The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

[ABED]

Then explain how. All you are doing is asserting and pointing to one damn article is not an argument. It's appeal to authority. And if you won't bother to explain anything or expand on it or offer your own insight but instead just ask condescending questions, the logical inference is you don't know what you're talking about at all.

Is "the Earth is round" just a subjective opinion? Is "the Sun is bright" just a subjective opinion?

This is such an on its face asinine comment. The Earth's shape is independent of any observer. Quality is not a fact independent of the observer. Now, you wanna do this again? How about you actually contribute to the discussion and make a case, don't just assert.

The fact that beauty and art standards throughout world culture and all of history are at least half-universal points to the existence of objective quality.

Of course quality can be objective, anyone who says it isn't is just trying to cover up the fact that their taste in some things are...not great. Just because you can't take a measuring stick to something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Make your case. Okay, we can't measure quality, so what are the metrics of quality? And don't link to a damn article. Actually explain your point.

[Sadala Elite]

Then explain how. All you are doing is asserting and pointing to one damn article is not an argument. It's appeal to authority. And if you won't bother to explain anything or expand on it or offer your own insight but instead just ask condescending questions, the logical inference is you don't know what you're talking about at all.

Is "the Earth is round" just a subjective opinion? Is "the Sun is bright" just a subjective opinion?

This is such an on its face asinine comment. The Earth's shape is independent of any observer. Quality is not a fact independent of the observer. Now, you wanna do this again? How about you actually contribute to the discussion and make a case, don't just assert.

The fact that beauty and art standards throughout world culture and all of history are at least half-universal points to the existence of objective quality.

Of course quality can be objective, anyone who says it isn't is just trying to cover up the fact that their taste in some things are...not great. Just because you can't take a measuring stick to something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Make your case. Okay, we can't measure quality, so what are the metrics of quality? And don't link to a damn article. Actually explain your point.

I have made a case, you are just being in denial.

And no, quality IS something that exist independent of the person who views it. The fact that universal beauty/art tastes exist to some degree AT ALL points to the existence of objective beauty.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Then this whole talk was pointless and has been dominating the thread for no reason. LOVELY

[ABED]

Well it does prove there are hills some are willing to die on, so there's that reason.

[Sadala Elite]

Here's a hill I'll die on:

Power levels don't matter, never mattered, never will matter, and anyone who's under any illusion that there's any sensible, consistent, coherent way to quantify the power levels of any given character at any given point, is completely missing the point of the show.

I'll grant you that a lot of people have a lot of fun messing around with figuring out in-depth systems for how "power levels" work, and of course, your free time is your free time, spend it as you wish. But such people must recognise that this is entirely their own fun, entirely their own headcanon view of the story, and not anything that ever was, is, or could be part of the story itself in any actually serious manner.

Power levels were something for Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz (and, to a lesser extent, a few of the Freeza forces) to inflate their heads about, and use to act generally confused and shocked when they see how strong the protagonists are. Vegeta and Nappa outright throw their scouters away at one point, because they know power levels are bullshit, and give no real indication to how strong a fighter is.
And even if there wasn't a big point made of the fact that power levels are bullshit, aside from maybe one or two mentions Freeza makes while bragging to Goku during their fight, power levels are never mentioned at any point in the original storyline aside from the Saiyan arc, plus a bit of the early/mid Freeza arc.

The "power levels are BS" argument itself is yet another BS Western fan interpretation with zero support from Toriyama himself. Its just another false theme many fans project onto the series. The only one "missing the point of the show" is you.

https://youtu.be/SuBR-K9siL8

"Power levels were something for Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz (and, to a lesser extent, a few of the Freeza forces) to inflate their heads about, and use to act generally confused and shocked when they see how strong the protagonists are. Vegeta and Nappa outright throw their scouters away at one point, because they know power levels are bullshit, and give no real indication to how strong a fighter is."

This is clearly false. The only time Vegeta & Nappa in the Saiyan arc dismiss their scouters is when they see Goku power up because they couldn't believe that a low-class Saiyan could have a PL that high (which actually validates power levels & scouters because Goku would later prove in his fight with Nappa that he actually was as strong as their scouters said he was). They never acted that way with the other Z fighters, and Goku was the only hero at the time with a PL higher than Nappa (who easily dominated all the other Z-crew alone), which validates PLs. More often than not, scouters readings are proven right rather than wrong in the series. And the only reason Vegeta stopped using scouters since Namek was because he learn to naturally sense Ki, not because of any "PLs are BS" narrative.


There's not a single instance the series were a guy with a lower PL beats a guy with a higher one in a 1v1 (without any handicaps). The fact that Dragonball is a franchise on which since day 1 raw power is shown to be more important than anything else (no matter how much many Western fan deny this), where character strength is mainly shown by beating up other characters, where nearly every major conflict is solved by simply getter more powerful, proves that Power-levels and scaling do matter in the franchise.

Whenever Toriyama, Toei, Jump and Toyotaro are ever given questions about power levels and scaling in interviews, they always give a straight, unironic answer as if they were a fundamental part of the narrative/franchise. They never say anything asinine like "PLs don't actually matter" or "its all about skill and teamwork" or "everyone is equal". And just because there's inconsistencies with PLs doesn't mean they don't matter.

[Robo4900]

The "power levels are BS" argument itself is yet another BS Western fan interpretation with zero support from Toriyama himself. Its just another false theme many fans project onto the series. The only one "missing the point of the show" is you.

ok

https://youtu.be/SuBR-K9siL8

I am not watching a 25-minute video for the sake of an internet argument. Especially not one with a title like that.

This is clearly false. The only time Vegeta & Nappa in the Saiyan arc dismiss their scouters is when they see Goku power up because they couldn't believe that a low-class Saiyan could have a PL that high

Been a while since I watched early Z, but to my recollection, they dismiss their scouters because Goku varies his power level, so the readings aren't useful for an overall assessment. The level varies depending on how much power he's using at a given moment, therefore the scouters were basically useless.

The fact that Dragonball is a franchise on which since day 1 raw power is shown to be more important than anything else (no matter how much many Western fan deny this), where character strength is mainly shown by beating up other characters, where nearly every major conflict is solved by simply getter more powerful, proves that Power-levels and scaling do matter in the franchise.

Whenever Toriyama, Toei, Jump and Toyotaro are ever given questions about power levels and scaling in interviews, they always give a straight, unironic answer as if they were a fundamental part of the narrative/franchise. They never say anything asinine like "PLs don't actually matter" or "its all about skill and teamwork" or "everyone is equal". And just because there's inconsistencies with PLs doesn't mean they don't matter.

There's a lot of other bits of your post I haven't quoted in here, but I'm just gonna use this as a jumping off point for a more general response to what you're saying...

It's a Dragon Ball trope that the guy who punches the hardest will usually win, and if the good guy can't punch as hard as the bad guy, the way they come to win is by training so they can punch the bad guy harder. I didn't dispute that, and I don't dispute that.
The early run was better off in this regard -- Jackie Chun vs Goku was an even match decided by technique and psychology rather than fighting power, and similarly, Kuririn vs Bacterian was a match decided by how Kuririn addressed Bacterian's gimmick, rather than by who was stronger at the outset.

The thing is, "Power levels" were just a very blunt way of Toriyama introducing a new way for people to be agog at "omg this dude is stronger than this dude!!"
There's no sensible logic behind what the power levels are outside of a couple of very specific moments, and throughout their brief presence in the franchise (once again, they show up first in the early Saiyan arc, then aside from one or two movies and specials, were never mentioned again in the original run after Goku fights Freeza), there's a big deal made of the fact that Goku and the other heavy hitters vary up their power level from moment to moment. Because assigning "this guy is exactly this strong" as a consistent mathematical thing is something that only works in a video game; in a TV show or a comic, no one is ever going to keep track of that except for the fans.

When Toriyama was writing the handful of chapters where power levels are actually mentioned, I don't doubt that he at least put a few seconds' throught into one or two power levels here or there; "I said Vegeta's 20,000 here, so if I make Goku max out at 8,000 here when he's flexing on them, and he uses a "Times 3" Kaioken, then he's a little stronger than Vegeta at max, so that makes some sense for an even match", that kind of thing, but Toriyama wasn't designing a video game, he was writing a manga. He'd have a rough idea of where things were going, "Goku's gonna fight Vegeta as the big bad, so I want them to have a pretty even fight, but Goku will win in the end", but that would be as far as it would go. Which is fine. He would choose numbers that sounded good, and on the most surface of brief thoughts on it make some amount of sense, but that's as far as it goes.

The thing is, fans who obsess over power levels tend to build a consistent logic that could probably fill a book the size of the Lord Of The Rings trilogy, detailing exactly whose power level was what during every moment of the post-Raditz manga and anime (because, naturally, this type of fan doesn't care about pre-Raditz. )... There's multipliers figured out for each transformation, how much each character's level raised in each training session... But the thing is, all of it is purely headcanon. The narrative logic leads, for instance, Goku to have a losing fight with Freeza, which the others help out with, then Goku gets angry, breaks, and unlocks his hidden power, which makes the tide of battle turn easily. So... Did Toriyama, or anyone else outside the fans watching, break down what their power levels were, and figure out the exact "power level multiplier" that Super Saiyan needs to be in order for this to turn?... Or did Toriyama just write "And then Goku unlocked his hidden power, which made him strong enough to beat Freeza."?

... Look, by all means, enjoy developing your in-depth power level theory, but don't pretend it was ever something serious; it's all just you having fun with your headcanon. WHICH IS FINE. We all come up with our fan theories and headcanons, power levels are just one that's got very, very ubiquitous, and a lot of people seem to take as gospel for some reason.

And naturally, because so many fans are so passionate about "wait, what was Goku's power level when he fought Broly?" and other such things, the guys at Toei, Shueisha, etc. give some kind of answer that they've maybe thought about for at least a few seconds, just to tide the fans over and throw them a bone. Because of course they do; when your fans are passionate enough to have come up with in-depth fan theories like this, you throw them a bone when they ask you questions that tie into it. You be nice to your fans...

IDK. I think both my last post, and this one, has probably ended up being a lot more yum-yucking than I intended. It just kinda pisses me off when pages of certain threads get taken over with these power level debates (at one point, a few pages of this very thread got taken over by it, IIRC), when it's just a fan theory that is only subscribed to be some fans, but which those fans will treat as gospel, and even occasionally get kinda hostile when people ask that the power level debates calm down a little.

And personally, it kinda pisses me off how people talk about "In the Freeza arc, Goku's power level was [number]", when they literally make a point in the series of the fact that the power levels vary; you can't get an "overall power level" of someone like Goku. That's the point. It's like people are ignoring events in the series, to suit their fan theories, which is just nonsensical to me. Logic like this is one reason why I ended up giving up on MasakoX's "What if" videos; I enjoyed many of the scenarios (not all of them were my cup of tea, though ), but a lot of the time, he would bring power levels into it, and try to build it around these arbitrary numbers. Like, IIRC his video about "What if Goku went Super Saiyan after Kuririn died?", he decided "Well, Super Saiyan is a [number] power multiplier, and we can determine his power level was [number], so he is exactly this strong." rather than just playing with the scenario as a narrative. IDK.
Again, a lot of people enjoy that, and I'm sure he had fun putting it together (and he seems like a really nice guy), my point isn't that that's necessarily bad or wrong, it's just an approach I personally hate, and it comes from this power levels fan theory that I've always found silly, and it's always kinda annoyed me how seriously people take it.

By all means, have your fun with power levels, but understand that, unless you're one of the people who is really invested in this stuff (which is not nearly a majority of fans), it's just "A fan theory that some people take way too seriously", which can get kinda annoying when it takes over a thread for a few pages. And some people (or, at least, me) find power level discussions to be the absolute most boring possible thing to discuss about [whatever the most recent piece of Dragon Ball media has ever been at any given moment].

Just my two cents.

[Sadala Elite]

The "power levels are BS" argument itself is yet another BS Western fan interpretation with zero support from Toriyama himself. Its just another false theme many fans project onto the series. The only one "missing the point of the show" is you.

ok

https://youtu.be/SuBR-K9siL8

I am not watching a 25-minute video for the sake of an internet argument. Especially not one with a title like that.

This is clearly false. The only time Vegeta & Nappa in the Saiyan arc dismiss their scouters is when they see Goku power up because they couldn't believe that a low-class Saiyan could have a PL that high

Been a while since I watched early Z, but to my recollection, they dismiss their scouters because Goku varies his power level, so the readings aren't useful for an overall assessment. The level varies depending on how much power he's using at a given moment, therefore the scouters were basically useless.

The fact that Dragonball is a franchise on which since day 1 raw power is shown to be more important than anything else (no matter how much many Western fan deny this), where character strength is mainly shown by beating up other characters, where nearly every major conflict is solved by simply getter more powerful, proves that Power-levels and scaling do matter in the franchise.

Whenever Toriyama, Toei, Jump and Toyotaro are ever given questions about power levels and scaling in interviews, they always give a straight, unironic answer as if they were a fundamental part of the narrative/franchise. They never say anything asinine like "PLs don't actually matter" or "its all about skill and teamwork" or "everyone is equal". And just because there's inconsistencies with PLs doesn't mean they don't matter.

There's a lot of other bits of your post I haven't quoted in here, but I'm just gonna use this as a jumping off point for a more general response to what you're saying...

It's a Dragon Ball trope that the guy who punches the hardest will usually win, and if the good guy can't punch as hard as the bad guy, the way they come to win is by training so they can punch the bad guy harder. I didn't dispute that, and I don't dispute that.
The early run was better off in this regard -- Jackie Chun vs Goku was an even match decided by technique and psychology rather than fighting power, and similarly, Kuririn vs Bacterian was a match decided by how Kuririn addressed Bacterian's gimmick, rather than by who was stronger at the outset.

The thing is, "Power levels" were just a very blunt way of Toriyama introducing a new way for people to be agog at "omg this dude is stronger than this dude!!"
There's no sensible logic behind what the power levels are outside of a couple of very specific moments, and throughout their brief presence in the franchise (once again, they show up first in the early Saiyan arc, then aside from one or two movies and specials, were never mentioned again in the original run after Goku fights Freeza), there's a big deal made of the fact that Goku and the other heavy hitters vary up their power level from moment to moment. Because assigning "this guy is exactly this strong" as a consistent mathematical thing is something that only works in a video game; in a TV show or a comic, no one is ever going to keep track of that except for the fans.

When Toriyama was writing the handful of chapters where power levels are actually mentioned, I don't doubt that he at least put a few seconds' throught into one or two power levels here or there; "I said Vegeta's 20,000 here, so if I make Goku max out at 8,000 here when he's flexing on them, and he uses a "Times 3" Kaioken, then he's a little stronger than Vegeta at max, so that makes some sense for an even match", that kind of thing, but Toriyama wasn't designing a video game, he was writing a manga. He'd have a rough idea of where things were going, "Goku's gonna fight Vegeta as the big bad, so I want them to have a pretty even fight, but Goku will win in the end", but that would be as far as it would go. Which is fine. He would choose numbers that sounded good, and on the most surface of brief thoughts on it make some amount of sense, but that's as far as it goes.

The thing is, fans who obsess over power levels tend to build a consistent logic that could probably fill a book the size of the Lord Of The Rings trilogy, detailing exactly whose power level was what during every moment of the post-Raditz manga and anime (because, naturally, this type of fan doesn't care about pre-Raditz. )... There's multipliers figured out for each transformation, how much each character's level raised in each training session... But the thing is, all of it is purely headcanon. The narrative logic leads, for instance, Goku to have a losing fight with Freeza, which the others help out with, then Goku gets angry, breaks, and unlocks his hidden power, which makes the tide of battle turn easily. So... Did Toriyama, or anyone else outside the fans watching, break down what their power levels were, and figure out the exact "power level multiplier" that Super Saiyan needs to be in order for this to turn?... Or did Toriyama just write "And then Goku unlocked his hidden power, which made him strong enough to beat Freeza."?

... Look, by all means, enjoy developing your in-depth power level theory, but don't pretend it was ever something serious; it's all just you having fun with your headcanon. WHICH IS FINE. We all come up with our fan theories and headcanons, power levels are just one that's got very, very ubiquitous, and a lot of people seem to take as gospel for some reason.

And naturally, because so many fans are so passionate about "wait, what was Goku's power level when he fought Broly?" and other such things, the guys at Toei, Shueisha, etc. give some kind of answer that they've maybe thought about for at least a few seconds, just to tide the fans over and throw them a bone. Because of course they do; when your fans are passionate enough to have come up with in-depth fan theories like this, you throw them a bone when they ask you questions that tie into it. You be nice to your fans...

IDK. I think both my last post, and this one, has probably ended up being a lot more yum-yucking than I intended. It just kinda pisses me off when pages of certain threads get taken over with these power level debates (at one point, a few pages of this very thread got taken over by it, IIRC), when it's just a fan theory that is only subscribed to be some fans, but which those fans will treat as gospel, and even occasionally get kinda hostile when people ask that the power level debates calm down a little.
By all means, have your fun with power levels, but understand that, unless you're one of the people who is really invested in this stuff (which is not nearly a majority of fans), it's just "A fan theory that some people take way too seriously", which can get kinda annoying when it takes over a thread for a few pages.

Just my two cents.

You sound like you're in deep denial about the franchise lol. Especially with your refusal to watch that video.

- Vegeta & Nappa flat-out stated in the Saiyan arc that its because they can't believe Goku (a low class Saiyan) was a powerful as their scouters say he was (they were never too sceptical of the PLs of the other heroes even when they powered up), not because of PLs constantly changing, that's just something you made up.

- Jackie Chun vs Goku, if anything, shows exactly how worthless skill and strategy really is the franchise, since literally all of Chun's techniques and tactics failed against the clearly less skilled, less experienced Kid Goku in their fight. Krillin vs Bacterian boiled down to mostly dumb luck rather than smarts.

- "When Toriyama was writing the handful of chapters where power levels are actually mentioned, I don't doubt that he at least put a few seconds' throught into one or two power levels here or there; "I said Vegeta's 20,000 here, so if I make Goku max out at 8,000 here when he's flexing on them, and he uses a "Times 3" Kaioken, then he's a little stronger than Vegeta at max, so that makes some sense for an even match", that kind of thing,"

This is exactly what the fans do with PLs lmao. You just contradicted yourself lmao.

- "Did Toriyama, or anyone else outside the fans watching, break down what their power levels were, and figure out the exact "power level multiplier" that Super Saiyan needs to be in order for this to turn?..."

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews

- "It's a Dragon Ball trope that the guy who punches the hardest will usually win, and if the good guy can't punch as hard as the bad guy, the way they come to win is by training so they can punch the bad guy harder. I didn't dispute that, and I don't dispute that"

And yet you fail to see how PLs are the natural consequence of this lol.

[Locust]

Oh here's a hill I'll die on -

Western - and I specify because it really is mainly westerners doing this I'm sad to say - should have more respect for the DB fanartists who's work they claim to enjoy

I see so much reposting of art with no credits (including from artists that specifically state in their profiles "please do not repost"), and so much scanning of doujinshi
Most doujin artists, we'd really rather our work doesn't get scanned, for various reasons
Within the Japanese fandom, this is inherently known

However, I'm noticing the trend of putting disclaimers, in English, in doujinshi, requesting that work not be scanned and distributed
This is very much a new phenomenon and I dislike that it's come to be needed
I don't think most people that scan doujinshi are bad, I think they just are not aware of the issues - they might be very good about crediting, but the nature of the internet is that those scans will be distributed, and often credit to the artist is lost - which is shitty

[Robo4900]

You sound like you're in deep denial about the franchise lol.

Or maybe you're projecting in an attempt to discredit someone who disagrees with you.

Especially with your refusal to watch that video.

Either you can make your points well enuogh that you don't need the video for the sake of this no-stakes internet debate, or you have no point to make. Clearly you have the confidence to argue your points on your own, so just do that.

I'm not going to waste my time watching 25 minutes of some guy ranting about a view you happen to share with him, because -- unlike the fun of a debate -- I would not find that entertaining, so it would be a bad use of my time.

- Vegeta & Nappa flat-out stated in the Saiyan arc that its because they can't believe Goku (a low class Saiyan) was a powerful as their scouters say he was (they were never too sceptical of the PLs of the other heroes even when they powered up), not because of PLs constantly changing, that's just something you made up.

Again, I haven't seen early Z in years, but I distinctly remember Vegeta saying to Nappa "Earthlings can change their power levels; the scouters are useless, remember." And Nappa says something like "Oh right, Raditz made that mistake."

Could just be me remembering a dub error, I guess, but I seem to recall it being in Kai too?

- Jackie Chun vs Goku, if anything, shows exactly how worthless skill and strategy really is the franchise, since literally all of Chun's techniques and tactics failed against the clearly less skilled, less experienced Kid Goku in their fight. Krillin vs Bacterian boiled down to mostly dumb luck rather than smarts.

Or maybe you haven't watched OG DB in as long as I've not watched early Z.

All of Jackie Chun's moves worked, at least for a brief time, Goku just adapted quickly, and tried his own things, which Jackie countered in turn. Eventually, the fight became a hand-to-hand struggle (the dialogue states they've been fighting for hours by the end), and it only concludes when they have that one final kick in the air, with Jackie strategising that his longer legs will allow him to get a better kick in on Goku, tiring him out more, giving Jackie the ultimate victory.
The reason it's a good fight isn't because the guy with a "higher power level" wins, it's a good fight because it's really even, they try a lot of things, it goes back and forth, and right up to the very end, you don't know who's going to win. Would it tell a better story if Toriyama decided to agree with the boring plot-hole idea that "surely, the more experienced martial artist could overpower goku with his techniques", or does it tell a better story that Goku is enough of a martial arts genius (even at this early stage in his life) that he's able to adapt to pretty much anything you throw at him?
At best, you've pointed out a minor plot hole. And as anyone who's not the Nostalgia Critic or CinemaSins knows -- plot holes do not matter.

Kuririn vs Bacterian boiled down to Kuririn realising (thanks to Goku) that he doesn't have a nose, thus his ill effects from Bacterian are placebo, so he was able to then get over how disgusting Bacterian is, then win with his immense strength. If he hadn't figured that out, Bacterian would have won, despite Kuririn being the clearly-stronger fighter.
In other words, Bacterian got into his head with psychology, reputation, etc., and Kuririn overcame it by seeing through it. It's a weird, unconventional technique Bacterian used, but it's a technique, and a strategy, nonetheless, and one that Kuririn had to figure out how to defeat. It wasn't just a matter of "guy who punches hardest wins", it was Kuririn having to beat his opponent's strategy.

... If you don't think strategy and skill were serious factors in the 21st Tenkaichi fights, either you didn't watch it, or you're lying to yourself to nullify a contradiction in another belief of yours.

This is exactly what the fans do with PLs lmao. You just contradicted yourself lmao.

You're taking what I said out of context, and missing the point entirely.

My point was that for the very, VERY brief period in the manga where power levels were involved AT ALL, Toriyama probably gave it at least the bare minimum thought of "Do these random numbers I'm pulling out of my ass make sense?... Yes?... Okay, now onto things that actually matter, rather than giving stupid plot holes the two seconds of thought they're worth..."

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews

Almost certainly any figures he gave in interviews would've been pulled out of his ass at the moment he was asked.

Much like that "well, if Goku is a 6, Beerus is an 8" power comparison logic he pulled out of his ass after BOG released; loads of fans jumped on it, but IIRC not even Super took it seriously, with how it's progressed so far. He only said it to give some sort of off-the-top-of-his-head answer to a question in an interview, that's all.
Again, the point is to throw your fans a bone. They want to hear about power levels? Give them something to chew on. Either they'll enjoy it, or they'll reject it; either way, you give them some additional fodder for their favourite pet theory.

- "It's a Dragon Ball trope that the guy who punches the hardest will usually win, and if the good guy can't punch as hard as the bad guy, the way they come to win is by training so they can punch the bad guy harder. I didn't dispute that, and I don't dispute that"

And yet you fail to see how PLs are the natural consequence of this lol.

Yes, I do fail to see it, because what I was referring to was "Who could win in a fight if these two fought right now?", which is an aspect everyone is constantly aware of in a story like Dragon Ball without the need for seeing an impenetrable RPG system rulebook's worth of numbers and analysis.

Again, did Toriyama consult a spreadsheet of power levels when writing his stories to see who could fight who and how the fight would turn out? No, he just wrote the damn story, and went with whatever story choices told the best narrative.

Did Toriyama write Dragon Ball with a thorough theory of exactly how power levels work, which multipliers and increases go where, etc.? No, he just wrote the damn story. He doesn't care if Goku's "power level" is a million, a billion, or a thousand; he just cares that the villain he's facing in act 1 is stronger than he is, so he can spend act 2 getting stronger, then fight him in act 3 and win.

Again, you can have fun with this fan theory, but don't pretend it was ever anything more than that... And that's perfectly okay. Again, I've probably yucked your yum in a way I didn't intend; you enjoy comparing and analysing power levels, and more power to you for that... Just, don't involve people in it who aren't interested, and don't be under the illusion that it's a fundamental part of the franchise that everyone has to deal with. Because it's not. It's your way of looking at the narrative in a granular way that most people just don't care about. And that's fine. Again, you enjoy it like anyone else enjoys their hobbies and headcanons and fan theories, etc...

[Sadala Elite]

You sound like you're in deep denial about the franchise lol.

Or maybe you're projecting in an attempt to discredit someone who disagrees with you.

You are the one projecting lol. You believe only what you want to believe and refuse to see any evidence otherwise

Especially with your refusal to watch that video.

Either you can make your points well enuogh that you don't need the video for the sake of this no-stakes internet debate, or you have no point to make. Clearly you have the confidence to argue your points on your own, so just do that.

All the points in that same video are the same ones I've been using. If you are so confident in your BS views then you wouldn't have anu issues watching the video in order to debunk it.

I'm not going to waste my time watching 25 minutes of some guy ranting about a view you happen to share with him, because -- unlike the fun of a debate -- I would not find that entertaining, so it would be a bad use of my time.

Its only because you can't debunk it, admit it lol

- Vegeta & Nappa flat-out stated in the Saiyan arc that its because they can't believe Goku (a low class Saiyan) was a powerful as their scouters say he was (they were never too sceptical of the PLs of the other heroes even when they powered up), not because of PLs constantly changing, that's just something you made up.

Again, I haven't seen early Z in years, but I distinctly remember Vegeta saying to Nappa "Earthlings can change their power levels; the scouters are useless, remember." And Nappa says something like "Oh right, Raditz made that mistake."

Could just be me remembering a dub error, I guess, but I seem to recall it being in Kai too?

Vegeta and Nappa never said a thing about their PLs constantly changing even in the dub. You are just believing want you want at this point

- Jackie Chun vs Goku, if anything, shows exactly how worthless skill and strategy really is the franchise, since literally all of Chun's techniques and tactics failed against the clearly less skilled, less experienced Kid Goku in their fight. Krillin vs Bacterian boiled down to mostly dumb luck rather than smarts.

Or maybe you haven't watched OG DB in as long as I've not watched early Z.

Except all of Jackie Chun's moves worked, Goku just adapted quickly, and tried his own things, which Jackie countered in turn. Eventually, the fight became a hand-to-hand struggle (the dialogue states they've been fighting for hours by the end), and it only concludes when they have that one final kick in the air, with Jackie strategising that his longer legs will allow him to get a better kick in on Goku, tiring him out more, giving Jackie the ultimate victory.



Kuririn vs Bacterian boiled down to Kuririn realising (thanks to Goku) that he doesn't have a nose, thus his ill effects from Bacterian are placebo, so he was able to then get over how disgusting Bacterian is, then win with his immense strength. If he hadn't figured that out, Bacterian would have won, despite Kuririn being the clearly-stronger fighter.

The fact that all of Chun's techniques did no lasting damage to Goku nor any effect on the direction of the fight (making it glorified padding), had Goku quickly adapt to them (making then useless)and how we never saw the majority of them ever again (and how they would never work on any major characters) basically proves my point about how useless and irrelevant skill and techniques are in DB lmao. An hours long hand-2-hand brawl says nothing about skill either lol

And the Krillin vs Bacterian is a poor example of strategy mattering because that was basically a gag fight lmao. The fact that Krillin has no nose means that if it was written seriously then Krillin would have just knocked him out instantly

... If you don't think strategy and skill were serious factors in the 21st Tenkaichi fights, either you didn't watch it, or you're lying to yourself to support a view that contradicts the reality.

I challenge you to name one major fight in all of Dragonball that was actually won with skill being the deciding factor not only in the outcome, but in the entire direction of the fight. You can't lol, because every major battle in DB boils down to either raw power, desperate last minute teamwork or someone being handicapped. Dragonball is not Hunter x Hunter

This is exactly what the fans do with PLs lmao. You just contradicted yourself lmao.

You're taking what I said out of context, and missing the point entirely.

Prove it

My point was that for the very, VERY brief period in the manga where power levels were involved AT ALL, Toriyama probably gave it at least the bare minimum thought of "Do these random numbers I'm pulling out of my ass make sense?... Yes?... Okay, now onto things that actually matter, rather than giving stupid plot holes the two seconds of thought they're worth..."

Prove it. How do you know wants running through Toriyama's head and are not just projecting yourself onto him?

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews

Almost certainly any figures he gave in interviews would've been pulled out of his ass at the moment he was asked.

He said the exact same things in multiple interviews across many years. He wouldn't be that consistent if he had just pulled shot out of his ass just for an interview. Proving again how you are in denial

- "It's a Dragon Ball trope that the guy who punches the hardest will usually win, and if the good guy can't punch as hard as the bad guy, the way they come to win is by training so they can punch the bad guy harder. I didn't dispute that, and I don't dispute that"

And yet you fail to see how PLs are the natural consequence of this lol.

Yes, I do.

Because, and pay attention here, power levels aren't "Who could win in a fight if these two fought right now?", it's a system of quantifying an absolute value of how strong every character is. Which is ridiculous.

Thats exactly what PLs are and how both Toriyama and other official sources use them. And yes, they generally are a "who would win if these 2 fight" thing, because no one in the series has ever won a serious 1v1 fight against someone with a higher PL than them.

Again, did Toriyama consult a spreadsheet of power levels when writing his stories to see who could fight who and how the fight would turn out?
Yes, he and Shonen Jump actually did. Look it up
No, he just wrote the damn story, and went with whatever story choices told the best narrative.

Keep telling yourself that lol

Did Toriyama write Dragon Ball with a thorough theory of exactly how power levels work, which multipliers and increases go where, etc.? No, he just wrote the damn story.

Again, you can have fun with this fan theory, but don't pretend it was ever anything more than that.

And you can live in denial all you want and ignore the actual words and intentions of Toriyama and other creators

[Robo4900]

This is getting tediously long-winded, so I'm spoilering this so as to not subject those who don't care to it.

Spoiler:

All the points in that same video are the same ones I've been using. If you are so confident in your BS views then you wouldn't have anu issues watching the video in order to debunk it.

If it's the same points you've been making, then I have no need to watch the video; I'm sure you've laid out the points to the best of your ability, in a far more concise form. Besides, I'm debating with you, I'm not debating with some trumped-up YouTube influencer.

Its only because you can't debunk it, admit it lol

To be frank...
A. I don't really care enough to watch the video
B. Your attitude is rubbing me the wrong way, so I care even less than I would otherwise.
C. In general, my viewing habits tend not to be "i'm gonna watch this thing I disagree with so i can tear it apart and DEBUNK it with FACTS AND LOGIC!!"; I prefer to watch stuff I'll actually enjoy the experience of watching. If I'm going to "debunk" anything, I'm going to do it in a casual conversation with someone, not from the other side of a video I can't have a chat with.

Vegeta and Nappa never said a thing about their PLs constantly changing even in the dub. You are just believing want you want at this point

This was bugging me, so I took the liberty of having the episode checked (subbed); it's about 19 minutes into episode 22, if you want to check for yourself...

VEGETA: Nappa, take off your Scouter.
NAPPA: What?
VEGETA: These guys can alter their battle powers in response to the battle. We can't rely on these values anymore.
NAPPA: Now that you mention it, that's right. That idiotic wimp Raditz got done in because he got overconfident in his Scouter's figures, after all.

So, according to you, I'm projecting, believing only what I want to believe, refusing to see evidence, and believing what I want, yet you so confidently denied that this critical point ever happened after I mentioned it multiple times. Well, now that I've laid out the evidence, you can't deny it anymore.

The fact that all of Chun's techniques did no lasting damage to Goku nor any effect on the direction of the fight (making it glorified padding),

I'm sorry, but this is straight-up bullshit. A major part of that fight is the fact that the two of them are tiring out over the course of it; by the end, neither can unleash a single energy attack because they're so utterly worn out. The fight then becomes a pure hand-to-hand affair. The tournament announcer then states the match has been going for four hours when we come back after the eyecatches; the two warriors are utterly tired out. Jackie Chun briefly thinks to himself, and tries to figure out how to beat him before Goku ends up dying from exhaustion. Jackie outright states in his inner monologue that, had it not been for his legs being longer than Goku, he would not have won the match; and he figures out to use this fact before they go in for the kick. In other words, after their hours of fighting evenly-matched, Roshi used his skill and strategy to figure out the one tiny advantage he could take in the end, which Goku failed to anticipate... He won the match using his head, not his fists. In that last moment before he and Goku do the flying kick at each-other, he is literally analysing ths situation, figuring out what his best chance to win in this last moment is, and he went for a strategy that won him the match.

... I don't see how you can possibly say this wasn't strategy/skill winning, when it's plainly in the text of the series (as well as being plainly in the subtext before he states it) that this is what happened.

how we never saw the majority of them ever again (and how they would never work on any major characters)

I mean, we only see the Hellzone Grenade once, we only see the Kaioken a handful of times in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs (and only used by Goku), we only see the Dragon Fist twice (once in Z movie 13, once in a late GT episode), we only see Goku himself go Oozaru two or three times, Gohan once or twice, Vegeta once, then Goku and Vegeta each go one further time in GT, and the Mafuba is only used about three times, Broly's "Legendary Super Saiyan" form was only seen once before Kale was introduced in Super, Piccolo's giant form, Tenshinhan's multi-arm form...
I could go on, but to save myself further typing -- a lot of the most iconic Dragon Ball moves only show up a few times. "We don't see them again" doesn't mean they didn't matter.

had Goku quickly adapt to them (making then useless)

I don't get this one...
First, yes, he adapted to it... What, were you expecting Chun to pull out the drunken boxing and instantly win the match because Goku can't handle it? Do you want the fights to just have Chun try one thing, then win, or do you want to see the two of them trying all kinds of things, each fighter adapting and responding, making it a fun back-and-forth of stuff?... Or do you want to just see a couple of people punch each-other until one falls to the ground?

Furthermore, "quickly" is relative. Goku spends at least half an episode dealing with each thing Jackie Chun tries against him before he learns to deal with it properly.

And the Krillin vs Bacterian is a poor example of strategy mattering because that was basically a gag fight lmao. The fact that Krillin has no nose means that if it was written seriously then Krillin would have just knocked him out instantly

"it's a joke, therefore it doesn't count" is what I'm reading here, and frankly, I find that attitude ridiculous. It was all built up to a joke, but that doesn't mean there wasn't strategy happening.
Yes, if it was "written seriously", it would have been over quickly... But if Dragon Ball in general was written more seriously, it wouldn't be nearly as fun a series, and wouldn't have nearly the impact it's ended up having. The Piccolo and Goku driving episode is one of their best, and a lot of the Piccolo Daimao arc's brilliance lies in its weird balance of humour and darkness, creating its unique tone.

Here's the key thing, though; recognise that you're saying "if this was written differently, the outcome would have been a bit different", and you'll recognise that you're talking nonsense.

I challenge you to name one major fight in all of Dragonball that was actually won with skill being the deciding factor not only in the outcome, but in the entire direction of the fight.

Namu vs Ranfan (21st Tenkaichi)
Goku vs Jackie Chun (21st Tenkaichi)
Goku vs The Masked Fighter (Baba arc)
Yamucha vs The Invisible Man (Baba arc)
Kuririn vs Chiaotzu (22nd Tenkaichi)
Arguably, Kuririn vs Goku (22nd Tenkaichi); Goku was ultimately the victor, and was clearly stronger, but the actual direction of the fight was heavily about strategy (with stuff like Kuririn trying to grab Goku's tail, as he learned from Goku vs Masked Man), but I won't die on this hill.
Goku vs Tenshinhan (22nd Tenkaichi)
Tenshinhan vs Drum and Piccolo Daimao (arguable, but the deciding factor in this fight is Tenshinhan strategising about getting in close to Piccolo to use the Mafuba)
Goku vs Piccolo Daimao (Piccolo Daimao arc)
Piccolo Jr. vs God (23rd Tenkaichi)
Goku vs Piccolo Jr. (23rd Tenkaichi)
Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz (Saiyan arc)
Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta vs Ghurd/Guldo (Ginyu Force)
Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn vs Captain Ginyu
Probably one or two fights in the Garlic Jr. arc, but I'll be honest, I haven't seen it in years, and I barely remember any of it.
There's a moment in the Androids arc I'd like to highlight, where Vegeta fights #19, then challenges #20 to fight him next. Piccolo explains that Vegeta probably would have lost against #20, but his strategic mindgames led #20 to retreat, allowing Vegeta to take a senzu and recover, so he can go chase him for the next fight. Not exactly a fight win, but a major game of strategy that Vegeta played that was central to the plot.

And then about here, things fall apart. Pretty much every fight in the Androids/Cell and Boo arcs is decided just by "who is strongest boy who can punch hardest." On the plus side, those are the last two arcs in the original manga run (no, I can't be bothered to discuss Super or GT), so overall, the show has a good track record, provided you don't skip past everything before Raditz shows up, which contains some of the best fighting in the show, as well as some of the best overall storytelling, and some great use of characters that wouldn't be employed for most of the "Z" era due to how bloated the cast became.

Dragonball is not Hunter x Hunter

I wouldn't know. Never seen it. I hear it's good.

This is exactly what the fans do with PLs lmao. You just contradicted yourself lmao.

You're taking what I said out of context, and missing the point entirely.

Prove it

You're interrupting my post after I've already made it. Calm down and let me finish before you interject!

Prove it. How do you know wants running through Toriyama's head and are not just projecting yourself onto him?

I don't have to prove shit. Writers don't generally come up with full, consistent RPG-style numbers for all their characters; Toriyama would be quite unique if he did, so the burden of proof is on you.

If you happen to have something on you that proves Toriyama had fully-fleshed-out power level charts to hand when he was writing his stories, I'll be very impressed, and concede "victory" in this debate.

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews
[...]
He said the exact same things in multiple interviews across many years. He wouldn't be that consistent if he had just pulled shot out of his ass just for an interview. Proving again how you are in denial

I've enver seen any such interviews. Care to link some?

Thats exactly what PLs are and how both Toriyama and other official sources use them. And yes, they generally are a "who would win if these 2 fight" thing, because no one in the series has ever won a serious 1v1 fight against someone with a higher PL than them.

Power levels are people taking the vague sense of which characters are roughly on what level, and turning it into an in-depth spreadsheet of RPG stats. It's quite different from "At this point, the story seems to suggest Piccolo is about as strong as Freeza. Then Freeza powers up and trounces him, then Goku shows up and goes Super Saiyan, and is stronger."

And ultimately, power levels are based on a concept in the show that the characters in the show ultimately find to be useless (see above, with Vegeta telling Nappa to put down his Scouter).

Again, my point here was always that it bothers me that people get so into this and insist on it being a critical part of the story, when the truth is that, while there's a vague sense of who's stronger than who, quantifying it as numbers is just a road to madness.

--

A further hill to die on: Dragon Ball's absolute peak/golden age was the entire run from the 21st Tenkaichi up until Namek ended (Red Ribbon takes a little while to get going, admittedly, but 21st Tenkaichi is gold IMO. Pilaf is very much like a "pilot season". Then Androids/Cell and Boo are very much the dropoff at the end of the long run). Therefore, when most western fans skip to Raditz, they're missing out on the vast majority of the franchise's golden years.

There's a lot of points to be made about it generally being a bad idea to skip half a story anyway, but to me, this is the true tragedy of people overlooking DB; most of the best stories came before Raditz. I'm not angry at people for skipping DB, I'm sad that people are missing out on the best stuff.
It'd be like if you found out your friend, for some reason, always removes half the patty (as well as most of the bacon, where applicable, and they don't get onions, or many of the other great additions like sauces) in every burger they eat... I mean, sure, you're still eating what's probably a solid burger, but you're missing out on a huge chunk of the main attraction, and that's just sad.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

This is getting tediously long-winded, so I'm spoilering this so as to not subject those who don't care to it.

Spoiler:

All the points in that same video are the same ones I've been using. If you are so confident in your BS views then you wouldn't have anu issues watching the video in order to debunk it.

If it's the same points you've been making, then I have no need to watch the video; I'm sure you've laid out the points to the best of your ability, in a far more concise form. Besides, I'm debating with you, I'm not debating with some trumped-up YouTube influencer.

Its only because you can't debunk it, admit it lol

To be frank...
A. I don't really care enough to watch the video
B. Your attitude is rubbing me the wrong way, so I care even less than I would otherwise.
C. In general, my viewing habits tend not to be "i'm gonna watch this thing I disagree with so i can tear it apart and DEBUNK it with FACTS AND LOGIC!!"; I prefer to watch stuff I'll actually enjoy the experience of watching. If I'm going to "debunk" anything, I'm going to do it in a casual conversation with someone, not from the other side of a video I can't have a chat with.

Vegeta and Nappa never said a thing about their PLs constantly changing even in the dub. You are just believing want you want at this point

This was bugging me, so I took the liberty of having the episode checked (subbed); it's about 19 minutes into episode 22, if you want to check for yourself...

VEGETA: Nappa, take off your Scouter.
NAPPA: What?
VEGETA: These guys can alter their battle powers in response to the battle. We can't rely on these values anymore.
NAPPA: Now that you mention it, that's right. That idiotic wimp Raditz got done in because he got overconfident in his Scouter's figures, after all.

So, according to you, I'm projecting, believing only what I want to believe, refusing to see evidence, and believing what I want, yet you so confidently denied that this critical point ever happened after I mentioned it multiple times. Well, now that I've laid out the evidence, you can't deny it anymore.

The fact that all of Chun's techniques did no lasting damage to Goku nor any effect on the direction of the fight (making it glorified padding),

I'm sorry, but this is straight-up bullshit. A major part of that fight is the fact that the two of them are tiring out over the course of it; by the end, neither can unleash a single energy attack because they're so utterly worn out. The fight then becomes a pure hand-to-hand affair. The tournament announcer then states the match has been going for four hours when we come back after the eyecatches; the two warriors are utterly tired out. Jackie Chun briefly thinks to himself, and tries to figure out how to beat him before Goku ends up dying from exhaustion. Jackie outright states in his inner monologue that, had it not been for his legs being longer than Goku, he would not have won the match; and he figures out to use this fact before they go in for the kick. In other words, after their hours of fighting evenly-matched, Roshi used his skill and strategy to figure out the one tiny advantage he could take in the end, which Goku failed to anticipate... He won the match using his head, not his fists. In that last moment before he and Goku do the flying kick at each-other, he is literally analysing ths situation, figuring out what his best chance to win in this last moment is, and he went for a strategy that won him the match.

... I don't see how you can possibly say this wasn't strategy/skill winning, when it's plainly in the text of the series (as well as being plainly in the subtext before he states it) that this is what happened.

how we never saw the majority of them ever again (and how they would never work on any major characters)

I mean, we only see the Hellzone Grenade once, we only see the Kaioken a handful of times in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs (and only used by Goku), we only see the Dragon Fist twice (once in Z movie 13, once in a late GT episode), we only see Goku himself go Oozaru two or three times, Gohan once or twice, Vegeta once, then Goku and Vegeta each go one further time in GT, and the Mafuba is only used about three times, Broly's "Legendary Super Saiyan" form was only seen once before Kale was introduced in Super, Piccolo's giant form, Tenshinhan's multi-arm form...
I could go on, but to save myself further typing -- a lot of the most iconic Dragon Ball moves only show up a few times. "We don't see them again" doesn't mean they didn't matter.

had Goku quickly adapt to them (making then useless)

I don't get this one...
First, yes, he adapted to it... What, were you expecting Chun to pull out the drunken boxing and instantly win the match because Goku can't handle it? Do you want the fights to just have Chun try one thing, then win, or do you want to see the two of them trying all kinds of things, each fighter adapting and responding, making it a fun back-and-forth of stuff?... Or do you want to just see a couple of people punch each-other until one falls to the ground?

Furthermore, "quickly" is relative. Goku spends at least half an episode dealing with each thing Jackie Chun tries against him before he learns to deal with it properly.

And the Krillin vs Bacterian is a poor example of strategy mattering because that was basically a gag fight lmao. The fact that Krillin has no nose means that if it was written seriously then Krillin would have just knocked him out instantly

"it's a joke, therefore it doesn't count" is what I'm reading here, and frankly, I find that attitude ridiculous. It was all built up to a joke, but that doesn't mean there wasn't strategy happening.
Yes, if it was "written seriously", it would have been over quickly... But if Dragon Ball in general was written more seriously, it wouldn't be nearly as fun a series, and wouldn't have nearly the impact it's ended up having. The Piccolo and Goku driving episode is one of their best, and a lot of the Piccolo Daimao arc's brilliance lies in its weird balance of humour and darkness, creating its unique tone.

Here's the key thing, though; recognise that you're saying "if this was written differently, the outcome would have been a bit different", and you'll recognise that you're talking nonsense.

I challenge you to name one major fight in all of Dragonball that was actually won with skill being the deciding factor not only in the outcome, but in the entire direction of the fight.

Namu vs Ranfan (21st Tenkaichi)
Goku vs Jackie Chun (21st Tenkaichi)
Goku vs The Masked Fighter (Baba arc)
Yamucha vs The Invisible Man (Baba arc)
Kuririn vs Chiaotzu (22nd Tenkaichi)
Arguably, Kuririn vs Goku (22nd Tenkaichi); Goku was ultimately the victor, and was clearly stronger, but the actual direction of the fight was heavily about strategy (with stuff like Kuririn trying to grab Goku's tail, as he learned from Goku vs Masked Man), but I won't die on this hill.
Goku vs Tenshinhan (22nd Tenkaichi)
Tenshinhan vs Drum and Piccolo Daimao (arguable, but the deciding factor in this fight is Tenshinhan strategising about getting in close to Piccolo to use the Mafuba)
Goku vs Piccolo Daimao (Piccolo Daimao arc)
Piccolo Jr. vs God (23rd Tenkaichi)
Goku vs Piccolo Jr. (23rd Tenkaichi)
Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz (Saiyan arc)
Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta vs Ghurd/Guldo (Ginyu Force)
Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn vs Captain Ginyu
Probably one or two fights in the Garlic Jr. arc, but I'll be honest, I haven't seen it in years, and I barely remember any of it.
There's a moment in the Androids arc I'd like to highlight, where Vegeta fights #19, then challenges #20 to fight him next. Piccolo explains that Vegeta probably would have lost against #20, but his strategic mindgames led #20 to retreat, allowing Vegeta to take a senzu and recover, so he can go chase him for the next fight. Not exactly a fight win, but a major game of strategy that Vegeta played that was central to the plot.

And then about here, things fall apart. Pretty much every fight in the Androids/Cell and Boo arcs is decided just by "who is strongest boy who can punch hardest." On the plus side, those are the last two arcs in the original manga run (no, I can't be bothered to discuss Super or GT), so overall, the show has a good track record, provided you don't skip past everything before Raditz shows up, which contains some of the best fighting in the show, as well as some of the best overall storytelling, and some great use of characters that wouldn't be employed for most of the "Z" era due to how bloated the cast became.

Dragonball is not Hunter x Hunter

I wouldn't know. Never seen it. I hear it's good.

You're taking what I said out of context, and missing the point entirely.

Prove it

You're interrupting my post after I've already made it. Calm down and let me finish before you interject!

Prove it. How do you know wants running through Toriyama's head and are not just projecting yourself onto him?

I don't have to prove shit. Writers don't generally come up with full, consistent RPG-style numbers for all their characters; Toriyama would be quite unique if he did, so the burden of proof is on you.

If you happen to have something on you that proves Toriyama had fully-fleshed-out power level charts to hand when he was writing his stories, I'll be very impressed, and concede "victory" in this debate.

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews
[...]
He said the exact same things in multiple interviews across many years. He wouldn't be that consistent if he had just pulled shot out of his ass just for an interview. Proving again how you are in denial

I've enver seen any such interviews. Care to link some?

Thats exactly what PLs are and how both Toriyama and other official sources use them. And yes, they generally are a "who would win if these 2 fight" thing, because no one in the series has ever won a serious 1v1 fight against someone with a higher PL than them.

Power levels are people taking the vague sense of which characters are roughly on what level, and turning it into an in-depth spreadsheet of RPG stats. It's quite different from "At this point, the story seems to suggest Piccolo is about as strong as Freeza. Then Freeza powers up and trounces him, then Goku shows up and goes Super Saiyan, and is stronger."

And ultimately, power levels are based on a concept in the show that the characters in the show ultimately find to be useless (see above, with Vegeta telling Nappa to put down his Scouter).

Again, my point here was always that it bothers me that people get so into this and insist on it being a critical part of the story, when the truth is that, while there's a vague sense of who's stronger than who, quantifying it as numbers is just a road to madness.

--

A further hill to die on: Dragon Ball's absolute peak/golden age was the entire run from the 21st Tenkaichi up until Namek ended (Red Ribbon takes a little while to get going, admittedly, but 21st Tenkaichi is gold IMO. Pilaf is very much like a "pilot season". Then Androids/Cell and Boo are very much the dropoff at the end of the long run). Therefore, when most western fans skip to Raditz, they're missing out on the vast majority of the franchise's golden years.

There's a lot of points to be made about it generally being a bad idea to skip half a story anyway, but to me, this is the true tragedy of people overlooking DB; most of the best stories came before Raditz. I'm not angry at people for skipping DB, I'm sad that people are missing out on the best stuff.
It'd be like if you found out your friend, for some reason, always removes half the patty (as well as most of the bacon, where applicable, and they don't get onions, or many of the other great additions like sauces) in every burger they eat... I mean, sure, you're still eating what's probably a solid burger, but you're missing out on a huge chunk of the main attraction, and that's just sad.

You really are missing out on a lot of good material by skipping past and not watching the original DB series, because there's plenty to be had so it really shouldn't be written off. True the show does indeed start off more heavy on the comedy because Toriyama was coming off of the mostly gag based Dr. Slump when first starting the manga in 1984, but that really only holds true for the first arc or so before incrementally trending more towards a primarily action based angle especially by the time you get to the 22nd Budokai and Piccolo Daimao arcs. Personally, skipping ahead to Z similar to how FUNi did back in the mid '90s is really a thing i would not recommend doing even if some fans aren't so keen on the very beginning of the series and find it a little hard to digest because of the heavier emphasis on comedy and everything even if it's not to quite the same extent as Dr.Slump had been previously.

[ABED]

And it's a shame people who double down on not watching DB frame it as "I understand what came before, I don't need to see it" as though it's about the plot and not emotional resonance.

[Robo4900]

And it's a shame people who double down on not watching DB frame it as "I understand what came before, I don't need to see it" as though it's about the plot and not emotional resonance.

Yeah.

Honestly, "knowing the plot" is overrated in today's culture.

I know some people who watched "history of the MCU in ten minutes" videos in advance of Infinity War and Endgame, and... You're kinda missing the point by doing that. The point is to see the character arcs pay off, etc.
Sure, you'll be able to understand the events a little better than if you didn't watch such videos, but really, you're best off just not watching those movies, and instead watching what came before, then watching the later movies later on, so you can feel what the movie's supposed to make you feel. No substitute for the real thing.

(FWIW, I don't think this really applies to most of the MCU, 'cause most of those movies are very deliberately designed to be enjoyable for everyone and anyone, but those two movies in particular pretty much exist as "The climax of the 'Infinity Saga'")

[ABED]

Great example with the MCU. The reason they've been so successful is not because of the overarcing plot. It was fine but mostly window dressing. It was because of the characters. We spent so much time with them and like them. That's why you see the reaction videos of Endgame and the audience going nuts after "on your left". It's also why so many attempts to replicate the success of the MCU have failed. They don't understand the very simple reason why the MCU worked. It's not about plot, it's about character/story. Those are not the same thing.

In DB when Tenshinhan gives his life trying to get revenge, his death doesn't really register as well if you don't spend time with him. Piccolo giving his life for Gohan works because we've spent time and invested in their friendship. That said, Piccolo's arc isn't as meaningful as it could be if you don't experience his journey to the start. He's not just giving his life for a friend, he's giving his life for the child of his mortal enemy.

[Sadala Elite]

This is getting tediously long-winded, so I'm spoilering this so as to not subject those who don't care to it.

Spoiler:

All the points in that same video are the same ones I've been using. If you are so confident in your BS views then you wouldn't have anu issues watching the video in order to debunk it.

If it's the same points you've been making, then I have no need to watch the video; I'm sure you've laid out the points to the best of your ability, in a far more concise form. Besides, I'm debating with you, I'm not debating with some trumped-up YouTube influencer.

Deflecting again as usual lol

Its only because you can't debunk it, admit it lol

To be frank...
A. I don't really care enough to watch the video
B. Your attitude is rubbing me the wrong way, so I care even less than I would otherwise.
C. In general, my viewing habits tend not to be "i'm gonna watch this thing I disagree with so i can tear it apart and DEBUNK it with FACTS AND LOGIC!!"; I prefer to watch stuff I'll actually enjoy the experience of watching. If I'm going to "debunk" anything, I'm going to do it in a casual conversation with someone, not from the other side of a video I can't have a chat with.

once again deflecting lol

Vegeta and Nappa never said a thing about their PLs constantly changing even in the dub. You are just believing want you want at this point

This was bugging me, so I took the liberty of having the episode checked (subbed); it's about 19 minutes into episode 22, if you want to check for yourself...

VEGETA: Nappa, take off your Scouter.
NAPPA: What?
VEGETA: These guys can alter their battle powers in response to the battle. We can't rely on these values anymore.
NAPPA: Now that you mention it, that's right. That idiotic wimp Raditz got done in because he got overconfident in his Scouter's figures, after all.

So, according to you, I'm projecting, believing only what I want to believe, refusing to see evidence, and believing what I want, yet you so confidently denied that this critical point ever happened after I mentioned it multiple times. Well, now that I've laid out the evidence, you can't deny it anymore.

Once again, Vegeta and Nappa were in denial about how strong these Earth fighters (especially Goku) were, that's why they dismissed their scouters. Notice how Goku was the only member of the Z-crew that could actually stand up to them, why, because he was the only one with a higher PL than them, the rest got easily owned by Nappa.

Speaking of Raditz, he outright dominated Goku and Piccolo throughout their fight, why, because of his bigger PL. The only reason Raditz lost was because he got caught off guard by Gohan (who was the only one on Earth that could casually hurt him due to his PL).

And the part about changing PLs seems like a contradiction, since Nappa and Vegeta themselves were shown to power up against Goku

The fact that all of Chun's techniques did no lasting damage to Goku nor any effect on the direction of the fight (making it glorified padding),

I'm sorry, but this is straight-up bullshit. A major part of that fight is the fact that the two of them are tiring out over the course of it [because they burned out all their ki throughout the fight, duh lol]; by the end, neither can unleash a single energy attack because they're so utterly worn out. The fight then becomes a pure hand-to-hand affair [which had nothing to do with skill]. The tournament announcer then states the match has been going for four hours when we come back after the eyecatches; the two warriors are utterly tired out. [A long, tiring fighting isn't indicative of skill] Jackie Chun briefly thinks to himself, and tries to figure out how to beat him before Goku ends up dying from exhaustion. Jackie outright states in his inner monologue that, had it not been for his legs being longer than Goku, he would not have won the match; and he figures out to use this fact before they go in for the kick. In other words, after their hours of fighting evenly-matched, Roshi used his skill and strategy to figure out the one tiny advantage he could take in the end, which Goku failed to anticipate... He won the match using his head, not his fists. In that last moment before he and Goku do the flying kick at each-other, he is literally analysing ths situation, figuring out what his best chance to win in this last moment is, and he went for a strategy that won him the match. [That moment was the only single instance in the entire fight where strategy actually made a difference, all of Chun's previous tactics and techniques simply failed to do anything to Goku, proving my point]

... I don't see how you can possibly say this wasn't strategy/skill winning, when it's plainly in the text of the series (as well as being plainly in the subtext before he states it) that this is what happened.

[Oh yes, because 1 single moment of a tactic actually working suddenly means that the entire fight was a skillful, strategic affair lmao]

how we never saw the majority of them ever again (and how they would never work on any major characters)

I mean, we only see the Hellzone Grenade [which completely failed to do anything to 17 lol] once, we only see the Kaioken a handful of times in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs (and only used by Goku) [which is a power boost, nothing particularly skill-based or strategic about it], we only see the Dragon Fist twice (once in Z movie 13, once in a late GT episode) [a power boosting melee attack], we only see Goku himself go Oozaru two or three times, Gohan once or twice, Vegeta once, then Goku and Vegeta each go one further time in GT [power boost], and the Mafuba is only used about three times [and failed every time its used], Broly's "Legendary Super Saiyan" form was only seen once before Kale was introduced in Super, Piccolo's giant form [useless], Tenshinhan's multi-arm form [useless]...
I could go on, but to save myself further typing -- a lot of the most iconic Dragon Ball moves only show up a few times. "We don't see them again" doesn't mean they didn't matter.

had Goku quickly adapt to them (making then useless)

I don't get this one...
First, yes, he adapted to it... What, were you expecting Chun to pull out the drunken boxing and instantly win the match because Goku can't handle it? Do you want the fights to just have Chun try one thing, then win, or do you want to see the two of them trying all kinds of things, each fighter adapting and responding, making it a fun back-and-forth of stuff?... Or do you want to just see a couple of people punch each-other until one falls to the ground?

The fact that none of Chun's techniques did any real damage to Goku nor even forced Goku to change the tactics or the way he fights at all shows that all of Chun's moves where just gimmicks to pad out the fight. He didn't have to win with them, they just had to actually matter

Furthermore, "quickly" is relative. Goku spends at least half an episode dealing with each thing Jackie Chun tries against him before he learns to deal with it properly.

Bullshit lol. Goku instantly copied and countered all of Chun's moves nearly immediately after he used them.

And the Krillin vs Bacterian is a poor example of strategy mattering because that was basically a gag fight lmao. The fact that Krillin has no nose means that if it was written seriously then Krillin would have just knocked him out instantly

"it's a joke, therefore it doesn't count" is what I'm reading here, and frankly, I find that attitude ridiculous. It was all built up to a joke, but that doesn't mean there wasn't strategy happening. ["Oh wait, I don't have a nose" isnt a strategy lmao]
Yes, if it was "written seriously", it would have been over quickly... But if Dragon Ball in general was written more seriously, it wouldn't be nearly as fun a series, and wouldn't have nearly the impact it's ended up having. [Most of the big fights in DB (even in the original) were written more seriously than that Krillin fight, and considering the millions of DB fans world wide that treat/view DB as some edgy Shonen action show, I consider your second claim Bullshit lol.] The Piccolo and Goku driving episode is one of their best, and a lot of the Piccolo Daimao arc's brilliance lies in its weird balance of humour and darkness, creating its unique tone.[This is completely irrelevant to my argument about skill & strategy being mostly unimportant, and the King Piccolo arc had almost no humor in it compared to even most of Z. That arc stood out because of how dead serious and dramatic it was compared to what came before]

Here's the key thing, though; recognise that you're saying "if this was written differently, the outcome would have been a bit different", and you'll recognise that you're talking nonsense.

That is not what I'm saying. You just proved that you have no sense of logic lol

I challenge you to name one major fight in all of Dragonball that was actually won with skill being the deciding factor not only in the outcome, but in the entire direction of the fight.

Namu vs Ranfan (21st Tenkaichi) minor gag fight
Goku vs Jackie Chun (21st Tenkaichi) see above
Goku vs The Masked Fighter (Baba arc) minor gag fight
Yamucha vs The Invisible Man (Baba arc) minor gag fight
Kuririn vs Chiaotzu (22nd Tenkaichi) minor fight that wasn't even particularly clever
Arguably, Kuririn vs Goku (22nd Tenkaichi); Goku was ultimately the victor, and was clearly stronger, but the actual direction of the fight was heavily about strategy (with stuff like Kuririn trying to grab Goku's tail, as he learned from Goku vs Masked Man), but I won't die on this hill. You just debunked yourself
Goku vs Tenshinhan (22nd Tenkaichi) a repeat of what I argued about Goku vs Chun. All of Tien's techniques failed to do anything to Goku. The fight ended in a draw simple because they were equally strong
Tenshinhan vs Drum and Piccolo Daimao (arguable, but the deciding factor in this fight is Tenshinhan strategising about getting in close to Piccolo to use the Mafuba) This was a complete stomp match lol. Nothing Tien did mattered at all
Goku vs Piccolo Daimao (Piccolo Daimao arc) [this was simply a well made brutal brawl. Nothing particularly clever or strategic happened here)
Piccolo Jr. vs God (23rd Tenkaichi) [again, its just a well made fight, nothing effectively strategic happen]
Goku vs Piccolo Jr. (23rd Tenkaichi) [see above]
Goku & Piccolo vs Raditz (Saiyan arc) [this was pure luck. They got lucky because of Gohan's involvement]
Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta vs Ghurd/Guldo (Ginyu Force) [only Guldo was in any way tactical here]
Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn vs Captain Ginyu [this was just a brawl]
Probably one or two fights in the Garlic Jr. arc, but I'll be honest, I haven't seen it in years, and I barely remember any of it.
There's a moment in the Androids arc I'd like to highlight, where Vegeta fights #19, then challenges #20 to fight him next. Piccolo explains that Vegeta probably would have lost against #20, but his strategic mindgames led #20 to retreat, allowing Vegeta to take a senzu and recover, so he can go chase him for the next fight. Not exactly a fight win, but a major game of strategy that Vegeta played that was central to the plot.[Yeah right lmao. Vegeta simply stomp 19 and Piccolo just stomped Gero, no real strategy involved lol]

And then about here, things fall apart. Pretty much every fight in the Androids/Cell and Boo arcs is decided just by "who is strongest boy who can punch hardest."Thats 99% of all fights in the franchise, the only difference with later DB is that it stop pretending yo be more strategic than it actually is lol On the plus side, those are the last two arcs in the original manga run (no, I can't be bothered to discuss Super or GT), so overall, the show has a good track record, provided you don't skip past everything before Raditz shows up, which contains some of the best fighting in the show, as well as some of the best overall storytelling, and some great use of characters that wouldn't be employed for most of the "Z" era due to how bloated the cast became.

Dragonball is not Hunter x Hunter

I wouldn't know. Never seen it. I hear it's good.

You're taking what I said out of context, and missing the point entirely.

Prove it

You're interrupting my post after I've already made it. Calm down and let me finish before you interject!

Prove it. How do you know wants running through Toriyama's head and are not just projecting yourself onto him?

I don't have to prove shit. Writers don't generally come up with full, consistent RPG-style numbers for all their characters; Toriyama would be quite unique if he did, so the burden of proof is on you.

If you happen to have something on you that proves Toriyama had fully-fleshed-out power level charts to hand when he was writing his stories, I'll be very impressed, and concede "victory" in this debate.

Yes he in fact did lol. He even spoke on this in numerous interviews
[...]
He said the exact same things in multiple interviews across many years. He wouldn't be that consistent if he had just pulled shot out of his ass just for an interview. Proving again how you are in denial

I've enver seen any such interviews. Care to link some?

Thats exactly what PLs are and how both Toriyama and other official sources use them. And yes, they generally are a "who would win if these 2 fight" thing, because no one in the series has ever won a serious 1v1 fight against someone with a higher PL than them.

Power levels are people taking the vague sense of which characters are roughly on what level, and turning it into an in-depth spreadsheet of RPG stats. It's quite different from "At this point, the story seems to suggest Piccolo is about as strong as Freeza. Then Freeza powers up and trounces him, then Goku shows up and goes Super Saiyan, and is stronger."

And ultimately, power levels are based on a concept in the show that the characters in the show ultimately find to be useless (see above, with Vegeta telling Nappa to put down his Scouter).

Again, my point here was always that it bothers me that people get so into this and insist on it being a critical part of the story, when the truth is that, while there's a vague sense of who's stronger than who, quantifying it as numbers is just a road to madness.

--

A further hill to die on: Dragon Ball's absolute peak/golden age was the entire run from the 21st Tenkaichi up until Namek ended (Red Ribbon takes a little while to get going, admittedly, but 21st Tenkaichi is gold IMO. Pilaf is very much like a "pilot season". Then Androids/Cell and Boo are very much the dropoff at the end of the long run). Therefore, when most western fans skip to Raditz, they're missing out on the vast majority of the franchise's golden years.

There's a lot of points to be made about it generally being a bad idea to skip half a story anyway, but to me, this is the true tragedy of people overlooking DB; most of the best stories came before Raditz. I'm not angry at people for skipping DB, I'm sad that people are missing out on the best stuff.
It'd be like if you found out your friend, for some reason, always removes half the patty (as well as most of the bacon, where applicable, and they don't get onions, or many of the other great additions like sauces) in every burger they eat... I mean, sure, you're still eating what's probably a solid burger, but you're missing out on a huge chunk of the main attraction, and that's just sad.

[LoganForkHands73]

And it's a shame people who double down on not watching DB frame it as "I understand what came before, I don't need to see it" as though it's about the plot and not emotional resonance.

Yeah.

Honestly, "knowing the plot" is overrated in today's culture.

I know some people who watched "history of the MCU in ten minutes" videos in advance of Infinity War and Endgame, and... You're kinda missing the point by doing that. The point is to see the character arcs pay off, etc.
Sure, you'll be able to understand the events a little better than if you didn't watch such videos, but really, you're best off just not watching those movies, and instead watching what came before, then watching the later movies later on, so you can feel what the movie's supposed to make you feel. No substitute for the real thing.

(FWIW, I don't think this really applies to most of the MCU, 'cause most of those movies are very deliberately designed to be enjoyable for everyone and anyone, but those two movies in particular pretty much exist as "The climax of the 'Infinity Saga'")

My god, I couldn't agree more. I have to say, I look down people who think watching "durr entire lore in 5 minutes"-type videos constitutes actually experiencing the entire story. You're just watching a dry checklist of things that happen. They tell you nothing about the characters, nothing about their motivations, their internal conflicts - it's all about skimming over the raw factual events with bad jokes sprinkled in. More often than not, these types of videos tend to be incredibly inaccurate anyway. I saw one on the Mortal Kombat franchise that still makes my blood boil as it claimed Kano, the back-stabbing Black Dragon mercenary, was one of the heroes and treats Sonya killing him (which never happened) as her going mad. For any media that isn't just a straightforward chronology of events, these videos don't work.

I guess it ties into the old lore thread, because these videos turn fully-fleshed out stories into vague folkloric excerpts. There may be some exceptions where it can be okay to watch them to get a general feel of something you're completely unfamiliar with or if the older media in the story isn't widely available, but there's far better ways of learning about the history of a long-running franchise than lazily relying on these shitty clickbait videos.

And yeah, Tenshinhan's death doesn't have the same impact without the rest of DB. I've seen someone claim that anyone who was emotionally affected by his death in the Saiyan arc must be lying, which kinda illustrates how only watching DBZ would warp your view of these iconic characters.

[90sDBZ]

I completely agree that people who watch short summary videos of movies are cheating themselves out of the best experience. It's actually kind of annoying to think about.

It's like when people post every cutscene from a game on Youtube as a "movie", which people watch because they're too lazy to play the game themselves. They're missing out on the full experience.

I'll add that when I first watched Z I was fascinated by the flashbacks to DB (the earlier animation style looked really cool), and I wanted to see it for myself. I just find it hard to understand people who saw those flashbacks, and weren't in the least bit curious about what they were all about. I love Z and still prefer it overall, but DB started it all and should be watched by every fan at least once. Seeing those flashbacks for the first time without having seen DB itself was like a big tease to me, ie. an itch that needed to be satisfied.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I was curious about OG Dragon Ball because of the flashbacks and references, but it definitely took more time to get used to than Z, especially as a kid when the transformations and insane fights were much more important to me. I still enjoy them, but now as an adult fan I have much greater appreciation for character and stories, both of which only add to the payoffs in Z.

[MCDaveG]

I was curious about OG Dragon Ball because of the flashbacks and references, but it definitely took more time to get used to than Z, especially as a kid when the transformations and insane fights were much more important to me. I still enjoy them, but now as an adult fan I have much greater appreciation for character and stories, both of which only add to the payoffs in Z.

If it weren't for Buu arc, I won't be a DB fan today... DB aired in Germany before my favorite show Digimon back then and the art style and designs didn't appeal to me at all. Also, it dragged so much.
I am advocate for the whole experience today, but seeing few OGDB episodes out of context in language you don't understand much, there wasn't much to go by. Until I was sick, switching channels and stumbling upon Dr. Slump, Slayers and DBZ.