The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

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Re: The Hills we die on.and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Locust » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:24 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:22 pm
Locust wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:38 pm
Yuli Ban wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:51 pm
Every Japanese (indeed, anyone in the Sino sphere of influence) knows the fairy tale of "Journey to the West" much like every American knows the tall tales of John Henry or Paul Bunyan or every Briton knows of King Arthur.
That's really not been my experience - there's plenty of people that I know that really doesn't know Saiyuki or only has the very barest knowledge of it
Perhaps a generational thing, maybe people older than me and my peers fit closer to what you talk about
That still counts. That's the exact same situation with other folk tales. Every American has heard of Paul Bunyan, but maybe 1 in a 100 you meet will know there are multiple stories he's in or what exactly the beats of those stories are about. Similarly with King Arthur and so on. People know 1001 Arabian Nights, but I'm fairly sure the vast majority can't name more than a tiny handful of characters (made popular by Disney) or settings or stories or even what the frame story was about.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Psajdak » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:32 pm

Fuck you guys. :shock:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Yuli Ban » Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:49 pm

No problem.

Also....

A hill I'm willing to die on is one that I only discovered within the past few years: "Dragon Ball doesn't need to be the Japanese Marvel/DC"


I really mean this tonally; I'm fine with there being spinoffs following other characters (like we've seen with Jaco and Yamcha). It's the tone issue that I feel people misunderstand Dragon Ball the most. First of all, a lot of people don't seem to understand that Dragon Ball is fundamentally a silly children's kung fu fantasy comic that has a very fleeting relationship to the real world. And then when it comes to how battles play out, people want them to be a mix of snarky meta comedy and hypermasculine flexing with token badass moments (just think of how many people are upset that Vegeta didn't get a new transformation). And the ideas on how to "fix" Dragon Ball invariably involve elements that are blatantly pulled from things like the MCU or DCU that would feel badly tacked on in the DB universe... providing you know how the DB universe works in the first place.

Dragon Ball's not perfect, obviously. Far from it. But this obsession with "fixing it" using such totally foreign elements is evident of a fanbase that has no clue of the very series of which it's a fan of (or, as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, of a fanbase for a series that's split into two fundamentally different series thanks to a bizarro dub that way, way too many people have unearned nostalgia-driven purism for). It's like someone from Saudi Arabia wanting to "fix" Harry Potter by taking away the magic and replacing it with divine Islamic prayers, making sure that Harry and Ron are never humiliated by Hermione, and making sure that Harry himself is a much more pious and generic warrior-poet hero, or someone from America wanting to add 10x more explosions and sex jokes.

I say I only discovered it in the past few years because for a while I was of that mindset myself.

Honestly, if you want a Dragon Ball that has such features, make your own! No one's stopping you, and it's not like Dragon Ball has a monopoly on these things and that any and every work with its tropes has to be a silly and relatively shallow gag comedy story with bits of drama here and there. But you can't change the original's universe on a dime like that.

I may be biased in that opinion though.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm

DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:23 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm
DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
I dont think those are mutually exclusive.
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:52 pm
It's ill-fitting for me. Dragon Ball is not a bedtime story. And "laid-back old man" is not how I would describe Yanami's narrator. To me he sounds like the kind of uncle that shows up to the birthday party with loads of fruit punch soda and stuffs himself with pizza and ice cream, or takes you out on his boat at the lake in the summer and goes skinny dipping or something.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:27 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:23 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm
DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
I dont think those are mutually exclusive.
They are mutually exclusive. If the story has an infinite middle, by definition there is no ending.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:29 pm

I meant that if its successful enough it can be both evergreen (As in enduring success) AND have an actual ending. The term evergreen franchise was used as early as Kai.
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:52 pm
It's ill-fitting for me. Dragon Ball is not a bedtime story. And "laid-back old man" is not how I would describe Yanami's narrator. To me he sounds like the kind of uncle that shows up to the birthday party with loads of fruit punch soda and stuffs himself with pizza and ice cream, or takes you out on his boat at the lake in the summer and goes skinny dipping or something.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:34 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:29 pm
I meant that if its successful enough it can be both evergreen (As in enduring success) AND have an actual ending. The term evergreen franchise was used as early as Kai.
I don't know if it's the right term but I've heard it used in relation to franchises that go on and on without ending. Regardless of the term used, a franchise that goes on forever is not a good thing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:36 pm

On that I do agree. I think Evergreen means rather a franchise that is constantly being rediscovered and enjoyed by new people.
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:52 pm
It's ill-fitting for me. Dragon Ball is not a bedtime story. And "laid-back old man" is not how I would describe Yanami's narrator. To me he sounds like the kind of uncle that shows up to the birthday party with loads of fruit punch soda and stuffs himself with pizza and ice cream, or takes you out on his boat at the lake in the summer and goes skinny dipping or something.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:40 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:34 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:29 pm
I meant that if its successful enough it can be both evergreen (As in enduring success) AND have an actual ending. The term evergreen franchise was used as early as Kai.
I don't know if it's the right term but I've heard it used in relation to franchises that go on and on without ending. Regardless of the term used, a franchise that goes on forever is not a good thing.
This I agree with. As much as I love Dragonball, I was pretty content with how things wraped up in GT despite that being a mixed bag.

As much as I am enjoying Super, it does not seem to have an over arching goal in mind. Then again, the original series didn't either.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:05 am

There's a lack of rebooting and variety in the storylines. I actually enjoy the premises of Super Dragon Ball Heroes but they're given zero room to breathe and develop as their own status quos, all because the production committee members are too cowardly to commit to breaking from Toriyama. It's similarly why they keep relying on Toriyama for designs and stories, similarly with Oda Ei'ichirou on One Piece films and using Satou Masayuki as the animation character designer and chief animation supervisor.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:16 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:15 pm
The second to last episode of Super did place an unusual emphasis on the idea that Goku fights for his friends, but I can’t argue against the notion that such a thing was out of place.
That's because it was out of place, and something you'd see in Fairy tail. As far as I know, it was a last minute change by the writer so that his children would "learn" the value of friendship. When I read that interview my brain shut off for a few minutes.
ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm
DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
I completely agree. I don't have an issue with new stories every now and then, but the idea of DB continuing indefinitely, with or without Toriyama, is something I'm completely against. Anything that continues past its natural ending usually has nothing worth adding to the overall story, and just ends up feeling tacked on, as we're seeing with a good number of these modern DB stories.
GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:40 pm
As much as I am enjoying Super, it does not seem to have an over arching goal in mind. Then again, the original series didn't either.
The issue with Super isn't a lack of an end goal as much as its lack of creativity, and constant willingness to cover ground already covered in the original manga. RF for example brought nothing new to the franchise, or the constant call backs to classic moments, or the "character development" that's just a repeat of previous development. There are gems like BOG that does bring something new to the table, but that's one example in a sea of stories that play things too safe.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:34 am

I guess anyone who for some reason bealives that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan when that couldn't be further from the truth

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:53 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:34 am
I guess anyone who for some reason bealives that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan when that couldn't be further from the truth
I never knew anyone thought that, as I always believed the debate was between Kid Buu and Super Buu without his fusions.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:56 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:53 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:34 am
I guess anyone who for some reason bealives that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan when that couldn't be further from the truth
I never knew anyone thought that, as I always believed the debate was between Kid Buu and Super Buu without his fusions.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:23 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm
DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
The DB franchise continuing is not the same thing as the story continuing. Many will say that the DB story ended back in 95/96/97 and that it's only the "franchise" that is continuing now.

Regardless, just because a story might end doesn't mean a franchise has to. Not that every franchise is worth continuing, but many franchises possess the potential for more stories after one ends.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:30 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:23 am
Many franchises possess the potential for more stories after one ends.
I agree, as the BOG movie is a great example of DB's post manga potential, but I don't think the potential is there for continuous stories like back in its manga days.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:16 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:23 am
ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:07 pm
DB should not be an evergreen franchise. Stories require endings.
The DB franchise continuing is not the same thing as the story continuing. Many will say that the DB story ended back in 95/96/97 and that it's only the "franchise" that is continuing now.

Regardless, just because a story might end doesn't mean a franchise has to. Not that every franchise is worth continuing, but many franchises possess the potential for more stories after one ends.
Care to expand on this point and give examples?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:56 am

DB can have multiple endings.

There is the original ending of the manga with Goku flying away with Uub.
There is the ending of the original anime run with Goku dying / flying of with Shenron.
Now we are in a semi-canon continuity with different version for movie, manga and anime, Toriyama's quitting and final movie fe could be seen as another ending.
Probably the story will resume later on though ...

DB is timeless, i have accepting this to be a franchise rather than one definitive story.
If there is one definitive story that makes the most sense as intended by the author, it's the original manga.
What we are getting now, i only see as an addition to the original work.

But there are other interpretations possible.
If you want to pick and ending, you can always pick one that works for you.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 am

I accept it as well, I just don't agree with it.

The issue isn't one of interpretation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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