The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:11 am

The OG Dragon Ball...DRAGS? WHAT?
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:14 am

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:25 amI was curious about OG Dragon Ball because of the flashbacks and references, but it definitely took more time to get used to than Z, especially as a kid when the transformations and insane fights were much more important to me.
That's because DB was never meant to be seen after Z, as things escalated more and more as time went on.
90sDBZ wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:14 amI completely agree that people who watch short summary videos of movies are cheating themselves out of the best experience.
Same here. Those summaries should only be watched by people who've already seen the product, and just want a reminder of the events before moving on to whatever's new.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am

But he then goes on to say THE BUU ARC is what made him a fan. I dont remember that arc being fast paced at all. But now thanks to ABED I now realize that this thread is for what we DONT yield on. So its okay. Even if I massively disagree its his opinion and repecting opinions is the true purpose of the thread.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:46 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am I dont remember that arc being fast paced at all. But now thanks to ABED I now realize that this thread is for what we DONT yield on.
What's the distinction between hills we choose to die on and what we don't yield on?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am

I don't have much further to say on the subject of the plot summaries vs actual character stuff in the real product, but I agree with a lot of the posts so far. :)

My final word on the "power levels are shit" debate with Sadala Elite:
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:38 am

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am But he then goes on to say THE BUU ARC is what made him a fan. I dont remember that arc being fast paced at all. But now thanks to ABED I now realize that this thread is for what we DONT yield on. So its okay. Even if I massively disagree its his opinion and repecting opinions is the true purpose of the thread.
It felt like ages when waiting for Digimon and in Buu arc, I have started somewhere in the middle, so what I saw except for far superior art style and more epic fights was: Buu splitting in two and than merging in Super Buu, stuff with Gotenks and his fight against Buu, Gohan, Buu changing forms, Goku and Vegeta later fusing to Vegetto atc.
And I was invested in this, so I knew what was going on and it was epic, fight for the sake of Earth. I even didn't knew at first, that this was sequel to that Dragon Ball that I didn't like until I saw the opening next time :lol:

My childhood optic, look:
No really, imagine being 10 years old and being fan of Batman TAS, Pokémon and Digimon (the only anime series I knew back then)... then there is Monster Rancher, this weird Pokémon rip-off that bores you to death and Yu-Gi-Oh! Really cool anime, that is basically like playing the Pokémon TGC but with the monsters actually materializing.
Then there is this series with really unusual and compared to the late 90s anime, outdated and depressing look, where you don't know what is happening, action is not that flashy and there is this weird stuff like Piccolo laying an egg, that took like ages and was really weird and stuff like the Piccolo look-alike, screaming for ages and exploding on the stadium (which was actually cool), but being 10 years old, 16 year old series at that time, already looked like crap compared to Digimon. Until I have stumbled on the hardcore DEEBEEZEE! And luckily, it was French version with Japanese score.

Together with Slayers and Saint Seiya, it shown me that Anime is not only for small kids 6+ and selling merchandise, but can have it's own identity and I went back to actually enjoy older anime, like Seiya and Dragon Ball, then I became a huge fan of Gundam and Yu Yu Hakusho.
I don't really like the new anime... Never got caught in Naruto, altough I have saw the first series and read the whole manga till the end, and I can see that it is the ''Dragon Ball'' for younger generation than me. One Piece has great plot writing, but it is too long and I was really excited about the endgame only. After 500+ episodes I have stopped watching in the second half of the Grand Line.

So in the end, Dragon Ball has won me over and I think it is not only the proto-shonen, but the best shonen I have saw.
Only modern series I really like a lot, is Gintama and it is probably my most favorite after Dragon Ball and that it makes fun of the exact old anime titles I like and Japanese popculture is probably the main reason, shiny galactic diarrhea!
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:59 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:24 am I don't have much further to say on the subject of the plot summaries vs actual character stuff in the real product, but I agree with a lot of the posts so far. :)

My final word on the "power levels are shit" debate with Sadala Elite:
Here you go lol:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Power_Levels


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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:16 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:46 am
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am I dont remember that arc being fast paced at all. But now thanks to ABED I now realize that this thread is for what we DONT yield on.
What's the distinction between hills we choose to die on and what we don't yield on?
There isnt any and it took me a while to realize because I am dumb.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:49 pm

A. Wikis are not a cite-able source for anything.
B. The Dragon Ball Wiki in particular is utter shit.
This is just a list of various power levels at various periods, taken from various guidebooks and such, written by various people from Shueisha and Toei. It says nothing about Toriyama's writing; all it says is that some people at Shueisha decided to figure out plausible power levels for various characters at various periods based on how the story unfolds, and what Toriyama's said about relative strengths of characters.

And, as any sane person would expect, nothing seems to be listed past roughly the point where they ceased to be used in the story (end of Freeza arc), after the story itself made a point of them being pointless. :P

You've not presented anything substantial, so this debate is over, as far as I'm concerned.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:52 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:49 pm
A. Wikis are not a cite-able source for anything.
B. The Dragon Ball Wiki in particular is utter shit.
I can't believe it has to be said that wikipedia isn't a reliable source by itself.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:15 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:49 pm
A. Wikis are not a cite-able source for anything.
B. The Dragon Ball Wiki in particular is utter shit.
This is just a list of various power levels at various periods, taken from various guidebooks and such, written by various people from Shueisha and Toei. It says nothing about Toriyama's writing
Toriyama co-wrote and approved of all of those guides, a fact that you are in denial of as usual lol; all it says is that some people at Shueisha decided to figure out plausible power levels for various characters at various periods based on how the story unfolds, and what Toriyama's said about relative strengths of characters.

And, as any sane person would expect, nothing seems to be listed past roughly the point where they ceased to be used in the story (end of Freeza arc), after the story itself made a point of them being pointless. :P
Yet this is the same story well PL readings are always proven right and where higher PLs always beat lower ones, making them valid. The only thing pointless is you're denialism lmao

You've not presented anything substantial denialism lol, so this debate is over, as far as I'm concerned.
Nice straw man bro lol

That Dragonball provides links to various DB guides (like Daizenshuu) that were co-written and/or approved by Toriyama. That's the point of the link

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:16 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:52 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:49 pm
A. Wikis are not a cite-able source for anything.
B. The Dragon Ball Wiki in particular is utter shit.
I can't believe it has to be said that wikipedia isn't a reliable source by itself.
You clearly missed the point. That page provides links to various official guides (like Daizenshuu) that were co-written by Toriyama.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:32 pm

Sadala Elite wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:16 pmYou clearly missed the point. That page provides links to various official guides (like Daizenshuu) that were co-written by Toriyama.
Toriyama in no way "co-wrote" the Daizenshuu. I would suggest, assuming you do not own them and you cannot read their original Japanese conents, that you read through our databook guide to get a better understanding of what they actually are and who worked on them. People seem to assume things about their contents and their production staff without so much as ever cracking a page.

Additionally, you may wish to check your attitude when speaking on subjects you aren't fully versed on. It's pretty silly to present an air of condescending authority as you have consistently done in this conversation, particularly with a formal account strike already on file. It's OK not to know things, to ask questions, and to in turn learn new things. Everyone should strive for this all the time.

(And quite frankly, y'all have taken this conversation off the rails with this sidebar; there's no need for it to continue here. It's difficult enough, as previously noted, to separate this "hills to die on" from the "unpopular opinions" types of threads that people are so invested in as it is. Please bring it back on track, or we'll just lock the thread.)
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:16 pm

1. The American dub of DB/DBS will forever be terrible. The voice acting heavily lacks the power of the original Japanese. So unnatural, you can tell the dialogue and power ups are being forced to attempt a fit. Just another proof that it does not belong.

2. Dragonball isn't some clay where one could mold. It's story is straightforward and simple. Doesn't have a message to awaken the crowd with.

3. Dragonball is Toriyama's story. It isn't anyone else's. As the authority [canon] is the only one who can tell you the secret of being a Super Saiyan with S cells or how Old Kai was sealed in the sword, etc. There is a standard to Dragonball's story hierarchy. That is Toriyama's view only.

I'll RIP with these.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:36 pm

1. The American dubs could have been really amazing from Kai onwards if Funi had been willing to re-audition the cast, drop any number of legacy castings (including characters as major as Goku, though I think Schemmel staying as Goku is fine), and if Chris Sabat took an approach closer to Colleen Clinkenbeard's as director -- always defaulting to being as close to the intent of the Japanese version as is possible.
But, as it stands, the American dubs of today are fine. My main issue is simply that I personally think they could have made them a lot better if they'd made a few tough choices ten years ago. (And, in fairness, being sad about something like this that happened ten years ago is a little silly, so I try not to let it bother me :lol:)
Bit of a lukewarm hill to die on, I guess, but hey, this is a fun format.

2. I agree that its story is quite straightforward, and I don't think it's got profound, deep layers of meaning hidden within, but I will say, as in all media, there is inherently meaning, lessons, messages, and morals within.

3. Toriyama wrote the original manga, yes, but anything that isn't in the text of the story doesn't mean shit. (Death Of The Author)
As far as I'm concerned, "S-cells", how Elder Kaioshin was sealed in the sword, etc. is all equivalent to JK Rowling declaring that Dumbledore was gay; yes, the author thinks it, but it wasn't in the text of the story, so it's just one interpretation, which is just as valid as any other interpretation.
See also: Even though Dragon Ball Minus is "canon" these days, the Bardock TV special is the better version of that story, and that will always be the one I stick to in my head. Similarly, I prefer GT over Super, so I prefer to imagine GT is the follow up from the original manga/anime, and Super is just a spinoff that I don't need to seriously think about.
TL;DR: If it wasn't in the text of the story, it's just headcanon, and plenty of stuff that wasn't written by Toriyama is really good; you don't have to imagine it "doesn't count" just because he didn't write it, and insisting so is ridiculous IMO. The stories you prefer can form your own internal view of Dragon Ball, and no one can tell you how your own internal view should be.

--

I'll also add this one:
Dragon Ball's dubbing in Canada has consistently trounced the American counterpart at every turn, and it is a fucking crime that Funimation, AB Groupe, and MangaUK have consistently failed to officially release the Canadian dubs on DVD/Blu-ray.
(Rock The Dragon doesn't count; it went out of print immediately, and the only thing it had that wasn't already on the old DVD singles was Saban's Tree Of Might. Where's the Androids and Boo sagas? Where are the Blue Water dubs of DB and GT? Where's Kai?)
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pm

Here's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed but since it does, I'll go on the record as saying the hatred for it isn't deserved. It's like pizza - most pizza is good even so-so pizza is enjoyable.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:27 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pm Here's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed but since it does, I'll go on the record as saying the hatred for it isn't deserved. It's like pizza - most pizza is good even so-so pizza is enjoyable.
I agree.

To be honest, I think a lot of why I hated on it is just because I expected better, and there were large portions of Super that I still maintain are utter horseshit.

But taken as a whole?... Super is fine. It even has some really great parts to it; pretty much all the "filler" stuff between arcs is really great, the U6 tournament is a lot of fun (even though there are no stakes at all, at any point :lol:), and it was fun seeing Future Trunks again.
The point of Dragon Ball is to enjoy it. Never lose sight of that.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:44 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:27 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pm Here's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed but since it does, I'll go on the record as saying the hatred for it isn't deserved. It's like pizza - most pizza is good even so-so pizza is enjoyable.
I agree.

To be honest, I think a lot of why I hated on it is just because I expected better, and there were large portions of Super that I still maintain are utter horseshit.

But taken as a whole?... Super is fine. It even has some really great parts to it; pretty much all the "filler" stuff between arcs is really great, the U6 tournament is a lot of fun (even though there are no stakes at all, at any point :lol:), and it was fun seeing Future Trunks again.
I'll stand with you and ABED on that. After watching through Super, although it could never recapture the same lighting in the bottle like DB and Z did before, I thought it was pretty alright for what it was.The only part that I wasn't particularly fond of was the Tournament of Power.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:54 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:44 pmAfter watching through Super, although it could never recapture the same lighting in the bottle like DB and Z did before, I thought it was pretty alright for what it was.The only part that I wasn't particularly fond of was the Tournament of Power.
I don't think it's an issue of people not liking it because it was outright terrible as much as them expecting more. If you're going to make a sequel to one of the most beloved anime in the world, it should be better than "alright for what it was". I understand there were a lot of production issues which were out of the staff's control, but there were also issues (mainly the writing) that were the result of a lack of care on their, and especially Toriyama's part.
ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pmHere's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed.
This is the problem though, they dug up a story that ended in 95/97 to make something that's just OK, if even that. I don't have an issue with something being brought back after its initial run, but only if there's something worth adding. Apart from the BOG movie, none of these new DB stories have checked that box for me, they're just here for the sake of nostalgia, and not because they have anything worthy of adding to the story.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:51 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:44 pm
Robo4900 wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:27 pm
ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pm Here's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed but since it does, I'll go on the record as saying the hatred for it isn't deserved. It's like pizza - most pizza is good even so-so pizza is enjoyable.

To be honest, I think a lot of why I hated on it is just because I expected better, and there were large portions of Super that I still maintain are utter horseshit.

But taken as a whole?... Super is fine. It even has some really great parts to it; pretty much all the "filler" stuff between arcs is really great, the U6 tournament is a lot of fun (even though there are no stakes at all, at any point :lol:), and it was fun seeing Future Trunks again.
I'll stand with you and ABED on that. After watching through Super, although it could never recapture the same lighting in the bottle like DB and Z did before, I thought it was pretty alright for what it was.The only part that I wasn't particularly fond of was the Tournament of Power.
I am with you guys. As I wrote before, the Super version of the two movie events are kinda crap, but Super is that sequel, that I hoped for since being a kid. It is basically continuation of Z, altough with modern artstyle and bad soundtrack, but waiting for new weekly episode and watching the news about upcoming arcs, I felt like the kid that I was two decades ago again.
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