The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

[VegettoEX]

I don't see what's wrong with liking 'kids' media.

The criticism is not "liking kids' media", but exclusively clinging to it, actively refusing to absorb anything beyond it, and doubling-down when challenged on it. Please be sure to read the posts you are responding to!

[10gigtriforce]

1 there is no wrong way to watch this childrens show.
You wanna watch subbed you do you, you wanna watch it dubbed you do you, you wanna watch a slide show of the manga you do you. just dont be an ahole to people who do it different to you.

2. the older/aging fanbase of DB has hurt it over all.
A bunch of adults arguing about the right or wrong way to watch/read a children cartoon/comicbook only puts new fans off and makes ys all look bad.

3. If you spend your time arguing about a japanese childrens show online you are a weeb.
Myself included.

4. dragon ball ether needs to just stop and let the series peacefully die, or do a time skip to where the current cast is dead.
The goku time show has run its course and is boring to just see everyone else fail only for goku to come save the day again and no one else ever do anything ever. Ether just let it drift off to sleep or find a new generation cast. Preferably the former

[VegettoEX]

2. the older/aging fanbase of DB has hurt it over all.
A bunch of adults arguing about the right or wrong way to watch/read a children cartoon/comicbook only puts new fans off and makes ys all look bad.

As the senior citizen representing here, I am told my way of consuming the series is "wrong" exponentially more often than I make any comments about anyone else's preferences.

[LoganForkHands73]

Thank you, man! Great chat.

[ABED]

Similarly so is Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU/Timmverse as a whole, which are likewise perfectly serviceable children's action shows that people have DRASTICALLY blown the fuck up into these be-all, end-all examplars of sophisticated adult storytelling and art... often without themselves in ANY WAY having done even a shred of time experiencing some actual for-real examples of sophisticated adult storytelling.

Agree and I love the DCAU. I think they're genuinely great stories but they are clearly aimed at kids.

I do wonder what you mean exactly by "challenging" when talking about adult stories.

[Locust]

3. If you spend your time arguing about a japanese childrens show online you are a weeb.

I truly wish the term weeb hadn't been diluted this way. It was such a useful short term to describe people that fetishize Japanese culture (or more correctly, their IDEA of what Japan/Japanese culture is), often to the extent of wanting to be Japanese

[JulieYBM]

2. the older/aging fanbase of DB has hurt it over all.
A bunch of adults arguing about the right or wrong way to watch/read a children cartoon/comicbook only puts new fans off and makes ys all look bad.

As the senior citizen representing here, I am told my way of consuming the series is "wrong" exponentially more often than I make any comments about anyone else's preferences.

An Actual Issue (which is apparently stemming from tumblr culture?) is that adults (such as ourselves) should not engage in fandom and that we're p*d*s if we do. There's a lot of other nonsense¹ tied into this but, like, gosh, buzz off kids. I don't want to be anywhere near children (not because I hate them, but because I am none too good at self-censorship) when discussing my hobbies. The older I've gotten the more I've had to realize "Bitch, you're thirty make sure you watch how you act around kids!" and it's pretty frightening. I'm way more aware of power dynamics now than I was even just three years ago.

Wait...fuck...did I just go off on another tangent?! O.o Uh...fuck. Technically 13-17 year olds are allowed on this forum. I guess I should really tone down my language, sexuality and such...

¹The Great Himbo Discourse of 2020, in which people who want to date himbos are now like p*d*philes.

[ABED]

I know a lot of people are claiming that our culture doesn't explore art beyond what's popular but I don't think that's the case at all. We live at a time when niche programming is king, and water cooler shows are mostly non-existent. Don't just go by what's in the cinemas as indication of what people are watching. It doesn't give a full picture at all.

[JulieYBM]

What kind of people are typically drawn to a series like Dragon Ball? Children and adults who were children who grew up on such works. There's definitely a wealth of content similar enough to Dragon Ball--shounen and occasionally plot-and-action-heavy seinen comics--so it's easy for said fans to basically not explore outside of heavily commercialized pop culture works (JUMP comics, Marvel, DC junk). The problem is, that these works have a corporate mandate to work within a small box of ideas. As such, Superhero films aren't about Superman fighting for labor rights or even really Civil Rights (since labor rights are human rights, too). You don't see Superman and Batman defending Fred Hampton to the public or advocating for the abolition of police and prisons. Ultimately, these mainstream pop culture works we consume are very hollow. If they had substance they wouldn't be released or produced. Anything that helps the people over the wealthy and powerful is considered an act of violence. As such, a film with centrist-esque/neoliberal and fascist undertones like The Dark Knight, is ultimately harmless. Remember, in The Dark Knight Rises, the bad guys are thieves and lying revolutionary anarchists while the heroes are cops and a billionaire. The audience is told to put on a big ol' smile and nod along to the happy chant about how great the cops and our businessmen overlords are.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is, try to get away from mainstream film and television more. Read into the philosophies of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement and of labor. Don't just consume corporation and wealthy-approved media.

Wow, it's 9AM already? Yikes.

[ABED]

Those aren't the sort of problems Superman is equipped for. Those are more jobs for Clark Kent. Also, do you really wanna fork out 20 dollars to see him tackle the issue of slumlords? If he does, that's a story more appropriate for TV.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is, try to get away from mainstream film and television more. Read into the philosophies of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement and of labor. Don't just consume corporation and wealthy-approved media.

No, consume history textbooks sanctioned by the government.

In all seriousness. People should read a lot, even ideas they might not agree with. Then see how each side answers the issues and their opponents. Thinking through issues is difficult and time consuming.

[Kunzait_83]

I do wonder what you mean exactly by "challenging" when talking about adult stories.

Its an admittedly broad description, but if I had to narrow it down any, I would say stories & works that include any combination of any few or more of the following:

- Genuine ambiguity about more than surface-level plot details and leaves the audience questioning the very nature of much of the information presented to them.

- Dealing in complex moral questions that puts a real test and strain on one's personal ethics and most deeply held personal beliefs.

- Connects meaningfully in some way to complex and difficult real life issues, people, and/or events, particularly ones with a messy and controversial history.

- Contains characters with numerous layers and shades to their personality, and who aren't in any way necessarily likable or easily relatable. Puts the audience firmly in the shoes and perspective of a character that makes them fundamentally uncomfortable to see the world through and is a type of person whom they'd normally never consider or imagine the perspective of.

- Deals with a subject matter that isn't very well known or obscure in some way, but is nonetheless multifaceted and critical/relevant to people's lives in some way.

- Presents situations and scenarios that are genuinely upsetting and existentially terrifying for most people to even fathom considering, and through them asks deeply rooted questions that get at the heart of who we are as people.

- Presents a story/characters so layered with multiple meanings and interpretations, that there are countless deeper implications in their construction that goes well beyond the surface-level scope of the story.

- Presents characters and situations that hit EXCEEDINGLY close to home and who prod and probe at sensitive, delicate nerves in the audience's personal lives & psyche, and makes them ask difficult and uncomfortable questions about themselves or about people they know and are very close to: makes the audience question or second guess themselves on a fundamental/foundational level and look at themselves and at the people they know through a totally different prism, and makes them directly confront face to face their deepest, darkest, ugliest fears and neurosis.

There are a not-insubstantial number of people on this very forum who have never remotely come anywhere near close to ever having once experienced any work of creative art or media that comes within lightyears of ANYTHING like anything mentioned above: indeed, there are plenty of those folks who genuinely are unaware that such works even EXIST in any capacity out in the world. I mean, we're talking about an entire large subculture/community/generation of folks for whom stuff like Disney's Gargoyles and Batman: The Animated Series and whatnot really genuinely and legitimately are truly as close to ANY of those above qualities as they've ever gotten from any piece of media in their whole lives.

When in fact of reality, there not only exist a whole UNIVERSE worth of works that touch upon any number of the above points full-throttle, but they've existed since decades/centuries ago, and continue to get made even now. As someone for whom art in general matters a tremendous deal, I find it to be exceedingly important to one's personal growth and internal understanding of oneself and the world around them for most people (especially those with a still young, developing mind) to engage with works that present them with any of the above experiences and ideas/concepts that fundamentally challenge their worldviews and who they are, even if only just a few times in life.

But I would personally say (and in the full spirit of Dragon Ball), the more the better, and never stop pushing or challenging yourself.

The greatest, most important and everlasting gift that art has to give to us is the power to fundamentally change our perceptions: perceptions we have of both ourselves and those around us. Sometimes this is certainly used for ill (propaganda and such), but much more often than not I would argue it is used for TREMENDOUS good.

Either way though, you're not going to get ANY of this from the fucking Toonami or Fox Kids lineup or whatnot, and the folks around here for whom this criticism of mine most applies are needlessly robbing themselves of an incredible world of indescribable creative growth and horizons by denying themselves so many key, important works that have in many cases helped transform entire lives for the better and broaden our whole society's understanding of both our fellow man and the world we all inhabit.

[ABED]

Film Critic Hulk called movies "empathy machines" but I think that's not limited to that one medium. I do like challenging art, but more important than that - and this would be my only caveat, I'm looking for art that makes me feel something. Giving us something to think about is a bonus, but not art's primary function.

[Mister_Popo]

We are here to discuss and mark our ground now and then, but does it have to be a battle of the bastards every time?
Why so serious?

In most cases things feels so utterly performance driven, while DB should be a fun topic to talk about.
We are still a bunch of people discussing their favorite entertainment at the end. There is no deeper morality or right or wrong.
There is enough of that stuff to deal with in real life btw.

The same guys sometimes keep on repeating the same stuff over and over in the same or all different threads endlessly in order to make their mark.
Sometimes it's more laid back to give things a rest, accept it's ok to disagree (even when you know another guy is wrong), go on with something different and have a laugh together. Community feeling is at least as important as 'who has the biggest xxxx when it comes to knowledge about our favourite series and books'.

[JulieYBM]

We are here to discuss and mark our ground now and then, but does it have to be a battle of the bastards every time?
Why so serious?

In most cases things feels so utterly performance driven, while DB should be a fun topic to talk about.
We are still a bunch of people discussing their favorite entertainment at the end. There is no deeper morality or right or wrong.
There is enough of that stuff to deal with in real life btw.

The same guys keep on repeating the same stuff over and over in the same or all different threads in order to make their mark.
Sometimes it's more laid back to give things a rest, accept it's ok to disagree (even when you know another guy is wrong), go on with something different and have a laugh together. Community feeling is at least as important as 'who has the biggest xxxx when it comes to knowledge about our favourite series and books'.

The world shits on us and then down our throats for good measure all day long, it's very hard to get away from that and the pent-up stress and trauma is bound to come out somewhere.

[Matches Malone]

I'm not sure I have such an idea to be honest. In a lot of the ideas I believe in, I can also understand the other view point on the matter. For example, I think DB should always be watched before Z, but I understand why some fans decide to just skip it and move to Z. I don't agree with the idea, but I see where they're coming from. Another one is the next en concept, I think it should happen eventually, but I see why fans don't want to move past the current cast.

We are here to discuss and mark our ground now and then, but does it have to be a battle of the bastards every time?
Why so serious?

I've seen some topics where there are pages and pages of just 2 people going back and forth on the same exact idea. I'm all for a good debate, but when things turn into the same talking points being repeated over and over with neither side agreeing on anything, maybe it's time to agree to disagree and move on.

[Mister_Popo]

We are here to discuss and mark our ground now and then, but does it have to be a battle of the bastards every time?
Why so serious?

In most cases things feels so utterly performance driven, while DB should be a fun topic to talk about.
We are still a bunch of people discussing their favorite entertainment at the end. There is no deeper morality or right or wrong.
There is enough of that stuff to deal with in real life btw.

The same guys keep on repeating the same stuff over and over in the same or all different threads in order to make their mark.
Sometimes it's more laid back to give things a rest, accept it's ok to disagree (even when you know another guy is wrong), go on with something different and have a laugh together. Community feeling is at least as important as 'who has the biggest xxxx when it comes to knowledge about our favourite series and books'.

The world shits on us and then down our throats for good measure all day long, it's very hard to get away from that and the pent-up stress and trauma is bound to come out somewhere.

Yes, but i think real life / society is already pretty performance driven.
Does it have to be all the same here if you want to relax and talk about your favourite cartoon?
Fe if i post in a some thread Zamasu originated in Universe 9, not Universe 10, i'm sure within half an hour some guy will correct 'i'm afraid you haven't been paying attention' (hehe, yes indeed i have you by the balls)

Sometimes ... a little bit more relaxed and laid back would be nice, less performance driven atmosphere.

[Kunzait_83]

Film Critic Hulk called movies "empathy machines" but I think that's not limited to that one medium.

I totally agree that the "empathy machine" descriptor can be applied to a number of other artistic mediums besides just films: anything from books to comics to video games can work just as well in their own respective ways.

I do like challenging art, but more important than that - and this would be my only caveat, I'm looking for art that makes me feel something. Thinking about an issue is a bonus, but not art's primary function.

I mentioned specific issues being a possible quality, not the only or central quality that I think makes a given work challenging. Even something as simple as just putting the audience in the shoes of a type of person they never knew existed out there or had maybe written off in their heads in some way, something that shatters people's stereotypes and assumptions or that intrinsically alters the way that they look at something even otherwise banal and seemingly ordinary in the world and re-frames it in an entirely different lens.

Feeling something in a broad, general sense is of course obviously a key important part of that: but there are many different layers and many different kinds of feelings, not all of which I would argue are ultimately all that rewarding or meaningful. Making someone feel cheap pathos or maudlin wistfulness through trite, overused cliches for example is incredibly easy and is hardly all that enriching or developmentally valuable in any real way and is just empty emotional wallowing.

Making someone look at the world and at the people around them in a totally different light that they'd never considered before on the other hand... THAT not only takes talent, effort, thought, and skill, but it yields something that's actually worth a damn: insight and, at the best of times, compassion. On both an individually personal and on a broader/societal level.

And of course my whole point isn't that ONLY challenging works should be consumed or deemed valuable: I AM posting on a DB forum after all. I love a good dumb, fun, mindless action/comedy romp just as much as the next person (at least when its executed well of course). I'm simply stating what my general/broad criteria is for what might make a given work "challenging" and what that encompasses... which is what you originally asked me to do.

[LoganForkHands73]

I think a good general piece of advise is to simply get out of the house and explore your own neighbourhood, hometown, country, etc. Many people are so obsessed with absorbing other cultures that they forget to fully do the same with their own. Stay for an indie band playing at your favourite bar, make friends with the local bohemians and weirdos, find some beautiful minutae. I'm not American but I find it unfair when foreigners mock the (true) stereotype that most Americans will never make use of a passport in their lives. It's like, America is big enough to be several countries in and of itself, there's an insane amount to explore. Staycationing is fun!

Of course, it's great to have understanding of or interest in foreign cultures! However, I've met pretentious assholes who claim to be amazingly cultured because they've travelled to 38 countries and know the entire filmography of all nations in the European Union, yet know absolutely nothing about the culture of the country they've lived in the majority of their lives.

Anyway, I digress. I too love the DCAU and would say it's a solid cut above most children's cartoon franchises with how it tackles heavier issues and themes, but I'm 100% willing to admit that it's mostly not super deep. The DCAU got away with a lot more than other shows because the network censors literally couldn't care less. Dragon Ball does even less thematically but I'd be lying if I said I didn't get immense pleasure from its aesthetics and storytelling.

[VegettoEX]

In most cases things feels so utterly performance driven, while DB should be a fun topic to talk about.
We are still a bunch of people discussing their favorite entertainment at the end. There is no deeper morality or right or wrong.
There is enough of that stuff to deal with in real life btw.

If you're not interested in having the deeper conversations, you can simply choose to not participate in them. There are a million "who's your favorite character" and "how strong is ______" and so on and so forth threads here and literally everywhere else.

It strikes me as performative to pop in a thread like this just to say "why we gotta be so serious", and similar to the total non-story that is Torishima's "there is no meaning to / nothing to learn from Dragon Ball" shtick (I say "non-story" because Toriyama himself has echoed the same bullshit rhetoric for years, himself); there's deeper meaning in everything, creators are influenced by things and have views and express them in their works whether they admit to it or not, and we're all free to discuss it if we want.

I guess that's one of my hills to die on? Doesn't seem like much of a hill, though.

[Kunzait_83]

I guess that's one of my hills to die on? Doesn't seem like much of a hill, though.

Respectfully disagree. Seems like a fairly substantive point to me.