How to properly watch GT ?

[Matches Malone]

I mean, speak for yourself... Super left a big impact on me.

In that case you need to watch other anime. If you consider super's bare bones, lackluster offering impactful, then you're clearly missing out on other shows.

[SupremeKai25]

I mean, speak for yourself... Super left a big impact on me.

In that case you need to watch other anime. If you consider super's bare bones, lackluster offering impactful, then you're clearly missing out on other shows.

I watch other anime too, thank you very much. Maybe you should learn to speak for yourself, instead of thinking that everyone believes Super is bad and forgettable just because you do.

[Kodoshin]

What cliche?

I like that the cast is focused. I don't know how you develop other characters beyond the main trio when for the bulk of the series, they're on Earth. It's really unsatisfying to keep cutting back and forth.

No, please go on about how the Super 17 arc misrepresented his fighting style.

Look, there's something to be said about faulty execution but a lot of the ideas are good.

The cliche of "the thing we depended on most is turned against us," this is a fairly common thing in storytelling but people who defend GT act like it's some brilliant master stroke. It's nothing special, and quite frankly, the execution with the incredibly lame Shadow Dragon characters is some of the worst stuff in Dragon Ball.

On the audio/visual front I have to say that everything from the character designs to the music is the worst in all of Dragon Ball. Totally an opinion thing, but it certainly stands out in a bad way compared to the rest of the franchise IMO.

The lack of usage of the other characters is a problem with the show and its whole execution in general. Not just the hero characters your referring to, but aside from Baby it felt like none of the villains had a combination of screen time and back story to develop into anything I'm supposed to even slightly care about.

As for Goku's fighting style in the Super 17 arc that one's easy. Look all throughout the series and then watch the Super 17 fight. For some reason in the Super 17 fight Goku is replaced by some idiot who basically just spams ki blasts all day and almost entirely forgoes physical combat as a plot device to power Super 17 up. It doesn't make sense in the least. For the most part Goku starts off fights with physical attacks and works ki blasts in as the fights drag on on, but here he just fights like a total moron from the start.

So no, I don't feel like the ideas are good, original, or even worth exploring.

[Kodoshin]

People enjoy it (or the idea at least) because not only was it continuing a plot point established in Toriyama's manga, it was the perfect arc for the franchise to go out on. What better way to end DB than by having the very thing that started it turn on the cast, only for them to lose the Dragon Balls at the end ? To make things worse, they even lost Goku. If there's one thing GT got right, it's consequences and shifts within the status quo.

Wait just a minute, if this isn't creative, what would you call modern DB ? GT may be a snoozefest, but it's nowhere near as creatively bankrupt as modern DB is. If anything, my negative feelings towards GT is due to how poorly they executed an otherwise very creative chapter within the franchise. The arc's execution may not be good, but at least it's short, unlike the Tournament of Power which is over 3 times longer. Come to think of it, the Tournament of Power is almost as long as GT is in its entirety.

I've already addressed my feelings about the final arc in another post so I'll leave you to read that. Further, the consequences you mention, am I supposed to be impressed? None of the consequences matter when the events that led to them feel like a bizarre fanfic that doesn't feel like Dragonball in the slightest.

Dragon Ball Super is heavily flawed, not particularly creative, and honestly the series may have been better off if it was never made and simply released as series of movies, but it's still far superior to GT which should have been aborted at the conceptual stages.

[ABED]

What cliche?

I like that the cast is focused. I don't know how you develop other characters beyond the main trio when for the bulk of the series, they're on Earth. It's really unsatisfying to keep cutting back and forth.

No, please go on about how the Super 17 arc misrepresented his fighting style.

Look, there's something to be said about faulty execution but a lot of the ideas are good.

The cliche of "the thing we depended on most is turned against us," this is a fairly common thing in storytelling but people who defend GT act like it's some brilliant master stroke. It's nothing special, and quite frankly, the execution with the incredibly lame Shadow Dragon characters is some of the worst stuff in Dragon Ball.

On the audio/visual front I have to say that everything from the character designs to the music is the worst in all of Dragon Ball. Totally an opinion thing, but it certainly stands out in a bad way compared to the rest of the franchise IMO.

The lack of usage of the other characters is a problem with the show and its whole execution in general. Not just the hero characters your referring to, but aside from Baby it felt like none of the villains had a combination of screen time and back story to develop into anything I'm supposed to even slightly care about.

As for Goku's fighting style in the Super 17 arc that one's easy. Look all throughout the series and then watch the Super 17 fight. For some reason in the Super 17 fight Goku is replaced by some idiot who basically just spams ki blasts all day and almost entirely forgoes physical combat as a plot device to power Super 17 up. It doesn't make sense in the least. For the most part Goku starts off fights with physical attacks and works ki blasts in as the fights drag on on, but here he just fights like a total moron from the start.

So no, I don't feel like the ideas are good, original, or even worth exploring.

It's a trope but a solid one. Life doesn't have a get out of jail free card, but reversals make for good storytelling. I would argue that reversals are one of the most important techniques in storytelling. It's classic out of the frying pan into the fire. It's also a scenario that was set up well before hand utilizing another fundamental of good storytelling - set up and payoff. It's the execution that's the problem so I don't see why anyone has any fundamental issue with it seeing as how DB isn't a bastion of originality. It uses a bunch of tropes of the genre to great effect.

Goku was trying to stay away from 17 because physical contact would lead to him getting drained like when he fought 19

Backstory was never that important in DB and to be honest, it's overrated.

[Matches Malone]

Maybe you should learn to speak for yourself, instead of thinking that everyone believes Super is bad and forgettable just because you do.

And maybe you shouldn't take thing so personally.

For some reason in the Super 17 fight Goku is replaced by some idiot who basically just spams ki blasts all day and almost entirely forgoes physical combat as a plot device to power Super 17 up.

You won't see me defending that fight, it truly is the worst fight in the franchise. Thankfully it was only around an episode and a half, if even that.

The consequences you mention, am I supposed to be impressed?

The events that led to them feel like a bizarre fanfic that doesn't feel like Dragonball in the slightest.

GT should have been aborted at the conceptual stages.

For a franchise that has very little long lasting consequences, it's very impressive. The idea of one, much less four main characters (including Goku) remaining dead is something we didn't even get in the original manga, and will never get in Super.

Fan fic ? those events were already set up in the original manga. The Tsufruian war (Baby's race) was a plot point provided to the anime staff by Toriyama, they just continued it by having a survivor go after the Saiyans for revenge. The overuse of the dragon balls having negative consequences was established by Old Kai in the manga, and like the above, they just elaborated on it.

GT should've been released a bit later than when it did, as it clearly needed more planning.

[SupremeKai25]

Maybe you should learn to speak for yourself, instead of thinking that everyone believes Super is bad and forgettable just because you do.

And maybe you shouldn't take thing so personally.

For some reason in the Super 17 fight Goku is replaced by some idiot who basically just spams ki blasts all day and almost entirely forgoes physical combat as a plot device to power Super 17 up.

You won't see me defending that fight, it truly is the worst fight in the franchise. Thankfully it was only around an episode and a half, if even that.

The consequences you mention, am I supposed to be impressed?

The events that led to them feel like a bizarre fanfic that doesn't feel like Dragonball in the slightest.

GT should have been aborted at the conceptual stages.

For a franchise that has very little long lasting consequences, it's very impressive. The idea of one, much less four main characters (including Goku) remaining dead is something we didn't even get in the original manga, and will never get in Super.

Fan fic ? those events were already set up in the original manga. The Tsufruian war (Baby's race) was a plot point provided to the anime staff by Toriyama, they just continued it by having a survivor go after the Saiyans for revenge. The overuse of the dragon balls having negative consequences was established by Old Kai in the manga, and like the above, they just elaborated on it.

GT should've been released a bit later than when it did, as it clearly needed more planning.

I'm not taking things personaly at all. Sorry if people are allowed to have their own opinion.

[Kodoshin]

It's a trope but a solid one. Life doesn't have a get out of jail free card, but reversals make for good storytelling. I would argue that reversals are one of the most important techniques in storytelling. It's classic out of the frying pan into the fire. It's also a scenario that was set up well before hand utilizing another fundamental of good storytelling - set up and payoff. It's the execution that's the problem so I don't see why anyone has any fundamental issue with it seeing as how DB isn't a bastion of originality. It uses a bunch of tropes of the genre to great effect.

Goku was trying to stay away from 17 because physical contact would lead to him getting drained like when he fought 19

Backstory was never that important in DB and to be honest, it's overrated.

That reasoning for 17 makes no sense when we also know that 19/20 were capable of absorbing energy blasts as well. Frankly the only reason 19 was able to do anything against Goku was the heart virus so he should have been plenty ready to go in against 17. Please stop trying to do mental gymnastics to defend this schlock.

You can try and dress it up as much you want, I've already made clear why the final arc is terrible and your excuses for it aren't going to move me.

Backstory was never important in Dragon Ball? I'd say a number of the key cast members ended up having very significant backstories that drove a lot of the overall story, so I'd think that one over carefully, but whatever.

[Kodoshin]

For a franchise that has very little long lasting consequences, it's very impressive. The idea of one, much less four main characters (including Goku) remaining dead is something we didn't even get in the original manga, and will never get in Super.

Fan fic ? those events were already set up in the original manga. The Tsufruian war (Baby's race) was a plot point provided to the anime staff by Toriyama, they just continued it by having a survivor go after the Saiyans for revenge. The overuse of the dragon balls having negative consequences was established by Old Kai in the manga, and like the above, they just elaborated on it.

GT should've been released a bit later than when it did, as it clearly needed more planning.

I'll clarify my fanfic comment for you. This has to do again with fight choreography. The fights in GT, after what we saw in both original DB and Z are hard to believe. It feels as if the heroes are always sandbagging because these enemies don't feel like enemies they should be struggling with. Goku often fights without using anything more than SSJ, and often ends up beating enemies in base form, but only after a long struggle and it just begs the question of why not just powerup a bit and smash them? The internal logic of fights that had been established in the series and carried through to this point gets thrown out the window. Dragon Ball Super has a similar, but not identical problem that drives me mad as well, but nothing compares to how bad it is in GT.

Basically, the fights in GT are so poorly done that I have trouble believing the resulting situations from these fights are even remotely believable in the context of Dragon Ball and the Dragon Ball universe as a whole.

I agree that obviously it needed more planning. It literally started airing the week after Z ended right? That's crazy.

[ABED]

Hardly mental gymnastics. He wants to keep his distance so long range attacks make sense. Stop reaching for reasons to hate on it. GT has plenty of faults this isn't one

You don't have to like it but I'm not dressing it up simply pointing out that it's not a cliche. It's solid fundamental storytelling to turn the way someone gets out of one bad situation ends up causing issues down the line. It's not an excuse... Jesus.

I have thought it over and their backstories were never that elaborate. Vegeta's issue with Goku wasn't really driven by some involved backstory. They came from the same planet. That's it. Backstories aren't what make a villain interesting, it's the story. I don't think you have quite the handle on what makes for a good story and latched onto anything you could find without really thinking it through. On its surface lack of backstory seems to make sense as a bad idea, but plenty of great villains don't have solid backstories. Even Freeza's isn't particularly deep or involved. He'd still be a bastard to Vegeta regardless whether they had history. It's his personality, and his actions. Instead of getting so damn prickly, why not explain why you think the backstories are so important?

You are coming off as really irritated and there's no reason for it, especially not over something as silly as GT.

[Koitsukai]

I agree with the Super 17 fight making Goku look ridiculous.
It already starts fucked up with Goku not going SS4 from the get go, like he is fighting Ledgic or the Sygma Force, and not a machine mutant that just stomped everybody without even trying. I guess he learned that lesson because in the following arc he uses SS4 even to hold buildings off.
He gets beaten up as SS and instead of going SS4, he just spams ki blasts, and will continue to do so as SS4 too. I mean, why try a pointblank SS KHH when he was so outclassed in that form and he had so much more left? Even before going SS4, he can't believe 17 took that attack to the face and got even stronger, and he still can't connect the dots... and even after connecting the dots, he still tries the strongest KHH!
Truly unwatchable, unless you are Dr Myuu.

[ABED]

Does he go full strength at the beginning when he fought Freeza?

Instead of pretending you know how fictional people with powers shouldn't fight, tell us how it should happen.

This is scrapping the bottom of the barrel for reasons to hate the series especially when Goku has a history of not going full power at the beginning. Why doesn't he go full power? It's not as interesting! That doesn't make it bad writing and it doesn't mean I'm doing mental gymnastics. He doesn't do it for the same reason characters don't call the cops in a thriller - it's boring.

[Mad Swami]

Hardly mental gymnastics. He wants to keep his distance so long range attacks make sense. Stop reaching for reasons to hate on it. GT has plenty of faults this isn't one

But Goku is a martial artist, why is ki his first resort?

[Mad Swami]

This is scrapping the bottom of the barrel for reasons to hate the series especially when Goku has a history of not going full power at the beginning. Why doesn't he go full power? It's not as interesting! That doesn't make it bad writing and it doesn't mean I'm doing mental gymnastics. He doesn't do it for the same reason characters don't call the cops in a thriller - it's boring.

However that isn't good, that shouldn't be forgiven. Never in Z does he hold back. Except for Majin Vegeta. However in that fight he does it to one, not drain his existence on the Earth, and two to shield Vegeta's pride. Not to mention, he as a SSJ2 could beat Vegeta. Every other fight Goku uses as much force as required or as much as he can. That scenario of SSJ Goku vs Super 17 is the equivalent of base Goku firing a Kamehameha at Super Buu and being like "he took that!?"

[ABED]

Hardly mental gymnastics. He wants to keep his distance so long range attacks make sense. Stop reaching for reasons to hate on it. GT has plenty of faults this isn't one

But Goku is a martial artist, why is ki his first resort?

Why would it be his last resort? Ki is part of martial arts.

I literally just gave an example where he holds back at the beginning of a fight. He does it in nearly every fight. He held back at the beginning of his fight against Piccolo in the Tenkaichi Budokai.

[Kodoshin]

Hardly mental gymnastics. He wants to keep his distance so long range attacks make sense. Stop reaching for reasons to hate on it. GT has plenty of faults this isn't one

You don't have to like it but I'm not dressing it up simply pointing out that it's not a cliche. It's solid fundamental storytelling to turn the way someone gets out of one bad situation ends up causing issues down the line. It's not an excuse... Jesus.

I have thought it over and their backstories were never that elaborate. Vegeta's issue with Goku wasn't really driven by some involved backstory. They came from the same planet. That's it. Backstories aren't what make a villain interesting, it's the story. I don't think you have quite the handle on what makes for a good story and latched onto anything you could find without really thinking it through. On its surface lack of backstory seems to make sense as a bad idea, but plenty of great villains don't have solid backstories. Even Freeza's isn't particularly deep or involved. He'd still be a bastard to Vegeta regardless whether they had history. It's his personality, and his actions. Instead of getting so damn prickly, why not explain why you think the backstories are so important?

You are coming off as really irritated and there's no reason for it, especially not over something as silly as GT.

Again, he would know from prior experience that long range attacks make even less sense than direct confrontation. Keep ignoring it though. It's likely the most single inexcusably stupid fight in all of the franchise for the reasons already covered by me.

The backstory for Raditz obviously informs both Vegeta and Freeza's backstories and set the stage for an extremely large chunk of the series. I'd say the importance of the backstory in Dragon Ball made clear by that. Looking at it mechanically it likely later led to the creation of Bardock, which gave us something really cool in the Bardock special. The whole of the Super 17 arc is ultra short and his lack of screen time needs to be offset by something to make me give a shit about him. He already has nothing unique going for him in terms of his powers, moveset, or look. So what's left? Giving me a compelling reason to care about him via backstory would be nice. But lack of screen time and backstory together? Fatal combination.

Also I come off as irritated? Thanks for your honesty. You know how you come off to me? As a self-important overly confident person who thinks he knows everything. I thank you for telling me I don't know what makes a good story when I've spent a great deal of time creating and consuming stories. I'm sure you're a delightful person.

[Matches Malone]

Not to mention, he as a SSJ2 could beat Vegeta.

He said multiple times to Vegeta and the others that they were evenly matched, so I doubt he could beat him, as I doubt Vegeta could beat Goku. If it weren't for Buu, they would've fought until they both dropped.

[ABED]

You mean according to you and how do you know it makes less sense than a direct confrontation? Does he do any better when he's attacking up close in their battle?

Raditz is Goku's brother and it doesn't really inform much. That's really the extent of his backstory - he's Goku's brother. He'd still come to Earth and Goku would still be in conflict with him. Being Goku's brother was a feather in his cap but the reason people remember him is mostly because he's part of one of the best fights in the entire series, which lasts all of three episodes.

The stage for the conflict is the game of cat and mouse to get the DB's. That's what brings everyone into conflict. The Freeza-Vegeta connection works well because it all doesn't hinge on their past, so it doesn't feel like some shortcut to depth. You can't count on backstory to make audiences care.

The Super 17 arc is short but that wasn't why it's boring. Hell, as is, it actually feels too long because it's boring but not due to lack of backstory. We know 17's story, it's just not interesting and the fights in GT are weak on the whole. The Bardock and Trunks specials are short but they use their runtime well.

Also I come off as irritated? Thanks for your honesty. You know how you come off to me? As a self-important overly confident person who thinks he knows everything. I thank you for telling me I don't know what makes a good story when I've spent a great deal of time creating and consuming stories. I'm sure you're a delightful person.

I didn't start this. I didn't begin this by talking down to you. All I did was give you my opinion and you condescendingly act as though I am making excuses. As if I couldn't possibly come to a different conclusion than you about the quality of the writing. You were prickly right from the jump but while we're at it, you may have spent a good deal of time creating stories but I can't imagine you're any good at it if you think a logical reversal like turning a lazy plot device on the heroes after they use the over and over again constitutes bad writing. And EVERYONE spends a great deal of time consuming stories. Human beings' love of storytelling might as well be coded into our DNA. You aren't special in that regard.

[Mad Swami]

Not to mention, he as a SSJ2 could beat Vegeta.

He said multiple times to Vegeta and the others that they were evenly matched, so I doubt he could beat him, as I doubt Vegeta could beat Goku. If it weren't for Buu, they would've fought until they both dropped.

I take being evenly matched as it could go either way

[Mad Swami]

Hardly mental gymnastics. He wants to keep his distance so long range attacks make sense. Stop reaching for reasons to hate on it. GT has plenty of faults this isn't one

But Goku is a martial artist, why is ki his first resort?

Why would it be his last resort? Ki is part of martial arts.

I literally just gave an example where he holds back at the beginning of a fight. He does it in nearly every fight. He held back at the beginning of his fight against Piccolo in the Tenkaichi Budokai.

But not to the same degree. Also sure ki is apart of it, but Goku never really uses it from the getgo that's just not in his character