The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:34 am

ABED wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:04 am

The issue isn't one of interpretation.


Maybe not strictly, we have three different versions of the same continuity.
The story has become diverged, even if Toriyama is still looking along over his shoulder.

If Toriyama would still be making the manga, and the anime would be a faithful adaptation of that manga, there would still be one clear version of the story. This no longer longer the case.

If you can't accept or agree the story has "no one be all ending ..."
You can still say 'for me the canon story ends with Goku flying away with Uub'. Because only till that point there was still one story (merely accepting the classic manga-anime differences that go along with the adaptation for a certain work, including some filler).

What we are getting now can still be appreciated or not appreciated as you choose, but this can be placed in its context once realizing it's an addition to the original story.

Once realizing this, this does not have to be a hill to die on.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am

Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:56 am

There is the original ending of the manga with Goku flying away with Uub.
There is the ending of the original anime run with Goku dying / flying of with Shenron.
Now we are in a semi-canon continuity with different version for movie, manga and anime, Toriyama's quitting and final movie could be seen as another ending.

DB is timeless, i have accepting this to be a franchise rather than one definitive story. If there is one definitive story that makes the most sense as intended by the author, it's the original manga.
If Toriyama's final modern story takes place before EOZ, can that really be considered an additional ending ? as he's just leading into one that currently exists.

I think DB can be divided into 2 parts: DB as one definitive story, which is the original manga (and its 2 anime adaptions if you prefer that over reading) & DB as a franchise, which includes everything from the movies, anime continuations, etc.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:53 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:54 am
Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:56 am

There is the original ending of the manga with Goku flying away with Uub.
There is the ending of the original anime run with Goku dying / flying of with Shenron.
Now we are in a semi-canon continuity with different version for movie, manga and anime, Toriyama's quitting and final movie could be seen as another ending.

DB is timeless, i have accepting this to be a franchise rather than one definitive story. If there is one definitive story that makes the most sense as intended by the author, it's the original manga.
If Toriyama's final modern story takes place before EOZ, can that really be considered an additional ending ? as he's just leading into one that currently exists.

I think DB can be divided into 2 parts: DB as one definitive story, which is the original manga (and its 2 anime adaptions if you prefer that over reading) & DB as a franchise, which includes everything from the movies, anime continuations, etc.


You are right in the sense there only would exist an "additional different ending" if the end of Super came after EoZ.
I had gone by the assumption Super with Toriyama overseeing stuff goes beyond EoZ.
I meant 'additional' in terms of what it literary means, something that is attached to the original story.

"Hardcore canon" ends with the original manga and its animated adaptations.
What comes after it, i don't see as black nor white, although you could call it more 'franchise' than 'story'.
But it's not utterly completely non-canonical either, as the original author is still involved and approving things.
From the franchises perspective, Super is 100 % canonical. From Toriyamas perspective, it's not completely.

I interpret Super to be more canonical than GT, in the sense, if Toriyama would have continued the manga himself, chances are high there would be more elements in it from Super than what we got in GT. Toriyama basically agrees with what we are getting now being the official continuation(s). It's no longer completely his story, but he still agrees. There is even a possibility Toriyama will just quit at e certain point,, and the story simply continues without him. So the door is still open for some interpretation where exactly you draw the line where the story ends.

If Toriyama writes an ending for DB that goes beyond EoZ, one could still see it as an additional ending for the story as intended by the original author. It's not conclusive on a franchise level though, as we have already had different endings in the past and there will probably still be another additional ending(s) in the future after Toriyama.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:23 am

Stories and I will include franchises as stories are the basis of franchises need to end, bottom line, regardless of divergent threads, timelines, multiverses, etc. Endings give stories a shape and meaning.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:39 am

Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:53 am
But it's not utterly completely non-canonical either, as the original author is still involved and approving things.
From the franchises perspective, Super is 100 % canonical. From Toriyamas perspective, it's not completely.
I know it's "canon", but for me, the line between what's the "story" and what's the "franchise" is drawn between the original manga and everything else, regardless of how much involvement the author may have in said post manga material.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:41 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:39 am
Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:53 am
But it's not utterly completely non-canonical either, as the original author is still involved and approving things.
From the franchises perspective, Super is 100 % canonical. From Toriyamas perspective, it's not completely.
I know it's "canon", but for me, the line between what's the "story" and what's the "franchise" is drawn between the original manga and everything else, regardless of how much involvement the author may have in said post manga material.

Fair enough.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Ringworm128 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:03 pm

Isn't this pretty much just the "unpopular Dragon Ball opinions" thread?
If you have to write a small thesis every time you respond to a post you're not an intellectual, you're just bad at making your point.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:22 am

No it isnt. Much of the stances spoused here are very popular yet passionate.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 am

Chris Sabat is a total assclown who has no respect for the integrity of the series by adding meme jokes, pop culture references, references to the original Z dub, and generally ruining the dub of Dragon Ball (ex. Super) with what he does. He should be fired as ADR director for this show and have Colleen Clinkenbeard replace him as she has said herself she sometimes gets too close to the original intent that it doesn't make sense.

Also, Kikuchi is better than Faulconer solely for the fact that it is how the show was originally intended to be seen. I grew up with the Saban dub that changed to Funimation and heard the Faulconer team's score. I love it and think it's great, but as it is not what was meant to be heard for the show, Kikuchi all the way.

I'm kind of a purist.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:44 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 am
Also, Kikuchi is better than Faulconer solely for the fact that it is how the show was originally intended to be seen. I grew up with the Saban dub that changed to Funimation and heard the Faulconer team's score. I love it and think it's great, but as it is not what was meant to be heard for the show, Kikuchi all the way.

I'm kind of a purist.
I'll add my own note on top of that. I myself actually prefer the Kikuchi replacement score for Kai. Even if it is admittedly kind of sloppily cut and pasted over, to me, it still fit the visuals more than Yamamoto's ever did. Yamamoto's music was good for the video games, but trying to retro-actively fit his style onto the anime just never won me over. Still though, if you prefer a different flavor of DB music to me, then I wont be one to try to stop you from enjoying it.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:01 am

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 am
Chris Sabat is a total assclown who has no respect for the integrity of the series by adding meme jokes, pop culture references, references to the original Z dub, and generally ruining the dub of Dragon Ball (ex. Super) with what he does. He should be fired as ADR director for this show and have Colleen Clinkenbeard replace him as she has said herself she sometimes gets too close to the original intent that it doesn't make sense.
I think you're being far too hard on the guy; realistically, I think his pushing for adding memes, references, jokes, and such are a genuine effort on his part to appeal to the existing fanbase. Naturally, we in the more hardcore fanbase find these changes annoying, and personally I don't think the casual fans particularly care either way, so I think it would be better to take a more faithful approach, but I think it is worth acknowledging that his changes come from the right place. Sabat does legitimately care about the show, about the fans, etc. It's just that we in the hardcore fandom don't particularly appreciate his way of expressing it in the show itself.

It's also worth noting that, from what little we've heard from the people working on Funi's home releases, the guys at Funi seriously do think the ugly "remastering" process they use on the Season BDs and 30th anniversary sets do improve the visuals. Naturally, I'd say they're uninformed, their tastes run counter to everything the fans actually want, and I wish they'd put that aside and have the show restored by a group who respect the integrity of the original production... But there's no malice here, just an honest effort that many (myself in particular) would argue was aimed at the wrong thing.

But, back onto Chris Sabat and the Funi dubs...
As I've noted before, it's fine to criticise his work on this dub; voicing that you don't like all these changes is fine, but I think calling him "a total assclown" who is "generally ruining the dub of Dragon Ball (ex. Super) with what he does" is just taking it too far. Someone doing work on something that you're not a fan of doesn't make them "an assclown", and I think it is major hyperbole to say he's "ruining the dub"; his push for the additions of these jokes certainly hurt the accuracy, and certainly in my opinion, it makes the dub worse, yes. But I think it would be amiss to call the modern Funi dubs anything less than acceptable. The soul of the show, the essence of the characters, the story itself, the spirit, etc. is generally represented very well in the modern material. That's not to say it's beyond criticism -- far from it, I still think Sean Schemmel's super-goofy take on Kaio robs the character of needed gravitas in places, I'm not a fan of Sabat's Piccolo Daimao, and the script changes still annoy me, that's all perfectly reasonable criticism... But I don't think an honest criticism of anything has any place for insulting the people behind it. No one sets out to make a bad piece of work; Schemmel voiced Kaio in a way that sounded like Don Brown back in the day, and has continued to do approximately that voice, with the attitude that he's an entertainer, he plays into the comedic side, and Chris Sabat played Piccolo Daimao as being like Piccolo, but darker, lower, more gutteral, etc... People try their best at any creative effort, which is good! And generally, people who try their best will constantly be trying to do better, so provided people don't just default to "lol gen fukunaga, chris sabat, and sean schemmel are an unholy trinity of evil monsters who ruined dragon ball forever", there's always the possibility that people like Chris Sabat, who do seriously love the show and care about the fans, will take the criticisms on board, and try a slightly different approach next time. But if all they see is "you ruined my favourite show! i hate you!", they're just gonna write it off as internet haters/trolls who aren't worth listening to.

Plus, it's just mean to insult people.

Just my two cents on that.
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 am
Also, Kikuchi is better than Faulconer solely for the fact that it is how the show was originally intended to be seen. I grew up with the Saban dub that changed to Funimation and heard the Faulconer team's score. I love it and think it's great, but as it is not what was meant to be heard for the show, Kikuchi all the way.
Hard agree.

I'm a bit of a fanboy for a few of the replacement scores -- I love Peter Berring's one for the BLT dub, I love Ron Wasserman's one for the Saban dub, I love the admittedly-a-litte-repetitive-in-places Anitunes score on the Westwood dub, and while I have mixed feelings on Faulconer's score in the show, there are some legitimately great tracks, and the version of Faulconer's score that appears on the Legacy Of Goku games is god-tier...

But, the original > all else
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 am
I'm kind of a purist.
lol I couldn't tell. ;)
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:44 am
I'll add my own note on top of that. I myself actually prefer the Kikuchi replacement score for Kai. Even if it is admittedly kind of sloppily cut and pasted over, to me, it still fit the visuals more than Yamamoto's ever did. Yamamoto's music was good for the video games, but trying to retro-actively fit his style onto the anime just never won me over. Still though, if you prefer a different flavor of DB music to me, then I wont be one to try to stop you from enjoying it.
Fair.

Personally, I can't enjoy the Yamamoto score, just because I know that every piece is fundamentally ripped off from something else without permission... The work is tainted to a degree that I just can't enjoy it.

But, even if I could put that aside, yeah, Kikuchi's work is ultimately THE Dragon Ball score. It sucks that the time constraints on the rescoring made Kikuchi Kai a bit of a mess, but in fairness, the outcome is at least okay. It doesn't stand up to the original Z score, but it's generally fine.
Much like Kai in Japanese, in general, it's nice to have this faster-paced version of the portions of the story that suffer the most from pacing issues, but in general, the presentation just isn't as good as original Z.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:12 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:01 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:44 am
I'll add my own note on top of that. I myself actually prefer the Kikuchi replacement score for Kai. Even if it is admittedly kind of sloppily cut and pasted over, to me, it still fit the visuals more than Yamamoto's ever did. Yamamoto's music was good for the video games, but trying to retro-actively fit his style onto the anime just never won me over. Still though, if you prefer a different flavor of DB music to me, then I wont be one to try to stop you from enjoying it.
Fair.

Personally, I can't enjoy the Yamamoto score, just because I know that every piece is fundamentally ripped off from something else without permission... The work is tainted to a degree that I just can't enjoy it.

But, even if I could put that aside, yeah, Kikuchi's work is ultimately THE Dragon Ball score. It sucks that the time constraints on the rescoring made Kikuchi Kai a bit of a mess, but in fairness, the outcome is at least okay. It doesn't stand up to the original Z score, but it's generally fine.
Much like Kai in Japanese, in general, it's nice to have this faster-paced version of the portions of the story that suffer the most from pacing issues, but in general, the presentation just isn't as good as original Z.
How I see it, that's the main trade off. Kai gives you a more easily digestable, accessible, and better paced version of the Z story, with a more faithful dub for English viewers, but at times it really lacks the polish and shine of the original's presentation. In the case of Kai TFC, I can't make myself watch it, a better dub can only go so far if the episodes themselves are a strain to the eye. I'd rather watch Kai 1 - 98 then pick up at Z 200 if I really wanted to rewatch the rest.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Sadala Elite » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:19 pm

1. There's nothing wrong with liking any kids media as an adult, but anyone who primarily/only likes kids media as an adult clearly has psychological issues. This has little-to-nothing to do with the media itself but with the people in general btw. On the other hand, most adult-aimed media isn't particularly "deep" or generally good either, Target audience has nothing to do with quality.

2. Toriyama IS overall a bad writer, and way too many people in the fandom refuse to accept this fact and have this "Toriyama can do no wrong" or "Toriyama's intentions are always best" mentality.

3. The dub vs sub debate is extremely stupid. The only things that matter is rather or not the acting is good and whether or not the script is faithful to the source material. And btw, way too many people overexaggerate about the changes Funimation made in the 90s.

4. Dragonball is Goku's story, but way too many people in the fandom use that fact to handwave\deflect criticism of the franchise's relatively poor handling of the rest of the cast.

5. Yuya Takahashi, Natoshi Shida and the main animators of the Buu saga are easily the best artists/animators to ever work on the franichse and their work TOWERS above everyone else, its pure contrarianism to disagree. Modern Yamamoro sucks (he was good before GT), same with Modern Toriyama (who was great before the 2000s). Shintani is great though.

6. Most people are incapable of objectively viewing any media, so they end up either projecting false-depth and themes into a series they like, or they are the type to project sociopolitical themes/messages in places where none exist, or they end up dismissing something they hate (or like ironically) has having absolutely no substance or merit at all.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:37 pm

What exactly constitutes viewing media "objectively"?
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:37 pm

I’m gonna be honest, this really is starting to feel like the unpopular opinions thread. I know some of the things people have posted here aren’t exactly unpopular opinions, but this thread is basically starting to follow the same format as that other thread.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Sadala Elite » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:37 pm
What exactly constitutes viewing media "objectively"?
Seeing it as it actually is and not what you want/think it ought to be. Basically, to view something without projecting.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:21 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:37 pm
What exactly constitutes viewing media "objectively"?
Seeing it as it actually is and not what you want/think it ought to be. Basically, to view something without projecting.
But what a piece of media is is so often up for interpretation.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Dr. Casey » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:36 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:19 pm
3. The dub vs sub debate is extremely stupid. The only things that matter is rather or not the acting is good and whether or not the script is faithful to the source material. And btw, way too many people overexaggerate about the changes Funimation made in the 90s.
The FUNi dubs (at least the originals from the 90s and the early to middle 2000s; based on brief clips from the Kai dub, the acting seems significantly improved so maybe the scripts are as well) are pretty bad by the latter metric, though. Way back in the day with the Dragon Ball DVDs, I tried turning on subtitles on a whim while watching the dub, and was really surprised at how the majority of dialogue in the Dragon Ball dub had nothing to do with the original text. And that was the dub that was - at the time - touted as being the 'good' one. (I didn't like the voice acting in the Dragon Ball dubs at any point and I had a basic idea of how badly butchered the Z dub was before I started watching it, so I already had a love-hate relationship with both dubs, but I did assume prior to late 2003 or so that the translation for the original anime was pretty accurate.)
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:09 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:19 pm
2. Toriyama IS overall a bad writer, and way too many people in the fandom refuse to accept this fact and have this "Toriyama can do no wrong" or "Toriyama's intentions are always best" mentality.

4. Dragonball is Goku's story, but way too many people in the fandom use that fact to handwave\deflect criticism of the franchise's relatively poor handling of the rest of the cast.
I agree with this now, but this couldn't be further from the truth during his work on the original manga. There's a reason it inspired countless other manga and became the gold standard for as long as it has.

I completely agree with this. Toriyama clearly has trouble keeping characters relevant past their first or second main appearance, with the exception of Vegeta.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:37 pm
I know some of the things people have posted here aren’t exactly unpopular opinions, but this thread is basically starting to follow the same format as that other thread.
It's the same format, but it's not about opinions that are unpopular, rather ones you completely believe in and won't change your mind about. I do agree that I've seen some in that other topic though.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:17 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:01 pm
ABED wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:37 pm
What exactly constitutes viewing media "objectively"?
Seeing it as it actually is and not what you want/think it ought to be. Basically, to view something without projecting.
I'd contest that it's impossible to "objectively" view ANY piece of media. "Seeing it as it actually is" is a great path to take if all you're looking to do is a plot summary, but an actual critical view of something, an actual assessment of the work itself?

A couple of years ago, Jim Sterling did a great "100% objective review" of Final Fantasy XIII, which illustrates very nicely why the entire idea of an "objective assessment" is mornic shit, and while that was specifically about a video game, the points he makes with the video apply to all media.
You can observe a lot of facts, but any opinon, any critical view, any actual assessment or view of any kind is subjective, so not allowed.
Could you say that Piccolo arc is a brutal tone change that changes all the rules of Dragon Ball forever, and Piccolo himself is a masterful mix of funny and terrifying that serves the weird balance of tone?... No, because all of that is subjective; you'd have to say that the Piccolo arc is an arc in Dragon Ball, and Piccolo is a character in the story whose goals run counter to the protagonists, making him an antagonist... Which tells you nothing of any interest.

Now, this said, it's entirely reasonable to say you're tired of peoples' assessments of Dragon Ball being clouded by nostalgia for this or that version they happened to grow up on, and that's a common complaint in this fandom, but this is an entirely different thing from wanting an "objective" viewpoint.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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