How to properly watch GT ?

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ABED
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:38 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:31 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:47 am
blacksymbiote wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:02 am
I think there's something about seeing these shows in different order and the way they were edited that affected how they were received.
I always think it's best to watch a show from the start and in its entirety, but there are exceptions like GT. The problem with GT is that by the time it gets good (good in GT standards), I think most people will have already dropped it had they included those 15 episodes. Personally, I think they could've gotten away with just skipping 10 episodes (6-15) as that's where things really go downhill.

In terms of Funimation treating DB as a prequel, it was a terrible idea, as the more I watch Z, the more convinced I become that it's a terrible place to start a story.
1: Kinda telling to me, actually, that GT has been seen as being fatally crippled by its first 15 episodes. How did Super overcome that when its first 40 were arguably inferior?
2: Damn straight starting with Raditz is a poor decision! If we had to start halfway through the series, an infinitely better place would be the start of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. But even then, that makes no sense. You don't pick up Prisoner of Azkaban on page 235 and read onwards from there and then treat every book and page before that as an "optional comedic prequel."
I would argue that the first episodes of Super are much better. The action is better and so are the characters. The first 16 includes an entire arc whereas GT was only about 40% of the way through its first.

2. The 23rd TB would not be the best place to start other than the very beginning. That's the end of a larger story arc for Goku. It's the payoff to Goku's journey to win the Tenkaichi Budokai. DBZ begins with all the other threads having been wrapped up prior. But yes, I agree that it's not the best idea to start a story in the middle if you can help it, but prior to only about 1.5 decades ago, that was the norm. How many people saw any TV show from the start?
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:28 pm

I don’t like the idea of starting the story at the Saiyan saga as much as the next person, but doing so didn’t exactly hurt its popularity in English speaking countries. For that matter, Kai was also pretty successful on Nicktoons and the CW, and it did the same thing. That’s not even getting to the fact that nearly all the video games that adapt the story of the series will completely ignore the stuff that happened before Raditz shows up.

Hell, even BT3, despite being pretty much the only fighting game to actually include OG Dragon Ball in its story, still starts at the Saiyan saga, and treats everything before that as a prequel.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:39 pm

People start stories in the middle all the time, especially when the beginning isn't easily accessible. I generally discourage it when possible as not starting at the beginning lessens the impact the story might have.

DBZ is the most popular DB series by far so while it's a shame more don't watch from the beginning if early DB would dissuade anyone from continuing, then so be it. At least they enjoy some DB.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:22 am

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:31 pm
Kinda telling to me, actually, that GT has been seen as being fatally crippled by its first 15 episodes. How did Super overcome that when its first 40 were arguably inferior?
1- Standards: I think fans from back in the day simply had higher expectations for the brand, DB was expected to deliver a certain level of quality. Today's fans however don't really have that, they're just happy to have DB back, regardless of its quality.

2- Name recognition: Toriyama's name holds a lot of weight within the community, and I think it being attached to Super played a major role in getting it past those 40+ episodes. Not that what came after was much better.

3- Moving on: GT failing may had nothing to do with those 15 episodes, but Toriyama ending his manga and the majority of fans walking away with him. Unlike now where fans expect things to last forever, fans used to walk away from stories once they reached their natural conclusion.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by blacksymbiote » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:14 am

It's funny to me. People weren't as quick to criticize GT back in the day. It was agreed that it wasn't as good as Z, but people seem to be much harder on it now. Plenty were excited when rumors of AF came about. Super on the other hand was picked apart from the first episode.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:51 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:14 am
It's funny to me. People weren't as quick to criticize GT back in the day.
That's probably due to Funimation skipping those 1st 15 episodes and jumping right into the more familiar Z type stories.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:39 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:47 am
blacksymbiote wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:02 am
I think there's something about seeing these shows in different order and the way they were edited that affected how they were received.
In terms of Funimation treating DB as a prequel, it was a terrible idea, as the more I watch Z, the more convinced I become that it's a terrible place to start a story.
Can't agree more. If you start at Saiyan Saga, as a new viewer, you are dumped all these characters that you know nothing about, and will have to be over time retroactively told of their connection to Goku, why they are friend or foe, and why we should care about them via flashbacks and other exposition. If you watch DB, then go into Z, you already have all the necessary info on the main cast. The only characters that would appear "New" would be Gohan and the Saiyans.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:55 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:39 am
Can't agree more. If you start at Saiyan Saga, as a new viewer, you are dumped all these characters that you know nothing about, and will have to be over time retroactively told of their connection to Goku, why they are friend or foe, and why we should care about them via flashbacks and other exposition. If you watch DB, then go into Z, you already have all the necessary info on the main cast. The only characters that would appear "New" would be Gohan and the Saiyans.
There's also the giant dragon that grants wishes, it's not explained at all in the Saiyan arc, as you're expected to know about it.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:37 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:14 am
It's funny to me. People weren't as quick to criticize GT back in the day. It was agreed that it wasn't as good as Z, but people seem to be much harder on it now. Plenty were excited when rumors of AF came about. Super on the other hand was picked apart from the first episode.
Because Super was legit trash before the Future Trunks arc.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:12 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:55 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:39 am
Can't agree more. If you start at Saiyan Saga, as a new viewer, you are dumped all these characters that you know nothing about, and will have to be over time retroactively told of their connection to Goku, why they are friend or foe, and why we should care about them via flashbacks and other exposition. If you watch DB, then go into Z, you already have all the necessary info on the main cast. The only characters that would appear "New" would be Gohan and the Saiyans.
There's also the giant dragon that grants wishes, it's not explained at all in the Saiyan arc, as you're expected to know about it.
It's a giant dragon that grants wishes. very little exposition is needed. The problem isn't the audience's lack of understanding, it's a matter of emotional connection. The only death that has real impact is Piccolo's because we've spent considerable time with him and his bond with Gohan was dramatized.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Jord » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:28 am

Regarding the first 15 episodes. regardless of quality, how much you enjoy them is I think correlated to what you watched before you watch GT:

If you watch it right after Z it is a massive tone and structure shift. It can feel like a massive step back after the intense Boo fights.we want action damnit! Not this comedy bs!

If you watch it separately after not having watched Z for a while it feels like a gentle way to ease into the show and see how the characters you know now behave and how the Dragon World has changed. You get a bit more explanation about Goku's shift in powers and get to know the GT versions of Trunks and Pan a bit better.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:56 am

DB has shifted tones plenty of times. Hell the Buu arc came off the heels of the Cell Games and is mostly comedy at the beginning.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:53 am

ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:56 am
DB has shifted tones plenty of times. Hell the Buu arc came off the heels of the Cell Games and is mostly comedy at the beginning.
It had nothing to do with their tone, the writing just wasn't good. There's also the fact that Toriyama knew how to shift between completely different tones, something that isn't easy to pull off.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:07 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:53 am
ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:56 am
DB has shifted tones plenty of times. Hell the Buu arc came off the heels of the Cell Games and is mostly comedy at the beginning.
It had nothing to do with their tone, the writing just wasn't good. There's also the fact that Toriyama knew how to shift between completely different tones, something that isn't easy to pull off.
Agreed. There are a lot of interesting pieces at the beginning (e.g., I stand by the decision to put Goku, Trunks, and Pan together) but they didn't put it all together.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:22 pm

The big problem with the first 15 or so episodes of GT is that it’s basically just a retread of the very first arc of the manga, but without the zany humor and outlandish characters. Without that, you just ended up with a by the numbers Easter egg hunt that just happens to involve space. As much as I think that FUNimation’s decision to skip ahead was tacky and cynical, I’d argue that it was an ingenious way of making sure that people would stay invested in the show.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:22 pm
As much as I think that FUNimation’s decision to skip ahead was tacky and cynical, I’d argue that it was an ingenious way of making sure that people would stay invested in the show.
I can't help but wonder if GT would've lasted longer had those episodes not existed. Things would've been a lot better had they went from Goku and friends leaving the planet they found Giro on after the battle with Lodgic into the M-2 part of the story. That's what I did when I watched it last time and I didn't feel like I missed anything at all, and to make things better, it was far less of an awkward transition from Z. That's not to say GT lines up perfectly with Z without those episodes, but it's far better without them.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:00 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:36 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:22 pm
As much as I think that FUNimation’s decision to skip ahead was tacky and cynical, I’d argue that it was an ingenious way of making sure that people would stay invested in the show.
I can't help but wonder if GT would've lasted longer had those episodes not existed. Things would've been a lot better had they went from Goku and friends leaving the planet they found Giro on after the battle with Lodgic into the M-2 part of the story. That's what I did when I watched it last time and I didn't feel like I missed anything at all, and to make things better, it was far less of an awkward transition from Z. That's not to say GT lines up perfectly with Z without those episodes, but it's far better without them.
That's fairly similar to how i do the first part as well when rewatching GT, because while the first five episodes set up the story fairly decent it's the next batch of ten which really drags down the flow of the pacing in trying to recapture the adventure angle of the original series. Although i don't skip over the arc entirely the way FUNi did in 2003, back when the show originally ran on Toonami and initially released on home video episodes 6-15 are not essential and thus it's 1-5 then onto the M2 stuff, so you could do the same as me because the former set aren't anything major in terms of their plots that you'd be missing out on by not watching them.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:06 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:00 pm
It's the next batch of ten which really drags down the flow of the pacing in trying to recapture the adventure angle of the original series.
We're not the only ones who think this, as even the producers didn't like them, but it was too late to change things. I really think GT would've been something special if it just had a bit more time to develop.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:06 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:00 pm
It's the next batch of ten which really drags down the flow of the pacing in trying to recapture the adventure angle of the original series.
We're not the only ones who think this, as even the producers didn't like them, but it was too late to change things. I really think GT would've been something special if it just had a bit more time to develop.
Of course, seeing as GT had come out of their desire to continue onward past where Toriyama had concluded the manga the year before and they weren't just going to let the series stop after Z episode 291 aired. If only the animation staff at Toei weren't under such a hurry to get it out then maybe the show wouldn't have been such an uneven up and down mess with lackluster execution of plots at times like it ended up as.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:33 pm

Mileage varies but I don't think the humor or characters were even the fundamental problem. Yes the retread plots hurt but not enough here are putting emphasis on the action. GT's action is bland, unmemorable, and boring. It hurts the show a lot. Time couldn't have hurt but I don't think it's the reason the fights over the course of the entire series are just bland.

The Luud stuff was boring but the ending works better than Baby's and I don't think any amount of time was gonna prevent that.
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