How to properly watch GT ?

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ABED
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:54 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:50 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:29 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:20 pm


But Goku is a martial artist, why is ki his first resort?
Why would it be his last resort? Ki is part of martial arts.

I literally just gave an example where he holds back at the beginning of a fight. He does it in nearly every fight. He held back at the beginning of his fight against Piccolo in the Tenkaichi Budokai.
But not to the same degree. Also sure ki is apart of it, but Goku never really uses it from the getgo that's just not in his character
I don't know what you mean by same degree. Goku has only ever fought someone like 17 once before. The context has changed. What about his character requires him to fight hand to hand first?

A reason it make sense to me, aside from the issue of it being more interesting, is it's about pacing himself. He's against an enemy he doesn't know and wants to conserve energy to not tire himself out.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:54 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:50 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:29 pm
Why would it be his last resort? Ki is part of martial arts.

I literally just gave an example where he holds back at the beginning of a fight. He does it in nearly every fight. He held back at the beginning of his fight against Piccolo in the Tenkaichi Budokai.
But not to the same degree. Also sure ki is apart of it, but Goku never really uses it from the getgo that's just not in his character
I don't know what you mean by same degree. Goku has only ever fought someone like 17 once before. The context has changed. What about his character requires him to fight hand to hand first?
Well, my point is he doesn't have to go all out to use SSJ4. He could hold back to start but he shouldn't even think SSJ would be a reasonable form to use. Also, just look at every Goku fight. Ki is never his main thing, he uses it sparingly. It just comes off as contrived when they could have easily had waited until later in the fight where Goku uses a ki attack and oh no 17 absorbs it.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:01 pm

Look at every fight he's ever had, has he ever been up against someone who could steal ki? Once and he was nearly killed when it came into contact with him. Different kind of enemy requires a different strategy.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:07 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:01 pm
Look at every fight he's ever had, has he ever been up against someone who could steal ki? Once and he was nearly killed when it came into contact with him. Different kind of enemy requires a different strategy.
Sure but organically he should learn these things about Super 17 to make the fight more interesting. Take RoF Frieza vs Goku. That fight in the anime is the worst thing ever, they just repeatedly fire ki blasts at one another because they don't know what to do. The Super 17 fight has a similar problem with that

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:15 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:07 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:01 pm
Look at every fight he's ever had, has he ever been up against someone who could steal ki? Once and he was nearly killed when it came into contact with him. Different kind of enemy requires a different strategy.
Sure but organically he should learn these things about Super 17 to make the fight more interesting. Take RoF Frieza vs Goku. That fight in the anime is the worst thing ever, they just repeatedly fire ki blasts at one another because they don't know what to do. The Super 17 fight has a similar problem with that
I don't know what you mean by "learn organically".

What's wrong with firing ki blasts? What do you have against them? They as much martial arts as punching and kicking.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:22 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:15 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:07 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:01 pm
Look at every fight he's ever had, has he ever been up against someone who could steal ki? Once and he was nearly killed when it came into contact with him. Different kind of enemy requires a different strategy.
Sure but organically he should learn these things about Super 17 to make the fight more interesting. Take RoF Frieza vs Goku. That fight in the anime is the worst thing ever, they just repeatedly fire ki blasts at one another because they don't know what to do. The Super 17 fight has a similar problem with that
I don't know what you mean by "learn organically".

What's wrong with firing ki blasts? What do you have against them? They as much martial arts as punching and kicking.
I don't have anything wrong with a well placed Ki Blast. I just rewatched the fight, he doesn't use it right away but he uses it too much still. My main issue is still the silliness of him using SSJ. However, the Ki attacks aren't as bad as I originally remembered

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:45 pm

I just don't see why ki blasts are something to be used sparingly.

SSJ has the best tradoff between power up and power consumption.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:27 pm

The problem is Goku kept using ki blasts and only ki blasts even after noticing they were not hurting 17 and actually making him stronger. It took him way too long to realise what was going on for someone who already suffered ki absorption from an android, he spents an episode doing the very thing he knew would make his enemy stronger back in Z, even after suspecting something is off.

And it's weird him not using SS4 because it gives him back his full capacity, shunkanido, adult body, and the enemy seems on that level. He uses it for everything in the following arc. It's ok if he starts as just SS, but after getting trashed back to base, trying again in that form makes little sense.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:35 pm

It also uses up a ton of energy. His punches and kicks weren't doing any better against 17.

What should his strategy have been?
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:26 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:27 pm
The problem is Goku kept using ki blasts and only ki blasts even after noticing they were not hurting 17 and actually making him stronger. It took him way too long to realise what was going on for someone who already suffered ki absorption from an android, he spents an episode doing the very thing he knew would make his enemy stronger back in Z, even after suspecting something is off.

And it's weird him not using SS4 because it gives him back his full capacity, shunkanido, adult body, and the enemy seems on that level. He uses it for everything in the following arc. It's ok if he starts as just SS, but after getting trashed back to base, trying again in that form makes little sense.
Goku used only one ki attack after he realized its making him stronger and that was Kamehameha X10 which Goku hoped would be too much for Super 17 to absorb. He killed Yakon the same way.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Kodoshin » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:17 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:46 pm
You mean according to you and how do you know it makes less sense than a direct confrontation? Does he do any better when he's attacking up close in their battle?

Raditz is Goku's brother and it doesn't really inform much. That's really the extent of his backstory - he's Goku's brother. He'd still come to Earth and Goku would still be in conflict with him. Being Goku's brother was a feather in his cap but the reason people remember him is mostly because he's part of one of the best fights in the entire series, which lasts all of three episodes.

The stage for the conflict is the game of cat and mouse to get the DB's. That's what brings everyone into conflict. The Freeza-Vegeta connection works well because it all doesn't hinge on their past, so it doesn't feel like some shortcut to depth. You can't count on backstory to make audiences care.

The Super 17 arc is short but that wasn't why it's boring. Hell, as is, it actually feels too long because it's boring but not due to lack of backstory. We know 17's story, it's just not interesting and the fights in GT are weak on the whole. The Bardock and Trunks specials are short but they use their runtime well.
Also I come off as irritated? Thanks for your honesty. You know how you come off to me? As a self-important overly confident person who thinks he knows everything. I thank you for telling me I don't know what makes a good story when I've spent a great deal of time creating and consuming stories. I'm sure you're a delightful person.
I didn't start this. I didn't begin this by talking down to you. All I did was give you my opinion and you condescendingly act as though I am making excuses. As if I couldn't possibly come to a different conclusion than you about the quality of the writing. You were prickly right from the jump but while we're at it, you may have spent a good deal of time creating stories but I can't imagine you're any good at it if you think a logical reversal like turning a lazy plot device on the heroes after they use the over and over again constitutes bad writing. And EVERYONE spends a great deal of time consuming stories. Human beings' love of storytelling might as well be coded into our DNA. You aren't special in that regard.
Frankly it seems like all you're interested in doing is going in circles with me here. I think there's more than enough evidence to suggest that Goku's fighting style was misrepresented here in a way that stands out and I'm not alone in that belief. You can say "but energy absorption" all you want, but just the fact that grabbing absorption is on the table should be a tipoff that it'd be possible at long range too.You know, just like 19 was able to do. And it makes him sandbagging so long in that fight make even less sense

I would say we live in different worlds of theory craft on stories at this point and nothing is going to change that. I'm done engaging here, because Dragon Ball GT isn't worth this many words.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:40 pm

Kodoshin wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:17 pm
I would say we live in different worlds of theory craft on stories at this point and nothing is going to change that
Yes it seems you don't understand the basics of set ups, payoffs, and reversals which are at the heart of any good story. Hell, any story period.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:41 pm

God, that two-handed red Ten-Times Kamehame-Ha was always so gorgeous...definitely wish that would get brought back in the next series or film.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:45 pm

I always found the 10x Kamehameha to be oddly named. Why not just call it a full powered Kamehameha?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:56 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:45 pm
I always found the 10x Kamehameha to be oddly named. Why not just call it a full powered Kamehameha?
Probably because Kamehameha X10 sounds stronger and red color implies it's something like kaioken, Goku uses a kamehameha that is 10 times stronger than regular kamehameha. Full power sounds less impressive, as Goku in his full power wasn't as strong as after using a kaioken. The same way full power kamehameha would be just Goku using the most powerful kamehameha he can, but x10 sounds like it's something beyond limit.

What bothers me more is how games added that silly "Big Bang Kamehameha X100", as Gogeta never used any kind of multiplier for this technique, yet games wanted to make something even stronger and added X100.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:47 am

ABED wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:03 pm
If you can't make your way through it, just don't watch. If you have reasonable assurance it will get better then keep going. It took me a while to get through the first season of Fleabag and the only reason I made it through the first season was the assurance it would get better and because it wasn't a long show. I can't say the same for Star Trek: TNG. I've been told season 1 is rough but it gets great from season 2 onward. I've never been a big Trek fan so I'm not about to spend however many hours slogging through season 1 on the off chance it will get better when I find Trek boring.
Considering that Star Trek is more episodic in nature, you can just look up a list of the best episodes and only watch those, without missing much context.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:37 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:47 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:03 pm
If you can't make your way through it, just don't watch. If you have reasonable assurance it will get better then keep going. It took me a while to get through the first season of Fleabag and the only reason I made it through the first season was the assurance it would get better and because it wasn't a long show. I can't say the same for Star Trek: TNG. I've been told season 1 is rough but it gets great from season 2 onward. I've never been a big Trek fan so I'm not about to spend however many hours slogging through season 1 on the off chance it will get better when I find Trek boring.
Considering that Star Trek is more episodic in nature, you can just look up a list of the best episodes and only watch those, without missing much context.
I don't care about Trek in the least. I find it inherently boring. After 5 movies and 8 5 episodes, I can say for certain that it's not right for me. I just don't care. I'm speaking only for myself. If you like it, more power to you. Also, I'm a completionist. I don't like bouncing around.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:54 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:37 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:47 am
ABED wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:03 pm
If you can't make your way through it, just don't watch. If you have reasonable assurance it will get better then keep going. It took me a while to get through the first season of Fleabag and the only reason I made it through the first season was the assurance it would get better and because it wasn't a long show. I can't say the same for Star Trek: TNG. I've been told season 1 is rough but it gets great from season 2 onward. I've never been a big Trek fan so I'm not about to spend however many hours slogging through season 1 on the off chance it will get better when I find Trek boring.
Considering that Star Trek is more episodic in nature, you can just look up a list of the best episodes and only watch those, without missing much context.
I don't care about Trek in the least. I find it inherently boring. After 5 movies and 8 5 episodes, I can say for certain that it's not right for me. I just don't care. I'm speaking only for myself. If you like it, more power to you. Also, I'm a completionist. I don't like bouncing around.
I can see how that would be an issue. The thing about Star Trek (at least TOS, TNG, and the movies) is that the best episodes are really good, but the worst episodes are downright awful.

You might want to try Deep Space Nine, as it has relatively fewer bad episodes and after a while it starts on a long arc that lasts until the end of the season, so it's less episodic. The first few seasons are probably what you would consider boring, though, but it has a lot more comic relief than TNG, so that could help.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:43 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:54 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:37 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:47 am


Considering that Star Trek is more episodic in nature, you can just look up a list of the best episodes and only watch those, without missing much context.
I don't care about Trek in the least. I find it inherently boring. After 5 movies and 8 5 episodes, I can say for certain that it's not right for me. I just don't care. I'm speaking only for myself. If you like it, more power to you. Also, I'm a completionist. I don't like bouncing around.
I can see how that would be an issue. The thing about Star Trek (at least TOS, TNG, and the movies) is that the best episodes are really good, but the worst episodes are downright awful.

You might want to try Deep Space Nine, as it has relatively fewer bad episodes and after a while it starts on a long arc that lasts until the end of the season, so it's less episodic. The first few seasons are probably what you would consider boring, though, but it has a lot more comic relief than TNG, so that could help.
Thanks for the suggestion. Maybe sometime down the line.

Anyway, even though much of GT is boring, it's DB and I still enjoy it, in spite of its flaws. It's like checking in with old friends.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Toxin45 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:23 am

Well I watched got when I was younger and I thought it was okay

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