"You're a Weeb"

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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:00 pm

I have to say, I definitely recommend reading Beautiful Fighting Girl (Saitou Tamaki, 2000) and the various Patrick W. Galbraith texts, specifically The Moe Manifesto (2017; great interviews with Otaku and non-Otaku) and Otaku and the Struggle for Imagination in Japan (2019). They're jam-packed with really interesting historical notes about Otaku subculture.

Like, there's clearly multiple types of Otaku (which themselves have a cousin species, the maniac) but the origin of the word is a homophobic and transphobic attack on people assigned male at birth whom Nakamori deigned not being masculine enough. This mentality of his is in direct contradiction to the facts of the situation: gender is not some binary and some asshole idol fan who dresses up nicely cannot prescribe or rescind anyone's masculinity. Further more, Otaku are quantifiably very, very social-able. They might be awkward, but hell, people in general are one type of awkward or another. Otaku perform their passion: whether through cosplay, creating figures, creating fanzines (doujinshi), illustrations or more. Otaku gather in massive numbers to perform their passions for one another at the Comic Market and other events.

Below is an excerpt from Saitou Tamaki on the difference between Otaku and Maniacs. It's part of a larger section of his book Beautiful Fighting Girl that goes into detail about asking "What is an Otaku?" and is just a fun little excerpt.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Thanos » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:28 pm

This argument just doesn't make sense at all. From the jump, liking one thing in and of itself does not mean you're a "weeb". Take me for example, I don't even really like anime in general but I love Dragon Ball, and strictly the Japanese version. And surely if you're someone who exclusively watches anime and nothing else and only in dub form, there's a good chance you are a weeb. My favorite is seeing Kikuchi vs. Faulconer debates on YouTube and the Faulconer fans referring to anyone who prefers the Kikuchi OST as weebs... I don't even know where to start with that one. The "X" button on my browser is usually what I go with, though. I've been called a weeb for believing Nozawa is superior to Schemmel. Me, someone who watches 99.9% Western live action media. A weeb. Sure.

No hate toward any weebs here, by the way. I'm sure I'm in the minority not being one. Like what you like, go mental.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Zestanor » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:28 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:43 am
Zestanor wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:39 am
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:11 am
Otaku
Read the wikipedia article on otaku. With all due respect I think you are projecting yourself and your experiences and interactions onto the concept instead of considering it academically. It’s basically equivalent to geek, which originally was neutral, then gained a stigma, then lost the stigma, at least in some uses.
I've literally cited the books I'm taking from. This isn't me speaking. This is laying out the facts of the history presented in the text I've read.
I don’t doubt that you’ve properly cited your sources, but with all due respect (and I assume you will agree?), you are heavily inclined to view subjects within the lens of LGBT and feminism. No one can deny that you bring an intriguing perspective to the table when you do this, but there is more to the story than this. The wikipedia article gives basically the same summary as you did but it says nothing about judging people’s masculinity. I’m not saying your source is bogus—not at all. However, the fact that this is omitted from the wiki article signals to me that there is another valid take on this that deserves a hearing. Wikipedia is generally reliable for subjects that are niche abd not polarizing.

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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:47 pm

Metalwario64 wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:38 pmIt's not a Dragon Ball problem by any means.

These days anytime anyone says they prefer the Japanese version of an anime, you have these types of people crawling out of the woodwork to say "OMG I watch MY anime in English you weeb!!" These days, just liking anything Japanese at all is enough to get you called a "weeb." :roll:
Wow, they call it 'anime'? They're called 'Japanese cartoons' or 'Japanese animation'. Fuckin' weebs.
Zestanor wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:28 pmI don’t doubt that you’ve properly cited your sources, but with all due respect (and I assume you will agree?), you are heavily inclined to view subjects within the lens of LGBT and feminism. No one can deny that you bring an intriguing perspective to the table when you do this, but there is more to the story than this. The wikipedia article gives basically the same summary as you did but it says nothing about judging people’s masculinity. I’m not saying your source is bogus—not at all. However, the fact that this is omitted from the wiki article signals to me that there is another valid take on this that deserves a hearing. Wikipedia is generally reliable for subjects that are niche abd not polarizing.
Honey, Nakamori--in 1983--calls 'men' (or people who he deigned to be men) to be faggots because they prefer 2D girls. You don't get anymore disparaging of someone's perceived lack of masculinity than that.

The origin of the term is of derision and abuse. Otaku have taken the term for their own but my point has only ever been to clarify the origin of the term.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:18 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:47 pmThe origin of the term is of derision and abuse. Otaku have taken the term for their own but my point has only ever been to clarify the origin of the term.
Tangentially related, but this convo reminded me that fujoshi has similar origins, in terms of being a fairly horrible term, to a term that's been reclaimed by some people

Anyway, thank you for the links and such - I had read some of Saitō Tamaki's work, but a lot of the other links are new to me - I'm going to enjoy digging into this!
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by samuraix123 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:21 pm

I have a online friend that has said that before especially if you talk about Anime around him, but Kanzenshuu is the only Anime forum that I belong too or will discuss stuff because I know how people on the Internet are. but I have to admit that in the real world I have talked with Random people in stores and nobody has ever called me anything in real life. haha I hate that there's stigmas and stuff attached to stuff like that. Trust me, I've grinded my fingers and body into the ground on my grandfathers farm and worked mattock and shovels until I've tore my finger nails open haha so I don't think by watching Anime that I'm a weeb? or weakling? lol I feel the more I stay away from the Internet, the less drama I have to deal with from idiots on keyboards. :lol:
Out of curiosity, What sites besides Youtube are you seeing that stuff at? I know I used to love to go to Gamefaqs, Now? It's awful there. filled with nothing but trolls, fanboys, and people just looking to start trouble. hate to talk bad about a site on here but the truths the truth.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:20 pm

I don’t know man, I really don’t like the waifu crap or using words like boyfurendo, kawaii in english, but being weaboo for liking japanese original of Japanese show? That is rather being purist... for me, the english dub is horiffic as I grew up on German and French dubs, logically switching for subtitled japanese to enjoy the original.

Second thing, I really don’t like US dubs and I seriously think they are bad. I haven’t seen a show that wasn’t dubbed so it won’t hurt my ears and thought for a long time, that it is just anime thing... well, then I saw other dubs as recently Money Heist and Dark... had to switch to original languages. Wow, the english dub is so bad in everything. And I find it interesting as english is my second language and I really like it in music, movies... what am I then?

But seriously I hate Otaku culture for all this sexist crap, but there is nothing wrong with enjoying other cultures and watching japanese show and calling others weeaboos is rather bizzare :)
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 pm

Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:18 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:47 pmThe origin of the term is of derision and abuse. Otaku have taken the term for their own but my point has only ever been to clarify the origin of the term.
Tangentially related, but this convo reminded me that fujoshi has similar origins, in terms of being a fairly horrible term, to a term that's been reclaimed by some people

Anyway, thank you for the links and such - I had read some of Saitō Tamaki's work, but a lot of the other links are new to me - I'm going to enjoy digging into this!
Yeah, fujoshi literally refers to a 'rotten girl'. Fujoshi--like Otaku--are very referential. They love to fictionalize things, therefore like Otaku they took their insult and turned it into a self-referential, self-deprecating badge of pride. I mean, I'll shit post all the time about how much I want to see two hot anime boys fuck one another (Amuro x Char is just so fucking hot), so I'm probably a fujoshi to some degree although I'm not sure what. One day I want to track down some of the writings of Kotani Mari, a first generation cosplayer and feminist.

Beautiful Fighting Girl is a nice book for a look into the history and pathology of Otaku. I seem to recall having some of my own thoughts on a few issues within the book--namely how it focuses only on supposedly cishet men--but it's still a good starter book. Patrick W. Galbraith's work is also fascinating. I suggest reading this awesome six-part interview between Galbraith and Henry Jenkins, too.

So, so few western anime fans tackle the history of Japanese fandom and it's such a shame because without understand fandom you'll never understand post-Yamato/Gundam anime.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:50 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 pm
Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:18 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:47 pmThe origin of the term is of derision and abuse. Otaku have taken the term for their own but my point has only ever been to clarify the origin of the term.
Tangentially related, but this convo reminded me that fujoshi has similar origins, in terms of being a fairly horrible term, to a term that's been reclaimed by some people

Anyway, thank you for the links and such - I had read some of Saitō Tamaki's work, but a lot of the other links are new to me - I'm going to enjoy digging into this!
Yeah, fujoshi literally refers to a 'rotten girl'. Fujoshi--like Otaku--are very referential. They love to fictionalize things, therefore like Otaku they took their insult and turned it into a self-referential, self-deprecating badge of pride. I mean, I'll shit post all the time about how much I want to see two hot anime boys fuck one another (Amuro x Char is just so fucking hot), so I'm probably a fujoshi to some degree although I'm not sure what. One day I want to track down some of the writings of Kotani Mari, a first generation cosplayer and feminist.

Beautiful Fighting Girl is a nice book for a look into the history and pathology of Otaku. I seem to recall having some of my own thoughts on a few issues within the book--namely how it focuses only on supposedly cishet men--but it's still a good starter book. Patrick W. Galbraith's work is also fascinating. I suggest reading this awesome six-part interview between Galbraith and Henry Jenkins, too.

So, so few western anime fans tackle the history of Japanese fandom and it's such a shame because without understand fandom you'll never understand post-Yamato/Gundam anime.
To go into deeper on fujoshi - the specific misogynistic meaning behind "rotten girl" is, the idea that "this rotten girl loves male on male fiction so much, she's obsessed, she won't ever get married, thus she'll be useless".
I know some people that happily call themselves fujoshi, it's really great to see them say things like "why do I need to get married when I have doujinshi?" - I love that

Thank you so much for those links!
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:01 pm

Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:50 pm To go into deeper on fujoshi - the specific misogynistic meaning behind "rotten girl" is, the idea that "this rotten girl loves male on male fiction so much, she's obsessed, she won't ever get married, thus she'll be useless".
I know some people that happily call themselves fujoshi, it's really great to see them say things like "why do I need to get married when I have doujinshi?" - I love that

Thank you so much for those links!
Ah, that origin makes sense. It's really misogynistic to imply a woman needs to get married. Otaku are the type to make fun of themselves by leaning into those tropes in their fiction--how many doujinshi have ugly fat bastards defiling cute girls? Nevertheless, it reminds me of how I feel when someone tries to define my gender roles and sexuality. Although, like Otaku, fujoshi also get married (sometimes to Otaku or fujoshi). Beautiful Fighting Girl goes on about how while Otaku will creative doujinshi with the most vile fucking shit possible their actual sexual preferences are vanilla. It's really not that unlikely. :lol: I for one love to self-insert into books where a woman is being...uh...defiled by some guy or an orc. Sometimes y'just wanna get turned into a orc's sex slave! :lol: Similarly, more concretely defined fujoshi will create indie comics about men fucking one another to get off. It is what it is. :lol:
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:07 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:01 pmBeautiful Fighting Girl goes on about how while Otaku will creative doujinshi with the most vile fucking shit possible their actual sexual preferences are vanilla. It's really not that unlikely. :lol: I for one love to self-insert into books where a woman is being...uh...defiled by some guy or an orc. Sometimes y'just wanna get turned into a orc's sex slave! :lol: Similarly, more concretely defined fujoshi will create indie comics about men fucking one another to get off. It is what it is. :lol:
Honestly as a doujin artist myself - sometimes I just wanna draw weird stuff. It's fun, gets the noggin joggin on how to make something that I'm not personally into appealing. I like a good challenge.

As for the topic of the thread -

For me, I formally used weeb in its "original" meaning - people that obsess with/fetishize Japan/Japanese people, you know the kinds. People that want to act like Japan is an anime wonderland, and nothing else goes on there. Bleh. Or people that really really wanna be Japanese, but are not.
Since it's become bastardized to just call anyone that likes anime it - I default to calling THOSE types "creepy racists"

If people are just calling anyone that like anime, a "weeb" in seriousness and not as a joke - people will always find something to hate on others for. Just let it roll off your back, like water off a duck's
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 pm

Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:07 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:01 pmBeautiful Fighting Girl goes on about how while Otaku will creative doujinshi with the most vile fucking shit possible their actual sexual preferences are vanilla. It's really not that unlikely. :lol: I for one love to self-insert into books where a woman is being...uh...defiled by some guy or an orc. Sometimes y'just wanna get turned into a orc's sex slave! :lol: Similarly, more concretely defined fujoshi will create indie comics about men fucking one another to get off. It is what it is. :lol:
Honestly as a doujin artist myself - sometimes I just wanna draw weird stuff. It's fun, gets the noggin joggin on how to make something that I'm not personally into appealing. I like a good challenge.

As for the topic of the thread -

For me, I formally used weeb in its "original" meaning - people that obsess with/fetishize Japan/Japanese people, you know the kinds. People that want to act like Japan is an anime wonderland, and nothing else goes on there. Bleh. Or people that really really wanna be Japanese, but are not.
Since it's become bastardized to just call anyone that likes anime it - I default to calling THOSE types "creepy racists"

If people are just calling anyone that like anime, a "weeb" in seriousness and not as a joke - people will always find something to hate on others for. Just let it roll off your back, like water off a duck's
Yeah, I've come to learn not the judge people over the things they draw for sex-based reasons or whatever. There was a ShindoL on-camera interview where he just comes off as the most unassuming guy ever and it's just really quaint knowing he of all people created some of my favorite comics (Metamorphosis, among others). I also think it's important to expand on the art of storytelling, so combing these horrifying things with good characterization and story is very important. It's something that's inspired me in my own writing for sure.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:28 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 pmI also think it's important to expand on the art of storytelling, so combing these horrifying things with good characterization and story is very important. It's something that's inspired me in my own writing for sure.
No one will ever know how some of my more filthy doujinshi were created just to explore my sexuality/gender/general ID

Wait fuck no, don't read this, aw no cat's out the bag now
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:46 pm

Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:28 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 pmI also think it's important to expand on the art of storytelling, so combing these horrifying things with good characterization and story is very important. It's something that's inspired me in my own writing for sure.
No one will ever know how some of my more filthy doujinshi were created just to explore my sexuality/gender/general ID

Wait fuck no, don't read this, aw no cat's out the bag now
Haha, I don't blame you. It took me 15+ years of just reading gender bender comics to realize "Hey, maybe I'm a woman...and into men...*gulp*" "I'm not trans, I just really identify with women and want to look like them and have kids! I'm totally a cishet man!"
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:52 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:46 pm
Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:28 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:22 pmI also think it's important to expand on the art of storytelling, so combing these horrifying things with good characterization and story is very important. It's something that's inspired me in my own writing for sure.
No one will ever know how some of my more filthy doujinshi were created just to explore my sexuality/gender/general ID

Wait fuck no, don't read this, aw no cat's out the bag now
Haha, I don't blame you. It took me 15+ years of just reading gender bender comics to realize "Hey, maybe I'm a woman...and into men...*gulp*" "I'm not trans, I just really identify with women and want to look like them and have kids! I'm totally a cishet man!"
The struggle is real - for me it's more like "what the hell is these gender binaries, I don't like this" - I'm glad you made a breakthrough! I'm sure the relief and euphoria was incredible.
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:00 pm

Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:52 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:46 pm
Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:28 pm

No one will ever know how some of my more filthy doujinshi were created just to explore my sexuality/gender/general ID

Wait fuck no, don't read this, aw no cat's out the bag now
Haha, I don't blame you. It took me 15+ years of just reading gender bender comics to realize "Hey, maybe I'm a woman...and into men...*gulp*" "I'm not trans, I just really identify with women and want to look like them and have kids! I'm totally a cishet man!"
The struggle is real - for me it's more like "what the hell is these gender binaries, I don't like this" - I'm glad you made a breakthrough! I'm sure the relief and euphoria was incredible.
I wasn't sure what I was going through for so, so long. It really sucked. Learning about real trans people and the fact that sexuality changes with age definitely gave me the courage to just do what I wanted: switch to she/her pronouns and begin taking HRT. Being into anime and the like really helped give me that sort of confidence. A big part of that was how moe I found Tsuru Hiromi's Blooma in the 1986 Dragon Ball animated series. "Ah, I guess I don't have to pretend to not like cute things!" then that feeling kept growing, especially as I learned more about the outside world through my job and took interest in LGBTQIA+ stuff and labor rights. Blooma being both cute but also crude really gave me a new perspective on what gender was. Characters like Asuna from SAO (with whom I also understood their parental woes) really gave me the comfort to just say "Eeehh, fuck it! I'm a girl!" I'm not the most feminine girl in the world but I'm definitely most comfortable as a girl.

Our curiosity, are you a Japanese person? Your location lists Oosaka so I'm kind of curious now. :lol:
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Locust » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:00 pmOur curiosity, are you a Japanese person? Your location lists Oosaka so I'm kind of curious now. :lol:
I am mixed race, some Asian, and a bunch of other things :>
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:07 pm

You must be This Emotionally Tall to be a grown up discussing Japanese cartoons and comics on the internet. Any shorter and you're a weapoo.
Locust wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:04 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:00 pmOur curiosity, are you a Japanese person? Your location lists Oosaka so I'm kind of curious now. :lol:
I am mixed race, some Asian, and a bunch of other things :>
Aaah, cool, cool. :D
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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by kei17 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:40 pm

Every time I see this sort of a discussion, I reacknowledge Funimation's sin of marketing the franchise as "badass hardcore cartoon DeeBeeZee." It seems to have worked well in a way, but it ended up badly distorting the nature of the series and made it recognized by a lot of people in a wrong way.

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Re: "You're a Weeb"

Post by Yuli Ban » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:43 pm

kei17 wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:40 pm Every time I see this sort of a discussion, I reacknowledge Funimation's sin of marketing the franchise as "badass hardcore cartoon DeeBeeZee." It seems to have worked well in a way, but it ended up badly distorting the nature of the series and made it recognized by a lot of people in a wrong way.
You're 100% right, but I do have to admit: to little kids of the late 90s, Dragon Ball Z was a badass hardcore cartoon. They weren't allowed to see the shows that did things it was doing before it, and plenty of even grown up Americans hadn't seen the more adult-oriented French, Japanese, and Russian animation of the previous decades. Thus this ostensibly "children's cartoon" that featured actual blood and death (even if it was oft hidden) and sexual predators and real consequences (compared to the usual episodic shows that were on primetime TV and cartoon networks) on the surface seemed like exactly what FUNi made it out to be, even cutting through the hilariously bad dub job.

The issue is really that it took until roughly the rise of YouTube and easy access to subs & imports to get the "real" Dragon Ball in America, and that was years after Dragon Ball Z went off the air. Not only that, but Dragon Ball Z was like the last hurrah of those 90s Macekre dub jobs; especially by 2003 onwards, even FUNimation was doing a vastly better job at dubbing stuff. And there's no better example of how different things got than by using the shonen anime that basically became the "new" DBZ— Naruto. Its dub job was supremely better than what we got for Dragon Ball (though we still got the US family-friendly edited version at first); the music wasn't changed and the voices made at least a half-hearted attempt to sound like their Japanese counterparts. Character motivations weren't changed, and attack names were translated directly (AFAIK). It was the kind of dub that older Dragon Ball fans wish they had gotten, even if it was still not perfectly ideal (as mentioned, it wasn't until fans could just directly stream the Japanese version online that the dubbing companies could no longer get away with any of their earlier practices, and it wasn't until Toonami went off the air that anime in North America no longer had to be edited down to FCC standards).

Dragon Ball, unfortunately, came and went in America just before all that, and all of the dubbing faults carried on with the fandom to the present so that even in this era where fans typically want near word-for-word perfect dubs, FUNi found it better to just do their own thing because that's what the vast bulk of American fans wanted.
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