you are making so many changes and not having any of the old lead characters? Yes, we like seeing characters beat the shit out of each other but given how much more popular DB is and remains, it's clear that it's THESE group of characters that people enjoy seeing beat the piss out of each other, not just any characters.

It's a symbiotic relationship. The characters can't just be doing anything, but the fighting alone isn't enough. Besides, the best action comes from character.

Not one reply has ever answered why you think it's better that your idea be a Dragon Ball story and not its own separate property. If so, please show me.

Let me translate the change you made to your reply: "Because it has martial arts fantasy elements, it can still be Dragon Ball."

If your criteria for what constitutes "DB" is literally an entire genre, it's too broad.

[Lord Beerus]

No, it's not a fallacy, it's simply you don't understand my point. Now maybe I'm not clear, though I'm unsure how much clearer I can be - I never attempted to claim you separate the martial arts from the characters. I get that you don't think it needs to be, but why SHOULD it be a Dragon Ball story if you are making so many changes and not having any of the old lead characters? Yes, we like seeing characters beat the shit out of each other but given how much more popular DB is and remains, it's clear that it's THESE group of characters that people enjoy seeing beat the piss out of each other, not just any characters.

It's a symbiotic relationship. The characters can't just be doing anything, but the fighting alone isn't enough. Besides, the best action comes from character.

Not one reply has ever answered why you think it's better that your idea be a Dragon Ball story and not its own separate property. If so, please show me.

The only changes I'm suggesting is the characters. I said never get rid of everything that defines Dragon Ball (focus on martial arts, heavy homages to kung-fu movies and the Dragon Balls)

And much as you want to downplay how important the Dragon Balls are to distinction they give to the narrative, they do play an integral roles in the stories the main cast involved. They provide the stories with longevity. And that longevity allowed for more character development and more general presences. Which were both paramount to audience being more invested in the character themselves. Without the concept of the Dragon Balls, the plot ends at the Saiyan arc, and so much character development and wonderful storytelling is lost. This is why I'm stressing that as important as the characters are to defining Dragon Ball, the Dragon Balls themselves play a significant role in what makes Dragon Ball the interesting story that it is.

The fighting is ultimately the big draw for Dragon Ball. This may seem shallow to say, but a lot people are drawn into by the spectacle. There's a reason many fans loves Dragon Ball Super Broly and why it made a shitload money, and it sure as hell wasn't because it featured a unique narrative or was a compelling character driven story. If you give the fandom a boring and/or ugly fight to look at they by in large will stop caring almost immediately, regardless of how developed the characters are or how attached they are to them. Plus, a lot of character development happens either through the fighting or because of it. And fans are aware of this. So if aren't going to develop a character through the battle or the very least superficially entertain them with the spectacle of it, you'll lose their interest in the story very quickly.

I'm not even suggesting that a hypothetical story last nearly as long as the original Dragon Ball did. It could last a few dozen episodes and could be great or could be bad. But as long as that kind of story doesn't act if Dragon Balls don't exist and focus on martial arts is still there, there's no reason to judge is as not being a Dragon Ball story. Unless the superficial appearances of the main cast mean that much to you. And if that's the case, then I just find that kind of invested in Dragon Ball to quite shallow.

[ABED]

All that leaves are the genre (which is wide!) and a few plot devices, not the things that truly separate DB from the rest of an entire genre.

The DB's aren't distinct. Wishing devices are very common tropes.

[Lord Beerus]

All that leaves are the genre (which is wide!) and a few plot devices, not the things that truly separate DB from the rest of an entire genre.

The amount of shonen manga/anime that are neck deep in term of influence from Wuxia and Xianxia novels like Dragon Ball was are still few and far between. Dragon Ball may have played a significant part in popularising some of the character traits and narrative beats you'd see in other shonen manga and anime, but the storytelling is still varied enough its intricacies. Dragon Ball being a Wuxia shonen manga/anime, is one its unique attributes and selling points. It's same deal with Yu Yu Hakusho and Fist Of The North Star.

The DB's aren't distinct. Wishing devices are very common tropes.

The Dragon Balls themselves are a basic reset button narrative trope. How they integrate into in the plot is fairly unique, though. With regards to how often they are used to not only kick start a plot, but are used to resolve the plot for 90% of the time and even being the catalyst to the cast developing such a casual attitude to death.

[ABED]

All that leaves are the genre (which is wide!) and a few plot devices, not the things that truly separate DB from the rest of an entire genre.

The amount of shonen manga/anime that are neck deep in term of influence from Wuxia and Xianxia novels like Dragon Ball was are still few and far between. Dragon Ball may have played a significant part in popularising some of the character traits and narrative beats you'd see in other shonen manga and anime, but the storytelling is still varied enough its intricacies. Dragon Ball being a Wuxia shonen manga/anime, is one its unique attributes and selling points. It's same deal with Yu Yu Hakusho and Fist Of The North Star.

The DB's aren't distinct. Wishing devices are very common tropes.

The Dragon Balls themselves are a basic reset button narrative trope. How they integrate into in the plot is fairly unique, though. With regards to how often they are used to not only kick start a plot, but are used to resolve the plot for 90% of the time and even being the catalyst to the cast developing such a casual attitude to death.

That they are used as a narrative reset without consequence is not a good thing. That's a good reason to start a new series from scratch.

[Mister_Popo]

There is a difference, I think, between what some would like here in Kanzenshuu and what the marketers / general public would like. Some of us may want to move away from typical tropes, even go beyond the typical characters and experiment more. Seeing how little animated stuff is currently being released, I doubt the spin-offs are right around the corner. If we get animated something that is not Heroes, it will be with the known characters, the Dragon Balls and the necessary martial arts. What I do see happen: focusing a film more on one of the very popular characters that's not Goku. For example: a film that focuses very hard on Vegeta, and where Goku may only appear in the final battle. I would really appreciate that myself. But that's not actually the same as a spin-off.

I used to think that a prequel to DB without the typical known characters would be successful (for example: in Yamoshi time). Although yes i personally would like it. But i now doubt if it would be successful, with Star Wars you can experiment, because that is a world that goes beyond just the well-known characters from the Skywalker trilogy. And it's already established that way by the fans. Dragon Ball is too attached to its main characters through the eyes of the big crowd of fans, I think the marketers have something of 'never change a winning team'. We're going to stick with Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza, Broly, Beerus, Whis ... I think when we talk about new content. And yes, with new power-ups and transformations as well.

[Lord Beerus]

That they are used as a narrative reset without consequence is not a good thing. That's a good reason to start a new series from scratch.

Yeah, I know. Toriyama kinda wrote himself into a corner with that one. A possible solution to that would be to reduce the amount of sets of Dragon Balls from two (or three if you count Super), to one. The Earth Dragon Balls, despite their power, still have limits.

If you take Super into account, you can alternatively have the Super Dragon Balls as the only set in the story, given that not only can they only grant one wish, they are scattered across different universes, and you literally cannot make a wish without a God helping you as you need to speak the wish in the divine language for it to be granted. And even then, just finding the Super Dragon Balls takes a hell of a lot effort and time. It took Champa decades just to find six of the seven Dragon Balls.

[ABED]

Star Wars started off live action which means you have to deal with actors and whether they want to keep going, as well as issues of aging and schedules. None of that is nearly as big a factor with animated series. Hell, DB was originally a manga so none of that applies. To keep going they don't have to move beyond the original core characters.

The thing is, the point is made. There's no reason to keep going with a new cast.

[Lord Beerus]

Star Wars started off live action which means you have to deal with actors and whether they want to keep going, as well as issues of aging and schedules. None of that is nearly as big a factor with animated series. Hell, DB was originally a manga so none of that applies. To keep going they don't have to move beyond the original core characters.

The thing is, the point is made. There's no reason to keep going with a new cast.

And moving on from the core characters is not necessarily a bad thing if, and that's a big if, the next group of core characters can be developed well enough and have interesting enough battles to compliment their character. There's no guarantee to this being a success, I just want someone to try. If it doesn't work, and the sequel itself fails, then the fandom will treat it as any other Dragon Ball product that they found unsatisfactory: they'll act as if it never existed and fall back on the dozens of volumes of the manga, several films and TV specials and truck loads of video games, to scratch their itch. Hell, even in the case of going beyond the original manga or after the end of the Majin Boo arc, they have Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball Super to fall back. So all the bases are covered. No harm, no foul.

[MyVisionity]

Star Wars started off live action which means you have to deal with actors and whether they want to keep going, as well as issues of aging and schedules. None of that is nearly as big a factor with animated series. Hell, DB was originally a manga so none of that applies. To keep going they don't have to move beyond the original core characters.

The thing is, the point is made. There's no reason to keep going with a new cast.

So then you're admitting that in cases outside of manga/anime, it's more appropriate to move on with a new cast? That the circumstances of a live-action series or a traditional American comic book allow for the lead characters to be replaced and go on? Does "lightning in a bottle" only apply to Dragon Ball?

[UpFromTheSkies]

Goku and the dragon balls have become too powerful for the story to progress with any real sense of danger or adventure, so I would de-power the dragon balls to only grant wishes every 5-10 years or maybe get rid of them all together, and then I would have Goku and Vegeta lose the ability to teleport so they would be forced to stay behind as protection for Earth while the rest of the cast would go off on Galactic Patrol missions. I might have an insanely powerful villain appear on Earth once in a while so Goku and Vegeta could battle them, but for the most part I would have them act as Hokage type characters that would stay on Earth to keep it protected.

[ABED]

Star Wars started off live action which means you have to deal with actors and whether they want to keep going, as well as issues of aging and schedules. None of that is nearly as big a factor with animated series. Hell, DB was originally a manga so none of that applies. To keep going they don't have to move beyond the original core characters.

The thing is, the point is made. There's no reason to keep going with a new cast.

So then you're admitting that in cases outside of manga/anime, it's more appropriate to move on with a new cast? That the circumstances of a live-action series or a traditional American comic book allow for the lead characters to be replaced and go on? Does "lightning in a bottle" only apply to Dragon Ball?

Generally speaking, I do think it's more appropriate but by the same token the franchise will never be as good or as special as the original spark. Lightning in a bottle still applies to franchises like Star Wars. After a certain point, if you want for a franchise to keep going, you have to be fine with it just being okay.

And moving on from the core characters is not necessarily a bad thing if, and that's a big if, the next group of core characters can be developed well enough and have interesting enough battles to compliment their character. There's no guarantee to this being a success, I just want someone to try. If it doesn't work, and the sequel itself fails, then the fandom will treat it as any other Dragon Ball product that they found unsatisfactory: they'll act as it never existed and fall back on the dozens of volumes of the manga, several films and TV specials and truck loads of video games, to scratch their itch. Hell, even in the case of going beyond the original manga or after the end of the Majin Boo arc, they have Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball Super to fall back. So all the bases are covered. No harm, no foul.

While I can only speak for myself, there may be no harm in it, but I do think people's creative energies would be better spent doing something original. Even with a good writer, further stories don't have the same sense of specialness or like the world is wide open.