Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:46 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:34 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:15 pm
I’m not talking about bigots. I’m talking about potential allies. When fighting for any cause, it’s important to avoid leaving a bad impression to the people who are undecided on the matter. Alienating people from any given cause is never a good idea.
What's the compromise between people who think you shouldn't have direct control over the manner in which the media portrays you and your plights? Making minority groups out to be The Bad Guy is not a particularly rational thing to do.

"You know, I was going to support those [various slurs] but then they recast Cleveland and Quagmire's faggot tranny dadd--I'm sorry, I meant 'mommy'--and now I'm going to shit my pants and not change my pants until I get my way!"

Family Guy and The Cleveland Show1 are massive pop culture influences. It should be scrutinized. Speaking toward a concern of mine, how many trans kids--especially trans kids of color--and teens are going to see shit like that and think that they're monsters? This is the sort of thing we need to be preventing in future media and it starts with involving minority groups in their media portrayal. Using different actors in future episodes is the first step.

1The more research I do into these shows the more sick I become. Jesus fuck.
The problem is that by having these longtime voice actors resigning from their roles, and other people apologizing for roles they’ve taken in the past, it gives off this impression that they were forced and shamed into doing so. It paints this idea that the people who advocate for social justice are just a bunch of angry bullies who want to ostracize and ruin the careers of anyone they have a problem with. It’s precisely the kind of image that the actual alt-right bigots like to project when it comes to people they disagree with.

Besides, I think it’s a stretch to say that those shows are massive pop culture influences in 2020. Hardly anyone talks about them anymore, except to talk about how played out and irrelevant they are. FG in particular has been a common Internet punching ever since somewhere around season 6 or 7.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:50 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:08 pm
There's been a big hooplah about the VO of Diane from Bojack Horseman being white while the character of Diane is Vietnamese. I contend that if we were speaking of a character from the Boondocks, where not only is the cast majority black but the show itself is a direct commentary on the experience of black Americans, having a white VO cast for a black character would be inappropriate. However, Diane's race has nothing to do with her character, in fact it might have less than nothing to do with her character. She is ethnically Vietnamese but her family are hardline Boston stereotypes, and the only interaction she has with her culture is a flippant trip to Vietnam where she attempts to connect with her cultural "roots", only to come to the conclusion that the whole idea was completely bunk. Not a single conflict in her character arc is race-related and in fact her race is barely spoken of across six whole seasons. Her voice actress put out a statement saying that she wish she wouldn't have taken the role; I'm gonna go ahead and stick my neck out to assert that statement was made under duress. For emphasis, she was very good as Diane.
I haven't seen the show, but based on your description, it seems that Diane's race does in fact have something to do with her character. Her name, appearance, a trip to Vietnam. Those are all aspects of race and ethnicity.

If the actress was good in the role, then great. But that's not particularly relevant to the issue at hand. I don't believe Brie's statement was necessarily made under duress; her regret for voicing the character seems to be about the racial component and not anything else.
G1Ravage wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:06 pm
Good points as well. Part of the problem is this overwhelming feeling that people (especially white people) need to feel offended on behalf of underrepresented groups. In many instances (Apu included), I see just as many people of color state that they have no issue with it, as I see white people who do have an issue with it. Once it reaches the realm of Internet discussions, certain topics can somehow take on a much larger scale than people actually care about. Twitter does not represent the real world by any margin. Opinions will always vary wildly, and unless you somehow poll every single person on the planet, you'll never know whether the majority are for it, or against it. Whether the matter is even important or not also varies wildly from person to person.

At the end of the day, I personally feel that these gestures by these voice actors to step down from their roles is merely symbolic, further divides people on the issues, and does nothing to help what the true issues are. If Cleveland as a character remains, and is recast with a black actor, how will he be voiced? Will the new actor mimic the old voice? If so, what was the point? If an entirely new voice is used, it'll change the character, and it'll just remind people of this whole mess of a year.
White people taking responsibility for the underrepresentation of minorities is not part of the problem, it's part of the solution. And it's not a matter of "personal opinions". The issue is important regardless of how many people agree with it. That's not going to change just because a certain number of individuals don't understand the issue.

"Symbolic gestures" are important and not necessarily inconsequential. They help shine a light on the true issues and make people take notice. People are going to be divided no matter what. That shouldn't be allowed to stop progress from being made.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:46 pm
The problem is that by having these longtime voice actors resigning from their roles, and other people apologizing for roles they’ve taken in the past, it gives off this impression that they were forced and shamed into doing so. It paints this idea that the people who advocate for social justice are just a bunch of angry bullies who want to ostracize and ruin the careers of anyone they have a problem with. It’s precisely the kind of image that the actual alt-right bigots like to project when it comes to people they disagree with.
1. You have to be not-smart to think they were forced into it.
2. You have to be a big asshole to think doing the most base, easy thing like giving up a role so as to insure better representation is 'bullying'.
3. Stop trying to thrust the onus for cishet, abled White peoples' bullshit onto queer, disabled people of color.
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:46 pm
Besides, I think it’s a stretch to say that those shows are massive pop culture influences in 2020. Hardly anyone talks about them anymore, except to talk about how played out and irrelevant they are. FG in particular has been a common Internet punching ever since somewhere around season 6 or 7.
Running in syndication in perpetuity, still receiving new seasons on mainstream networks. This shit is getting out there and we must be eternally critical of art, especially commercial media art.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:10 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:50 pm
I haven't seen the show, but based on your description, it seems that Diane's race does in fact have something to do with her character. Her name, appearance, a trip to Vietnam. Those are all aspects of race and ethnicity.
I thoroughly explain how race does not factor into Diane's character, and your conclusion - having never seen the show - is that race factors into her character?
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:52 am

I think a true Vietnamese American could have had a whole nother perspective if they had hired one.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:32 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:10 am
MyVisionity wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:50 pm
I haven't seen the show, but based on your description, it seems that Diane's race does in fact have something to do with her character. Her name, appearance, a trip to Vietnam. Those are all aspects of race and ethnicity.
I thoroughly explain how race does not factor into Diane's character, and your conclusion - having never seen the show - is that race factors into her character?
Yes. Based solely off of what you wrote. At first you said race had nothing to do with her character. But your explanation shows that race actually did have something to do with her character.

Either way, race will always be a factor for a fictional character, regardless of the extent. Especially when the character is a minority.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:54 am

I feel like I just got done complaining about people who have no sense of nuance/discretion when it comes to topics like these.

In true Murphy's Law fashion though, not only was this a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I'm also being second-guessed by people who haven't even viewed the source material.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:39 am

Because the source material is made by white people that dont really know how a REAL Vietnamese American would feel. And keep in mind that I AGREE with you that there was no touch of race. But sadly, there are other races and they are very different.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by FireFly » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:35 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 pm

3. Stop trying to thrust the onus for cishet, abled White peoples' bullshit onto queer, disabled people of color.
Why do you keep using "cishet" as your go-to word for people who aren't trans? If "tranny" is to be discouraged for being a transphobic word, then let's not be hypocritical and antagonize people who aren't like us, whether they're the majority or not. I mean, I won't be butthurt if mod let you keep using that word, but I find it a teensy bit hypocritical how someone who's vocally opposed to bigotry and use of offensive terms calls cis people "cishet."

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Locust » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:48 am

FireFly wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:35 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 pm

3. Stop trying to thrust the onus for cishet, abled White peoples' bullshit onto queer, disabled people of color.
Why do you keep using "cishet" as your go-to word for people who aren't trans? If "tranny" is to be discouraged for being a transphobic word, then let's not be hypocritical and antagonize people who aren't like us, whether they're the majority or not. I mean, I won't be butthurt if mod let you keep using that word, but I find it a teensy bit hypocritical how someone who's vocally opposed to bigotry and use of offensive terms calls cis people "cishet."
What? Cishet is just short for cisgender heterosexual?
Cishet isn't a slur, it's just a descriptor, as much as white, trans, gay, etc is

I'm a bit confused, how is using it antagonizing?
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:01 am

FireFly wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:35 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 pm

3. Stop trying to thrust the onus for cishet, abled White peoples' bullshit onto queer, disabled people of color.
Why do you keep using "cishet" as your go-to word for people who aren't trans? If "tranny" is to be discouraged for being a transphobic word, then let's not be hypocritical and antagonize people who aren't like us, whether they're the majority or not. I mean, I won't be butthurt if mod let you keep using that word, but I find it a teensy bit hypocritical how someone who's vocally opposed to bigotry and use of offensive terms calls cis people "cishet."
As Locust said, cishet literally refers to cisgender and heterosexual people. That's all. It's like me getting upset for being called transbi. 😆


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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by FireFly » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:19 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:01 am
FireFly wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:35 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:23 pm

3. Stop trying to thrust the onus for cishet, abled White peoples' bullshit onto queer, disabled people of color.
Why do you keep using "cishet" as your go-to word for people who aren't trans? If "tranny" is to be discouraged for being a transphobic word, then let's not be hypocritical and antagonize people who aren't like us, whether they're the majority or not. I mean, I won't be butthurt if mod let you keep using that word, but I find it a teensy bit hypocritical how someone who's vocally opposed to bigotry and use of offensive terms calls cis people "cishet."
As Locust said, cishet literally refers to cisgender and heterosexual people. That's all. It's like me getting upset for being called transbi. 😆


(Nobody call me tranny, please).
As a heterosexual male who doesn't frequent social media outside of Facebook, I thought "cishet" was some sort of heterophobic slur since it sounds like "cis-shit." I wasn't really upset about it, it just sounded weird since you act like an advocate for social justice and I thought it was the equivalent of me saying "transhet" or tranny or whatever.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:43 am

How does one even go about concluding what an actor’s sexuality is, unless they explicitly say so?

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:02 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:43 am
How does one even go about concluding what an actor’s sexuality is, unless they explicitly say so?
"Hey [name], this is a role for a cisgender woman-loving-woman, are you a woman-loving-woman?"

"Nope [name], I'm straight as a fiddle!"

"Oof, yeah, sorry [name], reads a bit insulting to cast a cishet as a WLW, goin' to need to pass on you this time. Maybe we can get you for a different role, though!"

"Yikes [name], you're cool! I really shouldn't be infringing on 'em like that!!"
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:10 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:02 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:43 am
How does one even go about concluding what an actor’s sexuality is, unless they explicitly say so?
"Hey [name], this is a role for a cisgender woman-loving-woman, are you a woman-loving-woman?"

"Nope [name], I'm straight as a fiddle!"

"Oof, yeah, sorry [name], reads a bit insulting to cast a cishet as a WLW, goin' to need to pass on you this time. Maybe we can get you for a different role, though!"

"Yikes [name], you're cool! I really shouldn't be infringing on 'em like that!!"
No, I mean, how are people like us who have never met any of these actors supposed to know if they’re queer or not?

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:14 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:10 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:02 am
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:43 am
How does one even go about concluding what an actor’s sexuality is, unless they explicitly say so?
"Hey [name], this is a role for a cisgender woman-loving-woman, are you a woman-loving-woman?"

"Nope [name], I'm straight as a fiddle!"

"Oof, yeah, sorry [name], reads a bit insulting to cast a cishet as a WLW, goin' to need to pass on you this time. Maybe we can get you for a different role, though!"

"Yikes [name], you're cool! I really shouldn't be infringing on 'em like that!!"
No, I mean, how are people like us who have never met any of these actors supposed to know if they’re queer or not?
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:24 am

I'm gonna have to say a big ol' "nah" on this actor's sexuality thing. While the race topic I can agree with more or less, I don't think the actor's sexuality should have any bearing on their performance.

Neil Patrick Harris sometimes plays gay guys, but he also convincingly plays a lotta straight guys, even though he's ultra gay. I don't believe he should be pigeonholed based on his sexuality. It's acting.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:38 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:24 am
I'm gonna have to say a big ol' "nah" on this actor's sexuality thing. While the race topic I can agree with more or less, I don't think the actor's sexuality should have any bearing on their performance.

Neil Patrick Harris sometimes plays gay guys, but he also convincingly plays a lotta straight guys, even though he's ultra gay. I don't believe he should be pigeonholed based on his sexuality. It's acting.
Shit goes up the chain of command, not down. Neil Patrick Harris wants to play a cishet guy? Cool beans.

That being said, fuck Neil Patrick Harris for not being vocally upset about the transphobic jokes in How I Met Your Mother. He should be using his privilege to defend those more marginalized than him.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:07 pm

For what it's worth, more casting directors are trying to take sexual identity into account for the sake of getting a better performance. One particular production for a dub noted in the audition scripts for a character that the character identifies as a non-binary homosexual, and that they would prefer an actor who could identify with that. They did say "prefer," not "will only accept,' though.

Because they legally can't.

I don't know how different it is from state to state, but at least in the state of California, one of the road blocks towards authentic casting is a law stating that employers are not allowed to ask about an employee or job applicant's race or sexual identity. It was intended as a way to prevent discrimination in hiring practices, which is to say, preventing an employer from looking at an applicant and going "He's gay/black/a minority I otherwise don't like? Pfft, OK, next." It created a roadblock in the specific context of authentic ethnic and sexual identity casting, though.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:38 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:24 am
I'm gonna have to say a big ol' "nah" on this actor's sexuality thing. While the race topic I can agree with more or less, I don't think the actor's sexuality should have any bearing on their performance.

Neil Patrick Harris sometimes plays gay guys, but he also convincingly plays a lotta straight guys, even though he's ultra gay. I don't believe he should be pigeonholed based on his sexuality. It's acting.
Shit goes up the chain of command, not down. Neil Patrick Harris wants to play a cishet guy? Cool beans.

That being said, fuck Neil Patrick Harris for not being vocally upset about the transphobic jokes in How I Met Your Mother. He should be using his privilege to defend those more marginalized than him.
Why the double standard, though? I don't see how it's "punching" up or down the chain of command if an actor wants to play a role that doesn't reflect their actual sexuality. Surely if it's bad for a straight man to play a gay man, it's equally bad for a gay man to be playing a straight man?

Yeah, even as a fan of HIMYM, I can freely admit there was a lot of dodgy shit. It wouldn't hurt for Neil to apologise for some of that, though I'd blame the writers for it first and foremost. Actors are cattle after all.
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