SAY-IN - SPECIAL BEAM CAN-IN - SUN GOKU - DESTRUCTO DISK | Why does Dragon Ball STILL suffer with these shortcomings?

[kemuri07]

So do folks want Goku to be like this girl, or have the cast embrace their Texasness? While Boomhauer Goku would be funny, many of us wouldn't understand him.

Goku being given a southern drawl to adapt the original dialect doesn't mean "Let's make him have an awful, incomprehensible speaking mannerism!", and any suggestion that that is what it means is a strawman.

... Though I don't see what's so impossible to understand about that clip... The accent is thick, but perfectly understandable.

You guys do get the fact that Japanese "southern" is not the same as American "southern," right? Like, Giving Goku a southern drawl would not make him closer to the japanese perfomance.

[Robo4900]

So do folks want Goku to be like this girl, or have the cast embrace their Texasness? While Boomhauer Goku would be funny, many of us wouldn't understand him.

Goku being given a southern drawl to adapt the original dialect doesn't mean "Let's make him have an awful, incomprehensible speaking mannerism!", and any suggestion that that is what it means is a strawman.

... Though I don't see what's so impossible to understand about that clip... The accent is thick, but perfectly understandable.

You guys do get the fact that Japanese "southern" is not the same as American "southern," right? Like, Giving Goku a southern drawl would not make him closer to the japanese perfomance.

Sorry, I can't quite hear you over your immense condescension...

Cheap shots about your manners aside, Goku is known to have a very stereotypical dialect from a region whose location and name I forget that is described as being much akin to an American having a hick accent, or a southern drawl, or what-have-you. I would presume a British equivalent would be a midlands/brummy accent (though perhaps a more northern accent would be fitting, since southern Brits are considered to sound "Posh", so while midlanders sound silly to everyone, the reason they'd sound silly to northerners is that they sound southern, so might be better to go for a very northern accent. Or perhaps a sort of "Chav" dialect would be more fitting. Goku as a chav would be hilarious). There'll be other equivalents from other countries too, though I'm not sure what they would be (though I think perhaps one for France might be a Quebec dialect; I've that the Quebec dialect is often described by European French people as being "Drunken German French").

Next time, ask your questions with some assumption of a basic level of knowledge on the part of those you're talking to, please.

[Majin Buu]

That's the big disconnect in these discussions. A lot of these people on the dub side just straight up don't care. I can't speak for every dub fan but I'm more of a take everything as they come type of person. I'd rather things be accurate but I also don't care about changes that don't bother me. And I think people who aren't already exposed to the original will have an even stronger version of that mentality.

To play devil's advocate: Some of them actually don't care, others seem like they don't care until they come across someone that prefers to use the Japanese terms (for legit reasons) or states outright that they prefer Japanese Dragon Ball and don't like the dub; then they react hostilely like they themselves are being attacked.

[MyVisionity]

Cheap shots about your manners aside, Goku is known to have a very stereotypical dialect from a region whose location and name I forget that is described as being much akin to an American having a hick accent, or a southern drawl, or what-have-you.

I'm not so sure if this is actually true at all. Goku consistently speaks in a very casual and informal Japanese, but as far as any type of regional dialect is concerned, I've read from some that say that there isn't any trace of such a thing, beyond Nozawa adding certain inflections in the anime version. I've also seen others suggest that there is in fact a particular dialect that Goku is speaking in.

Personally, I think understanding that the character is supposed to be a hick that has never left the mountains along with his personality does enough to tell the viewer how his speech might sound.

[WittyUsername]

If Goku were given a southern drawl, wouldn’t that mean that Grandpa Gohan would have to have one as well?

[LoganForkHands73]

Goku being given a southern drawl to adapt the original dialect doesn't mean "Let's make him have an awful, incomprehensible speaking mannerism!", and any suggestion that that is what it means is a strawman.

... Though I don't see what's so impossible to understand about that clip... The accent is thick, but perfectly understandable.

You guys do get the fact that Japanese "southern" is not the same as American "southern," right? Like, Giving Goku a southern drawl would not make him closer to the japanese perfomance.

Sorry, I can't quite hear you over your immense condescension...

Cheap shots about your manners aside, Goku is known to have a very stereotypical dialect from a region whose location and name I forget that is described as being much akin to an American having a hick accent, or a southern drawl, or what-have-you. I would presume a British equivalent would be a midlands/brummy accent (though perhaps a more northern accent would be fitting, since southern Brits are considered to sound "Posh", so while midlanders sound silly to everyone, the reason they'd sound silly to northerners is that they sound southern, so might be better to go for a very northern accent. Or perhaps a sort of "Chav" dialect would be more fitting. Goku as a chav would be hilarious). There'll be other equivalents from other countries too, though I'm not sure what they would be (though I think perhaps one for France might be a Quebec dialect; I've that the Quebec dialect is often described by European French people as being "Drunken German French").

Next time, ask your questions with some assumption of a basic level of knowledge on the part of those you're talking to, please.

Heheh. As a Brit, I've imagined how Goku would sound in British English many times. The thing is, we have sooo many "country bumpkin" type accents it's beyond a joke (which I also conform to). I think a Northern accent, probably Yorkshire, would fit well to reflect the higher pitched voice of Nozawa. Maybe there could be a whole thread about this...

And yeah, to kemuri, we weren't talking about Southern American being geographically accurate to Goku's dialect, wherever it's supposed to be in Japan. Any stereotypical "uncouth" accent would fit Goku's character, but when it comes to America, the redneck accent is what everyone thinks of when cultural transitioning from Goku's unconventional regional accent (it's apparently called "Hokuetsu").

[jjgp1112]

There's this one accent that I can only call "dim, friendly mountain boy" that I frequently hear in cartoons for that character archetype that I think would fit Goku well, at least as a kid. It's southern, but not obnoxiously so and there's a bit of uncertainty in their speech. In early DB when Goku was at his dumbest, Stephanie Nadolny tended to voice him like he was confused a lot, and that;s close to what I hope I'm conveying here lol.

[MyVisionity]

I noticed in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer anime that Masako Nozawa doesn't seem to give Tom any of the speech patterns that Goku has, which I thought was interesting given the setting. Meanwhile in the dub, I realized it was Barbara Goodson voicing Tom Sawyer with a full-on Southern accent and dialect. This too I thought was interesting given the Harmony Gold connection.

[Aim]

Honestly I would really like to see a fully hick Deep South Goku (or whichever stereotypical region you'd prefer) but I don't think that would go down too well with folk.

Not with most of the current fandom, no, but it should be a take it or leave it situation, they have their releases preserved, no need to spoil the rest of Dragon Ball's future forever.

Oh, jeez. I guess I just imagined myself being a professional writer and everything.

Well, if you think your own personal interpretation of the scenes and Goku's character is the end-all, be-all, then have at it, partner.

I forgot "professionals" aren't bias, my mistake, partner.

It's not my personal interpretation, it's the actual 'version' of that character/franchise, my point has been this entire time that there are numerous things that don't need to be changed that are, if you think Son Goku is portrayed accurately in our dub, then I can't take you seriously, especially when you have to bust out the "I'm a professional!" 'point'.

Let me help, a decent counter argument in my opinion would be something like this; Dragon Ball's changes, while not all justified, definitely has some legitimacy to them. Dragon Ball starting off in the "Z" era in the West meant many fans would have missed the very beginning, the "magical-ness" of early Dragon Ball that gave some explanations to the very first appearance of ki being used, such as the Kamehameha. Not to mention, with Piccolo being described as a demon early on, certain attack names may not make much sense to the audience. Which is why the name changes are completely justified."

So do folks want Goku to be like this girl, or have the cast embrace their Texasness? While Boomhauer Goku would be funny, many of us wouldn't understand him.

Yeah, no, not even Goku's hick in the Japanese is that hard to understand, this is over kill. Ironic thing is we get an over kill of a different personality in the Super dub.

To play devil's advocate: Some of them actually don't care, others seem like they don't care until they come across someone that prefers to use the Japanese terms (for legit reasons) or states outright that they prefer Japanese Dragon Ball and don't like the dub; then they react hostilely like they themselves are being attacked.

I wouldn't want to take away peoples childhoods and the Dragon Ball that they grew up with, they can enjoy it, the thing I'm not a fan of is continuing this charades longer than it needs to be.

I'm not so sure if this is actually true at all. Goku consistently speaks in a very casual and informal Japanese, but as far as any type of regional dialect is concerned, I've read from some that say that there isn't any trace of such a thing, beyond Nozawa adding certain inflections in the anime version. I've also seen others suggest that there is in fact a particular dialect that Goku is speaking in.

Personally, I think understanding that the character is supposed to be a hick that has never left the mountains along with his personality does enough to tell the viewer how his speech might sound.

I've noticed that a bit as well, I think the way Nozawa preforms is quite good, considering that Son wasn't actually raised in any specific region that we know off with a settlement that has specific accents. Makes sense to have him speak the way he does, but not too over the top, and I definitely think it's translatable.

If Goku were given a southern drawl, wouldn’t that mean that Grandpa Gohan would have to have one as well?

Quite possibly, not as 'rough' though, I don't remember whether it was specified how long Son was on his own for without his Grandfather, so I'm not too sure, maybe someone else can answer that, it would be interesting.

[JustAlex1997]

If you're an English-speaking Dragon Ball fan, there's a chance you've only known the dub changes for upwards to twenty (plus) years. Whenever I use names like "Kuririn", many have no idea what I'm talking about. Funimation stuck with their changes for so long that, from a business perspective, they won't (or can't) change things back. Even with the attack names in Dragon Ball Z Kai, they're inconsistent with them.

The fact that I've heard people complain about Beerus' "Hakai" not being translated into English, Google correcting searches of the Japanese names with the dub names, and so on makes it clear that the English-speaking fanbase doesn't want Japanese Dragon Ball.

[Robo4900]

If you're an English-speaking Dragon Ball fan, there's a chance you've only known the dub changes for upwards to twenty (plus) years. Whenever I use names like "Kuririn", many have no idea what I'm talking about. Funimation stuck with their changes for so long that, from a business perspective, they won't (or can't) change things back.

Good answer. And tbh, at this point, I wouldn't expect them to.
I'm a little peeved by all the subtitle names changing for Super Broly onwards (and Super on Crunchyroll), but I hear that's orders from above, so, not their fault (and, really, it's quite a minor quibble anyway). And to their credit, Funi did fix a few things; they now use Vegetto instead of Vegito, for instance. And IIRC the Grand Elder of Namek is just The Grand Elder, not Guru. So... Yeah, in fairness, dub names are probably sticking around, and really, that's okay.

Even with the attack names in Dragon Ball Z Kai, they're inconsistent with them.

Yeah, I've never understood this. They should've either stuck with them all the way, or not bothered.
For some reason, they used romanised attack names in the uncut dub, but dub attack names in the TV dub, then at some point, decided to drop one... So they dropped the dub attacks on the TV dub.
Not sure exactly what led to that decision, but it's certainly a baffling one IMO.

The fact that I've heard people complain about Beerus' "Hakai" not being translated into English, Google correcting searches of the Japanese names with the dub names, and so on makes it clear that the English-speaking fanbase doesn't want Japanese Dragon Ball.

I think you're pretty off the mark there.

For starters... You'll hear people complain about EVERYTHING, even the stupidest things. Hell, I've complained about stupid things here, constantly. What the fuck gives me the right to criticise the modern Funi cast when I'm clearly just still too attached to the Ocean cast to accept anyone else? Why did I derail a thread for like a page and a half to argue with ABED about whether or not video games are art when it really doesn't matter what either of us think?... Ultimately, this forum is just a place where we share our opinions. And sometimes, opinions suck. I know for a fact some people to this day insist on referring to the cyborgs as "Jinzoningen", which I find utterly stupid. Does that mean fans who prefer a more accurate take are all crazy madmen who would insist on such weird terminology? No. It just means I've encountered some people whose view I disagree with. That's just life.

As for Google correcting searches of the Japanese names to the dub names... Well, yeah. The dub names are the most common in the English fandom. The dub was what aired on TV, meanwhile the sub -- until like 6 years ago -- was only available to people dedicated enough to buy the DVDs (or pirate it through means more complicated than Googling "dragon ball z free stream online" and clicking the first search result). But they're often so different, that if you're one of the few people who watched subbed and is thus not hugely familiar with the dub terminology for this or that character or attack, you'll be left scratching your head with certain google searches.

But, finally, "The English-speaking fandom doesn't want Japanese Dragon Ball."...
Well, you're mostly right. Because most of the English-speaking fandom grew up on the dub, and thus tend to just watch the dub... But here's the secret -- most English-speaking fans don't care.

Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone care about the cast switchover in 1999? Not really. Most kids watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore dub elitists, did anyone mind that you could only watch Super subbed for ages? Not really. Most people watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone in the UK or Canada mind that the DVDs didn't contain the dub they grew up on? Well, much as I hate to admit it... Not really. They were just happy to own the show on DVD. Probably a lot of UK fans would've been happy about having the right dub, but a company being unable to go the extra mile, sad as it is, is hardly the end of the world. Similarly, most fans probably didn't even bother switching to the US score track on their DBZ DVDs, and likely didn't notice the partial redubbing, they just put it on and watched whatever came on.

It's always worth being aware of the fact that, ultimately, what we're saying here on Kanzenshuu is niche nerd debates about the granular things that no casual fan cares about in the slightest. And ultimately, a lot of it doesn't matter much. Do I REALLY care that much about how the different Dragon Ball casts compare?... Well, not really. I grew up on the Ocean dub, and the dubs are generally a less faithful experience than the Japanese, so I just enjoy the Ocean dub and the Japanese version, and... Well, there we are. It's not really a problem. I wish Ocean would do more so I could have more of my preferred dub cast (I'd especially like to see the still-unreleased Ocean Kai dub; hopefully Wow Unlimited gets their act together sometime in the next couple of years ), but it's not like Ocean didn't do like 200 episodes of the show... And it's not like there aren't 508 episodes of the Japanese version out there, plus Kai, plus Super, plus the movies, plus the specials...

I'm rambling, but the point is... Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball, to most people. Even to the hardcore fans, a lot of complaints about one version or another come from someone who primarily watches a different version. And ultimately, much as it's fun to talk about the granular things in the franchise here on Kanzenshuu, it's a goofy martial arts cartoon for children. Most people don't care.
So, all this is a roundabout way of saying... I don't think the average fan really cares about whether they're getting Japanese Dragon Ball, Funimation's Dragon Ball, Ocean's Dragon Ball, AB Groupe's Dragon Ball, or whatever else. We know the difference, but most people either don't know, or don't care. So, I think it's naive to say people particularly want one version more than any other version just because one version's terminology is far more common than the others'.

FWIW, no, this post isn't me resigning to Funi's changes being fine... I'd still prefer a more accurate dub more in line with the Pioneer or Blue Water stuff, but I've recently realised that I've been taking this all far too seriously, and overstating a lot of things, to the point of getting pretty inflammatory about a lot of shit that really doesn't matter (at one point, I called Funi's home video department "Evil" for not giving us 4:3, un-DNR'd DVDs/BDs... And then doubled down on it when called out on how silly that was! ), even criticising a lot of Funi actors whose performances are fine, but I've been so caught up in voicing my preference for other versions, I've ended up talking shit about the ones I don't prefer, which is... Shitty. And I feel like sharing my feelings on this may be a worthwhile contribution to this thread. IDK. I think it's easy to get caught up in the granularity of this all, and some of us (or maybe just me? ) need to remember now and then that none of this really matters that much, and probably the things we're criticising, we're not even watching anyway.

FWIW, even though Z is loaded up with all of Funi's worst script changes, I still unabashedly, unapologetically, unironically LOVE the Ocean dubs. And if Ocean started up dubbing Dragon Ball again, but used Funi's scripts... I'd still probably love it. And for people who are exactly like me except they grew up in the USA on the Funi dub, their version of that is happening right now, and they do love it. The thing is, one or two things you don't like doesn't make something great into something crap. And it's fine for you to prefer one version of a thing over another; you don't have to then condemn the other as being shitty or otherwise inferior, invalid, unwanted, etc. And it usually isn't shitty, inferior, invalid, etc. Funi's Kai dub, for instance, I've lambasted a lot recently for various script changes, and often downplayed its quality, but it's a solid piece of dubbing that was clearly made by people who cared a lot about doing Dragon Ball dubbing right. I particularly have always been impressed by how good Chris Sabat is as Vegeta in Kai. I still have criticisms... But I'd have criticisms with everything. Nothing is perfect. And for all its faults, Funi's Kai dub is the best English dub of the Z storyline to watch, and I should probably shut up about the actors involved, 'cause at worst, my opinion is that they're a miscasting, which is likely a controversial take, and ultimately just means I don't think they're suited to the role... So even if I'm right, the actor's doing nothing wrong, and it's just kinda mean to pick on them...


... My point is, ultimately, this thread is about a lot of arguably very granular, arguably unimportant things about something a lot of people enjoy very much. IMO, these criticisms are still valid opinions to voice; just as valid as discussions along the line of "What do you think of the Moro arc so far?" or "What's the best Dragon Ball storyline?" or pretty much anything else we talk about on these forums. Just as long as people don't go to far and get into inflammatory territory.

So, I suggest you don't take any ideas of what the broader fanbase actually wants very seriously, because ultimately the conclusion you'll come to by going on that line of thinking is "Dragon Ball, on a streaming service I'm already subscribed to, with all my favourite characters present, and a big-ass fight with a fun villain." That's kind of all that most people want. Anything more than that is nerdy granular stuff that's fun to discuss but doesn't matter all that much... So, go forth and discuss nerdy granular stuff.

Apologies for the ramble. I may have gone too far in a few places.

[JustAlex1997]

Good answer. And tbh, at this point, I wouldn't expect them to.
I'm a little peeved by all the subtitle names changing for Super Broly onwards (and Super on Crunchyroll), but I hear that's orders from above, so, not their fault (and, really, it's quite a minor quibble anyway). And to their credit, Funi did fix a few things; they now use Vegetto instead of Vegito, for instance. And IIRC the Grand Elder of Namek is just The Grand Elder, not Guru. So... Yeah, in fairness, dub names are probably sticking around, and really, that's okay.

Yeah, I've never understood this. They should've either stuck with them all the way, or not bothered.
For some reason, they used romanised attack names in the uncut dub, but dub attack names in the TV dub, then at some point, decided to drop one... So they dropped the dub attacks on the TV dub.
Not sure exactly what led to that decision, but it's certainly a baffling one IMO.

I think you're pretty off the mark there.

For starters... You'll hear people complain about EVERYTHING, even the stupidest things. Hell, I've complained about stupid things here, constantly. What the fuck gives me the right to criticise the modern Funi cast when I'm clearly just still too attached to the Ocean cast to accept anyone else? Why did I derail a thread for like a page and a half to argue with ABED about whether or not video games are art when it really doesn't matter what either of us think?... Ultimately, this forum is just a place where we share our opinions. And sometimes, opinions suck. I know for a fact some people to this day insist on referring to the cyborgs as "Jinzoningen", which I find utterly stupid. Does that mean fans who prefer a more accurate take are all crazy madmen who would insist on such weird terminology? No. It just means I've encountered some people whose view I disagree with. That's just life.

As for Google correcting searches of the Japanese names to the dub names... Well, yeah. The dub names are the most common in the English fandom. The dub was what aired on TV, meanwhile the sub -- until like 6 years ago -- was only available to people dedicated enough to buy the DVDs (or pirate it through means more complicated than Googling "dragon ball z free stream online" and clicking the first search result). But they're often so different, that if you're one of the few people who watched subbed and is thus not hugely familiar with the dub terminology for this or that character or attack, you'll be left scratching your head with certain google searches.

But, finally, "The English-speaking fandom doesn't want Japanese Dragon Ball."...
Well, you're mostly right. Because most of the English-speaking fandom grew up on the dub, and thus tend to just watch the dub... But here's the secret -- most English-speaking fans don't care.

Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone care about the cast switchover in 1999? Not really. Most kids watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore dub elitists, did anyone mind that you could only watch Super subbed for ages? Not really. Most people watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone in the UK or Canada mind that the DVDs didn't contain the dub they grew up on? Well, much as I hate to admit it... Not really. They were just happy to own the show on DVD. Probably a lot of UK fans would've been happy about having the right dub, but a company being unable to go the extra mile, sad as it is, is hardly the end of the world. Similarly, most fans probably didn't even bother switching to the US score track on their DBZ DVDs, and likely didn't notice the partial redubbing, they just put it on and watched whatever came on.

It's always worth being aware of the fact that, ultimately, what we're saying here on Kanzenshuu is niche nerd debates about the granular things that no casual fan cares about in the slightest. And ultimately, a lot of it doesn't matter much. Do I REALLY care that much about how the different Dragon Ball casts compare?... Well, not really. I grew up on the Ocean dub, and the dubs are generally a less faithful experience than the Japanese, so I just enjoy the Ocean dub and the Japanese version, and... Well, there we are. It's not really a problem. I wish Ocean would do more so I could have more of my preferred dub cast (I'd especially like to see the still-unreleased Ocean Kai dub; hopefully Wow Unlimited gets their act together sometime in the next couple of years ), but it's not like Ocean didn't do like 200 episodes of the show... And it's not like there aren't 508 episodes of the Japanese version out there, plus Kai, plus Super, plus the movies, plus the specials...

I'm rambling, but the point is... Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball, to most people. Even to the hardcore fans, a lot of complaints about one version or another come from someone who primarily watches a different version. And ultimately, much as it's fun to talk about the granular things in the franchise here on Kanzenshuu, it's a goofy martial arts cartoon for children. Most people don't care.
So, all this is a roundabout way of saying... I don't think the average fan really cares about whether they're getting Japanese Dragon Ball, Funimation's Dragon Ball, Ocean's Dragon Ball, AB Groupe's Dragon Ball, or whatever else. We know the difference, but most people either don't know, or don't care. So, I think it's naive to say people particularly want one version more than any other version just because one version's terminology is far more common than the others'.

FWIW, no, this post isn't me resigning to Funi's changes being fine... I'd still prefer a more accurate dub more in line with the Pioneer or Blue Water stuff, but I've recently realised that I've been taking this all far too seriously, and overstating a lot of things, to the point of getting pretty inflammatory about a lot of shit that really doesn't matter (at one point, I called Funi's home video department "Evil" for not giving us 4:3, un-DNR'd DVDs/BDs... And then doubled down on it when called out on how silly that was! ), even criticising a lot of Funi actors whose performances are fine, but I've been so caught up in voicing my preference for other versions, I've ended up talking shit about the ones I don't prefer, which is... Shitty. And I feel like sharing my feelings on this may be a worthwhile contribution to this thread. IDK. I think it's easy to get caught up in the granularity of this all, and some of us (or maybe just me? ) need to remember now and then that none of this really matters that much, and probably the things we're criticising, we're not even watching anyway.

FWIW, even though Z is loaded up with all of Funi's worst script changes, I still unabashedly, unapologetically, unironically LOVE the Ocean dubs. And if Ocean started up dubbing Dragon Ball again, but used Funi's scripts... I'd still probably love it. And for people who are exactly like me except they grew up in the USA on the Funi dub, their version of that is happening right now, and they do love it. The thing is, one or two things you don't like doesn't make something great into something crap. And it's fine for you to prefer one version of a thing over another; you don't have to then condemn the other as being shitty or otherwise inferior, invalid, unwanted, etc. And it usually isn't shitty, inferior, invalid, etc. Funi's Kai dub, for instance, I've lambasted a lot recently for various script changes, and often downplayed its quality, but it's a solid piece of dubbing that was clearly made by people who cared a lot about doing Dragon Ball dubbing right. I particularly have always been impressed by how good Chris Sabat is as Vegeta in Kai. I still have criticisms... But I'd have criticisms with everything. Nothing is perfect. And for all its faults, Funi's Kai dub is the best English dub of the Z storyline to watch, and I should probably shut up about the actors involved, 'cause at worst, my opinion is that they're a miscasting, which is likely a controversial take, and ultimately just means I don't think they're suited to the role... So even if I'm right, the actor's doing nothing wrong, and it's just kinda mean to pick on them...


... My point is, ultimately, this thread is about a lot of arguably very granular, arguably unimportant things about something a lot of people enjoy very much. IMO, these criticisms are still valid opinions to voice; just as valid as discussions along the line of "What do you think of the Moro arc so far?" or "What's the best Dragon Ball storyline?" or pretty much anything else we talk about on these forums. Just as long as people don't go to far and get into inflammatory territory.

So, I suggest you don't take any ideas of what the broader fanbase actually wants very seriously, because ultimately the conclusion you'll come to by going on that line of thinking is "Dragon Ball, on a streaming service I'm already subscribed to, with all my favourite characters present, and a big-ass fight with a fun villain." That's kind of all that most people want. Anything more than that is nerdy granular stuff that's fun to discuss but doesn't matter all that much... So, go forth and discuss nerdy granular stuff.

Apologies for the ramble.

I'm somewhat flattered that you decided to write me a novel. I can only say so much in response, but I'll try to have something to say regarding each paragraph.

Funimation, in general, are much better at keeping things faithful to the source material now than they used to be. When their changes used to completely contradict established facts, create plot holes, etc., I can stomach the writing of a name differing (or whatever other small change) now, and I can always use the original spelling myself. As long as we don't get another, "your father was an average fighter, but he was a brilliant scientist" moment, can I really complain?

With nods to the fans of Japanese Dragon Ball (Tienshinhan, Makankosappo, etc.), and nods to the fans of American Dragon Ball ("over nine thousand" in the TV dub), Funimation were seemingly trying to make a faithful dub without making it too faithful as to alienate those American fans. It's almost as if they were using it to test the response to reversing their changes entirely in the future.

People do complain about a lot, but "Hakai" being in Japanese in the English dub differs greatly from many techniques in the English dub in the past. While I'm admittedly referencing a single YouTube comment with that one, it's an example of someone being opposed to something because it isn't what American Dragon Ball used to be. That's certainly a common mindset (with the demand for Faulconer Productions to return being the most obvious other example).

My point exactly. Because names like Krillin, Tien, and Frieza are so common with English-speaking fans, even Google assumes that you're spelling something wrong when you use the Japanese names. I don't know exactly how Google handles results, but even a tool for finding factual information is asking, "are you sure you meant to type that?"

You're absolutely right that many put up with subtitles in order to watch Dragon Ball Super earlier, but how many English-speaking fans will watch the three previous shows in Japanese now? Even those who didn't grow up with the English dub are more likely to not want to read subtitles if there's an option not to. That's the case with any piece of foreign entertainment.

I hate to leave things here, but I don't have much else to add. I did read your entire response before typing this, and I made sure to skim through it again after the fact for a refresher. There's a lot there, but I don't think I missed anything that I haven't already responded to (at least to some degree).

[WittyUsername]

I’d imagine that part of the reason “Hakai” was left untranslated was partly because it had already caught on as a bit of a meme with fans. Also, maybe someone just thought it sounded badass and memorable. I would’ve just had them say “begone” or something.

[gokaiblue]

Like others have said, most of the Super line changes are simple rewordings that say what was said in the Japanese only slightly differently. There are, however, those that come near the olden Z days. Funimation has been playing a balancing act of being accurate while pleasing the nostalgia of the old fans for a decade now, and unfortunately, there are times where they choose to cater to fans of the older interpretation. They missed their chance to wipe the slate clean of dub-isms with Kai, and they are unfortunately paying for it.

However, that isn't to say Dragon Ball's American adaptation is absolutely dreadful. It's still good, but there are moments and aspects that stop it from being at the level it should be. I don't know what needs to change in order to get that little push toward that level of accuracy and quality, but I hope someone at Funimation has the bright idea to listen to those who want the dub to reflect the Japanese version just a bit more. We've moved past the point of stories and plot points being changed to the nitty-gritty of characters feeling a bit off. It's still an enjoyable product, but it isn't perfect.

[Robo4900]

I'm somewhat flattered that you decided to write me a novel. I can only say so much in response, but I'll try to have something to say regarding each paragraph.

Heh. Sorry. Lockdown's leaving me alone with my thoughts a lot, so I'm very reflective at the moment, and tend to get lost in tangents. On that note, I'll be skipping over some of your points if what I have to say is redundant given other things I'm saying.

With nods to the fans of Japanese Dragon Ball (Tienshinhan, Makankosappo, etc.), and nods to the fans of American Dragon Ball ("over nine thousand" in the TV dub), Funimation were seemingly trying to make a faithful dub without making it too faithful as to alienate those American fans. It's almost as if they were using it to test the response to reversing their changes entirely in the future.

I mean, "Too faithful" isn't really a problem, the problem is the potential to alienate people... Which could happen if, say, they completely changed the entire naming scheme of the show to either be more faithful, or to be more akin to the names Harmony Gold used in 1989...

But, the issue of faithfulness is more about the scriptwriting of the uncut dub than some name changes here or there, or the odd "Nine thousand" in the TV edit. All the people who want a faithful version want is for Funi to make their scripts faithful adaptations like the Pioneer or Blue Water dubs (both of which used a lot of dub terminology; Krillin, Tien, etc.). And all the American fans want is more Dragon Ball with their favourite characters with the voices they remember.
Funi has pleased both fans in the past, with Kai 1.0, but around TFC, they kinda slipped up, and started to disappoint the fans who want something faithful, as they dropped more and more script changes in, and now it's very regular in Super. It's not necessary to make these changes in the eyes of fans who prefer a more faithful adaptation, so it's a little frustrating.

While I'm admittedly referencing a single YouTube comment with that one,

You'll find a lot of shit in YouTube comments sections that doesn't even remotely reflect any kind of broader attitude.
Having said that, to be fair, "Hakai" is a bit weird, since "Hakaishin" is consistently translated as "Destroyer God" or "God Of Destruction" IIRC, so there's a strong argument for adaptational consistency problems there.

You're absolutely right that many put up with subtitles in order to watch Dragon Ball Super earlier, but how many English-speaking fans will watch the three previous shows in Japanese now? Even those who didn't grow up with the English dub are more likely to not want to read subtitles if there's an option not to. That's the case with any piece of foreign entertainment.

Sure.
Though I don't think that says anything about people particularly disliking the Japanese version, people just prefer to either stick to what they already know, or just watch whatever the easiest, laziest option is... What's on TV at the moment is the dub, the default option on the DVDs is the dub, streaming services tend to suggest the dub first... And, subtitles are seen as higher effort to pay attention to... So...

I don't think there's any intolerance for the Japanese version -- if there was, people would be lambasting Funimation for not having "Mondo cool!" or "Cat loves food!" and for recasting Freeza to Chris Ayres, and for not giving Beers and Whis goofy accents, etc. -- it's just that people kinda don't care, and tend to just default to the dub.
There are some small subsets of fans who will die on the hill that the dub is superior and all sub fans are inferior beings, but they're in the vast minority.

I hate to leave things here, but I don't have much else to add. I did read your entire response before typing this, and I made sure to skim through it again after the fact for a refresher. There's a lot there, but I don't think I missed anything that I haven't already responded to (at least to some degree).

Cheers. Nice to know at least someone read it. Wasn't sure if anyone would; I rambled a lot there.

--

I’d imagine that part of the reason “Hakai” was left untranslated was partly because it had already caught on as a bit of a meme with fans. Also, maybe someone just thought it sounded badass and memorable. I would’ve just had them say “begone” or something.

Personally, I'd just go with "Destruction!!" and/or "Destroy!!" to match up with the fact Hakaishin is generally adapted as "God Of Destruction" or "Destroyer God" IIRC.

However, that isn't to say Dragon Ball's American adaptation is absolutely dreadful. It's still good, but there are moments and aspects that stop it from being at the level it should be. I don't know what needs to change in order to get that little push toward that level of accuracy and quality, but I hope someone at Funimation has the bright idea to listen to those who want the dub to reflect the Japanese version just a bit more. We've moved past the point of stories and plot points being changed to the nitty-gritty of characters feeling a bit off. It's still an enjoyable product, but it isn't perfect.

Indeed.

TBH, I think the changes are largely encouraged by Chris Sabat, so unless he gets replaced as director sometime in the future, Funi's dubbing of Dragon Ball is gonna stay at the level it's at for a good while.
Which is okay. I wish Funi had had a more faithful approach back in '95, or that they'd decided to go that route and stick with it back in '09, but it's all history now. At this point, they're just continuing to do what they've done for the past 11 years. Oh well. If I'm gonna watch Dragon Ball, I'm gonna watch it via the sub for serious viewing, or via one of the Ocean dubs for nostalgic viewing, so I don't really have a horse in this race. And for its faults, I'm sure the American fans enjoy Funi's version very much.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

The whole deal with Toei mandating that dub terms must be used for subs going forward was just so mind boggling, as it's basically thing the same FUNi did when they first started releasing bilingual DVDs back in 2000. For some reason even though Steve Simmons already had accurate translations done at the time they inserted dub names and terms into the subtitles on the Captain Ginyu discs though that was resolved very quickly afterwards, and now they're essentially making that sort of thing official.

Yeah.

It's especially weird, because in theory, the idea was to generate consistency... Except anyone who watches subbed will now find massive inconsistency, and anyone who watches dubbed will see no difference, because they just watch dubbed.
All it does is screw the sub viewers.

Exhibit #81373 that Toei is completely out of touch with what people actually want, and they tend to just make arbitrary decisions that are forced on their foreign partners for no reason...

... Why does Dragon Ball have to be handled, to us westerners, by TWO companies who are awful?

It's not Toei's sole fault I don't think. It's probably come from higher since FUNi's dub spellings have been used for everyone now. It's not a Western problem it's a worldwide one now including Japan. Broly was essentially when this new initiative started when they didn't spell it Broli then all of overseas including Asian countries were subjecting to all the dub spellings and so the forced dub spellings were in hindsight not that much of a shock. Then of March this year the worst happened and the dub spellings finally breached Japan but what makes it even worse was they started toying with the idea of even dropping "Son" from Goku's name in Japan... but thankfully it seemed to have been a one time thing.

The problem is even bigger for Japan because they love English so much any opportunity and they'll use English. It's only June but already have been subjected to so much "Vegito" and "Frieza" it's disgusting...

FUNi even reverted Vegetto and yet the ironic thing is everyone is now forced to use "Vegito". What a world we live in.

[Aim]

Good answer. And tbh, at this point, I wouldn't expect them to.
I'm a little peeved by all the subtitle names changing for Super Broly onwards (and Super on Crunchyroll), but I hear that's orders from above, so, not their fault (and, really, it's quite a minor quibble anyway). And to their credit, Funi did fix a few things; they now use Vegetto instead of Vegito, for instance. And IIRC the Grand Elder of Namek is just The Grand Elder, not Guru. So... Yeah, in fairness, dub names are probably sticking around, and really, that's okay.

I still have a really hard time accepting it, do you think Ocean's Kai may have changed things to be accurate? I honestly would love to see a proper release by another company, and see if fans would throw a fit like some people say, which I doubt.

I think you're pretty off the mark there.

For starters... You'll hear people complain about EVERYTHING, even the stupidest things. Hell, I've complained about stupid things here, constantly. What the fuck gives me the right to criticise the modern Funi cast when I'm clearly just still too attached to the Ocean cast to accept anyone else? Why did I derail a thread for like a page and a half to argue with ABED about whether or not video games are art when it really doesn't matter what either of us think?... Ultimately, this forum is just a place where we share our opinions. And sometimes, opinions suck. I know for a fact some people to this day insist on referring to the cyborgs as "Jinzoningen", which I find utterly stupid. Does that mean fans who prefer a more accurate take are all crazy madmen who would insist on such weird terminology? No. It just means I've encountered some people whose view I disagree with. That's just life.

As for Google correcting searches of the Japanese names to the dub names... Well, yeah. The dub names are the most common in the English fandom. The dub was what aired on TV, meanwhile the sub -- until like 6 years ago -- was only available to people dedicated enough to buy the DVDs (or pirate it through means more complicated than Googling "dragon ball z free stream online" and clicking the first search result). But they're often so different, that if you're one of the few people who watched subbed and is thus not hugely familiar with the dub terminology for this or that character or attack, you'll be left scratching your head with certain google searches.

But, finally, "The English-speaking fandom doesn't want Japanese Dragon Ball."...
Well, you're mostly right. Because most of the English-speaking fandom grew up on the dub, and thus tend to just watch the dub... But here's the secret -- most English-speaking fans don't care.

Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone care about the cast switchover in 1999? Not really. Most kids watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore dub elitists, did anyone mind that you could only watch Super subbed for ages? Not really. Most people watching were just excited for more Dragon Ball.
Aside from the hardcore fans, did anyone in the UK or Canada mind that the DVDs didn't contain the dub they grew up on? Well, much as I hate to admit it... Not really. They were just happy to own the show on DVD. Probably a lot of UK fans would've been happy about having the right dub, but a company being unable to go the extra mile, sad as it is, is hardly the end of the world. Similarly, most fans probably didn't even bother switching to the US score track on their DBZ DVDs, and likely didn't notice the partial redubbing, they just put it on and watched whatever came on.

It's always worth being aware of the fact that, ultimately, what we're saying here on Kanzenshuu is niche nerd debates about the granular things that no casual fan cares about in the slightest. And ultimately, a lot of it doesn't matter much. Do I REALLY care that much about how the different Dragon Ball casts compare?... Well, not really. I grew up on the Ocean dub, and the dubs are generally a less faithful experience than the Japanese, so I just enjoy the Ocean dub and the Japanese version, and... Well, there we are. It's not really a problem. I wish Ocean would do more so I could have more of my preferred dub cast (I'd especially like to see the still-unreleased Ocean Kai dub; hopefully Wow Unlimited gets their act together sometime in the next couple of years ), but it's not like Ocean didn't do like 200 episodes of the show... And it's not like there aren't 508 episodes of the Japanese version out there, plus Kai, plus Super, plus the movies, plus the specials...

I'm rambling, but the point is... Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball, to most people. Even to the hardcore fans, a lot of complaints about one version or another come from someone who primarily watches a different version. And ultimately, much as it's fun to talk about the granular things in the franchise here on Kanzenshuu, it's a goofy martial arts cartoon for children. Most people don't care.
So, all this is a roundabout way of saying... I don't think the average fan really cares about whether they're getting Japanese Dragon Ball, Funimation's Dragon Ball, Ocean's Dragon Ball, AB Groupe's Dragon Ball, or whatever else. We know the difference, but most people either don't know, or don't care. So, I think it's naive to say people particularly want one version more than any other version just because one version's terminology is far more common than the others'.

FWIW, no, this post isn't me resigning to Funi's changes being fine... I'd still prefer a more accurate dub more in line with the Pioneer or Blue Water stuff, but I've recently realised that I've been taking this all far too seriously, and overstating a lot of things, to the point of getting pretty inflammatory about a lot of shit that really doesn't matter (at one point, I called Funi's home video department "Evil" for not giving us 4:3, un-DNR'd DVDs/BDs... And then doubled down on it when called out on how silly that was! ), even criticising a lot of Funi actors whose performances are fine, but I've been so caught up in voicing my preference for other versions, I've ended up talking shit about the ones I don't prefer, which is... Shitty. And I feel like sharing my feelings on this may be a worthwhile contribution to this thread. IDK. I think it's easy to get caught up in the granularity of this all, and some of us (or maybe just me? ) need to remember now and then that none of this really matters that much, and probably the things we're criticising, we're not even watching anyway.

FWIW, even though Z is loaded up with all of Funi's worst script changes, I still unabashedly, unapologetically, unironically LOVE the Ocean dubs. And if Ocean started up dubbing Dragon Ball again, but used Funi's scripts... I'd still probably love it. And for people who are exactly like me except they grew up in the USA on the Funi dub, their version of that is happening right now, and they do love it. The thing is, one or two things you don't like doesn't make something great into something crap. And it's fine for you to prefer one version of a thing over another; you don't have to then condemn the other as being shitty or otherwise inferior, invalid, unwanted, etc. And it usually isn't shitty, inferior, invalid, etc. Funi's Kai dub, for instance, I've lambasted a lot recently for various script changes, and often downplayed its quality, but it's a solid piece of dubbing that was clearly made by people who cared a lot about doing Dragon Ball dubbing right. I particularly have always been impressed by how good Chris Sabat is as Vegeta in Kai. I still have criticisms... But I'd have criticisms with everything. Nothing is perfect. And for all its faults, Funi's Kai dub is the best English dub of the Z storyline to watch, and I should probably shut up about the actors involved, 'cause at worst, my opinion is that they're a miscasting, which is likely a controversial take, and ultimately just means I don't think they're suited to the role... So even if I'm right, the actor's doing nothing wrong, and it's just kinda mean to pick on them...


... My point is, ultimately, this thread is about a lot of arguably very granular, arguably unimportant things about something a lot of people enjoy very much. IMO, these criticisms are still valid opinions to voice; just as valid as discussions along the line of "What do you think of the Moro arc so far?" or "What's the best Dragon Ball storyline?" or pretty much anything else we talk about on these forums. Just as long as people don't go to far and get into inflammatory territory.

So, I suggest you don't take any ideas of what the broader fanbase actually wants very seriously, because ultimately the conclusion you'll come to by going on that line of thinking is "Dragon Ball, on a streaming service I'm already subscribed to, with all my favourite characters present, and a big-ass fight with a fun villain." That's kind of all that most people want. Anything more than that is nerdy granular stuff that's fun to discuss but doesn't matter all that much... So, go forth and discuss nerdy granular stuff.

Apologies for the ramble. I may have gone too far in a few places.

I actually enjoyed reading that, I think you are spot on in a lot of points. The whole "Jinzoningen" thing is so stupid, just call them Cyborgs or Androids, I understand being accurate, but if someones going to call them by the Japanese names and then insist those names are used in a dub, then there's no point because the whole point of the English dub is to translate to English.

I personally don't think you're doing anything wrong by criticizing certain VA's, VA's do have some say in what happens, like what Sean Schemmel has mentioned, it's up to him and his director.

The thing that gets me most is that it's completely possible to have an accurate dub, there's no need to change things that need no changing, there's no need to change up dialogue if it sounds fine and is accurate, but Funimation does it anyway. And the Pioneer dub you were talking about that you love, it's funny because I recently watched Tree of Godly Might in that dub, and it's more accurate than Funi's dub, I actually really enjoyed it. I think the big thing to realize is the difference between you and other people is that other people just want the series to keep being spoiled, and I don't use that word lightly, Son in the Super dub really reminds of me of an internet tough guy trying to appeal to a bunch of high school MMA Fighters that beat on their little brothers.

Everything you said about that everyone has a right to enjoy what they enjoy is certainly correct, however, we had a chance for a really bright future for Dragon Ball, and now we've almost lost that moment, because Funimation wants to appeal to old fans, and bring new ones in conditioned on their dub.

[Robo4900]

It's not Toei's sole fault I don't think. It's probably come from higher

There's no one higher than Toei.

Spoiler:

since FUNi's dub spellings have been used for everyone now. It's not a Western problem it's a worldwide one now including Japan. Broly was essentially when this new initiative started when they didn't spell it Broli then all of overseas including Asian countries were subjecting to all the dub spellings and so the forced dub spellings were in hindsight not that much of a shock. Then of March this year the worst happened and the dub spellings finally breached Japan but what makes it even worse was they started toying with the idea of even dropping "Son" from Goku's name in Japan... but thankfully it seemed to have been a one time thing.

The problem is even bigger for Japan because they love English so much any opportunity and they'll use English. It's only June but already have been subjected to so much "Vegito" and "Frieza" it's disgusting...

FUNi even reverted Vegetto and yet the ironic thing is everyone is now forced to use "Vegito". What a world we live in.

To be honest, in the west, Funi's spellings are so ingrained, it makes sense for Toei to sort of "make it official" for English merchandise. It just really bothers me that they'd enforce it on the subtitle tracks too.

I still have a really hard time accepting it, do you think Ocean's Kai may have changed things to be accurate? I honestly would love to see a proper release by another company, and see if fans would throw a fit like some people say, which I doubt.

By all accounts, Ocean Kai was scripted independently of Funi's dub, and is a very faithful translation. We know for a fact they pronounce Namek closer to how it's pronounced in Japanese (that's Sean Schemmel on the left, and on the right is Scott McNeil, who's in the Ocean dubs as Piccolo, Jheese, Tao, South Kaio, Dabra, Majin Boo, Elder Kaioshin, #16, Dr Brief, Farmer With Shotgun, and various minor roles), and the banner in the Kai episode 1 recap was edited to have a romanisation written on it, "Tenkaichi Budoukai"... (As we know, Funi's TV edit of Kai used Ocean's edited video master, with the Yamamoto score and Funi's voices put on top, so stuff like this banner gives us hints about Ocean's dub) So, I imagine it did "fix" a lot of things, by virtue of being its own translation.

Probably if we see Ocean Kai (which I still think we will, someday), we'll see it has accuracy about on par with Blue Water GT and/or the Pioneer movies. Though GT is probably a more apt comparison, since I think only a TV-safe version was produced; no uncut version.

I actually enjoyed reading that, I think you are spot on in a lot of points. The whole "Jinzoningen" thing is so stupid, just call them Cyborgs or Androids, I understand being accurate, but if someones going to call them by the Japanese names and then insist those names are used in a dub, then there's no point because the whole point of the English dub is to translate to English.

Thanks!

And yeah, absolutely!! It's a translation, the point is that an English-speaker can just watch it, and understand what's going on just as well as if a Japanese person watched the original. Obscuring stuff behind romanisations in ways that are utterly incomprehensible is just ridiculous. Granted, the term doesn't have a precise English equivalent, but that pops up everywhere in translation; that's why it's an art, not a science. I do take issue with adapting it to "Androids", since most of them are cyborgs... But Cell is neither. And #16 actually is an android, not a cyborg, IIRC as is 13 or 15 or something? Maybe #8 too?
"Artificial Humans" is what the subs use, though I've never liked that adaptation either; much as Simmons' subtitles are an excellent, accurate translation of the original, Simmons wrote them to help you understand what the Japanese is saying, he didn't tend to put much work in making the subs flow naturally as dialogue, and "Artificial Humans" is a pretty great example of this; it's not perfect either, since Cell is not exactly human, artificial or otherwise, but it gets the point across better than any other way of referring to them that I've seen, so for a subtitle track, it gets the job done without resorting to clunky TL notes.

I personally don't think you're doing anything wrong by criticizing certain VA's, VA's do have some say in what happens, like what Sean Schemmel has mentioned, it's up to him and his director.

I think Funi tend to give their VAs a lot of freedom to try stuff, is the thing. In Sean Schemmel's case, I would actually say this is for the better. I'm an Ocean fanboy through-and-through, so my Goku is still Peter Kelamis, but Schemmel's been voicing the character for 20 years, and if you see interviews, he clearly cares VERY deeply about the character... I think Schemmel can come off a bit odd to some people, because he's a rather philosophical, serious actor; he takes everything VERY seriously... The positive effect this has on Funi's dub, though, is that -- as he has made a point of saying in a few interviews in the past -- he does work with his director if he thinks a line isn't quite right, and they'll reference a direct translation to see if they're really getting the spirit of it right, and if necessary, alter it. I imagine the difference is rarely big, but clearly he goes the extra mile.

All this is a long way round of me pointing out that, if it wasn't for Schemmel, we wouldn't have had the "I am Son Goku!" line in Kai.

So... Ultimately, I think it's clear all the actors care a lot about the work they're doing, and they are always putting in a serious effort to make their work the best it can be. There's no problem with not particularly favouring certain castings, but particularly in a case like mine, where effectively I'm comparing every single voice to a completely different cast of actors that I grew up on, it's not exactly fair of me to criticise them, and it makes me a real dick to say shit like that, I think.

It's easy to look at a dub with accuracy issues and throw shit at everyone involved, but to be honest, everyone's probably just trying their best to make a good thing, and in the actors' case, I think it's pretty unfair to say anything against them. Especially coming from an Ocean fanboy like myself.

The thing that gets me most is that it's completely possible to have an accurate dub, there's no need to change things that need no changing, there's no need to change up dialogue if it sounds fine and is accurate, but Funimation does it anyway.

Yeah. That definitely still frustrates me.

And the Pioneer dub you were talking about that you love, it's funny because I recently watched Tree of Godly Might in that dub, and it's more accurate than Funi's dub, I actually really enjoyed it. I think the big thing to realize is the difference between you and other people is that other people just want the series to keep being spoiled, and I don't use that word lightly, Son in the Super dub really reminds of me of an internet tough guy trying to appeal to a bunch of high school MMA Fighters that beat on their little brothers.

Yeah, I mean Pioneer's dub of Tree Of Might was an original translation of the Japanese script, written by a group of experienced script adaptors dedicated to making a faithful dub. Funimation's was a rewrite of the Saban script, with both the rewrite and the original being written with the idea that the Japanese version is just source material from which to write a new show for American kids to watch on TV and buy toys of. (In fact, I'd bet the in-house Funi rewrite was done without anyone referencing the Japanese script)
So, while Pioneer's dub is a faithful translation of the original, Funimation's is very much in line with what they were putting on TV at the time; which is to say, it's not very accurate, and the scriptwriters were generally encouraged to throw in whatever they thought felt right, and to pad out the dialogue as much as possible because of the thought process Funi had at the time that American children have a short attention span.

I'm glad Funi are better now, but it's clear they don't have any interest in being as faithful as the Pioneer dub, which is quite sad to me.

I don't think anyone really wants the show to be "spoiled". I think Chris Sabat and everyone else at Funimation do honestly think that what they're doing makes the show better, but I think the fans -- the casual fans, the vast majority of viewers -- don't really know or care about the difference. They just kinda enjoy it either way. And in fairness, much as the hardcore fans who prefer a faithful version hate the idea, Sabat does somewhat have a point... Probably the hardcore dub-only fans are loving the dub, not just as the voices they prefer voicing the show they love, but also getting a slightly different take on some scenes.

It's kind of annoying. I disagree with Sabat's attitude on the script changes, but the people like me who disagree with that attitude probably aren't even watching it anyway, so arguably our views don't matter... Though I would argue the changes aren't really adding anything, 'cause most people would enjoy it changed or unchanged... Honestly, I think even the hardcore dub fans would still really dig it if Funi went a more faithful route; long as Schemmel's still Goku, Sabat's still Vegeta, and long as the names don't all suddenly get changed such that the fans can't understand the show anymore, I think the dub fans would enjoy it all the same.
So... IDK. Most people don't care, so you can get away with doing it either way... So obviously, I would argue the better way is to do it faithfully, but obviously a hardcore dub-fan would argue it doesn't matter, and Funi can do what they want. But, in fairness, I'm a sub/Ocean fan, so it doesn't really matter to me either way, really. I have no horse in this race.

Everything you said about that everyone has a right to enjoy what they enjoy is certainly correct, however, we had a chance for a really bright future for Dragon Ball, and now we've almost lost that moment, because Funimation wants to appeal to old fans, and bring new ones in conditioned on their dub.

In fairness, Funi's dub isn't that inaccurate. If we're talking purely script-wise, Funi's dub is perfectly serviceable if you can't/won't watch subbed. And really, these days, they're quite well performed too (these actors have been playing these characters for 20 years, and Funi aren't just pulling nobodies off the street anymore, they get the best actors from Dallas and LA (and New York?) that their budget will allow). And they don't change the score anymore. And they don't drastically change the personalities like they used to back in the day. So... IDK. The main point of a dub is to make an enjoyable product that is pretty representative of the original, and Funi's modern dubbing does succeed in that. They could be a lot more faithful script-wise, but it's not like they're throwing in "Brilliant scientist!" shit anymore.

I'm a strong proponent of "Always demand better" and "Better =/= good" and such, but I wouldn't say Funi's script changes are ruining "a change for a really bright future for Dragon Ball". I don't like that the English dubs of Dragon Ball have accuracy problems that don't need to be there, but I doubt that's going to change in our lifetimes; it's pretty clear Funimation don't have much interest in listening to the hardcore fans (remember the 30th anniversary sets?), and this is very much a complaint exclusive to the hardcore fans, so I personally don't see much point in devoting any mental energy to it.

[LostTimeLord]

I would presume a British equivalent would be a midlands/brummy accent

As a Brit, I've imagined how Goku would sound in British English many times. The thing is, we have sooo many "country bumpkin" type accents it's beyond a joke.

Now I'm imagining Goku as a Yam Yam and I'll get nothing productive done today.

Yow a' worked it out yet? Om the saiyan who came all the way from earth just so I could lamp ya. Om the warrior ya've 'eard o' in legends, pure o' 'eart n' woke by rage, tha's wha I om. Om the super saiyan Son Goku.

[Aim]

To be honest, in the west, Funi's spellings are so ingrained, it makes sense for Toei to sort of "make it official" for English merchandise. It just really bothers me that they'd enforce it on the subtitle tracks too.

Surely there's a way to slowly integrate the new spellings? I'd give it max 10 years to set in fully, minimum 5 years, maybe even 2 if we're lucky.

By all accounts, Ocean Kai was scripted independently of Funi's dub, and is a very faithful translation. We know for a fact they pronounce Namek closer to how it's pronounced in Japanese (that's Sean Schemmel on the left, and on the right is Scott McNeil, who's in the Ocean dubs as Piccolo, Jheese, Tao, South Kaio, Dabra, Majin Boo, Elder Kaioshin, #16, Dr Brief, Farmer With Shotgun, and various minor roles), and the banner in the Kai episode 1 recap was edited to have a romanisation written on it, "Tenkaichi Budoukai"... (As we know, Funi's TV edit of Kai used Ocean's edited video master, with the Yamamoto score and Funi's voices put on top, so stuff like this banner gives us hints about Ocean's dub) So, I imagine it did "fix" a lot of things, by virtue of being its own translation.

Probably if we see Ocean Kai (which I still think we will, someday), we'll see it has accuracy about on par with Blue Water GT and/or the Pioneer movies. Though GT is probably a more apt comparison, since I think only a TV-safe version was produced; no uncut version.

What was it about Sean saying that Ocean's Kai was crap? Aw man, I really want to see Oceans's Kai now, I need to see a Dragon Ball that's given that kind of treatment!

Thanks!

And yeah, absolutely!! It's a translation, the point is that an English-speaker can just watch it, and understand what's going on just as well as if a Japanese person watched the original. Obscuring stuff behind romanisations in ways that are utterly incomprehensible is just ridiculous. Granted, the term doesn't have a precise English equivalent, but that pops up everywhere in translation; that's why it's an art, not a science. I do take issue with adapting it to "Androids", since most of them are cyborgs... But Cell is neither. And #16 actually is an android, not a cyborg, IIRC as is 13 or 15 or something? Maybe #8 too?
"Artificial Humans" is what the subs use, though I've never liked that adaptation either; much as Simmons' subtitles are an excellent, accurate translation of the original, Simmons wrote them to help you understand what the Japanese is saying, he didn't tend to put much work in making the subs flow naturally as dialogue, and "Artificial Humans" is a pretty great example of this; it's not perfect either, since Cell is not exactly human, artificial or otherwise, but it gets the point across better than any other way of referring to them that I've seen, so for a subtitle track, it gets the job done without resorting to clunky TL notes.

I do know of the whole Android controversy, I can't remember if I read this in the manga or not, or if this is just Viz, but didn't the characters have a few discussions on whether the 17 and 18 are actually Cyborgs as opposed to Androids? I could have sworn I saw that somewhere, I'll have to go back and check.

I think Funi tend to give their VAs a lot of freedom to try stuff, is the thing. In Sean Schemmel's case, I would actually say this is for the better. I'm an Ocean fanboy through-and-through, so my Goku is still Peter Kelamis, but Schemmel's been voicing the character for 20 years, and if you see interviews, he clearly cares VERY deeply about the character... I think Schemmel can come off a bit odd to some people, because he's a rather philosophical, serious actor; he takes everything VERY seriously... The positive effect this has on Funi's dub, though, is that -- as he has made a point of saying in a few interviews in the past -- he does work with his director if he thinks a line isn't quite right, and they'll reference a direct translation to see if they're really getting the spirit of it right, and if necessary, alter it. I imagine the difference is rarely big, but clearly he goes the extra mile.

All this is a long way round of me pointing out that, if it wasn't for Schemmel, we wouldn't have had the "I am Son Goku!" line in Kai.

So... Ultimately, I think it's clear all the actors care a lot about the work they're doing, and they are always putting in a serious effort to make their work the best it can be. There's no problem with not particularly favouring certain castings, but particularly in a case like mine, where effectively I'm comparing every single voice to a completely different cast of actors that I grew up on, it's not exactly fair of me to criticise them, and it makes me a real dick to say shit like that, I think.

It's easy to look at a dub with accuracy issues and throw shit at everyone involved, but to be honest, everyone's probably just trying their best to make a good thing, and in the actors' case, I think it's pretty unfair to say anything against them. Especially coming from an Ocean fanboy like myself.

I definitely agree, Sean Schemmel is very philosophical and seems like a sweet guy, who has had so much stress he has had quite a few bumpy rides with fans, however, I definitely cannot stand the whole "Bravado" voice he puts on for Son in Super, the Vegeta traits being thrown in, just everything that really is a parallel to Nozawa's performance in some ways, like, I understand how Son is meant to be in Super, but it's incredibly different, heck, even inconsistent in the dub, and that's probably my biggest pet peeve, is the way lines are delivered, because all in all, line delivery is just as important as the actual dialogue in my opinion, they're like the two halves that come in to establish the moment.

Yeah. That definitely still frustrates me.

I could be off the mark here, but do you know anything about how dubbing rights works? Because I thought that if an English licencor has bought rights to DB, then doesn't that mean only they can do the English dub for it? Or can different companies depending on different regions do dubs? I ask this because I do have a tiny bit of hope that someone will see this and possibly be part of a dubbing company who may consider taking up what we've been talking about.

Yeah, I mean Pioneer's dub of Tree Of Might was an original translation of the Japanese script, written by a group of experienced script adaptors dedicated to making a faithful dub. Funimation's was a rewrite of the Saban script, with both the rewrite and the original being written with the idea that the Japanese version is just source material from which to write a new show for American kids to watch on TV and buy toys of. (In fact, I'd bet the in-house Funi rewrite was done without anyone referencing the Japanese script)
So, while Pioneer's dub is a faithful translation of the original, Funimation's is very much in line with what they were putting on TV at the time; which is to say, it's not very accurate, and the scriptwriters were generally encouraged to throw in whatever they thought felt right, and to pad out the dialogue as much as possible because of the thought process Funi had at the time that American children have a short attention span.

I thought so! While watching it I thought to myself, "This is awfully similar, if not completely accurate to the original is some areas.", they did a great job! Not to mention Peter Kelamis, god he's been the closest to an actual representation of a Son Goku.

I sometimes get the feeling that with more Dragon Ball Super stuff, they are trying to appeal to this 'other' crowd, and in my experience, they are just the most toxic people.

I'm glad Funi are better now, but it's clear they don't have any interest in being as faithful as the Pioneer dub, which is quite sad to me.

I don't think anyone really wants the show to be "spoiled". I think Chris Sabat and everyone else at Funimation do honestly think that what they're doing makes the show better, but I think the fans -- the casual fans, the vast majority of viewers -- don't really know or care about the difference. They just kinda enjoy it either way. And in fairness, much as the hardcore fans who prefer a faithful version hate the idea, Sabat does somewhat have a point... Probably the hardcore dub-only fans are loving the dub, not just as the voices they prefer voicing the show they love, but also getting a slightly different take on some scenes.

I guess so, but then if the vast majority don't care or don't know any better, I still feel a slow transaction to an accurate dub would do the fandom some real good, because when I talk with people about Dragon Ball, there is a large disconnect between the franchise I know, and what they know, so that tells me there's something not being done right.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Chris and the others want the best for the series, but then they should really step up their game instead of step down, Kai was an improvement, then they went and took liberties with Super, it just shouldn't work that way, especially considering Super is not that hard to access now, and its also the latest we've had on an actual series.

It's kind of annoying. I disagree with Sabat's attitude on the script changes, but the people like me who disagree with that attitude probably aren't even watching it anyway, so arguably our views don't matter... Though I would argue the changes aren't really adding anything, 'cause most people would enjoy it changed or unchanged... Honestly, I think even the hardcore dub fans would still really dig it if Funi went a more faithful route; long as Schemmel's still Goku, Sabat's still Vegeta, and long as the names don't all suddenly get changed such that the fans can't understand the show anymore, I think the dub fans would enjoy it all the same.
So... IDK. Most people don't care, so you can get away with doing it either way... So obviously, I would argue the better way is to do it faithfully, but obviously a hardcore dub-fan would argue it doesn't matter, and Funi can do what they want. But, in fairness, I'm a sub/Ocean fan, so it doesn't really matter to me either way, really. I have no horse in this race.

I grew up with Funi, though I do remember the occasional Ocean dub slipping on TV, everything sort of changed when I started to see Dragon Ball more in Japanese, because around that time, this was the era of kids acting like "tough guys" and pushing all this bravado all over the place, not to mention those scummy cage fighters, seeing a character like Son Goku, someone who's so naive, yet so positive, even in stressful situations, someone who wants to push their limits and become better than they were yesterday, someone who even when spoken trash to, he still never goes too far, he has mercy, and doesn't show much "true" arrogance like say Vegeta. If anything, when Son has shown arrogance or teasing attitudes, it's to pump up his opponent, even with the fight with Hit, he was sly, but he knew Hit was very dangerous, but a lot of that is thrown out in Super's dub, where he is incredibly arrogant, and all it took was adding one bit of dialogue, and changing the tone, and it changed the way the character presented, that's when I couldn't really sit back and watch the dub anymore, and this is coming from someone who was incredibly excited to see Sean and co appear on Super.

In fairness, Funi's dub isn't that inaccurate. If we're talking purely script-wise, Funi's dub is perfectly serviceable if you can't/won't watch subbed. And really, these days, they're quite well performed too (these actors have been playing these characters for 20 years, and Funi aren't just pulling nobodies off the street anymore, they get the best actors from Dallas and LA (and New York?) that their budget will allow). And they don't change the score anymore. And they don't drastically change the personalities like they used to back in the day. So... IDK. The main point of a dub is to make an enjoyable product that is pretty representative of the original, and Funi's modern dubbing does succeed in that. They could be a lot more faithful script-wise, but it's not like they're throwing in "Brilliant scientist!" shit anymore.

I'm a strong proponent of "Always demand better" and "Better =/= good" and such, but I wouldn't say Funi's script changes are ruining "a change for a really bright future for Dragon Ball". I don't like that the English dubs of Dragon Ball have accuracy problems that don't need to be there, but I doubt that's going to change in our lifetimes; it's pretty clear Funimation don't have much interest in listening to the hardcore fans (remember the 30th anniversary sets?), and this is very much a complaint exclusive to the hardcore fans, so I personally don't see much point in devoting any mental energy to it.

The scripts aren't too bad, I do feel things are changed for no apparent reason, and things like "Hmph" are added in to dialogues involving Son, which as I said before, really gets me, not to mention the tone in which the lines are delivered. Funimation has done I guess the best they ever will do, like you said, so you're right, there's no point devoting energy to the subject, but it's fun to discuss though, I'm up very late replying because I haven't had a chance, but that's okay.

I just have hope that possibly a new dub will come up sometime, and a new generation will come along with that dub, because in all honesty, I feel that we could have had a much better road if Funi didn't try to appeal to fans who to be honest, weren't in the majority anymore, sure, they would have had a moan if Funi did it accurately, but the new fans wouldn't care/know any better, and I probably wouldn't be having a hard time when it comes to discussing Dragon Ball with a few friends.

Sorry if there's any typos here, really tired, I'll come back tomorrow and double check through the whole thing and correct anything I got wrong or any sentences that don't make sense, or bad grammar, like what I'm doing now, lol.