SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings?

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SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings?

Post by Aim » Mon May 18, 2020 7:42 am

DRAGON BALL

The franchise that isn't given the luxury it deserves.

Almost 30 years and it seems the progress that has been made with Dragon Ball as a whole is minimal. One can argue that the dub as a whole has been a near perfect representation of the original Japanese, or even subjectively argue the dub surpasses the Japanese. Though, I can't help but feel uncomfortable every time I have to listen to something dub related to Dragon Ball, even quotes from the now more accurate English dub make me feel extremely dissatisfied.

I come here today to ask if anyone knows, why does Dragon Ball STILL get given this god awful treatment, and I say god awful because in my opinion all it takes is a change of a few words in dialogue to rearrange the dynamic of the story and characters. This is god awful because it happens to a franchise I've known ever since I can remember, Son Goku as well as other things in this franchise have spoken to me in more ways than I can express, and the way it's spoken to me has changed over time as I grew up with the English Dub and eventually moved to the original source, and it's hit a part of me deeply, so much it's hard to explain.

DUB-ISMS

A while back I stumbled across a video of Kai where Piccolo uses the correct name for the Makankosappo, and you guessed it, it was Makankosappo. I even found one where Kuririn said Kienzan instead of Destructo Disk, but for some reason, most if not all original names were thrown out as the show carried on. If anyone knows why this is, please let me know. Were they forced to do this? If I'm not wrong, Sabat and others are in charge for the most part of dubbing Dragon Ball, and are no longer under the tyranny of a stubborn business man.

Some people say that the original names sound weird, I don't know Japanese very well, but I don't think Makankosappo is an actual word in Japanese but it's a play(?) on words or an arrangement? Don't quote me on that, if someone could fill me in that would be great. Anyway, even if it does sound weird it's still a foreign word that's coming from the mouth of a then established 'Demon', and either "Demon Light of Death" works for me, as in Viz, since that seems the closest to a literal translation without sounding silly, or even Makankosoppo, which sounds demonic in itself.

Kienzan, 'KI', what they only call 'energy' in the dub, sounds fine if the cast actually said 'ki' instead of energy. Or Energy Cut. I prefer Kienzan, it doesn't sound demonic, it sounds more spiritual, like ki. Not hard to pick up, especially if the characters are already using ki to describe energy.

Ki-Ko-Ho is another one that I feel shouldn't have been changed, if the series already establishes the use of the word 'Ki' as energy (as most people will pick up), then Ki-Ko-Ho sounds fine and to be honest, cooler. Tien strikes me as a strange character that's interesting during early Dragon Ball, and it fits to have him use the original Japanese names, it just makes him all that more mysterious.

Son Goku, now for some reason pronounced SUN Goku. This drives me up the fucking wall for some reason. Okay, I get it, Sun Wukong, the character Son Goku is loosely based on, though why is it that before it was referred 'properly' to Son Goku and now Sun Goku? Not only that, but thanks to a correction by linkdude20002001, I found out Sun Wukong is actually pronounced "Soon"(Sun) Wukong. If they think this is what being accurate is, then why is everything so inconsistent? Son Goku isn't Sun Goku anyway. Speaking of which, why is it that Goku is still not referred to as Son Goku? Because it isn't American enough? How would Son Goku not be appropriate for Western TV? It wouldn't. This whole shit about American audiences being too dumb to understand...I don't buy it.

Genki-dama, I prefer Genki-dama or Spirit Sphere, at least those terms stay in line with what the Genki-dama is. Anyone know where Spirit Bomb came from? Spirit Bomb sounds like more of an aggressive name, and it isn't a bomb. I heard an argument that the West wouldn't understand what Genki is, which my question is to anyone that knows, does the majority of Japanese youth know what Genki is? I mean, Masenko is still used, so why not keep Genki-dama?

Kafla, I'm not going to lie, I only recently found this out, thanks VegettoEX for clearing this up. Kafla is the proper way of saying "Kefura" in Japanese. It hasn't been corrected in the dub and I assume it won't be, unfortunately. For anyone that doesn't know, Kale + Caulifla = Kafla [KAY-FLA], why not 'Kefla'? Because Kefla is just plain wrong, it goes against the puns naming sense. Kale is Keru in Japanese, and Caulifla is Karifura, so the two names join together make "Kefura" ((Ke)ru + Kari(fura)). In English it should be the same, Kale + Caulifla = Kafla ((Ka)le + Cauli(fla)). There's people who call others a "purist" for wanting this to be corrected, which is fair enough, but then you can argue that Dragon Ball should be completely changed from the names down to the story lines to fit "American audiences", you're disrespecting a franchise you claim to love by saying there's nothing wrong with mistranslations and that there's nothing wrong with "Americanizing" the show, changing music, etc. Reality is, growing up with Dragon Ball the way it should be seen, you wouldn't know any better, and the majority will agree that it would be so much better to see the show how it should be seen compared to what it currently is or was.

Arcosian, I take back what I said, this is the term that annoys me the most, people in this fandom need to learn when to drop this shit, because Freezer has never been referred to as an Arcosian, and was only in the dub. I know it sounds like I'm going on a tangent, but this is getting frustrating because when I discuss Dragon Ball with people, they always end up correcting me on things that aren't right, and while I'm fine with that, it just makes it hard to have a decent discussion about Dragon Ball when the Dragon Ball I know and prefer is different from the one they like.

Saiyan, some basic English will tell you Saiyan is pronounced "Sigh-yan", not "Say-yan". I do take issue with this, because it's plain wrong, people say you can say either because both are right, which is far from the truth, and it needs to stop being said cough* geekdom101 :3*. Why is it wrong? Can't Saiyan be said "Say-an" since "Ai" can be a long "A" sound in English? No, it's derived from a pun in Japanese, Yasai, not "Yasay", it's Saiyan, not Sayan. Not to mention it's quite embarrassing it's pronounced wrong yet it's still spelled properly.

Dragon Ball Super hasn't impressed me, in fact it's by far the most insulting, for numerous reasons. They've kept the ancient naming senses, they've taken more liberty for Dragon Ball Super to make it their own, as stated by Christopher Sabat himself (If anyone has the video from Kamehacon or whatever place it was, please link it). What I mean is they've actually misrepresented certain characters in the story, as well as added pointless dialogue to sound more "professional", because more is better, right? Dragon Ball Super has numerous line changes that sound very awkward and unusually fast pasted in an attempt to sound "professional", there's also a habit of using very sophisticated "big" words that serve no point and don't make sense when used by characters like Vegeta or Son.

Here are a few examples of inappropriate dialogue in no particular order;

(Please note these aren't all the subtitles from Toei, Ajay brought up in another thread that I shouldn't use ancient fan subs, though I have checked back on Crunchyroll and the fan subs I've found are more or less the same as the official subs without changing any of the context or meaning behind the dialogue)

JAP: "Now then, time to get to work"

ENG: "Now then, it's time for me to make the donuts"

[Why this is a problem: There's no need for a change of line here, even if it's minute, it's just unnecessary.]

JAP: "Son Goku..."

ENG: "Wait a minute, what are you doing Goku?"

[Why this is a problem: Hit by now shouldn't be startled at some of the things Son Goku does, not as emphasized at least.]

JAP: "I ain't helpin' you. Seeing them gang up on you like that, my body starts itching. Let's fight!"

ENG: "That's good because I didn't come here for that. I saw those guys had you backed into a corner. And you know it made me itch for a
fight too. I say we fight them together."


[Why this is a problem: Son's hick is nonexistent, and he contradicts himself saying he's not helping Hit, while essentially saying he's going to help Hit.]

JAP: "You bastard..!"

ENG: "You killed her!"

[Why this is a problem: Another unnecessary change, why is it they add "bastard" and other cuss words where they aren't needed, yet miss the chance to add it here where it's actually completely accurate to the original?]

JAP: "Finally. It's the day you'll take your final breath... Saiyan."

ENG: "It's about time Sayan. You've been running around making messes for too long and now I'm going to choke the life from you,
I cant wait to watch you die."


[Why this is a problem: Way too long, taking away elements from Goku Black's slow and softly spoken malicious first impression.]

JAP: "You do look just like me!"

ENG: "Man this is freaky, it's like I'm looking in a mirror!"

[Why this is a problem: It isn't really too bad, the main problem would be the delivery of the line, Son's childish attitude towards Black is nullified in the ENG.]

JAP: "Nice to meet you, Son Goku/Good day, Son Goku."

ENG: "How are you Goku? You're looking quite well."

[Why this is a problem: Delivery isn't near as creepy or sinister as it should be, it's too fast paced, it's too loud. It sounds like a generic 'bad guy' from Western shows.]

JAP: "....Hmph."

ENG: "Hehe HaHa!"

[Why this is a problem: Again, takes from his creepiness and mysteriousness, generic bad guy snickering instead of a malicious "Hmph".]

JAP: "I don't know what sorta person you are, but...I heard you're strong. So take me on."

ENG: "Hmph, I can't begin to guess who or what you actually are, but oh well. Trunks down there tells me you're strong. Why don't you show me?"

[Why this is a problem: Son displays cockiness here rather than his immature habit of approaching people and asking them to fight with him, he also sounds off in his dialogue, too much being said. For some reason Son is taking "hmph" lines from Vegeta more and more, this really adds a layer of arrogance that really puts me off.]

JAP: "It's an honor. I always wanted to fight you in this body."

ENG: "That would be an honor. Truth be told, Goku, I've often wondered what it would be like to fight against you in this body."

[Why this is a problem: It's not as bad as others we've seen, but the tone is off from Nozawa's delivery, thus the loss of creepiness and mysteriousness.]

JAP: "There's no need for you to understand that."

ENG: "The answer to that is not something you need to know."

[Why this is a problem: Expression in voice is too emphasized and very obnoxious. I feel it's also unnecessary for the line to be changed up in the way it was.]

JAP: "Hmph. I'm happy. You're evaluating me against you./I'm pleased to have you value my worth."

ENG: "Ha ha ha! This really is a pleasure, Goku, having you of all people seeing and rating my power."

[Why this is a problem: The laugh is unnecessary, doesn't fit the moment or Black's character, the dialogue is too long.]

JAP: "Super Saiyan, huh?

ENG: Jumping to Super Sayan are we?

[Why this is a problem: There is often an excuse brought up for line changes, and that is that the dialogue needs to match the mouth flaps, in which that's understandable, however, this line sounds stuffed in, awkward, and it isn't needed.]

JAP: "Now it's my turn!"

ENG: "It's my turn to show off!"

[Why this is a problem: Again, a small change that with the wrong delivery and dialogue, makes Son sound arrogant, taking away from what he is and represents in the original source.]

JAP: "What?/Unbelievable." 13:11

ENG: "Are you sure?"

[Why this is a problem: Honestly it's nothing that bad at all, if we're going to be nit picky here, I guess "Unbelievable" would be the ideal choice.]

JAP: "What? Was I wrong?" 13:13

ENG: "Well no, it's just a guess..."

[Why this is a problem: It's hard to explain, there's something different when Goku asks if he's wrong when everyone goes silent, as opposed to him just outright stating he's guessing, again, I don't understand why these changes are there when they aren't needed, if you can stick to the original script, STICK. TO. IT.]

JAP: "Honestly... How can you be happy at this? There's a bad guy with the same strength as you!" 13:28

ENG: "This is no time for a victory lap! There's a bad guy out there with the same strength as you and we don't know how to stop him!"

[Why this is a problem: This is another problem with the English Dub, there are times where lines are just way to over the top and completely different from the original source, it's incredibly obnoxious to listen to, Bulma is feisty, she always has been, but this constant over the top attitude she expresses in the English makes her incredibly annoying.]

JAP: "Turn around." 19:29

ENG: "Turn around and face me."

[Why this is a problem: I think a simple "Turn around." is enough.]

JAP: "You're not gonna kill me from behind?" 19:31

ENG: "So you can't kill me with my back to you, huh?"

[Why this is a problem: This doesn't need to be changed, it just doesn't. Goku comes across cocky when in reality all he's meant to say is "You're not gonna kill me from behind?".]

JAP: "By having their backs taken easily, people accept that they're going to die. That's why I stand behind them." 19:34

ENG: "Normally I don't mind sneaking up on my prey, it makes it easier on them they have less time to be afraid."

[Why this is a problem: Hit's character is an assassin, yet not barbaric, yet not quite sympathetic, it really fits for Hit character in the way he words that sentence; "people accept that they're going to die". This could have easily been implemented in the English, yet wasn't.

JAP: "My attack is a single strike from the front. That's my rule." 19:42

ENG: "But you're different, I've decided my single strike to you will be head on."

[Why this is a problem: Hit makes it clear that Son doesn't get any special treatment except for that one chance to disappear. This is changed to Hit giving a speech how Son's different for whatever reason so he breaks his routine to kill him head on.]

JAP: "A single strike." 19:47

ENG: "A single strike? Hmph!"

[Why this is a problem: Son Goku's cockiness is unbelievably disrespectful for a number of reasons, he's essentially having some key attributes of his character rewritten for some reason, my guess is to 'Americanize' the show a bit to fit the audience, which makes no sense logically.]

JAP: "Kaioken..!"

ENG: "Now I'll show you the Kaioken!"

[Why this is a problem: I feel like a broken record, this isn't necessary. The original line was a great moment, and they did it really well in Xenoverse 2, yet changed it, it fits the mouth flaps, there's no excuse.]

I could go on and on but I thought I'd finish it here. Now you may be wondering, "But there's nothing wrong with the changes! The dub is better than ATTATATATATATA old lady", which to that I have to say:

Firstly, there is something wrong with the changes, let me explain. Characters like Hit and Son are changed not only in the way they're presented, but in the way they talk, and the way their values are held retrospective to their character.

Some of Hit's dialogues are extended, which only takes from his mysterious and cool personality. Like the dialogue I mentioned in the TOP, simple lines like, "Son Goku.." are extended to "Goku, what are you doing!?", the dub takes a lot away from Hit's personality of being somewhat collected even in times of crisis. After all Hit has been through with Son, it shouldn't even be startling him at this point.

Son Goku in the dub is also changed somewhat, for some reason Goku's 'hick talk' or dialect, is almost none existent. My guess is the majority of the western fan base hasn't seen Dragon Ball from the beginning, so for some reason that's a good excuse to leave out that kind of uneducated talk from Goku. Goku just isn't the same character in the dub, he comes off as way to cocky, and extremely 'over masculine', basically, a true "Americanised" version of the character.

"A single strike? Hmph!", was a line in the dub, the original being "A single strike..?", dub Son comes across as overly cocky, way too sure of himself, I'd argue his character at times mimics Vegeta's, while in the Japanese, Son's line is more so him acknowledging what Hit said and thinking about it. Dub Son also has a habit of wanting to "show off", the dialogue list has the Japanese line as "Now it's my turn!", Son wanting to have a crack at Black after being blasted into a mountain, something totally in Son's character, while the dub changes it to "Now it's my turn to show off!", not only the dialogue, but the tone comes off as extremely arrogant, NOT Son Goku.

Son Goku's childish, yet oblivious attitude is not translated well in the dub, in my opinion, this is because Son's character is changed to someone who's way too over confident and "hyper masculine". Essentially what FUNimation thinks Son Goku needs to be in order to appeal to not only new fans, but the older generation as well as hormonal teenage boys who need a Superman that wears a gi and has an enormous, over the top, "manly" scream that's usually drowned in effects. A truly Americanised, better version of Dragon Ball, Goku is all MALE, as all things should be.../s if you couldn't tell.

Android 17's dialogue and delivery in somewhat crucial scenes are altered. If you need more comparisons, this may be a video you'd be willing to check out.

I did summaries in the dialogue list why some lines don't fit/aren't delivered properly, if you still need an explanation then go back to the summaries under each line. If you're struggling to see where I'm getting at, we can have a discussion in the comments.

If you listen carefully, you'll hear a difference in Masako Nozawa's tone of voice compared to Sean Schemmel, Nozawa's tone is a lot more playful with Son Goku, yet serious when Son needs to be, dub Son is, while still playful at times, way too hyper masculine.

Looking at the Goku Black arc, as well as the previous and following arcs, the dialogue is stretched out to the point where it sounds almost like they're rushing their lines. Kind of like the Big Green Dub, but a lot more professional obviously. If you're too lazy to search up comparisons then I'll link a few here, here, and here. Some really noticeable changes are the way they over filter screams, the way they make changes to Black's personality by extending his lines from something like "Super Saiyan, huh?" to "Going Super Saiyan now are we?", not only that, but Masako Nozawa's voice acting during those scenes were very quiet, polite, and sinister, the opposite of Son Goku, whereas Sean Schemmel was an overly aggressive, generic sounding villain, it simply was off point. Look at comparisons between Goku Black and Goku's fight along with the transformation scenes, and you'll see what I mean. Son Goku in the dub is arguably a lot more cocky than the Japanese counterpart, I'd go as far as to say he's got toxic masculinity, which is something Son Goku shouldn't have, but apparently all the males in America can't stand Goku not being your average generic superhero who needs to have his screams filtered and have stupid shit added in to the script.

Goku Black's sophistication is lost as well when he transforms into Super Saiyan Rosé, instead of asking the others how beautiful his form was, in the dub he goes with just a simple "Quite the color, huh?". These all may seem very small but all it takes is one minor change to confuse fans, or even modify the personality traits of an individual.

Many people complain about the sounds Goku makes while in the midst of battle, I can see how this can get irritating, especially in Super, however, Son has always had some kind of vocal presence when fighting, like in Martial Art movies. I think that this opinion is mostly built on the fact many people hate the fact Goku is voiced by a woman. If the Japanese Goku is annoying during battle, then the English is awkward as well as annoying, one could make the counter argument he sounds like guy moaning and groaning trying to sound intimidating.

Last thing I want to bring up is how people say Son Goku sounds like an old lady, now I've watched the series in English, I grew up with it, I eventually watched it in Japanese, and I hear a difference in Goku's child voice, and adult voice. Goku really does sound like what he is meant to sound like, and if this means anything, my Grand Mother who is very old fashioned who happens to also like Dragon Ball, sees no problem with Nozawa as Goku's voice, in fact she prefers watching in Japanese. When showing her comparisons she prefered Son Goku's original voice. From what I've seen, a lot of hate the Japanese gets is based on this idea of what Goku is and what he represents, it's been twisted and while there have been efforts to restore it, these efforts are lost because an old generation of fans is what controls the market. Goku is seen to be a hyper masculine "badass" manly man in the west, while in Japan, he's not seen or portrayed that way. In fact, Goku's character is in many ways the complete opposite of those western ideas of what Goku should be.

I don't know if it's just me, but I don't see many people complain about Luffy or Naruto's voices, I think this is because of some of the points that I discussed above, to 'westernize' and/or even to appeal to the older fans, they've over done certain aspects of Goku's character, specifically the traits that can be hyper masculine-ized such as the screams, and dialogue, this in turn makes the character more arrogant and takes from what makes Son Goku's characer.

In conclusion, these "dub-ism's" are to this very day, tainting Dragon Ball. It's been years and we haven't even gotten a proper dub of the original Dragon Ball, as soon as steps are taken forward, about twice as many steps are taken backwards, this isn't a show that needs to be "Americanized", most of these changes are very unnecessary and change aspects of characters personalities. One of the most baffling things is that Kai was a big step up from Z, however, it begins to fall apart, then when we move onto Super, everything comes tumbling back again, with nonsensical line changes, to adding random lines and references that don't need to be there. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, and that's fine, I'd really like to discuss that, but if you're going to dub a show, the most disrespectful thing to do is add unnecessary changes and keep keeping mistranslations.

Aliyoop. :roll:
Last edited by Aim on Sun May 24, 2020 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Robo4900 » Mon May 18, 2020 11:58 am

I'd argue a good number of these are reasonable rewordings.

But yes, Funi's modern dubbing still loads the scripts up with unnecessary changes, they still haven't fixed a bunch of changes that date back to 1996 that they, for some reason, didn't fix in Kai 1.0, and still refuse to fix to this day (or they did briefly fix it, then suddenly went back on it partway through the run)...

People in general are far too forgiving of the Funi dub, arguing "It's not as bad as it used to be!" and other such things, particularly pointing out that Sabat and Schemmel have said things like "We're giving you the purest DBZ experience possible. If you don't like that, then you don't like DBZ" during Kai, which they arguably did stay true to, at least for some of the run.
But, Sabat turned around for Super, and said something to the effect of "Well, people already saw the Japanese version, so we're trying to give people a different experience." when asked why the Super dub scripts have so many changes all over the place. We've basically come to understand that the writers and actors are basically given freedom to do whatever they think might be fun/funny for Super. ("I forgot my tractor" was improvised by Schemmel in an out-take which they decided to use, the mention of HFIL in the Slump episode was added by either the actor or the scriptwriter (or Sabat in the director's chair)... Etc., etc.)
And yet, people still defend this, taking the exact reverse of the "They're better now", instead arguing that the changes are good, or are justified, or whatever else.
Even before Super, we got shit like the TFS scene in TFC... Granted, that ended up getting removed by order of Toei, but I'd argue it's a pretty bad scene as far as showing that Funi have improved goes. They decided to let fan parody artists improvise a continuous stream of memes for a couple of minutes in that episode... What the fuck?... If that had been a one-off in an otherwise very accurate dub, it arguably could be excused... Or if it was just the TFS voices delivering accurate dialogue, it would be fun... And to be honest, I did find it quite funny when I originally saw it... But honsetly, I'm not surprised Toei ordered them to remove the sequence. The thing that does surprise me, though, is that Funi weren't given more oversight after that in staying faithful in their scripts.

To be honest, though, Funi's dubbing is still tolerable, serviceable, watchable... If you can't/won't watch subbed, you're not going to have a completely bastardised experience like you would if you watched their pre-Kai dubs. But there's absolutely no reason why Funi should still be pulling the shit they've been pulling, and it burns me to see people defending this shit. Yes, Funi aren't as bad as they were, and their dub is serviceable now, but they should be better, and it's ridiculous that after 25 years with the franchise, this is the best they can do.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm

Because people don't care. what you're doing is nit-picking nonsense that refuses to consider the cultural differences between regions and the fact that a dub is meant to be an "adaptation" to appeal to an audience that doesn't understand Japanese. It's not that big of a deal, dude.


If you want to watch a 100% accurate "dub"-- just watch the japanese dub. That's why it's there.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by TheBigBoy » Mon May 18, 2020 4:25 pm

Just inject this shit into my veins

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon May 18, 2020 4:41 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm
Because people don't care. what you're doing is nit-picking nonsense that refuses to consider the cultural differences between regions and the fact that a dub is meant to be an "adaptation" to appeal to an audience that doesn't understand Japanese. It's not that big of a deal, dude.


If you want to watch a 100% accurate "dub"-- just watch the japanese dub. That's why it's there.
This, basically.

I can sympathise with some of OP's criticisms but the reason old dub-isms continue to appear is because that's what a large portion of the audience are already familiar with. As much as I prefer the original Japanese terms like Kienzan and Makankosappo, Funimation don't go back to those terms now because they'd probably incur the wrath of their main audiences. A lot of the subtle differences in certain scenes is just a result of the actors trying to distinguish their performances from the originals, which I don't think is a bad thing at all. It's interesting to see how actors take different spins on the same scenes. I mean, really, who actually cares if Schemmel's inflection is a little bit different in one scene compared to Nozawa? Or if they inserted a single word in a sentence? Because that's what a lot of these criticisms seem to boil down to which is beyond nitpicky.

I agree with OP that some of the overall scripting is unnecessarily clunky in places, however.

When it comes to nitpicky stuff like how to pronounce "Saiyan", the maturer thing to do is just turn the other cheek. Other foreign language dubs butcher pronunciations and naming conventions far worse than this which doesn't bother me. The only one I can think of that I really dislike is 'Top' replacing 'Toppo'.
Last edited by LoganForkHands73 on Mon May 18, 2020 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Forte224 » Mon May 18, 2020 4:55 pm

Because people prefer warm nostalgia blankets and memes over actual quality dubbing, translation and localization. That’s all there is to it. FUNimation gets away with it because the bar is low, and it’s low because of ‘90s DBZ “purists” (which is such a strange thing when you think about it) and English dub fanboys that don’t want to give English dub critics any ammunition.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 18, 2020 5:11 pm

Forte224 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 4:55 pm
Because people prefer warm nostalgia blankets and memes over actual quality dubbing, translation and localization. That’s all there is to it. FUNimation gets away with it because the bar is low, and it’s low because of ‘90s DBZ “purists” (which is such a strange thing when you think about it) and English dub fanboys that don’t want to give English dub critics any ammunition.
That's basically what it boils down to, and the people who grew up in that era just can't bring themselves to part with it or listen to reason from those who give honest truths about why the old Z dub was a bastardization of what the series was intended to be. Because that's what the localization decisions the powers that be at FUNi like Barry Watson and others back in the day made based on their own interpretation, which was something done upon their misguided idea of what was cool and hot for the demographic being targeted as the product clearly reflected at the time and still does now. They can't reconcile that it's an obsolete relic from a time when those type of practices were par for the course of back in the late '90s/early 2000's, which barring some exceptions here and there most dub production companies don't even do anymore when producing anime dubs these days. FUNi meanwhile has taken a half step away from a lot of the things they did back in 1999 as shown in more recent stuff like Kai and the more recent DB movies, but at the same time still not fully committed to washing their hands of these type of heavy alterations which were in full effect during their early years as a company. This coming from someone who also watched Z on Toonami back in the day as a young kid, though over time i have come to realize just how awful it really was and not blinding myself with childhood nostalgia and looking at it in a critical sense after having been exposed to the original version proper.

Would i like a dub that was nearly 100% accurate to the Japanese version? Obviously yes though FUNi even with as much as they have improved i don't think could do it even though the closest they've ever come is Kai (more so 1.0 than Final Chapters) and even that was still not completely perfect although it satisfied me as far as being much better overall than the old Z dub.
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1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 18, 2020 5:38 pm

I get the idea that people who whine about this stuff don't seem to understand the differences between Japanese and English. There are idioms, phrases, and whole vocabulary that are untranslatable and just would not work with an english dub Because it's a completely different language. So you have to bridge that gap between making a dub that is both accessible to english audiences while also being accurate to the source material. That does not mean copying everything word for word. Again, that is why there is a japanese dub attached to all home releases so you can experience Dragon Ball as is. You already got what you wanted.

What bothers me so much is that elitist nonsense. You guys live in a bubble where you think these matters of high concern, but the reality is is that you are in the minority. You are not the focus for english dubs. And I think the idea that some of you guys think you know better than people who grew up with the funimation dubs is at best laughable, and at worst arrogant. Dragon Ball Z is Dragon Ball Z. And liking whichever version is equally valid. So either learn Japanese, so just knock it off.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 18, 2020 5:46 pm

I’ve heard people say that the reason we still have terms like “Special Beam Cannon” and “Destructo Disk” is because Toei or Bandai or whoever insisted on that FUNimation stick with them. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, it would pretty much be in line with how Toho treats “Godzilla” as the proper way to say “Gojira” in English.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by kemuri07 » Mon May 18, 2020 5:54 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:46 pm
I’ve heard people say that the reason we still have terms like “Special Beam Cannon” and “Destructo Disk” is because Toei or Bandai or whoever insisted on that FUNimation stick with them. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, it would pretty much be in line with how Toho treats “Godzilla” as the proper way to say “Gojira” in English.
Again. That's regional differences. Yes, it's not that hard to figure out that Godzilla is "Gojira." But that's regional differences. For Westerners, The creature is called Godzila. And it's fine because people understand what it means regardless of whether you say Gojira or Godzilla--that's what's great about languages. But I'm not gonna run up and say "well you don't really understand it cause it's called 'Gojira.' Only assholes do that. Like kids who think they're smart because they call My Hero Acadamia, ぼくのヒーローアカダイミア. You're not clever for taking a look at Wikipedia.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Robo4900 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:05 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:46 pm
I’ve heard people say that the reason we still have terms like “Special Beam Cannon” and “Destructo Disk” is because Toei or Bandai or whoever insisted on that FUNimation stick with them. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, it would pretty much be in line with how Toho treats “Godzilla” as the proper way to say “Gojira” in English.
I don't know about before, but as of the DVD/Blu-ray release of Super Broly, Toei have laid down the law that the official subtitles are to use dub terminology from now on. So, Simmons' subs no longer say "Freeza", "Bra", "Crane Hermit", "Shen", etc., they say "Frieza", "Bulla", "Master Shen", "Hero", etc.
kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm
Because people don't care.
I mean, it's not because of that, but it is true; most fans just watch the dub and don't care... Though really, that's not an argument against, because "I don't care" doesn't mean "Don't fix it", it means "I don't care if it gets fixed", so the audience who would prefer if it did get fixed should be catered to, since the people who don't care are catered to either way, meanwhile the hardcore fans who do care are also catered to.
It's much like the 4:3 full-frame vs 16:9 crop thing; most people tend to just not care, but the fans would strongly prefer 4:3. So, you should release in 4:3, because it caters to everyone. Instead, Funi choose to do a crop, which the fans hate, but most people don't really care much.

Anyway, the real reason is actually because no one at Funimation cares what the fans want, and they want to stick to their old ways that they've barely deviated much from since 1996.
kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm
what you're doing is nit-picking nonsense that refuses to consider the cultural differences between regions and the fact that a dub is meant to be an "adaptation" to appeal to an audience that doesn't understand Japanese. It's not that big of a deal, dude.
No, what he's doing is pointing out that this dub that allegedly is, to directly quote Sean Schemmel, "The purest DBZ experience possible", is actually a bit shit if judged purely as a translation of the original.

This isn't about cultural differences. Dubs like Blue Water's GT, Viz's Death Note, Pioneer's DBZ movies 1-3, etc. etc. are able to be accurate while still flowing naturally in English. Funimation thus far is consistently, constantly loaded up with unnecessary additions/changes. There's no justifiable reason for why the TFS fan parody artists should have come in an improvised two minutes of memes in the middle of the TFC dub, there's no reason that half of Goku's name should be ignored, there's no reason why Jiren should say "I trust no one, even Dragons. I want the power to bend all to my will; even bend time itself!" when he said or suggested any such thing in the original (the line in Japanese in the scene in question was simply "Strength is absolute"), there's no reason for Vegeta to say "Let's go visit Yamcha", there's no reason for Vegeta to have said that the only reason he was harsh on Trunks was "Because I just wanted you to be a strong boy." ... Funimation are constantly adding and changing things for no reason. It's not cultural differences, it's shit being thrown in because the Funi script writers think it improves the show to make these random changes according to nothing other than their own personal preferences. Despite their talk of "We have the utmost respect for the original Japanese, and if something is in our scripts, it's also in the Japanese", they constantly just decide "Let's do this joke, because I think it'll be funny", or "Let's add this line, because I think it adds depth", entirely ignoring the fact that a dub is a translation of a foreign show. Yes, it should be enjoyable for what it is as an English product on its own, but that shouldn't be just a blanket excuse to throw whatever shit in that they feel like.
kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 3:49 pm
If you want to watch a 100% accurate "dub"-- just watch the japanese dub. That's why it's there.
If "But you can just watch the Japanese subbed version" is an acceptable answer, then the dub is 100% immune to all criticism. So, by your logic, the 4Kids dub of One Piece is totally fine, as is their dub of Sonic X, as is their dub of Yu-Gi-Oh GX (I mean, yeah, they skipped the entire last season or so, but you can just watch the Japanese version, right? :lolno:), as is the entire pre-Kai run of Funimation dubs of Dragon Ball stuff, including stuff like "Your father was a brilliant scientist", "You'll regret that when my arm grows back!", "They destroyed the cargo robot!", and various changes made to characterisations, and the general removal of all mysticism. Because you can just watch the Japanese version, right? So it's completely fine if the dub is practically an entirely different show, because the Japanese vesrion does exist... Never mind that for the first ten years of the franchise being here in the west, you couldn't actually watch in Japanese...

In case you can't tell, in my opinion, the "but you can just watch the sub" argument is utter nonsense. In fact, I wouldn't even call it an argument, it's just a dismissive handwave.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Mon May 18, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 18, 2020 6:06 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:54 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:46 pm
I’ve heard people say that the reason we still have terms like “Special Beam Cannon” and “Destructo Disk” is because Toei or Bandai or whoever insisted on that FUNimation stick with them. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but if it is, it would pretty much be in line with how Toho treats “Godzilla” as the proper way to say “Gojira” in English.
Again. That's regional differences. Yes, it's not that hard to figure out that Godzilla is "Gojira." But that's regional differences. For Westerners, The creature is called Godzila. And it's fine because people understand what it means regardless of whether you say Gojira or Godzilla--that's what's great about languages. But I'm not gonna run up and say "well you don't really understand it cause it's called 'Gojira.' Only assholes do that. Like kids who think they're smart because they call My Hero Acadamia, ぼくのヒーローアカダイミア. You're not clever for taking a look at Wikipedia.
To be clear, I exclusively refer to the character as “Godzilla”, because why not? I don’t really consider myself to be that much of a purist. Hell, I’m actually more forgiving of some of FUNimation’s liberties than a lot of other people around here are.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:22 pm

The whole deal with Toei mandating that dub terms must be used for subs going forward was just so mind boggling, as it's basically the same thing FUNi did when they first started releasing bilingual DVDs back in 2000. For some reason even though Steve Simmons already had accurate translations done at the time they inserted dub names and terms into the subtitles on the Captain Ginyu discs though that was resolved very quickly afterwards, and now they're essentially making that sort of thing official.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Mon May 18, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Robo4900 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:26 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:22 pm
The whole deal with Toei mandating that dub terms must be used for subs going forward was just so mind boggling, as it's basically thing the same FUNi did when they first started releasing bilingual DVDs back in 2000. For some reason even though Steve Simmons already had accurate translations done at the time they inserted dub names and terms into the subtitles on the Captain Ginyu discs though that was resolved very quickly afterwards, and now they're essentially making that sort of thing official.
Yeah.

It's especially weird, because in theory, the idea was to generate consistency... Except anyone who watches subbed will now find massive inconsistency, and anyone who watches dubbed will see no difference, because they just watch dubbed.
All it does is screw the sub viewers.

Exhibit #81373 that Toei is completely out of touch with what people actually want, and they tend to just make arbitrary decisions that are forced on their foreign partners for no reason...

... Why does Dragon Ball have to be handled, to us westerners, by TWO companies who are awful? :lol:
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Thanos » Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm

My solution is to just watch it subbed as I've done for 15 years with no regrets. As long as "Hercule" is still uttered, Kaio still sounds like... that and Buu still speaks in third person, I won't go near it with a ten-foot pole.

Though, from what I've observed, it seems like FUNimation leaned way too much into the TeamFourStar subculture of Dragon Ball. I've caught a couple of episodes of the Super dub out of morbid curiosity and it seems like they're trying to get as close to that vibe as possible. Forcing jokes in that simply didn't exist in the original release is just weird. Parody is fine, but not when you're an official licensor of the product!
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:22 pm
The whole deal with Toei mandating that dub terms must be used for subs going forward was just so mind boggling, as it's basically thing the same FUNi did when they first started releasing bilingual DVDs back in 2000.
This upsets me way more than I'd care to admit. There's a special kind of nostalgia and charm of seeing "SON GOKOU"-type lettering on overseas products.
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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 18, 2020 6:34 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm
My solution is to just watch it subbed as I've done for 15 years with no regrets. As long as "Hercule" is still uttered, Kaio still sounds like... that and Buu still speaks in third person, I won't go near it with a ten-foot pole.

Though, from what I've observed, it seems like FUNimation leaned way too much into the TeamFourStar subculture of Dragon Ball. I've caught a couple of episodes of the Super dub out of morbid curiosity and it seems like they're trying to get as close to that vibe as possible. Forcing jokes in that simply didn't exist in the original release is just weird. Parody is fine, but not when you're an official licensor of the product!
“Hercule” has pretty much been phased out entirely at this point. Even back in the day, FUNimation still generally referred to the character as “Mr. Satan” in their uncut dubs, and the video games have started calling him that as well.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 18, 2020 6:36 pm

Thanos wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:28 pm
My solution is to just watch it subbed as I've done for 15 years with no regrets. As long as "Hercule" is still uttered, Kaio still sounds like... that and Buu still speaks in third person, I won't go near it with a ten-foot pole.

Though, from what I've observed, it seems like FUNimation leaned way too much into the TeamFourStar subculture of Dragon Ball. I've caught a couple of episodes of the Super dub out of morbid curiosity and it seems like they're trying to get as close to that vibe as possible. Forcing jokes in that simply didn't exist in the original release is just weird. Parody is fine, but not when you're an official licensor of the product!
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 6:22 pm
The whole deal with Toei mandating that dub terms must be used for subs going forward was just so mind boggling, as it's basically thing the same FUNi did when they first started releasing bilingual DVDs back in 2000.
This upsets me way more than I'd care to admit. There's a special kind of nostalgia and charm of seeing "SON GOKOU"-type lettering on overseas products.
Indeed, i don't get it either because i've been so used to the subtitles on the home releases more or less being accurate and faithful to the original version and now that is being cast aside with forced insertion of dub names and it's all just so jarring to see after the established standard that we've had for so long.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Forte224 » Mon May 18, 2020 7:38 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 5:38 pm
I get the idea that people who whine about this stuff don't seem to understand the differences between Japanese and English. There are idioms, phrases, and whole vocabulary that are untranslatable and just would not work with an english dub Because it's a completely different language. So you have to bridge that gap between making a dub that is both accessible to english audiences while also being accurate to the source material. That does not mean copying everything word for word. Again, that is why there is a japanese dub attached to all home releases so you can experience Dragon Ball as is. You already got what you wanted.

What bothers me so much is that elitist nonsense. You guys live in a bubble where you think these matters of high concern, but the reality is is that you are in the minority. You are not the focus for english dubs. And I think the idea that some of you guys think you know better than people who grew up with the funimation dubs is at best laughable, and at worst arrogant. Dragon Ball Z is Dragon Ball Z. And liking whichever version is equally valid. So either learn Japanese, so just knock it off.
No one here is asking for word-for-word translation. I'm getting sick of the "It's just a localization bro" arguments. Localization is important, but that doesn't mean literally any change they make is ok. Having Vegeta make a meme-like Yamcha joke that wasn't even close to being there in Japanese is not ok. Having Trunks at a loss for words when meeting #18 in Super in Japanese and then instead in English abruptly telling her he killed her because "It was you or mankind so yeah" is not ok. A lot of things about FUNi's dub/translation/localization practices are not ok.

You say "you are not the focus for English dubs" but I want to be. That's why I complain about it. Wanting a faithful dub is not an inherently elitist thing.

Also, I grew up with the FUNi dub. I started out hearing the Ocean cast and was watching when it switched to FUNi's in-house cast. I loved the show, but then I grew up and realized how stupid all the changes they made were. I watched Kai 1.0 and I was finally pretty close to satisfied, but then they took a step back with Kai TFC and Super. So now I'm complaining again, because they raised the bar and then lowered it. There's nothing elitist about holding a company that wants your money to certain standards, and FUNimation referencing a stupid donut line from a video game with Hit is not the low bar I want the dub's script to have.

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Civic » Mon May 18, 2020 8:00 pm

The thing is, this stuff only bothers certain people. It can be very well true that Special Beam Cannon is in no way a proper translation of Makankosappo, but I could've gone the rest of my life never knowing that, because it doesn't really affect anything. Regardless of what Piccolo shouts before firing, it's still going to be a corkscrew beam that penetrates targets.

I understand why dubbing inconsistencies or outright changes would bother people. I do. But at the same time, I'm one of those people who doesn't really mind all that much. I watched DBZ as the Ocean/Funi dub and I loved the show. Knowing that Goku's "Superman" speech wasn't in the original Japanese isn't that big of a deal to me. I just can't help but say "OK?" when someone says "but it wasn't in the original show!" I didn't watch the original Japanese, so why should it affect me or my enjoyment of the show I did watch?

I'm not arguing that people who get riled up by these changes are wrong, they just see the show differently than I do. They place greater emphasis on a adaptation as close to the source material as possible, and I don't. But I think that's why there tends to be a clash between people who are fine with the dub and those that aren't - it's very annoying, for either side, to be told their experience or preference with the show is 'wrong.'

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Re: SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings

Post by Forte224 » Mon May 18, 2020 9:13 pm

Civic wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:00 pm
The thing is, this stuff only bothers certain people. It can be very well true that Special Beam Cannon is in no way a proper translation of Makankosappo, but I could've gone the rest of my life never knowing that, because it doesn't really affect anything. Regardless of what Piccolo shouts before firing, it's still going to be a corkscrew beam that penetrates targets.
The problem here is that also means you wouldn't have cared if it was accurately translated in the first place either. In this situation, everybody is happy. With the way FUNi currently does it, the only people that are happy are the ones that don't care, like yourself, and the ones that elevate FUNi's dub above all else no matter what (unless old content gets re-dubbed. Then they find a way to hate that too).

I still have no idea why FUNi has treated Super like they have. I'm sure the people that love the other FUNi dubs for Dragon Ball would have praised FUNi's dub of Super regardless of how this type of stuff was handled, so why not just do what you already started doing with Kai 1.0 and have it be more faithful?

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