Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Yeah, I think if there’s any character in Dragon Ball where being white would make sense, it would be Bulma. She’s basically an American princess stereotype at the beginning of the series. She even carries around guns, which is another well known stereotype that’s commonly associated with white America.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by eledoremassis02 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:31 am
FireFly wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:44 am
How exactly do different ethnic groups sound different if assuming that they already speak fluent, American-sounding English? The thought that we should have minority-specific voices for characters is a bit of a racial stereotype in the first place, no?

I'd say it's probably a bad thing if tons of ethnic minority voice actors and actresses apply for these roles and still don't get them because whites are being preferred over them, but there're actually quite a few Asian and black voice actors in the west that have gotten prominent roles like Hinata Hyuga being given to Stephanie Sheh, or Kaiji Tang getting Guts from Berserk. We've still some progress to make, but let's not pretend there should be some sort of affirmative action bullshit in the field of voice acting.
That's....pretty ridiculous logic. And I'm not even gonna talk about "fluent, American-sounding English" because that's gonna be a repeat of the Super thread when the U11 voices first came up and...yikes.

I think, all things equal, anybody should be able to play any character they want. That's the beauty of voice acting.

However, all things aren't equal. Minority voice actors have trouble getting in the door to begin with. So having minority characters voiced by white people when there are plenty of talented minority voice actors who could do it themselves and are still waiting on an opportunity is quite frankly, ridiculous. I mean, don't get me wrong I love hearing Cree Summers and Kevin Michael Richardson but it's crazy how they're among just a few people you hear for any black character.

I just think for anime dub, it's a little weird to have the discussion when the characters are already removed from their language anyway. And I certainly wouldn't want a black guy playing Popo, Jesus Christ.
I agree to an extent but outside of it being "foreign" and even that is arguable with the power, FUNimation has gotten in the anime industry, at the end of the day its voice acting and not much different than the Simpsons where they (arguably) choose the voice closest to the drawing compared to finding the closest English voice to their Japanese counterpart. I am not going into the popo debate because that's a whole other can of worms. And don't get me wrong, there are some performances I absolutely love, such as Beau Billingslea's Jet Black and Steven Blums Onizuka. But I don't think it hurts to try and diverse anime voice actor talent pool. And when it comes to anime, there maybe could be a chance for correction, of sorts, with minority characters and lack of overall awareness of certain cultural elements in Japan and even their dubbing studio counterparts. Ultimately, I do feel it should go to the best person. A non-white (or Asian) voice actor could be Goku or Naruto etc., just as much as a black actor could play Spider-man (and I think Cowboy people set a great example of this). But we have to start somewhere and get more representation in Anime voice acting because we have some of the most open and diverse fanbases/people who are legitimately interested in getting/ working in the field.

Should the voice actors step down? I don't think so, but again Twitter is talking about Samurai Jack now (which is part of the reason why I brought this up) because people are asking him to stand down because white actors are dropping roles where they play minorities and with the overall conversation on race in entertainment (and the overall political climate in entertainment in general).

Also, you guys are correct. The Bulma thing was about the actress herself, not her race.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:28 pm

I couldn't care less if it's not a black or an Asian actor/actress doing the voices for Asian or black characters if they're done well. I mean, Monica Rial and Chris Sabat voiced African-Americans in a show I'm not remembering at the moment and they worked well. Samurai Jack is voiced by Phil LaMarr, an African-American and he hasn't been given shit for his performance. Hell, most anime that are set in Japan and that have Japanese characters are dubbed over by white people.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:35 pm

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:21 pm
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:31 am
FireFly wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:44 am
How exactly do different ethnic groups sound different if assuming that they already speak fluent, American-sounding English? The thought that we should have minority-specific voices for characters is a bit of a racial stereotype in the first place, no?

I'd say it's probably a bad thing if tons of ethnic minority voice actors and actresses apply for these roles and still don't get them because whites are being preferred over them, but there're actually quite a few Asian and black voice actors in the west that have gotten prominent roles like Hinata Hyuga being given to Stephanie Sheh, or Kaiji Tang getting Guts from Berserk. We've still some progress to make, but let's not pretend there should be some sort of affirmative action bullshit in the field of voice acting.
That's....pretty ridiculous logic. And I'm not even gonna talk about "fluent, American-sounding English" because that's gonna be a repeat of the Super thread when the U11 voices first came up and...yikes.

I think, all things equal, anybody should be able to play any character they want. That's the beauty of voice acting.

However, all things aren't equal. Minority voice actors have trouble getting in the door to begin with. So having minority characters voiced by white people when there are plenty of talented minority voice actors who could do it themselves and are still waiting on an opportunity is quite frankly, ridiculous. I mean, don't get me wrong I love hearing Cree Summers and Kevin Michael Richardson but it's crazy how they're among just a few people you hear for any black character.

I just think for anime dub, it's a little weird to have the discussion when the characters are already removed from their language anyway. And I certainly wouldn't want a black guy playing Popo, Jesus Christ.
I agree to an extent but outside of it being "foreign" and even that is arguable with the power, FUNimation has gotten in the anime industry, at the end of the day its voice acting and not much different than the Simpsons where they (arguably) choose the voice closest to the drawing compared to finding the closest English voice to their Japanese counterpart. I am not going into the popo debate because that's a whole other can of worms. And don't get me wrong, there are some performances I absolutely love, such as Beau Billingslea's Jet Black and Steven Blums Onizuka. But I don't think it hurts to try and diverse anime voice actor talent pool. And when it comes to anime, there maybe could be a chance for correction, of sorts, with minority characters and lack of overall awareness of certain cultural elements in Japan and even their dubbing studio counterparts. Ultimately, I do feel it should go to the best person. A non-white (or Asian) voice actor could be Goku or Naruto etc., just as much as a black actor could play Spider-man (and I think Cowboy people set a great example of this). But we have to start somewhere and get more representation in Anime voice acting because we have some of the most open and diverse fanbases/people who are legitimately interested in getting/ working in the field.

Should the voice actors step down? I don't think so, but again Twitter is talking about Samurai Jack now (which is part of the reason why I brought this up) because people are asking him to stand down because white actors are dropping roles where they play minorities and with the overall conversation on race in entertainment (and the overall political climate in entertainment in general).

Also, you guys are correct. The Bulma thing was about the actress herself, not her race.
Oh don't get me wrong, I agree that it would be great if more Asian American actors were cast in anime roles and it should happen more often. I just don't think it's a moral failing to cast white actors as anime characters, either, due to the nature of anime dubbing.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:47 pm

As always, please be sure to read the thread that you're responding to before tossing in your own two cents!
8000 Saiyan wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:28 pm
I couldn't care less if it's not a black or an Asian actor/actress doing the voices for Asian or black characters if they're done well.
See my earlier point (re-pasting below) about, yeah, that's really ideal, but that's not the world we live in with the opportunities available.
VegettoEX wrote:"The role should go to the best audition" is some "all lives matter" kind of energy. Like, it's theoretically rooted in this pure ideology where our world has transferred to being a utopia and racism has truly ended and everyone is legitimately on equal ground... but that's just not reality, and it's (whether willfully or simply out of ignorance) covering your eyes.
And then there's this:
WittyUsername wrote:I’ve frankly never even seen this discussion being applied to anime dubs until this very thread. There have been numerous complaints about the FUNimation voice cast over the years, but I’ve certainly never heard anyone argue that Sean Schemmel shouldn’t voice Goku because he’s white. Granted, it wouldn’t surprise me if we start hearing random people on Twitter arguing for this, because, to be blunt, the people on that platform are always looking for something to rail about these days.
So when is it acceptable for people to start questioning things? Does it have to be the instant it's released? Or can we look back on things and go "waaaaaaaaaait a minute?"

Let's not play the "oh it's just the tweeters!" dismissal game. This is a community built around legitimate and open conversation, and we explicitly outline it as such:
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:02 pm

For the record, I’m fine with having a discussion. That’s why I asked the question that I asked. I wasn’t being facetious when I asked it. I genuinely want to know what people have to say about anime characters being voiced by non-Asian actors, because that’s definitely more of a difficult conundrum to figure out.

As for my comment about Twitter, I have a massive hatred for that website in general, and admittedly, it’s sometimes difficult for me to hide my hatred for it. I didn’t mean to suggest that only Twitter fanatics are talking about this.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:48 pm

There's a massive discussion going on about this in the VO circles, and it's admittedly some tricky waters to navigate given what we have been used to. I'm seeing some decent arguments on both sides of the fence here.

In writing that last sentence, it may come across as me being deliberately vague on where I personally stand. That's not the case. For whatever it's worth, beyond not wanting to participate in anything that could perpetuate a racist stereotype, I honestly don't know where I stand yet on this issue. I'm a white guy, so I think it's important to hear from POC regarding what they think, as the one thing that is clearly apparent to me is that their voices and opinions have been neglected for far too long.

So, on the one hand....

-I've heard some colored actors say that they don't want people to go overboard with ethnically accurate casting because it would be more limiting than helpful. Several black voice actors have said that they've historically had a rough time in their career getting cast in roles because they've only been allowed to audition for black characters. They've said that if casting becomes too politically correct, then it simply diminishes the number of auditions they get, and that what they'd really want is to be allowed to audition for any role they can as long as they can sound the part. Heck, that's the appeal for many voice actors: you're not as limited by your appearance in terms of what roles you can play.

-It gets even trickier when it comes to dubs...dubs are known as "localization" for a reason: you're creating a version for the local culture. So some people have made the argument that, since we're already in the act of localizing a different culture's story anyway, and the local culture--which is to say, the American culture--includes many ethnic groups, there's nothing wrong with casting voice actors who aren't that character's race as long as they're not perpetuating any racist stereotypes. The US--and Canada, for that matter--is in a unique quandary here since they are very much cultural melting pots. It's less of a problem for Italy, where most of the population is Italian, and therefore, they don't have to worry about authentic ethnic casting for Italian dubs. They don't have much of a choice, the actors pretty much have to be Italian since that's the only talent pool they have to pick from. Same deal for pretty much any other country you can think of. I wouldn't call the Japanese racist, for example, for casting Japanese actors in a Japanese dub of something that was originally English in origin.

On the other hand.....

-America has a famously uncomfortable history of white people depicting other races in a demeaning way. One need look no further than blackface and those horrible minstrel shows. I know I, as a white voice actor, would sure as hell not be comfortable playing a black character. The flip-side, admittedly, is that I played a few Japanese characters in an English dub of a Japanese live-action Netflix show (The Naked Director). That said, at the time, I didn't think anything of it. Firstly because I wasn't using any accents or perpetuating any racial stereotypes in my performance, and secondly because I felt it was OK because there had been a very, very long history of voice actors of different ethnic backgrounds voicing characters in dubs that weren't their ethnicity. America's history of having white people portray Asians in demeaning ways, while certainly far from spotless (such as Mickey Rooney playing Mr. Yunioshi or the "Chinese Baby" Jell-O commercial), didn't strike me as egregious as how black people were portrayed. Nevertheless, I've been grappling with my involvement in that dub lately. If I would never voice a black character, why was I OK voicing Asian characters? Like I said, I never perpetuated any racist stereotypes in my performances...but still, lately I have been having mixed thoughts about whether it was right for me to take the roles I was offered.

-As far as localization is concerned, there's an incredibly strong argument to be made that American culture is not one that is based on any one particular ethnicity. Our culture is one that includes many different ethnic groups, and is increasingly becoming a culture that wants to respect the uniqueness of those different ethnic groups. So, if you're localizing for the local culture...well, the local culture is becoming more and more aware as time goes on of the lack of representation that POC have in comparison to white people. So, our local culture would want to take ethnically accurate testing into account.

All that to say, this is tricky stuff. Very, very tricky stuff. As a white guy, I think my job is to listen, and I can tell you all that the VO community is listening and talking about this as well.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Robo4900 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:54 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:02 pm
As for my comment about Twitter, I have a massive hatred for that website in general, and admittedly, it’s sometimes difficult for me to hide my hatred for it.
Eh, don't hide your hatred of Twitter. It is a hellhole.

But, I think it's a little dismissive to talk of this discussion only in this context.

--

My thoughts: Representation and work for minorities is always a good thing, so I'm in full support of any attempts to have a more diverse cast in anything, particularly in things like Dragon Ball, where there's a problematic history that needs to be addressed by modern instalments (though the modern instalments continue to fail in this regard -- Popo's continued broken-speaking presence, that episode where Roshi repeatedly attempts to sexually assault a girl in Tenshinhan's dojo and it's played for laughs, etc.).

Personally, I think the Japanese cast is going to be completely replaced whenever enough of the main players have died and/or retired. Probably this would have to happen after Toriyama has walked away from it too, which may be several years away (and I do hope it's a really long time away; I hope the entire remaining Japanese cast has a lot of years left in them. As for Toriyama, I actually have no idea. He could step away from Dragon Ball tomorrow, or he could stay with the franchise until the day he dies, I don't think anyone can predict him).
But, I'm gonna guess any kind of Japanese reboot of Dragon Ball would fail to do away with a lot of the problematic elements, in general.

Anyway, the key thing here is, if the entire Japanese cast was dropped and replaced with younger stars, it's possible Toei would then push the English side to do the same... However, I'm not totally sure they would, is the thing. I think Funimation would resist dropping their current cast very hard; gone are the days of them severing ties with Ocean to save a few bucks, nowadays they really want to cater to their current fans... The only downside is that even if basically the entire Funi cast died off, they'd probably replace them with soundalikes (or near-enough, anyway) so as to keep the feel somewhat close to what it always has been with their dubs, which likely means we're not going to see the English cast diversify to any particular degree.

So, I think the only way for Funi's cast to diversify is if they try to hire minority castings for any new characters. So far, they're not looking amazing on that front from where I'm standing, but hey, never too late to improve. And if Simpsons leads the whole industry to get better at this, Funi will probably follow suit with everyone else.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Locust » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:02 pm

Speaking for myself as a minority - one of the worst things to feel is that you're a "diversity hire" - no one wants to feel like that, it's quite patronizing and degrading, we simply want to stand on equal footing with the majority - we want the same opportunities and chances
I will give an example - I formerly worked in a very white, very male dominated industry. I worked my butt off to get a job, worked three times as hard as most people. I got hired, then later on someone let slip that "yeah you were basically hired cause we needed more non-white people"
It didn't matter that I was talented, even more so than some of the established people there, to them, all I was, was a statistic, a quota to fill. And it felt awful
It's another form of racism and I don't want anyone else to feel like that

I don't think a Japanese person always has to voice a Japanese character, however - open the door to Japanese VAs outside of Japan. From what I've seen, VA work for Japanese people outside of Japan seems to be a bit of a rarity. I refuse to believe that it's due to a simple lack of Japanese people - just give people the chance for a fair audition and consideration

That really should be the goal

With the recent-ish opening of a Black owned anime studio in Japan, I'm quite excited about the possibility for non-Japanese VAs getting work in Japan. If they have strong grasp of the language and can act - then hell yes, I'm looking forward to seeing new talents
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:07 pm

I'm cool with people of color voicing White characters. I am not cool with White people voicing people of color. This isn't some sort of merit-based society we're living in. Mainstream media is notoriously dominated by cishet White people with minority actors struggling for representation and work. Cree Summer voicing Elmyra in Tiny Toons isn't White Genocide (a fairy tale until itself). The idea of Summer being Yikes ala Mike Henry as Cleveland Brown is ridiculous.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Locust » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:11 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:07 pm
I'm cool with people of color voicing White characters. I am not cool with White people voicing people of color.
This is something I agree with - I should have been a bit more clear with my comment, in that, while I don't mind a non-Japanese person playing a Japanese character, I would much much rather the role be given to another POC
There are just so many talented POC that voice act, it's deeply saddening they don't get a chance to shine - instead it's the same old voices over and over
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:29 pm

On second thought, I think I do have something else to say. I’m actually pretty concerned about the kind of fallout that people like Mike Henry and Hank Azaria leaving their longtime roles is already bringing about. The anti-“SJW” crowd on the Internet is already using this to fuel their argument about why “liberalism is a mental disorder”, and I’m not too crazy about that. They essentially see it as validation for their belief that political correctness has gone too far, and in turn, that’s bound to build up additional resentment for PC culture and liberal activism.

I honestly feel this stuff is going to do more harm than good for the progressive cause in the long term. I think they would’ve been better off letting Azaria and Henry keep their respective roles, while focusing on casting more people of color for other shows/roles.

I understand that people disagree with me, and that’s fine. I’m not the end all be all. I’m just some no-name guy on the Internet. I just felt that I had to give my two cents on the larger narrative surrounding all this.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Locust » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:33 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:29 pm
On second thought, I think I do have something else to say. I’m actually pretty concerned about the kind of fallout that people like Mike Henry and Hank Azaria leaving their longtime roles is already bringing about. The anti-“SJW” crowd on the Internet is already using this to fuel their argument about why “liberalism is a mental disorder”, and I’m not too crazy about that. They essentially see it as validation for their belief that political correctness has gone too far, and in turn, that’s bound to build up additional resentment for PC culture and liberal activism.
I would say these people are already set in their ways, their views

I think they attempt to use situations like this to radicalise others into their beliefs - the only way to combat this is to.... just see it for what it is, complete bullshit and propaganda. Challenge it whenever possible, debunk lies

Friends don't let friends fall for this stuff
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:48 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:29 pm
On second thought, I think I do have something else to say. I’m actually pretty concerned about the kind of fallout that people like Mike Henry and Hank Azaria leaving their longtime roles is already bringing about. The anti-“SJW” crowd on the Internet is already using this to fuel their argument about why “liberalism is a mental disorder”, and I’m not too crazy about that. They essentially see it as validation for their belief that political correctness has gone too far, and in turn, that’s bound to build up additional resentment for PC culture and liberal activism.

I honestly feel this stuff is going to do more harm than good for the progressive cause in the long term. I think they would’ve been better off letting Azaria and Henry keep their respective roles, while focusing on casting more people of color for other shows/roles.

I understand that people disagree with me, and that’s fine. I’m not the end all be all. I’m just some no-name guy on the Internet. I just felt that I had to give my two cents on the larger narrative surrounding all this.
Yeah, this philosophy has literally never helped a minority community. All major progressive moments have won their advancements through violence. Be glad this is just some dumb media changing cast members and not the MLK Riots or Stonewall.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:47 pm

Online reactionaries are going to say "so much for the tolerant left" no matter what any of us do, so ignore them. Their opinions are worthless. Dismantling the institutions that give them sway is far more fortuitous in the longrun than making yourself look good to authoritarians ever will be.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:13 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:47 pm
Online reactionaries are going to say "so much for the tolerant left" no matter what any of us do, so ignore them. Their opinions are worthless. Dismantling the institutions that give them away is far more fortuitous in the longrun than making yourself look good to authoritarians ever will be.
The problem as I see it isn’t so much about looking good to some online reactionaries who make clickbaity YouTube videos with stupid thumbnails. The problem is that these online reactionaries will try to use this stuff to convince otherwise normal people that the PC crowd are a bunch of loonies who just want shame and vilify people they don’t like into losing their jobs, and I think it might actually work on at least some people.

As a side note, the ISWV crowd is having a field day with this.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Locust » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:20 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:13 pm
The problem as I see it isn’t so much about looking good to some online reactionaries who make clickbaity YouTube videos with stupid thumbnails. The problem is that these online reactionaries will try to use this stuff to convince otherwise normal people that the PC crowd are a bunch of loonies who just want shame and vilify people they don’t like into losing their jobs, and I think it might actually work on at least some people.
You're absolutely right that yes, some people are vulnerable to being radicalized - that's why I made the statements before, about looking out for friends, debunking propaganda, and so on

However, I just do not think the march of progress should be halted because of these types of people - that's a culture of fear we mustn't play into

All anyone can do is fight back against such people, against their lies and hate as much as possible
But no one should give into them
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by ABED » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm

I'm more interested in the concrete steps companies can take to making opportunities more readily available to minorities.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:27 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:13 pm
Shaddy wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:47 pm
Online reactionaries are going to say "so much for the tolerant left" no matter what any of us do, so ignore them. Their opinions are worthless. Dismantling the institutions that give them away is far more fortuitous in the longrun than making yourself look good to authoritarians ever will be.
The problem as I see it isn’t so much about looking good to some online reactionaries who make clickbaity YouTube videos with stupid thumbnails. The problem is that these online reactionaries will try to use this stuff to convince otherwise normal people that the PC crowd are a bunch of loonies who just want shame and vilify people they don’t like into losing their jobs, and I think it might actually work on at least some people.

As a side note, the ISWV crowd is having a field day with this.
They did the same thing to MLK but he kept marching and pushing for progress no matter the shit shoveled his way. In the after math of his death major US cities burned for a week until Congress acted.

So, yeah. If anti-social justice warrior goons want to act up and hurt progressives then the progressives will light their fucking cities on fire, figuratively or literally. It's up to them.

Social justice warriors aren't pussies, they're the bitches you want with you in the trenches.
She/Her | Practice self-care.

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Shaddy
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:49 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:13 pm
The problem as I see it isn’t so much about looking good to some online reactionaries who make clickbaity YouTube videos with stupid thumbnails. The problem is that these online reactionaries will try to use this stuff to convince otherwise normal people that the PC crowd are a bunch of loonies who just want shame and vilify people they don’t like into losing their jobs, and I think it might actually work on at least some people.

As a side note, the ISWV crowd is having a field day with this.
What I'm saying is that they will be doing this no matter what, and the people they succeed in convincing will usually be convinced no matter what anyone has actually done. Think of how much of their rhetoric is built on complete lies. If some edgy anti-SJW wants to go looking for an other to demonize, he's going to find them, because "the other" is completely interchangeable target. Even if you're just doing it to shut them up, no concession will ever be enough. Even the slightest change will make something an alt-left beta cuck antifa soros product. The strategy is never to back off, it's to both effect change on a higher level and to reach the right's audience before the right can. If someone is in danger of being radicalized, you create an environment in which that can't happen. Ban fascists from websites, take down propaganda posters, punch neo-nazis in the face.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

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