The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

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ABED
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:42 am

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:54 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:44 pmAfter watching through Super, although it could never recapture the same lighting in the bottle like DB and Z did before, I thought it was pretty alright for what it was.The only part that I wasn't particularly fond of was the Tournament of Power.
I don't think it's an issue of people not liking it because it was outright terrible as much as them expecting more. If you're going to make a sequel to one of the most beloved anime in the world, it should be better than "alright for what it was". I understand there were a lot of production issues which were out of the staff's control, but there were also issues (mainly the writing) that were the result of a lack of care on their, and especially Toriyama's part.
ABED wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:54 pmHere's a hill I'm willing to die on - Super is enjoyable. I'd be fine if it never existed.
This is the problem though, they dug up a story that ended in 95/97 to make something that's just OK, if even that. I don't have an issue with something being brought back after its initial run, but only if there's something worth adding. Apart from the BOG movie, none of these new DB stories have checked that box for me, they're just here for the sake of nostalgia, and not because they have anything worthy of adding to the story.
And I'm fine with just okay, especially at a $6 per month price point. Okay pizza is still pizza.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:09 am

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:36 pm (Rock The Dragon doesn't count; it went out of print immediately, and the only thing it had that wasn't already on the old DVD singles was Saban's Tree Of Might. Where's the Androids and Boo sagas? Where are the Blue Water dubs of DB and GT? Where's Kai?)
Well considering the original dub of DBZ seasons 1-2 and the three movies were entirely made by Funimation I wouldn't count them as Canadian dubs, despite having a Canadian cast but I know what you mean. It sucks that the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, which resonated with fans like us who grew up in the countries those dubs were created for never had a home release. A hill I will die on is that those dubs would sell enough to make them a worthwhile endeavour, especially the Westwood dub or Kai.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Robo4900 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:56 pm

Dragon Ball Ireland wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:09 am
Robo4900 wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:36 pm (Rock The Dragon doesn't count; it went out of print immediately, and the only thing it had that wasn't already on the old DVD singles was Saban's Tree Of Might. Where's the Androids and Boo sagas? Where are the Blue Water dubs of DB and GT? Where's Kai?)
Well considering the original dub of DBZ seasons 1-2 and the three movies were entirely made by Funimation I wouldn't count them as Canadian dubs, despite having a Canadian cast but I know what you mean. It sucks that the Westwood and Blue Water dubs, which resonated with fans like us who grew up in the countries those dubs were created for never had a home release. A hill I will die on is that those dubs would sell enough to make them a worthwhile endeavour, especially the Westwood dub or Kai.
Agreed!

I'm sure if MangaUK or whoever got their shit together and decided to release the old Canadian dubs (and Kai) on DVD (provided it's not an overpriced, limited-edition affair... Lookin' at you, Rock The Dragon set!), it'd sell like hotcakes.

Ideally, they'd put it on streaming, rather than DVD; handle it like Digimon was handled here on Netflix for a while, where there are two entires for the show -- one is Japanese subbed and uncut, the other is the original English TV dub. (Ideally we'd have this for DB, Z, GT, and Kai)
But, I would be happy with DVDs too. Whatever form it had to take, I'm sure it would fly off the shelves.

To be honest, thinking briefly on that aside about RTD being overpriced, I have another interesting few hills to die in in regards to a hypothetical mass market release of the Canadian dubs: Personally, I would advocate for the Canadian dubs being priced significantly cheaper than the uncut DVDs. Sell them very cheap, and put them out as just DVD-encoded transfers of the master tapes of the Canadian-dubbed run. Set it apart as being a cheaper, dub-only, DVD-only product people can pick up from stores all over, to distinguish it from the uncut releases. I imagine most casuals and such will just pick up whatever's cheapest and newest, so it would sell well on that front, hopefully pushing the Orange Bricks away. I would also advocate for releasing Kai first, since I think it'd be easier to sell 98 episodes that were all dubbed at once, and are presented as one cohesive series, than it is to sell 276 Z episodes from three different dubbing eras, and it's an easier sell than DB or GT since "Z"-aligned products, Kai or otherwise, have always sold better in the west. And I think you could price 98 episodes lower than you could price 276, 153, 64, or indeed, 493 if there was a set of the entire DB+Z+GT run.
I would also say that for a Westwood Z DVD release, episodes 54-107 should be the alternative edits of the Funi dub that Ocean produced for YTV; the editing slip-ups that Funi made were fixed ("Don't piss off the Dragon God of Love!" was used instead of its alternate in the Funi dub, necessitating Toonami UK's editors to -- after noticing the error -- mute the line; YTV used an alternate line), and in general it was a better-edited presentation, by all accounts. Plus, it would keep the whole post-Saban run strictly to material Ocean produced or distributed (or both).
Furthermore, ideally, the basis for a release would be the Canadian masters, since they are the most complete copies of each episode. (The UK airings of a handful of episodes are slightly different; most notably, GT episode 64 featured a cut-down version of the ending montage. There are other similar edits here and there, mostly motion-blur censorship of flashing images that was applied to UK airings but not the Canadian airings)

... I've thought a lot about this. :lol:
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:42 pm

Robo4900 wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:27 pm But taken as a whole?... Super is fine. It even has some really great parts to it; pretty much all the "filler" stuff between arcs is really great, the U6 tournament is a lot of fun (even though there are no stakes at all, at any point :lol:), and it was fun seeing Future Trunks again.
Eh... I'd say that there was still about as much at stake as any previous tournament. There may be no major negative consequences for losing, but it's no different to all the Tenkaichi Budokai in that regard. I liked that the Tournament of Destroyers threw in a lot of curveballs and twists that kept things engaging. Buu being unable to compete, the whole deal surrounding Monaka, Frost cheating, Goku "losing" early, and of course everything involving Hit.

And just like in the old tournaments, Goku ultimately loses in the end (albeit by technicality... also quite similar to many old tournament results :lol: ).

While the animation was still in a dodgy phase, I've really come to respect the Universe 6 arc for its creative simplicity. I think it's really underrated - that's a hill to die on (I know you said it was fun so you probably don't disagree, just making my own hill-dying point :thumbup: )

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:42 pm

To me, Super is something that just sort of exists. The anime obviously suffered from a difficult production schedule, while the manga was clearly made primarily to promote the anime (at least early on), but neither version is terrible. Oh, except maybe for the movie adaptations. I couldn’t care less for those, but in the case of the RF part, I already disliked the movie it was based on anyway.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:07 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:42 pm To me, Super is something that just sort of exists. The anime obviously suffered from a difficult production schedule, while the manga was clearly made primarily to promote the anime (at least early on), but neither version is terrible. Oh, except maybe for the movie adaptations. I couldn’t care less for those, but in the case of the RF part, I already disliked the movie it was based on anyway.
This may be a noob question, but why did they choose to retell the events of BoG and RF in the anime?
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:21 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:07 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:42 pm To me, Super is something that just sort of exists. The anime obviously suffered from a difficult production schedule, while the manga was clearly made primarily to promote the anime (at least early on), but neither version is terrible. Oh, except maybe for the movie adaptations. I couldn’t care less for those, but in the case of the RF part, I already disliked the movie it was based on anyway.
This may be a noob question, but why did they choose to retell the events of BoG and RF in the anime?
Mostly to buy the staff time to get their act together, as Super's production was extremely rushed, so they needed every episode they could get to turn things around.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:36 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:21 pm
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:07 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:42 pm To me, Super is something that just sort of exists. The anime obviously suffered from a difficult production schedule, while the manga was clearly made primarily to promote the anime (at least early on), but neither version is terrible. Oh, except maybe for the movie adaptations. I couldn’t care less for those, but in the case of the RF part, I already disliked the movie it was based on anyway.
This may be a noob question, but why did they choose to retell the events of BoG and RF in the anime?
Mostly to buy the staff time to get their act together, as Super's production was extremely rushed, so they needed every episode they could get to turn things around.
Oh wow it was that bad? I can't even imagine the kind of hell the production crew had to go through.
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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:40 pm

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:36 pm Oh wow it was that bad? I can't even imagine the kind of hell the production crew had to go through.
The biggest issue with Super is that it was green lit out of nowhere, as a result of RF's box office numbers. When they saw that RF was a success, they wanted a new DB show to air right after Kai's Buu arc, the problem is that there was only 10-12 episodes left of Kai. As a result, Super only got around 3 months of pre-production time, when the average is at least 6 months.

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by Planetnamek » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:41 am
Kunzait_83 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:12 am BIG OLD SNIPSNIP
Might wanna give your shift button a rest there, bud. :lol:

But honestly, I've come to agree with the final point especially. I went on a rant recently about how modern animation fans are always so intent on overselling their favourite kid-friendly properties to try and justify to themselves why they're so obsessed with them. We all loved Disney (EDIT: Not the company, but some of the films they've made in the past) and Pixar at some point in our lives, they have all produced great works of art... but they're not the be-all-end-all, especially not for animation. Fans get so insanely defensive of their childhood properties that they lose sight of themselves. The Gargoyles fanbase for instance seem to be under the impression it's a dark, adult drama and an undeniable fuck you to the Animation Age Ghetto, ignoring the patently obvious fact that it's a fucking dumb TMNT-esque action show about magic cartoon gargoyles coming to life and fighting crime in Manhattan, with a villain that builds a castle on his personal skyscraper. I can understand enjoying it, I can understand being a fan of it, but it's not deep, high art. There's no need to pretend it is! It's absolutely fine for it not to be! That may have sounded like a weird target, but I saw an article where someone was discussing why more emphasis should be put on the true artistic innovators in animation such as Jan Svankmejer and the writer dared to throw shade on Gargoyles, invoking the fanbase's wrath. I wish people would just accept things for what they are rather than trying to justify their hobbies and interests insincerely.

Your point about Journey to the West really hit me. I've only read excerpts of it at a museum, I've seen various other adaptations (Monkey Magic FTW lol) but it's a damn good point that I and many others haven't truly ever got the full experience with it. I'm equally guilty of overlooking this massive cultural phenomenon that heavily inspired the entire franchise this forum is dedicated to. I had a New Years Resolution to read more, so I'd better put it on the list.

The thing is, art is hard. Our culture has never been great at encouraging people to explore art beyond the popular consensus. The vast majority of people don't go out of their way to find music, film, literature etc with the intent to challenge or enlighten themselves. But modern western culture has deified nostalgic, child-friendly properties so much that people have convinced themselves they mean more than they do. I mean, kids who grew up in the '50s may have some nostalgic attachment to Muffin the Mule, but they don't pretend it was a deep show with secretly adult themes in the same way that 2000s kids (and adults) glorify, say, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Both shows served the exact same purpose: to entertain little girls with pretty equine characters, nothing more.
If you're talking about that godawful Cartoon Brew article, then i'm sorry i've got to side with the fans on this one, I get thinking Gargoyles is a bit overpraised, but the way that asshat ranted about the show made him come off as a bitter insecure manchild and certainly did not in any way make me open to hearing dissenting opinions on the show. It's not high-art but it was definitely a considerably step-up from a lot of kids media at the time(and several people would argue it was more 'mature" then stuff supposedly for adults like South Park). Bottom line, if you're trying to convince people to hear opposite opinions on a thing you like-stuff like that article is the prime example of how NOT to do that, that only makes fans more defensive and has them assume that all dissenting opinions are bullshit, which has it's own problems, but you read whiny bullshit like that article it's honestly hard to blame fans for not wanting to hear grown men ranting about how a thing they like sucks, that guy just comes as a genuinely unpleasant asshole to be around and i've got zero interest in anything he has to say as a result of that dumb article. You can appreciate Jan without throwing shade at other animated shows, i'm pretty sure Jan would think less of people for attacking Gargoyles and it's fans, frankly i'd be embarrassed by those kinds of stans if I was Jan myself. Personally i'm fine with what Wiseman did with the series, unlike JKR's stupid tidbits about Harry Potter(a series which I still respect even if I no longer respect the author as a person, at least not until she apologizes and atones for what she said and did) Wiseman genuinely adds to the franchise rather then detracts(and at least Gargoyles never got any stupid Fantastic Beasts-esque prequels that only detracted from the franchise as a whole).

I don't think there's anything wrong with guys liking Friendship is Magic, it's not really my thing personally but i'm not going to judge.

As for Journey to the West i've never read it myself, though I play the video game "Enslaved: Odyssey to the West"(which is criminally overlooked and it's a goddamn shame it didn't do better thanks to EA doing a real shit job of promoting it and releasing it alongside some other blockbuster titles so it hardly stood a chance) which is a interesting post-apocalyptic take on Journey and I quite enjoyed that. I don't really read much in the way of fictional literature these days, most of what I read is non-fiction stuff like autobiographies of famous musicians because that's just what interests me. Though I will say DBZ certainly helped fuel my interest in martial-arts movies and I ended checking a bunch of action movies dubbed by Tai Seng as a result.
Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:28 am I don't see what's wrong with liking 'kids' media. The following quote comes to mind:

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

- C. S. Lewis

Anyway to get back on topic, I think the memes coming from the various dubs and fan works are mostly fine, and not the horrible scourge some people like to paint them as. ('Over 9000' got old fast, though).
Very true, Neil Gaiman had a similar quote about how adults were actually more immature then kids because of how much they obsessed over things like minor details in superhero comics, but i'm having trouble finding it at the moment.
JulieYBM wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:08 pm What kind of people are typically drawn to a series like Dragon Ball? Children and adults who were children who grew up on such works. There's definitely a wealth of content similar enough to Dragon Ball--shounen and occasionally plot-and-action-heavy seinen comics--so it's easy for said fans to basically not explore outside of heavily commercialized pop culture works (JUMP comics, Marvel, DC junk). The problem is, that these works have a corporate mandate to work within a small box of ideas. As such, Superhero films aren't about Superman fighting for labor rights or even really Civil Rights (since labor rights are human rights, too). You don't see Superman and Batman defending Fred Hampton to the public or advocating for the abolition of police and prisons. Ultimately, these mainstream pop culture works we consume are very hollow. If they had substance they wouldn't be released or produced. Anything that helps the people over the wealthy and powerful is considered an act of violence. As such, a film with centrist-esque/neoliberal and fascist undertones like The Dark Knight, is ultimately harmless. Remember, in The Dark Knight Rises, the bad guys are thieves and lying revolutionary anarchists while the heroes are cops and a billionaire. The audience is told to put on a big ol' smile and nod along to the happy chant about how great the cops and our businessmen overlords are.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is, try to get away from mainstream film and television more. Read into the philosophies of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement and of labor. Don't just consume corporation and wealthy-approved media.

Wow, it's 9AM already? Yikes.
I definitely disagree on that, there's plenty of mainstream fictional media that does in fact question that sort of thing, HBO's Watchmen is a prime example, that's how a lot of people first heard about the horrific bombing of Black Wall Street in Tulsa, OK(I myself had learned about it years earlier thanks to an article on Cracked) so i'd argue there's plenty of mainstream stuff that is not the least bit "hollow" and i'd argue Superheroes can be just as profound as well. Black Panther certainly meant a hell of a lot to the black community regardless if you think it's "Shallow" or not.

Funny thing about Dark Knight Rises, there was actually a deleted scene that better explained the film's stance and showed that Nolan wasn't going for pro-fascism:https://www.cracked.com/article_20969_6 ... ovies.html

I don't think there's anything at all wrong with enjoying mainstream fictional medal, I don't give a rat's ass if it's "corporation approved" or not, you can still enjoy that stuff while also acknowledging that real life is nothing like it. I read pro-black websites like The Root so I stay pretty well-informed about these types of things, but i'm not going to refuse to watch the latest blockbuster just because it's not advocating to kill the rich or whatever(especially not in these dark times, i've got way more important things to worry about then how a fictional piece of media presents a message).
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:02 pm I think a good general piece of advise is to simply get out of the house and explore your own neighbourhood, hometown, country, etc. Many people are so obsessed with absorbing other cultures that they forget to fully do the same with their own. Stay for an indie band playing at your favourite bar, make friends with the local bohemians and weirdos, find some beautiful minutae. I'm not American but I find it unfair when foreigners mock the (true) stereotype that most Americans will never make use of a passport in their lives. It's like, America is big enough to be several countries in and of itself, there's an insane amount to explore. Staycationing is fun!

Of course, it's great to have understanding of or interest in foreign cultures! However, I've met pretentious assholes who claim to be amazingly cultured because they've travelled to 38 countries and know the entire filmography of all nations in the European Union, yet know absolutely nothing about the culture of the country they've lived in the majority of their lives.

Anyway, I digress. I too love the DCAU and would say it's a solid cut above most children's cartoon franchises with how it tackles heavier issues and themes, but I'm 100% willing to admit that it's mostly not super deep. The DCAU got away with a lot more than other shows because the network censors literally couldn't care less. Dragon Ball does even less thematically but I'd be lying if I said I didn't get immense pleasure from its aesthetics and storytelling.
normally i'd agree with you, but with COVID still being a thing that's kind of hard to justify doing when you are literally risking your own life and others by going to places you don't have to go to(especially a bar, where social distancing is virtually impossible, I didn't even like going to bars before COVID as I don't like crowds or cramped areas and I despise the taste of alcohol, so i've got even less reason to go to one now). I'm staying at home most of the time not because i'm close-minded, but out of concern for my own safety and for my parents(who are both getting up there in years and are very much in the at-risk category).

Anyways the hill i'll die on as that it's ridiculous to get mad at Funimation for shit they did 20 years ago, hate the dub all you want, but it's not like its your only legal option like it was way back in the Toonami era, now you've got a subbed version, enjoy it! And don't get mad at people like me for preferring the dub.
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:27 am
Zestanor wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:15 pm My hill to die on: “Piracy” is the inevitable result of crappy and overpriced home releases and increased internet download speeds. It is a spontaneous thing, not a malicious one. Big corporations need to factor it into their business model instead of pretending there’s a way to make it go away. Also home video is dead.

This is coming from someone who bought the US Dragon Boxes and Blue Bricks when they came out abd still owns them. Yarrgh.
This may not be 100% on the topic of Dragon Ball, but this makes me think of game piracy in a way.

Gabe Newell said that the best way to combat piracy is to give customers a better experience than what the pirates give them. This is true. Playing a game on Steam will always be a infinitely better experience than pirating games. Only very rarely is that not the case.

With DB home media, Toei nor Funi are yet to even play catch-up with the kind of things piracy has been offering DB fans for years.
Speaking of video game piracy, hoo boy there are definitely times when I was tempted into using emulators, as i've been buying a lot of sixth-generation titles, some of which have gotten pricey as hell(I spent 110 dollars on Haunting Ground on PS2 months ago and that was before it's price went up even more, i'm not even going to think of buying Rule of Rose as that sells for like 500 bucks and the gameplay does not look great anyways, so i'll just settle for watching a Let's Play) but I prefer playing my games on the actual consoles and I don't have the know-how to mod them myself(though I am considering buying a Swap Magic so I can play games like Project Altered Beast that only ever came out overseas) so I end up saving up biting the bullet and buying the cheapest copy I can find on Ebay.

Anyways my view on piracy is that it's fine if it's something that's long out of print and really expensive or it's something that was only ever released overseas or was never officially released period, I prefer physical media myself, so I only do piracy as a last resort.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku

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Re: The hills we choose to die on and the fights we battle for when it comes to Dragon Ball

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:45 am

Planetnamek wrote: Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:47 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:27 am
This may not be 100% on the topic of Dragon Ball, but this makes me think of game piracy in a way.

Gabe Newell said that the best way to combat piracy is to give customers a better experience than what the pirates give them. This is true. Playing a game on Steam will always be a infinitely better experience than pirating games. Only very rarely is that not the case.

With DB home media, Toei nor Funi are yet to even play catch-up with the kind of things piracy has been offering DB fans for years.
Anyways my view on piracy is that it's fine if it's something that's long out of print and really expensive or it's something that was only ever released overseas or was never officially released period, I prefer physical media myself, so I only do piracy as a last resort.
Precisely. A complete Z DBox set can easily cost you 1000 dollars or even more. Such is the result of it being in such limited supply but high demand, as to this day, it is still the best way to watch the original series.

The 30th Anniversary Set could be seen as an alternative, but again, it's still a limited collector's release. So it will command an absurd price higher than it deserves to be. And in the video department, it's worse in almost every way to the old DBox. If you have the money for that to throw at a whim, you might as well go all in and just buy the DBox.
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