The push for GT at the end of Z

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:42 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:47 am
Did Toriyama pull some 3000iq subversion of the status quo to throw everyone for a loop to how it would all end? Instead of just being like "Uhhh well everyone just lives happily ever after. The end.", he wanted it to be open ended so that maybe the fans could take up and make their own stories?
“I am only able to show you the story of Son Goku, his many friends, and the Dragon Balls, up to this point, the end. Even after this, we can probably expect that there will still be various troubles, no different than before. But somehow, they’re definitely going to overcome them… It will be all right, because on Earth, there are some incredible guys…!!”

Based on this comment, it seems that way. He couldn't tell the entire story because to him, Goku and his friends will always have new adventures, so it's now up to the countless fans around the world to determine how those adventures continued. I go back and forth on how I feel about the ending. On one hand, I like the idea that my heroes will always have new adventures, but on the other, I'm not really a fan of things being left open, as I like stories to have definitive endings. I have to wonder if GT's writers also feel the same way, as its ending is as closed and definitive as it can get.
If what you say is true, and Toriyama intended the ending to be like this, then I can respect the decision not to go with a cookie cutter ending. Makes an already unique series even more so in a way. Even if i'm still torn at weather I like the twist or not, I can't think of another series that could get away with such a loose ending.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:20 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:47 am
Or am I looking too deep into it? :crazy:
This^^. Sometimes manga series just end, without any kind of "grand conclusion". It's the nature of the medium.

Aside from that, Toriyama was running on empty and already over Dragon Ball by that point, so I'm not surprised it kind of just ends.

Having said that, the ending was presented as being an epilogue to the story, meaning it had already reached a climax in the prior episodes.

I also imagine that if Toei had not done GT and ended things with Z, we would have seen a somewhat different conclusion in the anime than what we did. Perhaps with a bit more finality.

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Vijay » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:42 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:47 am
This may not be 100% on topic, but coming from the perspective of a 1st time viewer. I'm not sure how I feel about the ending of Z.

When I watched Goku fly off for the last time with Uub in episode 291, it was a strange feeling when I realized that it was over. For such a long lasting epic like Dragon Ball to end in such an open-ended, non definitive way is interesting. At first I just felt totally unsatisfied. Like a "Wait what? That's the actual ending? Are you shitting me?". But I thought on it a little more before I made up my mind.

Was this ending intentional? Did Toriyama pull some 3000iq subversion of the status quo to throw everyone for a loop to how it would all end? Instead of just being like "Uhhh well everyone just lives happily ever after. The end.", he wanted it to be open ended so that maybe the fans could take up and make their own stories?

Or am I looking too deep into it? :crazy:

I'll give DB this, never has the end of any series i've seen before made me ponder it so much.
I experienced same feeling over the ending, but that was then, almost a decade ago.

Looking at it now, felt it was one of the mature decision Toriyama has taken considered how it lies perfectly within context of Goku's journey as student-to-teacher coming full circle, preparing new next-gen fighter Uub & ultimately Vegeta's realization on Goku's true intention as Goku's feelings can only be felt by his fellow rival-turned-comrade. It subtle, low-key (as AT himself said) & leaves an open-ending with a bizzare, yet "how & what" filled questions galore finale😅✨

The fact EoZ is being discussed after close to 30 years of it's official completion by itself is a ridiculous feat lol

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 08, 2020 6:42 am

I think it's less about Goku becoming a mentor and the next generation. It's about Goku having more mountains to climb. Yes, the franchise could continue with that ending, but it still provides thematic closure for the story that at its ore is about self improvement.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Toxin45 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:32 pm

I doubt that was the intention on toriyama’s part

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Zestanor » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:18 pm

Vijay wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:42 am

Looking at it now, felt it was one of the mature decision Toriyama has taken considered how it lies perfectly within context of Goku's journey as student-to-teacher coming full circle, preparing new next-gen fighter Uub & ultimately Vegeta's realization on Goku's true intention as Goku's feelings can only be felt by his fellow rival-turned-comrade. It subtle
I do believe you’re reading into it. Don’t get me wrong; I support the idea that a work is bigger than its author and his intentions, but even if your analysis is fitting, I don’t think that’s what he was going for.

If DB had ended any other way, wouldn’t we instead have a stronger reaction to it? This is the safest and least controversial ending possible. I don’t think it warrants Toriyama praise.

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:37 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:18 pm
Vijay wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:42 am

Looking at it now, felt it was one of the mature decision Toriyama has taken considered how it lies perfectly within context of Goku's journey as student-to-teacher coming full circle, preparing new next-gen fighter Uub & ultimately Vegeta's realization on Goku's true intention as Goku's feelings can only be felt by his fellow rival-turned-comrade. It subtle
I do believe you’re reading into it. Don’t get me wrong; I support the idea that a work is bigger than its author and his intentions, but even if your analysis is fitting, I don’t think that’s what he was going for.

If DB had ended any other way, wouldn’t we instead have a stronger reaction to it? This is the safest and least controversial ending possible. I don’t think it warrants Toriyama praise.
Why is it a safe ending?
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Zestanor » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:33 pm

It’s safe because the worst possible criticism he could get is “I liked the story but I wish felt more like an ending.”

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:22 pm

You think that's the worst possible criticism?

Regardless, it's a conclusive ending. It doesn't leave it open ended because the story could continue without him, it's open ended (if you'd call it that) b/c there's no grand ending. The whole point is Goku will continue to seek out more mountains to climb.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Zestanor » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:50 pm

.
ABED wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:22 pm
The whole point is Goku will continue to seek out more mountains to climb.
I don’t think this is bad interpretation of Dragon Ball as a work of fiction for fiction’s sake. However, Toriyama was not consciously utilizing grand themes in his work. Therefore he doesn’t get off the hook for not writing an ending just because the epilogue is more or less in line with the previous 12 years of manga which he had forgotten most of.

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:57 am

Zestanor wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:50 pm
.
ABED wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:22 pm
The whole point is Goku will continue to seek out more mountains to climb.
I don’t think this is bad interpretation of Dragon Ball as a work of fiction for fiction’s sake. However, Toriyama was not consciously utilizing grand themes in his work. Therefore he doesn’t get off the hook for not writing an ending just because the epilogue is more or less in line with the previous 12 years of manga which he had forgotten most of.
Fiction for fiction's sake?

Every story is about something whether intentional or not. Theme is just a unifying idea. Nothing about the concept requires anything intentional on the part of the author(s). The idea of there always being more hills to climb has been in the story from damn near the beginning. Muten Roshi tells this to Goku and Kuririn explicitly during their training before the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

The ending IS an ending. The plot threads were all tied up, Goku is off on some new adventure and excited for the future because he would get to fight the reincarnation of the strongest being he had ever fought. I don't see why the intention of the author is relevant to whether an aspect of the story works.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Zestanor » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 am

The intention of the author is important when there is a question of giving the author praise. See Vijay’s “mature decision” quip.

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:07 am

Zestanor wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:49 am
The intention of the author is important when there is a question of giving the author praise. See Vijay’s “mature decision” quip.
I think that's a matter of individual preference. I don't believe it's important when judging an author's work for several reasons not the least of which is not knowing what is or isn't intentional.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Zestanor » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:34 am

I appreciate that you try to make people give more nuanced responses, I guess, but real talk man: do you ever agree with anything lol?

Anyway that’s not what I was talking about. I wasn’t trying to judge the author’s work: I was judging the author. He declined to write an ending. It just ends.

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Vijay » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:55 am

Zestanor wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:34 am
I appreciate that you try to make people give more nuanced responses, I guess, but real talk man: do you ever agree with anything lol?

Anyway that’s not what I was talking about. I wasn’t trying to judge the author’s work: I was judging the author. He declined to write an ending. It just ends.
ROFL 🤣 the only thing he agrees upon is "completion"😂 And yet he speaks of Goku climbing mountains.

It's Uub we're talking abt. A mere 10y/o kid and EoZ Base Goku was abt even at their TB fist fight, excluding any flight or chi attacks. Even if Goku trains Uub & fights to improvise himself , it's not like Goku's power level gonna skyrocket surpassing Boohan or Omega Shenron level lol. I dunno what mountains dude's talkin abt?

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:58 am

Yes I do agree with things but generally I'm a lot less interested in saying "I agree" than having a conversation which I find aren't as fertile if we're just discussing things we agree about. Maybe that's shallow thinking, but it's my belief.

I don't see how that's not an appropriate ending for the story. I'm confused why you think it just ends. Did you feel there wasn't a payoff? I could use Angel's ending to give you an example of an appropriate "open ended" ending that would illustrate my point, but I'm not sure if you've seen it and I don't like spoiling things.

Vijay, instead of speaking past me, talk to me. Why do you think Goku would want to reincarnate Buu if there wasn't something special about him? Do you think he'd be excited if Uub wasn't strong? You don't know what mountains I'm talking about? Then ask.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by Vijay » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:57 am

Ahem...merely returning the favor ABED. Weren't you the one who ignored my post, yet reply past my post on specific points before?

Despite knwin ur not gonna take my points srsly & pretty much disagree with whatever said to ya...I'll mention my points. Goku is..well, Goku. Kid Buu earned Goku's respect for outlasting his strongest state, SSJ3, massacred SSJ2 Vegeta, Good Boo, and had the strength to repel Super Genki Dama @ Goku himself...tbh, Goku isn't the kinda guy who wishes to win a fight frm outside assistance. We saw it as early as 23rd TB when Kami intervened to protect Teen Goku from Piccolo Jr's seemingly fatal attack

But Kid Buu's case is different. Most of the fighters were out of options, and resorted to collective effort. Which is not Goku's style

Dude always craves for genuine one-on-one fight. And seeing how Kid Buu was whooping all their asses single-handedly is obviously an itch Goku couldn't forget. Hence, wished for him to be reincarnated.

Uub wasnt strong as Goku anticipated. Enraged Uub was...despite lacking flight skills. And considering how his sons & Trunks became hopelessly domesticated, Uub was shining knight Goku was looking for in next-gen fighter. As he once saw in Kid Gohan, Kid Goten & Trunks

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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:31 am

I was discussing a point you made. I didn't talk past you. My posts weren't about you as a person. I wasn't talking about you to another poster like you weren't in the room.
Vijay wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:57 am
Despite knwin ur not gonna take my points srsly & pretty much disagree with whatever said to ya
I don't disagree with people for shits and giggles and don't take disagreement as though someone hasn't taken the time to consider your point.

Having read it, I agree that Goku asked for him to be reincarnated because he was so strong. I never said otherwise and I pointed it out. It sees like you think you are explaining to me something I missed. I know all that

Uub had raw power that he didn't know how to use or bring out hence why Goku leaves to train him. Nothing you've written disproves my point that Uub represents something to Goku. It's why he leaves with him, it's why he's introduced at the end of the story. We're actually in agreement
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:38 am

The ending of the 1984-1995 Dragon Ball comic by Toriyama Akira plays into what is called the deconstruction of the Grand Narrative in Japanese media. From Beautiful Fighting Girl:
Unlike their close relatives the maniacs, who covet objects that take material form (such as stamps or coins), the otaku are drawn to entirely fictional objects (such as anime characters) that they seek to "possess" by fictionalizing them further in narratives of their own creation. But the most important characteristic of Saito's otaku is their ability to eroticize fictional characters. It is the otaku's sexuality, then, that really distinguishes them for Saito. He explores it using Lacanian psychoanalysis, which may not be to everyone's taste, but he does so without the slightest trace of moralizing judgment, which is refreshing and long overdue.
Similarly, we know that Toriyama's intention was to make the ending of the series feel like it could keep going on, because in Toriyama's vision, Dragon Ball--as now perfectly encapsulated in new Dragon Ball media from 2008-present--is not about narratives but about characters. Series like Sazae-san, Doraemon, Crayon Shin-chan, and Metantei Conan are similarly so. The United States' very own The Simpsons also operates as such, although without the writing staff and animation staff sticking to creating interesting characters, but rather distilling them down to boring cardboard cutouts in later seasons.
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Re: The push for GT at the end of Z

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:42 am

I don't know about any of that but it's still an ending that works regardless of whether the story did continue. The characters have reached the end of their arcs and all the plot threads had been resolved.

The Simpsons is very different because it's not a serialized show. If it ends it has no plot threads it needs to tie up or character arcs in need of resolution.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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