The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

[Robo4900]

Not sure if these are criticizing me specifically or not, but I want to respond to the general sentiment either way.

Me? Not really. Sorry if it seemed that way, I'm bad at not coming off as a dickbag when I share a strongly-held opinion. But in general, it does frustrate me to see elitism for any particular version. But, on the other hand, I do think it's sensible to acknowledge the difference.

Main reason I quoted dbzfan94 was as a jumping off point to make my points, not to pile on you. Sorry. I could have made that way clearer.

The dub vs. sub debate is a very real fault line that informs a lot of the reasons why the western Dragon Ball fandom is the way it is. People shouldn't attack others for their preferences, but ignoring/downplaying the significance of this doesn't help either.

Neither is ignoring the very real differences between the versions that make certain discussions difficult to have among fans of those different versions. As a fan of Japanese DBZ, I've outright stopped talking about DBZ outside of this forum unless I'm with like-minded people or people I know won't give me shit for my preferences because a discussion almost inevitably leads to something that wasn't the same across our preferred versions, resulting in crossed signals at best and outright mockery at my expense at worst.

I generally agree with you. Though dub vs sub can so easily devolve into just "lol the dubs are so bad" (or, outside this forum, "lol nozawa is shitty grandma goku", or alternately "lol why does piccolo sound like wolverine in the ocean dub? lol so bad"), I have a hard time seeing much value in that discussion coming up by itself anymore in 2020.

For the record, I have watched all of the Funi/Saban dub and over 3/4ths of the Funi dub (I dropped off in the middle of the Buu arc once we got the International Channel). Even after finding out about the Japanese version around the time of Season 3, I still had to watch the dub for longer than I would have liked because I couldn't afford to purchase fansubs.

I've watched more than enough of dubbed DBZ to know that I don't like it and prefer Japanese DBZ.

Fair. I meant it more generally. Specifically, that part, I was more trying to aim it at people who refuse to watch any version other than Funi's English dubs. People like that should really give the Japanese versions a try, or maybe even Ocean's dubs.

Good for you, but that's not everyone's experience. People don't have to accept versions of the show they don't like.

I mean, you kinda do have to accept them, in that they exist, and every version has its fans. You can dislike any version, but you can't deny the appeal of something that has as many fans as... Well, ANY version of Dragon Ball.

Criticise a version as you wish, ignore it, dislike it, but you can't deny it has some value.
The Faulconer score is beloved by a whole generation of fans. It's not just pure nostalgia; there are some bangers in that score, there's some interesting interweaving of themes, it has a somewhat charming sound from the low-budget synthesisers they had to use, and even though it drastically changed the tone compared to the original, different doesn't always mean bad.
Ideally, a dub would be an accurate English version of the original Japanese version, but in Dragon Ball, the dubs aren't just translations, they are different, divergent versions. Adaptations, perhaps. You don't have to like every version, but each and every version has its fans, who like it for their own reasons.

I rambled a bit there, but I think I got to the core of the issue...?

There's a difference between criticizing a voice actor's performance and "shitting" on them. I'll disagree with those who criticize Nozawa's performance as Goku till the end of time, but I recognize that merely saying you don't like her as Adult Goku because she doesn't sound masculine enough isn't "shitting" on her.

Sure.

Personally, I think Chris Sabat as Piccolo Daimao in Funi's dub doesn't quite have the eccentric, weird menace that Piccolo Daimao should have... That's not to say Chris Sabat is a bad actor, or Funi's casting directors at the time were bad at their jobs, or even that Chris Sabat gave a bad performance in the role (which he really didn't), I just personally think another approach, or another actor, would have been a closer analogue to the original intention of the character. Much like Freeza, though, they probably just didn't know how Piccolo Daimao is supposed to be, and specifically in this case how he is different from the Piccolo we know in Z, because of their limited exposure to the original Japanese version at the time.

That's a criticism of Chris Sabat as Piccolo Daimao. It would be easy for me to then take that and go "and therefore, because he didn't perform the role in the way I would prefer, he is shit." And many people do take it that far. I have in the past... But it's an immature, shitty way to act (and it's wrong anyway; Sabat is a fine actor, and even though Piccolo Daimao in Funi's dub has a very different feel from the original Japanese, he's a well-performed version of the version of the character Funi presented). And I'm kinda tired of this kind of attitude, y'know?...

IDK. When I've held a shitty attitude or point of view, I tend to get very worked up about that attitude in general once I realise how shitty it is.

[Dr. Casey]

Toriyama was never forced to continue the series past Freeza (or Cell), so it’s not like he had zero passion for the stuff that came after that point.

The impression I've always gotten is that fatigue was only an issue during the Buu arc, and even then only some of Buu (I sense a lot of enthusiasm during the early Buu arc, and think Toriyama found the idea of a seven year timeskip where a great deal changes rejuvenating). I don't sense any kind of exhaustion or burnout with Cell; it was probably much weaker then, if it existed at all. That's not based off of anything concrete in the absolute slightest and I could be completely wrong, but I wrote an incredibly long story and started experiencing burnout well before the end, and there's just something about the Buu arc which gives off some very familiar 'burnout' vibes to me that are mostly if not entirely absent from Cell.

If Robo's last sentence assumes this, my apology.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Robo agrees with you and was saying that doing things that way in the 90s was acceptable and understandable. Very different circumstances and most of us were kids back then to boot. I wasn't into Dragon Ball in 1996, but whenever the dub first started airing the September of '96, I'd just turned 9 and we didn't have the internet at our home. Not a whole lot of opportunity to learn about the series' origins or procure any kind of subtitled episodes.

[LoganForkHands73]

2. "Fandom", insofar as it is centered on having a community (constructed around some mutually-emotionally-familiar person or piece of art) rather than on discussing the relevant aesthetic merit, is by this point in time little more than a glorified capitalist cult. If this seems like an incredibly bizarre and out-there hill to die on, look into Edward Bernays, and what his ideas are, and how they have been used, and by whom. Chew on these well-documented historical connections until you begin to appreciate how thoroughly surrounded-at-all-times we are by his ideas in action (and then try to speak of a "free" market with reference to any of it).

For added effect, remind yourself what kinds of consequences supporting certain brands can have. Any person or company can do this if they make enough money, obviously, but popular brands which cultivate devoted fandoms have a steady source of money, to do with whatever they please. Supporting a brand you like out of some propaganda-instilled duty to "consume legal product" all-too-easily risks complicity in sweat shops, factory farms, the rape culture that pervades the entertainment industry, and of course genocide.

When everyone is focused on the "franchise", or keeping up with all of the "merchandise", on top of paying relatively little mind or effort to matters of genuine intellectual depth, discussing Dragon Ball (the funny comic written and drawn by Akira Toriyama) makes my skin crawl. I'm once again not putting anyone down, here. I was a Power Rangers fiend as a kid, and I didn't realize for a long time what sorts of indirect consequences even seemingly innocent and private actions can have in a social-system as intimately and thoroughly connected as the one we have today.

Heh. Thought I recognised that name, read Bernays' Propaganda years back and it's still on my shelf. That's another one to revisit sometime.

Anyway, not to go too far into "cons00m product" bashing but there was a post on here recently calling for fans to create a donation drive directly to Toriyama. A charity for a (probable) millionaire. Please note, I'm not here to bash the guy who made that thread but I find it relevant. I think that serves as another exemplar of how far along cult fandom devotion has come that some are apparently no longer satisfied with major figures in the entertainment industry making millions off their successful independent properties, and now want to give these more-than-well-off celebrities even more money for literally nothing. I find it to be, at the very least, a concerning mentality that some fan communities have for the creators of their products. The people involved in Dragon Ball who probably need extra income most are the poor animators and other "little men" that are getting worked to death in Japan's toxic employment culture.

Not saying that Toriyama hasn't earned his fortune. He definitely has. He's worked himself to the bone for decades. But I think it's partly because he doesn't openly squander his wealth or keep up public appearances that he's generated such a dedicated cult following. It's quite impressive that Toriyama has kept himself as private as possible from the tabloids that people genuinely think he lives in squalor like Steve Ditko or something.

[Robo4900]

Toriyama was never forced to continue the series past Freeza (or Cell), so it’s not like he had zero passion for the stuff that came after that point.

The impression I've always gotten is that fatigue was only an issue during the Buu arc, and even then only some of Buu (I sense a lot of enthusiasm during the early Buu arc, and think Toriyama found the idea of a seven year timeskip where a great deal changes rejuvenating). I don't sense any kind of exhaustion or burnout with Cell; it was probably much weaker then, if it existed at all. That's not based off of anything concrete in the absolute slightest and I could be completely wrong, but I wrote an incredibly long story and started experiencing burnout well before the end, and there's just something about the Buu arc which gives off some very familiar 'burnout' vibes to me that are mostly if not entirely absent from Cell.

TBH, I don't think Toriyama lost any of his enthusiasm until mid-Boo.

I do think he intended Boo to be the final arc, from the very outset of it, and I think as early as the Cell arc, he was having trouble coming up with new ideas to keep Dragon Ball fresh, but I don't think anything particularly forced him -- nor was there any obligation for him -- to continue on. I think he ceased doing Dragon Ball exactly when he wanted to stop, and not a moment sooner or later.

If Robo's last sentence assumes this, my apology.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Robo agrees with you and was saying that doing things that way in the 90s was acceptable and understandable. Very different circumstances and most of us were kids back then to boot. I wasn't into Dragon Ball in 1996, but whenever the dub first started airing the September of '96, I'd just turned 9 and we didn't have the internet at our home. Not a whole lot of opportunity to learn about the series' origins or procure any kind of subtitled episodes.

Yeah. It's fine, though. Misinterpreting one line at the end of a not-exactly-short post is no sin in my book.

And indeed; 1996 was a very, VERY different time. Not just for the fans, either -- the companies handling this stuff were in a pretty different situation too.

[Matches Malone]

Sure in the same way T2 continues and concludes Terminator in organic ways but The Terminator is still a complete story.

The difference is that DB didn't end after Namek, take a 7 year break, then come back with the Cell and Buu arcs. The Namek arc didn't conclude anything, and in the manga, it ends with a massive cliff hanger of Freeza and Cold going to earth.

[Zestanor]

My hill to die on: “Piracy” is the inevitable result of crappy and overpriced home releases and increased internet download speeds. It is a spontaneous thing, not a malicious one. Big corporations need to factor it into their business model instead of pretending there’s a way to make it go away. Also home video is dead.

This is coming from someone who bought the US Dragon Boxes and Blue Bricks when they came out abd still owns them. Yarrgh.

[Matches Malone]

The impression I've always gotten is that fatigue was only an issue during the Buu arc, and even then only some of Buu.

I think you can see the fatigue in the fights, as they're extremely short, even the very final battle between Ssj3 Goku/Ssj2 Vegeta and Kid Buu. Thankfully the anime managed to extend them to what you'd expect from a DB fight.

I do think he intended Boo to be the final arc, from the very outset of it.

I don't think anything particularly forced him -- nor was there any obligation for him -- to continue on.

I think he ceased doing Dragon Ball exactly when he wanted to stop, and not a moment sooner or later.

He did, in an interview from 2014, he said he started the arc with the idea of it being the last one, he just didn't figure out the actual ending until he reached it.

This is also true, as in the same interview he said he didn't feel that the Cell arc was a fitting ending, so he decided to write one more arc. He decided to end it with Buu because he didn't think there was any logical way to make Goku even stronger.

I completely agree. The manga as it is didn't end an arc too late or an arc short, it felt just right. Everything up to that point was wrapped up nicely, and it felt like everything that could be done with DB was given to us. This is why I don't understand the idea that DB should've gone on for an additional 200+ episodes, as there just wasn't much more you could do with it, as we're seeing with modern DB.

“Piracy” is the inevitable result of crappy and overpriced home releases and increased internet download speeds.

Home video is dead.

I completely agree with this, as we're now seeing 13 episode box sets for $65+ which is completely insane and overpriced. I'm not into piracy, but I definitely wait a lot longer to buy anime than I used to due to these insane prices they have on release day.

I've been hearing this for 10 years now, and it's still alive and kicking.

[ArmenianPepsi]

My hill to die on: “Piracy” is the inevitable result of crappy and overpriced home releases and increased internet download speeds. It is a spontaneous thing, not a malicious one. Big corporations need to factor it into their business model instead of pretending there’s a way to make it go away. Also home video is dead.

This is coming from someone who bought the US Dragon Boxes and Blue Bricks when they came out abd still owns them. Yarrgh.

This may not be 100% on the topic of Dragon Ball, but this makes me think of game piracy in a way.

Gabe Newell said that the best way to combat piracy is to give customers a better experience than what the pirates give them. This is true. Playing a game on Steam will always be a infinitely better experience than pirating games. Only very rarely is that not the case.

With DB home media, Toei nor Funi are yet to even play catch-up with the kind of things piracy has been offering DB fans for years.

[Soppa Saia People]

The impression I've always gotten is that fatigue was only an issue during the Buu arc, and even then only some of Buu (I sense a lot of enthusiasm during the early Buu arc, and think Toriyama found the idea of a seven year timeskip where a great deal changes rejuvenating). I don't sense any kind of exhaustion or burnout with Cell; it was probably much weaker then, if it existed at all. That's not based off of anything concrete in the absolute slightest and I could be completely wrong, but I wrote an incredibly long story and started experiencing burnout well before the end, and there's just something about the Buu arc which gives off some very familiar 'burnout' vibes to me that are mostly if not entirely absent from Cell.

TBH, I don't think Toriyama lost any of his enthusiasm until mid-Boo.

yeah honestly, i think a lot of things at the start of the boo arc kinda show toriyama was pretty enthused writing it. the art picks up a lot after it kinda dropped off near the end of the cell games, a lot more focus on humor and gags, a return to a classic dragon ball concept like a tournament, and just overall, a lot fresher tone then the previous 2 arcs, to me at least. there's even little stuff like the fact that he gave the series a new logo for the chapter titles pages.

it's not really till the middle of the boo arc where things like the art quality gets noticeable worse, chapter title pages becoming almost non existent, chapters having >15 pages, etc, start happening. whether or not stuff like that was due to the fact that he lost passion for the series, or because the guy had been drawing weekly comics for pretty much 15 years straight well also working on stuff like dragon quest and chrono trigger, it was pretty clear that there was some sorta burn out happening.

[ABED]

Sure in the same way T2 continues and concludes Terminator in organic ways but The Terminator is still a complete story.

The difference is that DB didn't end after Namek, take a 7 year break, then come back with the Cell and Buu arcs. The Namek arc didn't conclude anything, and in the manga, it ends with a massive cliff hanger of Freeza and Cold going to earth.

The changes to make it work as an ending are very minor like Freeza dying on Namek. Piccolo and Kami don't need a reconciliation. They are one whether that's physical or not. They can read each other's minds. Gohan's arc is complete by Namek. Even the fight against Goku and Vegeta wasn't necessary by this point. Goku is so overwhelmingly stronger that you can merely convey that both will train for the innevitable rematch much in the same way Goku and Piccolo left things off at the end of the 23rd TB.

[Matches Malone]

Gohan's arc is complete by Namek.

Even the fight against Goku and Vegeta wasn't necessary by this point.

Goku is so overwhelmingly stronger that you can merely convey that both will train for the innevitable rematch much in the same way Goku and Piccolo left things off at the end of the 23rd TB.

No it wasn't, not even close. We were constantly told about his hidden power, but never actually saw it until his fight with Cell. We also barely got any scenes between him and Goku.

That fight is the whole reason Goku let Vegeta live.

If I have to imagine how multiple plot points tied up, then that means there was more to see.

[ABED]

Pulling out hidden power (which is of course BS because it was "unlocked" several times) is not a character arc. That's just a power up. His arc was concluded when he learned to use his power and matured. He starts off as a young sheltered child and became more confident so much so that he stood up to his own mother and told her he was going to go to Namek. That's a completed arc.

I'll die on this hill that Gohan's journey was not to unlock his hidden power for the millionth time. His journey was one of gaining confidence and self sufficiency.

Yes and Goku lets Piccolo live in part to keep himself on his toes. Goku is a Super Saiyan and much stronger than Vegeta by the end. We don't need to see the rematch at this point. You can easily hint that Vegeta and Goku are training for that day. At the end of the Namek arc, Vegeta has completed a journey. He's been broken and surpassed.

[Matches Malone]

Yes and Goku lets Piccolo live in part to keep himself on his toes. Goku is a Super Saiyan and much stronger than Vegeta by the end. We don't need to see the rematch at this point. You can easily hint that Vegeta and Goku are training for that day. At the end of the Namek arc, Vegeta has completed a journey. He's been broken and surpassed.

You could also end things after the Saiyan arc, just hint that everything went OK on Namek, and hint that Vegeta came back to earth one day and fought Goku again. Do you see why that doesn't really work ?

[ABED]

Yes and Goku lets Piccolo live in part to keep himself on his toes. Goku is a Super Saiyan and much stronger than Vegeta by the end. We don't need to see the rematch at this point. You can easily hint that Vegeta and Goku are training for that day. At the end of the Namek arc, Vegeta has completed a journey. He's been broken and surpassed.

You could also end things after the Saiyan arc, just hint that everything went OK on Namek, and hint that Vegeta came back to earth one day and fought Goku again. Do you see why that doesn't really work ?

This isn't remotely like that because their journeys hadn't concluded. By Namek they had, not to mention if you just end things by mentioning things went well on Namek, it's essentially a deus ex machina at that point. The DB's are gone and if you just offhandedly mention "oh there are these other DB's" and don't actually take the audience on that journey, it's a cheap resolution to the story.

At the end of the Freeza arc, Goku has surpassed Vegeta, so there's resolution to that story, the "root of evil" that Kaio hints at has been defeated. Gohan has matured. There's nothing left. The story can and did go new places but it didn't need to to feel conclusive.

[Majin Buu]

Me? Not really. Sorry if it seemed that way, I'm bad at not coming off as a dickbag when I share a strongly-held opinion. But in general, it does frustrate me to see elitism for any particular version. But, on the other hand, I do think it's sensible to acknowledge the difference.

Main reason I quoted dbzfan94 was as a jumping off point to make my points, not to pile on you. Sorry. I could have made that way clearer.

It's no problem, thanks for clarifying.

I generally agree with you. Though dub vs sub can so easily devolve into just "lol the dubs are so bad" (or, outside this forum, "lol nozawa is shitty grandma goku", or alternately "lol why does piccolo sound like wolverine in the ocean dub? lol so bad"), I have a hard time seeing much value in that discussion coming up by itself anymore in 2020.

True. Genuine discussion is good to have, but that's not what's happening in exchanges like that.

Fair. I meant it more generally. Specifically, that part, I was more trying to aim it at people who refuse to watch any version other than Funi's English dubs. People like that should really give the Japanese versions a try, or maybe even Ocean's dubs.

Agreed. You should watch enough of the other version to at least have an informed opinion on why you don't like it. Just an episode or two at minimum.

I mean, you kinda do have to accept them, in that they exist, and every version has its fans. You can dislike any version, but you can't deny the appeal of something that has as many fans as... Well, ANY version of Dragon Ball.

I acknowledge the dub as an alternate version of the show that exists and that many westerners like.

I personally don't accept it as my Dragon Ball though, because it just doesn't appeal to me. I get that it appeals to other people, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it in my personal fandom.

Criticise a version as you wish, ignore it, dislike it, but you can't deny it has some value.
The Faulconer score is beloved by a whole generation of fans. It's not just pure nostalgia; there are some bangers in that score, there's some interesting interweaving of themes, it has a somewhat charming sound from the low-budget synthesisers they had to use, and even though it drastically changed the tone compared to the original, different doesn't always mean bad.

Again, good for you for liking the Faulconer score, but that's simply not my experience . I just don't like it, as either background music or just music in its own right; and I don't believe I should be required to accept it in my personal fandom just because so many other people like it.

I only have to acknowledge that it's a thing that exists that other people like and are free to like if they want. I'm also free to not like it and ignore its existence in my personal fandom.

Ideally, a dub would be an accurate English version of the original Japanese version, but in Dragon Ball, the dubs aren't just translations, they are different, divergent versions. Adaptations, perhaps. You don't have to like every version, but each and every version has its fans, who like it for their own reasons.

For me, the dub (needlessly) diverging is the problem.

And likewise, every version has people who dislike it for their own reasons. Those people are under no obligation to accept any version of the show they don't like in their personal fandom.

[SNIP]

That's a criticism of Chris Sabat as Piccolo Daimao. It would be easy for me to then take that and go "and therefore, because he didn't perform the role in the way I would prefer, he is shit." And many people do take it that far. I have in the past... But it's an immature, shitty way to act (and it's wrong anyway; Sabat is a fine actor, and even though Piccolo Daimao in Funi's dub has a very different feel from the original Japanese, he's a well-performed version of the version of the character Funi presented). And I'm kinda tired of this kind of attitude, y'know?...

Agreed. Criticize an actor's performance all you want, even arguing that they're not a good actor is fair if you can back that up, but don't attack them personally for it.

[Robo4900]

My hill to die on: “Piracy” is the inevitable result of crappy and overpriced home releases and increased internet download speeds. It is a spontaneous thing, not a malicious one. Big corporations need to factor it into their business model instead of pretending there’s a way to make it go away. Also home video is dead.

This is coming from someone who bought the US Dragon Boxes and Blue Bricks when they came out abd still owns them. Yarrgh.

I have mixed feelings on this.

On one hand, I've come to think it's kind of an entitled attitude to decide "i am going to pirate this because i don't think the official release is good enough." I've seen a lot of entitled people online try to justify pirating anime because either Netflix doesn't pick up shows until a season (or half-season) is over, or in a few cases, because they don't think the video encoding on Crunchyroll is good enough, and/or they don't want to pay to remove the ads...

So, by default, I'm sceptical of any kind of "i don't think the official release is up to my standards so i am going to pirate it" attitude, and I think it's an inherently entitled position to take.

However, on the other hand, there are two points against this.

The first is that when you have something like the George Lucas versions of the original Star Wars trilogy, you're getting forced into a fundamentally quite different version of the film you're seeking out. A lot of people are instead watching via fan projects like 4k77/4k83, the Despecialised Editions, or D+77/D+80/D+83... The question is, are the fans being entitled for being angry at Lucasfilm refusing to release the films as originally released, instead releasing versions with fundamentally very different visuals and sound in various places?...

The second is that, ultimately, a lot of people subscribe to the belief that if something isn't good/available enough, they'll pirate it instead. If, to you, Return Of The Jedi is a fundamentally different experience in its special edition compared to the original (which, in fairness, I think it is; the special edition changes alter the tone quite a bit; I'd argue the Jabba's palace sequence is rendered insufferable, whereas in the original edition, it was grimy, creepy, and fun), probably you'll see that as a justifiable "The film I want is not available to buy, so I have no choice but to pirate it."
And that's not a failing of the fans being entitled, that's a failing of the company/companies involved simply refusing to cater to what the fans want to see. Sometimes, there's good reason for this (for the longest time, there was no Donner Cut of Superman II, for instance, so people tried fanedits using footage salvaged from trailers, extended TV edits... Reading the shooting scripts or assembling breakdowns of what it would be like, using notes that have leaked, or whatever else... Another example is that at this point, it's generally assumed that Lucasfilm/Disney are contractually forbidden from releasing the original cuts of Star Wars without George Lucas's permission), but the ultimate result is still the same: The fans aren't catered to, so they will turn to other methods.

I don't think this is exactly any great tragedy; Star Wars still makes piles of money, Dragon Ball Z still makes piles of money... Piracy probably isn't impacting the profit margins all that much, except in a few cases like the 30th Anniversary Sets, where it was specifically targetted at hardcore fans, but it wasn't what the hardcore fans wanted, so they only barely crawled across their minimum production number right at the end of the preorder period.
But, a company not providing you an official option doesn't necessarily mean it's morally okay to pirate something, is the thing. It's more grey than that.

When it comes to a work that is outright impossible to legally obtain (say, Megas XLR, the Aladdin TV show, Project GKR, large portions of MST3K, and before D+ there was all the '90s Marvel cartoons like Spider-Man The Animated Series, etc.), or is impossible to obtain without paying extortionate amounts for second-hand copies (Dogma, for instance), I'd say that's pretty unambiguously morally okay to pirate.
But it's stuff in the middle that's ambiguous.

I don't think Funi would cry over some hardcore fans pirating the Dragon Boxes to get the show in 4:3 without ugly DNR, and I don't think Lucasfilm are particularly crying over the undercurrent of fans preferring pirate versions of the original Star Wars trilogy (and the prequels too, actually; there were some alterations made to the Blu-rays)... But a "victimless crime" is still ultimately a "crime". And ultimately, whether it's okay to pirate Dragon Ball Z or not doesn't have a super clear answer. It's easy to take a moral high ground if you're okay with the 30th sets, just as it's easy to pirate it and draw the line just above your reasoning.

One version of this I see quite commonly in Star Wars is a fairly clean, simple answer:
Buy a current version of it, consider that as an "I've bought it and supported the official release", and go pirate a version that you literally can't buy.

... However, all that said, I do completely agree with you that if Funi did see the mass piracy of Dragon Ball as a serious issue, then it really is their own fault. They have had ample opportunity to release the show in 4:3 without ugly DNR, they didn't have to price the Levels as high as they did, but they've consistently shown that, like Lucasfilm, they don't have an interest in releasing the version the fans want. Funi have their own idea/vision of how the show should look on home media, and they're making sure that's the only version you can obtain legally.

So, I guess I have a hill to die on that piracy isn't an easy, black and white issue.

It's no problem, thanks for clarifying.

Again, good for you for liking the Faulconer score, but that's simply not my experience . I just don't like it, as either background music or just music in its own right; and I don't believe I should be required to accept it in my personal fandom just because so many other people like it.

I only have to acknowledge that it's a thing that exists that other people like and are free to like if they want. I'm also free to not like it and ignore its existence in my personal fandom.

Heh. Well, actually, I don't like the Faulconer score, in the show.
I love it in the GBA "Legacy Of Goku" games, and as I note, I think there are some bangers, and some good interweaving of themes... I can certainly see a lot of the good that Faulconer's fans see... But it's not for me.

But, you don't really even have to go as far as I have -- you can completely not understand why something could be liked by people, but still accept that a lot of people love it, and they have their reasons, just as you have your reasons for liking what you like.

Not trying to say anything about you specifically here, but this is an attitude that I think the fandom at large should take on board.

For me, the dub (needlessly) diverging is the problem.

Agreed. It bugs me too.

Agreed. Criticize an actor's performance all you want, even arguing that they're not a good actor is fair if you can back that up, but don't attack them personally for it.

I don't think it's fair to call someone a bad actor on the basis of one performance, or even several performances in one show (a lot of people assumed many of the actors in the Star Wars prequels were bad, but it was just George Lucas having a weakness when it comes to directing actors, which led to a lot of the criticisms people tend to bring up about those films' performances; most of the cast then went on to do great work in a lot of other things, and many had done great performances before that too), but otherwise, I agree.

[Locust]

Every Japanese (indeed, anyone in the Sino sphere of influence) knows the fairy tale of "Journey to the West" much like every American knows the tall tales of John Henry or Paul Bunyan or every Briton knows of King Arthur.

That's really not been my experience - there's plenty of people that I know that really doesn't know Saiyuki or only has the very barest knowledge of it
Perhaps a generational thing, maybe people older than me and my peers fit closer to what you talk about

Regardless - yes I agree, no one should just read it due to DB, it's a fine story on it's own. I'm a big fan of classical literature, anything from Water Margin, to the Iliad, to Heike Monogatari and everything in between
Classic literature is something I feel is well worth getting into, a lot of foundations of modern stories can be traced back to them - it's just very enriching to see the very beginnings of fiction, in this way

[GhostEmperorX]

(that I once again REALLY need to get around to making its own, whole thread)

Na, a YT video containing this (and split into segments) would not only be much better than massive walls of text each post, but it would gain a huge audience that actually needs to see/hear this stuff. If you’re going to go with the walls of text anyway, you may as well put each segment in spoilers as a favor to anyone else reading it, they do exist for reasons like this.

2) Both the FUNimation dub and moreover its marketing (particularly in its first decade or so) has been the root of almost ALL of the most damaging aspects of Western mainstream Dragon Ball fandom.

Being a symptom of the larger corporate American compulsion to change and Americanize any and all foreign products that weren’t made by either them, Britain, or some other Western country that was prevalent at the time before (aka Adaptations, many of which my favorite anime genre has gone through), they clearly wouldn’t have done it right. It was better suited for the “underground” markets, they’d have done it justice.

C) Things that aren't even present within Dragon Ball itself all that much that most fans simply retroactively project onto it after the fact that are more prominent and more of a thing in other Shonen franchises made after DB had ended. Things like the focus around "friendship" and camaraderie and whatnot. Look all you want in DB, outside of maybe a couple of key moments, this stuff REALLY just isn't fucking there and never has been.

Fans are instead pulling this stuff almost entirely from their love for other Shonen properties like Naruto, One Piece, etc. (that are blatant knockoffs of DB in numerous other areas, but not this one) and retroactively projecting it onto DB: this seems to be partly helped along due to how much creators of those other works talk up their love for and influence by DB, and how much DB is marketed alongside those other properties by Weekly Shonen Jump/Toei/Shueisha and whatnot. People mass lump this stuff in together, even where it obviously doesn't apply across the board.

You pretty much nailed it there, that whole “friendship” or “camaraderie” focus never really existed in literally any version of the DB franchise, never once did that even cross my mind, though I knew it was different in that regard to its knockoff franchises.

4) The contemporary Dragon Ball fanbase, alongside the broader contemporary anime fanbase, along with the broader contemporary "nerd culture" as a broader whole, has long, long, LONG by now had a MASSIVE fucking problem with moving their general sphere of interests past childhood favorite properties, and indeed past works that are made for and sold primarily/exclusively to children.

Most of them are casuals, really not surprising.

[WittyUsername]

The second to last (I think?) episode of Super did place an unusual emphasis on the idea that Goku fights for his friends, but I can’t argue against the notion that such a thing was out of place.

[Yuli Ban]

Every Japanese (indeed, anyone in the Sino sphere of influence) knows the fairy tale of "Journey to the West" much like every American knows the tall tales of John Henry or Paul Bunyan or every Briton knows of King Arthur.

That's really not been my experience - there's plenty of people that I know that really doesn't know Saiyuki or only has the very barest knowledge of it
Perhaps a generational thing, maybe people older than me and my peers fit closer to what you talk about

That still counts. That's the exact same situation with other folk tales. Every American has heard of Paul Bunyan, but maybe 1 in a 100 you meet will know there are multiple stories he's in or what exactly the beats of those stories are about. Similarly with King Arthur and so on. People know 1001 Arabian Nights, but I'm fairly sure the vast majority can't name more than a tiny handful of characters (made popular by Disney) or settings or stories or even what the frame story was about.