Your ideal Dragon Ball sequel.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Because it just isn't. It's like saying McDonalds is the best food in the world.

I respect Dragon Ball isn't your favourite manga/anime series but if your regularly posting on a forum dedicated to it, comparing it to bottom of the barrel garbage food like McDonalds is a bit harsh.

It's not always about how many different series one has seen. Art is subjective at the end of the day, and for many people Dragon Ball has been the most inspirational anime because of how the characters resonate with them. I can understand why you'd think Evangelion is better for example, but I've seen Evangelion and still value Dragon Ball much more because of how the characters and Toriyama's storytelling impacted me, although I respect why others may feel the same about Eva.

[Lord Beerus]

I respect Dragon Ball isn't your favourite manga/anime series but if your regularly posting on a forum dedicated to it, comparing it to bottom of the barrel garbage food like McDonalds is a bit harsh.

Okay, maybe that was a bit harsh. Let's say its like saying Burger King serves the best burgers in the world.

Logan meant that the kids who already had OP would still own OP.

Oh, my apologies. I misconstrued the statement.

People don't emotionally invest in concepts. That would have lasted a few years at most. People invested in those characters. Hell, as dumb as Power Rangers is, the audience invested in those characters as well.

I'm not saying people get emotionally invested in concept. The investment is superficial. They see something on it's surface as being incredibly cool and they want it.

You're condescending remarks imply you look down on it things you deem mindless and soulless, but Dragon Ball is mostly mindless fun.

I said mindless and soulless. Dragon Ball, at least with the original manga, sure ain't soulless, and the mindless aspect of was at least birthed from mangaka who knew how to find charm in a simple and mindless narrative.

Imagery alone won't sustain for generations.

American comic books disagree.

Yet the need for TV series tells me otherwise. A cool design alone isn't enough.

All TV series tells you to do is buy the goddamn toys. And considering the TV shows range from tolerably half-decent (for a few episodes) to terrible and the live action movies range bland to mind-numbingly abysmal, and the franchise STILL rakes in billions of dollars from selling toys, it's safe to say that it doesn't matter how well written the media for the franchise is. Hasbro just need to make sure that media has cool looking toys to advertise.

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama Akira tries to play the "too cool for school" card a lot with his sort of 'meaningless' writing style and while that sort of thing is also important I could never even begin to compare it to a work like Shin Seiki Evangelion. Anno Hide'aki is clearly falling a part, constantly changing the story at the last second due to his depression-inspired new ideas, so much so that in the last six episodes the series simply have nearly no new drawings used and the episodes are being made in two weeks. It's a masterpiece of untold personal anguish and meaning that forces the viewer to confront the pieces of themselves they see in the main characters. Dragon Ball is a fleeting whisper in the wind that I can go years without re-visiting. With Shin Seiki Evangelion and The End of Evangelion I watched those works six times* between 2016-2017 and only recently finished my eighth while starting my ninth viewing. These are engrossing, hypnotically produced works.


*Yes, I'm not bullshitting.

[ABED]

American comic books disagree.

You love that phrase "[x] would disagree..." and like every time you've used it, you are wrong. People invested in those stories. Readers love those characters, sometimes to an unhealthy degree.

All TV series tells you to do is buy the goddamn toys.

A damn 60 second commercial can tell you that. It also wouldn't require how many hours of writing, designing, and animating to get it done. Kids don't want toys to shows and characters they don't like. I never said the shows were well written, just that the audience grew emotionally attached to the stories. I'm emotionally attached to Dragon Ball even though it is hardly the best written story. For decades licensing is where the real money is but you still need a story people enjoy to sell the toys.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball is made for commercial reasons. That's the inception of the project! Luckily, a project isn't just it's inception and it never stops taking on new meaning the older it grows.

[ABED]

The meaning you are referring to comes from the audience, but Toriyama wrote it to make money. He injected it with his sensibilities and interests but was a manga artist because he enjoyed it and it was a skill he was good enough to make money at. Making art for commercial purposes is not a bad thing. Need I remind you all that Shakespeare wrote for money?

[Matches Malone]

How much of a small reference pool of anime you must have if Dragon Ball Z serves as the frontier example for a genre that has lasted over 50 fucking years and produced thousands of different TV shows, OVA's and movies.

Someone who's seen more than you can use the same logic against you when you mention your favorite show. The problem with trying to define what the best show is in a genre that's been around for half a century, is that no one has seen everything it has to offer. You saying One Piece (for example) is the best show, while I say DB is the best show, while someone else says Naruto is the best show, holds no weight because non of us have seen everything to make that kind of judgement. Even if by any chance we did see everything, art is so subjective that there's no way to come to a correct answer.

If Dragon Ball Z is considered the greatest anime ever to someone, I will immediately question how much anime they've watched.

It's not just about the quality of a show, it's about when people get into it, where they are in life when they get into it, how old they are, etc. I may not have seen a truck load of anime, but I know my taste well enough to say that Toriyama's original story is my favorite anime. I know people who've seen hundreds of anime that consider Naruto to be their favorite. Does that mean they're objectively the best anime ? no, but what is in such a massive genre. It's like trying to decide what's the best comedy movie, or what's the best horror movie.

Art is subjective at the end of the day, and for many people Dragon Ball has been the most inspirational anime because of how the characters resonate with them.

This is exactly why Toriyama's original work is my favorite. No matter how many anime I see, which isn't many I'll admit, Goku and his friends are such great characters that I've yet to see a group that connects with me more. Are they objectively the best ? No, but who is in a genre that has thousands of characters.

[ABED]

Art is too interesting and important to turn it into a list. Who cares what's the "best"?

The things that interest me are issues like why DB has been such a massive hit. What works? What doesn't? Is there anywhere else to go with the characters? Would a spin off without any of the characters we care about work with audiences? Would attaching the DB brand to such an idea make audiences more or less likely to watch it? What about continuing to watch it?

[Matches Malone]

Art is too interesting and important to turn it into a list. Who cares what's the "best"?

It's also too long. Someone can say they know what's best because they've seen 50 anime, but what about someone who's seen 70 ? or 100 ? That's the problem I have with people looking down at others for what their favorite thing is, because chances are, someone else looks down at them for thinking (insert here) is their favorite. Don't tell me that I haven't seen enough if DB is my favorite show, because chances are someone else can say the exact same to you.

[ABED]

We're also different and bring with us different experiences. Even if we both enjoy something, it's likely to hit us differently based on our experiences. I haven't seen Pen15, but let's assume I do and enjoy it, it likely won't land as hard for me because I was never an adolescent girl.

[JulieYBM]

I wouldn't call Dragon Ball Z 'the best' television series of all time--I reserve that for Shin Seiki Evangelion--but who cares? Like what you like, share what you like with friends, don't go to bat for it like you're a producer whose job is to sell a product.

[Lord Beerus]

You love that phrase "[x] would disagree..." and like every time you've used it, you are wrong. People invested in those stories. Readers love those characters, sometimes to an unhealthy degree.

Many readers know the Archie Comics only for the beautiful girls drawn by Dan De Carlo, especially Betty and Veronica. There is a reason why they appear so often in bikinis and other skimpy outfits.

A damn 60 second commercial can tell you that. It also wouldn't require how many hours of writing, designing, and animating to get it done. Kids don't want toys to shows and characters they don't like. I never said the shows were well written, just that the audience grew emotionally attached to the stories. I'm emotionally attached to Dragon Ball even though it is hardly the best written story. For decades licensing is where the real money is but you still need a story people enjoy to sell the toys.

Kids wants toys that look cool, because Hasbro knows that kids can be easily impressed in a superficial sense. It doesn't matter if the story makes no sense or if the characters are incredibly paper thin, just make sure the robots look impressive. And there are many Transformers TV shows that know this and exploit that. They don't to tell you outright to buy to toys, as much as the TV show constantly have the characters go through visual "upgrades".

[ABED]

You love that phrase "[x] would disagree..." and like every time you've used it, you are wrong. People invested in those stories. Readers love those characters, sometimes to an unhealthy degree.

Many readers know the Archie Comics only for the beautiful girls drawn by Dan De Carlo, especially Betty and Veronica. There is a reason why they appear so often in bikinis and other skimpy outfits.

A damn 60 second commercial can tell you that. It also wouldn't require how many hours of writing, designing, and animating to get it done. Kids don't want toys to shows and characters they don't like. I never said the shows were well written, just that the audience grew emotionally attached to the stories. I'm emotionally attached to Dragon Ball even though it is hardly the best written story. For decades licensing is where the real money is but you still need a story people enjoy to sell the toys.

Kids wants toys that look cool, because Hasbro knows that kids can be easily impressed in a superficial sense. It doesn't matter if the story makes no sense or if the characters are incredibly paper thin, just make sure the robots look impressive. And there are many Transformers TV shows that know this and exploit that. They don't to tell you outright to buy to toys, as much as the TV show constantly have the characters go through visual "upgrades".

You're wrong. I remember being a kid and why I bought toys. Try some introspection for the love of god. No, it doesn't matter if the story is great or the characters are multidimensional. I never claimed it was. I said people emotionally invested in the characters which is not the same thing. Transformers had to bring back OP because kids loved the character and didn't take to the new line of toys. Hell, even Power Rangers had to bring a character back after the Sentai footage ran out because kids were sad he was gone. It's not enough to look cool.

People bitched and moaned and put up a damn fuss when Hal Jordan was turned into a villain and actively hated Kyle Raynor. Hal's Emerald Attack Team - look it up.

And your big rebuttal is f'n Archie Comics? Even then, it's far more likely that the reason it's sold millions of copies over the years is because fans love the characters and the love triangle.

[goku the krump dancer]

Jason Todd is also a prime example of how its not just a moniker, or aesthetics that draw people in.

[Lord Beerus]

You're wrong. I remember being a kid and why I bought toys. Try some introspection for the love of god. No, it doesn't matter if the story is great or the characters are multidimensional. I never claimed it was. I said people emotionally invested in the characters which is not the same thing. Transformers had to bring back OP because kids loved the character and didn't take to the new line of toys. Hell, even Power Rangers had to bring a character back after the Sentai footage ran out because kids were sad he was gone. It's not enough to look cool.

And if the fans are willing to disregard the quality of the stories, then what is there to care about the character in the story beyond their superficial appearance? And this just proves my point. If fans couldn't given two shit about what the story is, then the attachment becomes superficial. It's less of case of wanting the see the character grow and develop and more of case of just wanting to see the character on screen who from your point looks the coolest. It's no longer a case of what character is, or even what he does, it's just the fulfilment of having your favourite looking avatar on the screen.

And your big rebuttal is f'n Archie Comics? Even then, it's far more likely that the reason it's sold millions of copies over the years is because fans love the characters and the love triangle.

It can't be denied that the "suggestive" ways that Betty and Veronica were drawn didn't bring in more readers. Especially considering how misogynistic the comics were back in the day.

[ABED]

I never denied sex sells but that's not the only reason.

And if the fans are willing to disregard the quality of the stories, then what is there to care about the character in the story beyond their superficial appearance?

Here's a fact about kids - their taste isn't that discerning. I remember being excited every morning to see characters I enjoyed fight evil monsters and wondering how my heroes would win during multiparters. It's not about development either. It's about spending time with "friends" essentially. So thanks so much for telling me why I liked the things I did.

You haven't proven your point at all. Fans do care about the story. They may not be the best judges of quality but they still get emotionally invested in stories. It's like you overthink this and don't remember what it was like being a kid.

If all it were was the aesthetics, there'd be no need for a damn TV series. There are cheaper ways to advertise.

[Lord Beerus]

I never denied sex sells but that's not the only reason.

I never said it was only reason either. I just said many people were drawn into the comic by the constant sexualisation of Betty and Veronica.

Here's a fact about kids - their taste isn't that discerning. I remember being excited every morning to see characters I enjoyed fight evil monsters and wondering how my heroes would win during multiparters. It's not about development either. It's about spending time with "friends" essentially. So thanks so much for telling me why I liked the things I did.

You haven't proven your point at all. Fans do care about the story. They may not be the best judges of quality but they still get emotionally invested in stories.

If all it were was the aesthetics, there'd be no need for a damn TV series.

The TV show exists so that the aesthetic can reach as audience as wide as possible. Why bother with a 30-60 second commercial when you can have a 22 minutes commercial or a 85 minute commercial?

The Transformers fandom itself knows when it comes to the TV shows, comics and live action movies, they are watching a glorified toy commercial... and they embrace that because they know not to take it seriously.

[JulieYBM]

It's possible to be intellectually fulfilled by a cute girl with giant bazoongas at the same time one is masturbating to them. This is how Japanese cartoons have been operating since forever. Although, I'm not really sure I'd say Betty and Veronica are hot...

[MyVisionity]

Art is too interesting and important to turn it into a list. Who cares what's the "best"?

The things that interest me are issues like why DB has been such a massive hit. What works? What doesn't? Is there anywhere else to go with the characters? Would a spin off without any of the characters we care about work with audiences? Would attaching the DB brand to such an idea make audiences more or less likely to watch it? What about continuing to watch it?

I still can't call these things "art".

But I don't see anything wrong with rating different series. In fact, that's probably how you begin to answer some of those questions that interest you. By figuring out which series is better or worse and understanding the reasons for its quality. Then apply that to DB.

It's also too long. Someone can say they know what's best because they've seen 50 anime, but what about someone who's seen 70 ? or 100 ? That's the problem I have with people looking down at others for what their favorite thing is, because chances are, someone else looks down at them for thinking (insert here) is their favorite. Don't tell me that I haven't seen enough if DB is my favorite show, because chances are someone else can say the exact same to you.

I think it's important to distinguish "favorite" from "best". Someone liking or disliking a series isn't necessarily related to its overall quality.

And while one may not be able to declare one series the "best", you can rank a series as being better than others. Especially if, like you say, someone has watched a larger number of series than another.

[ABED]

I never denied sex sells but that's not the only reason.

I never said it was only reason either. I just said many people were drawn into the comic by the constant sexualisation of Betty and Veronica.

Here's a fact about kids - their taste isn't that discerning. I remember being excited every morning to see characters I enjoyed fight evil monsters and wondering how my heroes would win during multiparters. It's not about development either. It's about spending time with "friends" essentially. So thanks so much for telling me why I liked the things I did.

You haven't proven your point at all. Fans do care about the story. They may not be the best judges of quality but they still get emotionally invested in stories.

If all it were was the aesthetics, there'd be no need for a damn TV series.

The TV show exists so that the aesthetic can reach as audience as wide as possible. Why bother with a 30-60 second commercial when you can have a 22 minutes commercial or a 85 minute commercial?

The Transformers fandom itself knows when it comes to the TV shows, comics and live action movies, they are watching a glorified toy commercial... and they embrace that because they know not to take it seriously.

"Many" is vague and unhelpful.

Why bother with the expense and time and effort when you can just put the commerical on several times a day instead of one single timeslot.

People can still invest in a story regardless of the reason the story was created.

Before the toys were turned into TV shows, they still had tie in stories that either came in the form of comics or little blurbs on the back of the box because people want to know the story. Who's the good guy and the bad guy? Why go through any of that if it was just about appearane?

I still can't call these things "art".

What's your basis for that statement?

But I don't see anything wrong with rating different series. In fact, that's probably how you begin to answer some of those questions that interest you. By figuring out which series is better or worse and understanding the reasons for its quality. Then apply that to DB.

I don't see how. None of the questions are issues of comparison