Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

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zekken1
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Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by zekken1 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:14 pm

I recently rewatched some good parts of Legend of Korra and even though the show ended of in a bad note. Some of the earlier stuff were very mature and those parts were received well after the more childlikeness of the original show.

So the question here is that do you think that if Dragon Ball Super were to return it would benefit greatly from going a more seinen route like Legend Of Korra did?

(And before some of you say "that's not like dragon ball at all, stop forcing your own prejudice" take a look at DBS: Broly, what Toriyama did to Broly exploring more mature elements like child abuse)
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri May 29, 2020 1:05 pm

Do you have any examples of what you might mean?
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by KBABZ » Fri May 29, 2020 1:07 pm

I personally would say no, that may be a bit heavy for Dragon Ball.

I will say though is that Dragon Ball does have a problem with not capitalizing on a lot of storyline potential regarding its characters. For example, Goku had died and gone to Other World twice now, but in neither of those does he ever meet Gohan and talk with him about all the stuff he's been through, particularly his Saiyan heritage. When he died in the Cell Arc, we never got anything regarding Goku meeting with Bardock. We don't explore Gohan's feelings about having two strong father figures. We never got to explore Caulifla's Universe at all. How about seeing Grandpa Gohan and Ox-King train under Roshi? How about the vacuum left in the galaxy after Goku killed Frieza?

About the closest thing we got to this was Trunks: The Story and the Bardock special. But by and large, Dragon Ball very rarely has storylines and character arcs that go much beyond the surface level to really explore and capitalize, it's more about "ADVENTURE! : D" and "FIGHTING! D :<". There's some good shit in that but it's very rarely deep, and if it is a lot of the time I don't even believe it was intended!

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 29, 2020 1:16 pm

I think before any story is pitched, the writer should answer these basic questions:

1- What new elements does it bring to the franchise ?

2- How does it develop the main cast ?

3- Does it have themes worth exploring ?

4- Are the new characters likable and interesting ?

If the answer to these 4 questions are yes, and that story just happens to be a Seinen, then it should be adapted.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 29, 2020 1:37 pm

I typically like seeing people write the kind of stories they like to make. I'm open to new ideas.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Vijay » Fri May 29, 2020 1:42 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:16 pm
I think before any story is pitched, the writer should answer these basic questions:

1- What new elements does it bring to the franchise ?

2- How does it develop the main cast ?

3- Does it have themes worth exploring ?

4- Are the new characters likable and interesting ?

If the answer to these 4 questions are yes, and that story just happens to be a Seinen, then it should be adapted.
Hehe. DBS be like:

1. Some palette swap wud do. Kaioken ripoff, then Toriko-ripoff, finally Ultra Instinct🤣

2. Fck it. Just Goku & Veggie wud do

3. Themes...sorry, we don't do that here. Only asspull power-ups allowed😅

4. Fck it. Let's turn even our poster boy Son Goku into unlikable, annoying, idiotic, brain-damaged sociopath

On topic, DB does not have to adopt seinen storyline. If it capitalizes on its strengths alone should do wonders. Remember glorious Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo Daimou, Saiyan, Frieza & Android Saga's? Those weren't seinen.

It's just you need brains & dedication to come-up with genuinely inspiring & complex storyline that it resonates to it's audience, be it manga reader or anime viewer.

Frieza has now become a meme, thx to ROF & ToP. But boi...was he a beast back during his Namek invasion. Cell's eerie vibe when he absorbs humans and seemingly dark fate to impede our Goku, Gohan
& Majin Vegeta pre-Majin Boo's revival is beyond words

Such writing is needed. Not crappy God's are divine, holy...but I saw some lower barbaric creatures having sex so I wanna erase every Tom & Dick in the universe as I'm sure they all have wild sex party...or my nakama-tachi left my sorry ass, so I need power to apply cream to my wounded sorry ass kinda ROFL storylines🤣

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 29, 2020 1:55 pm

Vijay wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:42 pm
Hehe. DBS be like:

1. Some palette swap wud do. Kaioken ripoff, then Toriko-ripoff, finally Ultra Instinct🤣

2. Fck it. Just Goku & Veggie wud do

3. Themes...sorry, we don't do that here. Only asspull power-ups allowed😅

4. Fck it. Let's turn even our poster boy Son Goku into unlikable, annoying, idiotic, brain-damaged sociopath
What makes things worse, is that BOG answered all 4 questions with flying colors. It was such a great start to this revival, but things just went downhill with each new story added.
Vijay wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:42 pm
Frieza was he a beast back during his Namek invasion. Cell's eerie vibe when he absorbs humans and seemingly dark fate to impede our Goku, Gohan & Majin Vegeta pre-Majin Boo's revival is beyond words

Such writing is needed. Not crappy God's are divine, holy...but I saw some lower barbaric creatures having sex so I wanna erase every Tom & Dick in the universe as I'm sure they all have wild sex party...or my nakama-tachi left my sorry ass, so I need power to apply cream to my wounded sorry ass kinda ROFL storylines🤣
It's hard to believe fans can look at Super and the original and say they're the same, and even questioning how anyone could say otherwise. In order for DB to go back to its story focused roots, much less introduce Seinen stories, it'll need to replace every writer currently attached, including Toriyama, as they're more than satisfied with writing the bare minimum.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri May 29, 2020 2:18 pm

Tomioka Atsuhiro was the head writer of the series' that made Pokemon exciting and story-driven all while being the head writer of the Samurai 7 animated series. They doesn't 'settle', they work within the confines of what they're allowed to do. Similarly, King Ryuu's first credits were as head writer of Disk Wars: Avengers, where they personally wrote most of the episodes themselves. "They're just settling!"? They're getting fucked in the ass on the off-chance they can someday have more influence.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by zekken1 » Fri May 29, 2020 2:37 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 1:05 pm
Do you have any examples of what you might mean?
A simple example could be; lets say Vegeta visits Sadala meets with the king but turns out the Planet of Sadala have a discriminatory system, like they discriminate against low-class saiyans similiar to what they did in Planet Vegeta. This basically shades light on Racism in our world, just disguised in the DB world. And then Vegeta through what he learned hands on by Goku, that low class can surpass Elite, tries to in his own way to change the planet for the better.

(This is just an example, Sadala is obviously not like this since they are more peacefull than what Planet Vegeta was)
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 29, 2020 2:52 pm

zekken1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 2:37 pm
Lets say Vegeta visits Sadala meets with the king but turns out the Planet of Sadala have a discriminatory system, like they discriminate against low-class saiyans similiar to what they did in Planet Vegeta.

Sadala is obviously not like this since they are more peacefull than what Planet Vegeta was.
Toriyama has been moving as far away from the Saiyans original concept as possible, so this will probably happen.

What I'm hoping will happen, is that as Goku and Vegeta spend more time there, they start to discover that the planet isn't as peaceful as it claims. It has a very dark history that starts to catch up with them, revealing that they're no better than the Saiyans of U7, maybe even being worse. This is expecting too much from modern DB though, so chances are it's a happy go lucky planet that'll just focus on fun fights and transformations.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by zekken1 » Fri May 29, 2020 3:00 pm

Yes that's the question would Dragon ball benefit from going deeper than just surface level agony and really explore the psyche and history were cruelty has taken place.
Although Goku & Vegeta are the mains of Dragon ball it's really great that after all these years there are still other interesting Fighters like Broly that are stronger than them :thumbup:

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri May 29, 2020 3:03 pm

zekken1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:00 pm
Yes that's the question would Dragon ball benefit from going deeper than just surface level agony and really explore the psyche and history were cruelty has taken place.
We got a lot of this in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, so it wouldn't be completely new to DB. The issue is that the current writers want to move as far away from that as possible. Even Broly's new story was toned down compared to the original.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Vijay » Fri May 29, 2020 3:28 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:03 pm
zekken1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:00 pm
Yes that's the question would Dragon ball benefit from going deeper than just surface level agony and really explore the psyche and history were cruelty has taken place.
We got a lot of this in the Saiyan and Namek arcs, so it wouldn't be completely new to DB. The issue is that the current writers want to move as far away from that as possible. Even Broly's new story was toned down compared to the original.
DBS Broly was watered-down version with storyline merely a haphazard rehash of past specials & films. Streamlining to cater new generation fanbase is not a prob. But do it in intricate, detailed manner that honors source/original material while also adding value to your own product. Take MadHouse HXH2011 for instance. While admittedly 90's HXH was a lot more darker, Madhouse's 2011 version did marvelous job creating dark & downright rivetting moments throughout the show.

It's crazy to think how Toriyama once built a world with endless possibilities of new characters, threats, planets, universe...and these mfkers are scratching their heads to merely create some tension/drama within existing Toriyama's DragonBall world😅

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by ABED » Fri May 29, 2020 4:49 pm

DB didn't really explore child abuse. It used it as more or less a background quasi-motivator. The most it has to say on the subject is "child abuse is bad".
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Zestanor » Fri May 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Seinen just means they don't print the furigana. I'm not sure whatDB could have done to make it more "mature" that would fit the tone.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun May 31, 2020 5:07 am

"Seinen" is a pretty heavy thing, though. Heavier than what Dragon Ball's known for. Dragon Ball is fundamentally for young children; it'd make about as much sense as someone wanting to make a TV-MA version of, say, Powerpuff Girls. Now I know that's what happened with Samurai Jack, but it's so much more egregious with Dragon Ball in a way that probably isn't well understood by Western fans.

Even early Dragon Ball, the point where much of its comedy was rooted in pedophilia and things that would come across as deeply politically incorrect nowadays, including with bare exposed teenage boobs and kiddy penis, was squarely shonen. Maybe a very South Parkish-before-South Park shonen, very raunchy, but reflecting differences in national ideals all the same. Seinen manga and anime today probably wouldn't easily get away with overt pedophilia like Dragon Ball once did, but it certainly goes further in other aspects.

Dragon Ball's the kind of franchise that features its characters making educational material, elementary school adverts, traffic cop promos, and would probably have games on Leapster if those were still around. Like, it is hilariously, outrageously for kids. Shifting it to seinen might've been possible in 1985 or '86 if Toriyama thought it'd make more money, but that ship has long sailed. It's sailed so far that it returned to port and set sail again, and then came back to port a third time.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun May 31, 2020 12:30 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 5:07 am
"Seinen" is a pretty heavy thing, though. Heavier than what Dragon Ball's known for. Dragon Ball is fundamentally for young children; it'd make about as much sense as someone wanting to make a TV-MA version of, say, Powerpuff Girls. Now I know that's what happened with Samurai Jack, but it's so much more egregious with Dragon Ball in a way that probably isn't well understood by Western fans.

Even early Dragon Ball, the point where much of its comedy was rooted in pedophilia and things that would come across as deeply politically incorrect nowadays, including with bare exposed teenage boobs and kiddy penis, was squarely shonen. Maybe a very South Parkish-before-South Park shonen, very raunchy, but reflecting differences in national ideals all the same. Seinen manga and anime today probably wouldn't easily get away with overt pedophilia like Dragon Ball once did, but it certainly goes further in other aspects.

Dragon Ball's the kind of franchise that features its characters making educational material, elementary school adverts, traffic cop promos, and would probably have games on Leapster if those were still around. Like, it is hilariously, outrageously for kids. Shifting it to seinen might've been possible in 1985 or '86 if Toriyama thought it'd make more money, but that ship has long sailed. It's sailed so far that it returned to port and set sail again, and then came back to port a third time.
Toei went several steps beyond the immature humour of Toriyama's work by making Roshi an explicit sexual predator compared to his manga counterpart whose worst crimes were acts of voyeurism and having a generally perverted personality, which is all still bad of course, but Toei had a weird boner for amping up the dodgy content. General Blue wasn't a nonce in the manga either.

But yeah, I agree. I don't think overly adult, conversational themes have much of a place in the Dragon Ball universe. When they're sprinkled in they're certainly welcome, but the property is seen as a pure national treasure in the same way that Wallace & Gromit is for the UK or Peanuts is for the US. W&G especially could get pretty raunchy and had a lot of humour only adults would understand, but it's fundamentally a family-friendly series that never gets too heavy while still packing in the emotions. It's just a sign of cultural differences that DB managed to achieve this protected status in Japan despite having vastly more violence and explicit raunchy content compared to foreign contemporaries.
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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by pepd » Sun May 31, 2020 2:29 pm

Probably not if comes with a essential changes, but if it's implicit with a few dialogues or scenes for those who want to give it importance, sure, I would like that; like, pretty much all the arcs so far had themes with potential to have mature/dark implications with the addition of a couple of comments.

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Re: Should Dragon Ball adopt more Seinen storylines?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun May 31, 2020 6:42 pm

They could've made Super a senien or have a story revolving around Vegeta's childhood.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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