Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:35 pm

I don’t see why Neil Patrick Harris would need to apologize for something he didn’t even write.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 pm
Why the double standard, though? I don't see how it's "punching" up or down the chain of command if an actor wants to play a role that doesn't reflect their actual sexuality. Surely if it's bad for a straight man to play a gay man, it's equally bad for a gay man to be playing a straight man?
Cishet men aren't the ones being called faggot, tranny and getting murdered on a daily basis for their gender and sexuality. They're not the ones being denied influence in their own representation, in part because they have nothing to actually represent. There's no double standard because we don't live in a meritocracy, we in a world where minority groups primarily scrape along in life, unless they're financially privileged.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 pm
Yeah, even as a fan of HIMYM, I can freely admit there was a lot of dodgy shit. It wouldn't hurt for Neil to apologise for some of that, though I'd blame the writers for it first and foremost. Actors are cattle after all.
It really would not have been unacceptable to expect a hugely popular and successful member of the LGBTQIA+ community to openly speak out about the series treatment of trans women. Harris, the writer, the director and the executives should be called out because they all ultimately play a part. For Harris to idly sit by while his hugely popular show shames trans women (and tangentially, cishet men) is worthy of criticism.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:42 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 pm
Why the double standard, though? I don't see how it's "punching" up or down the chain of command if an actor wants to play a role that doesn't reflect their actual sexuality. Surely if it's bad for a straight man to play a gay man, it's equally bad for a gay man to be playing a straight man?
Cishet men aren't the ones being called faggot, tranny and getting murdered on a daily basis for their gender and sexuality. They're not the ones being denied influence in their own representation, in part because they have nothing to actually represent. There's no double standard because we don't live in a meritocracy, we in a world where minority groups primarily scrape along in life, unless they're financially privileged.
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:22 pm
Yeah, even as a fan of HIMYM, I can freely admit there was a lot of dodgy shit. It wouldn't hurt for Neil to apologise for some of that, though I'd blame the writers for it first and foremost. Actors are cattle after all.
It really would not have been unacceptable to expect a hugely popular and successful member of the LGBTQIA+ community to openly speak out about the series treatment of trans women. Harris, the writer, the director and the executives should be called out because they all ultimately play a part. For Harris to idly sit by while his hugely popular show shames trans women (and tangentially, cishet men) is worthy of criticism.
Fair point about representation. I would certainly be all for more authentic queer representation in queer roles, but I'm not all for it being rigorously enforced. If an otherwise straight-as-plywood white dude always dreams of expressing himself by playing an LGBT character, I don't think anything should seriously stop him. Would he be free from criticism? Absolutely not!

I'd imagine that Harris's thought process is that his character in the show was an unrepentant misogynist sleaze, so I guess he doesn't feel guilty about it. He was paid to perform a role that other people wrote and made a lot of money, so at worst he doesn't even care. Not saying it's right, but that's probably why he doesn't.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:16 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:42 pm
Fair point about representation. I would certainly be all for more authentic queer representation in queer roles, but I'm not all for it being rigorously enforced. If an otherwise straight-as-plywood white dude always dreams of expressing himself by playing an LGBT character, I don't think anything should seriously stop him. Would he be free from criticism? Absolutely not!

I'd imagine that Harris's thought process is that his character in the show was an unrepentant misogynist sleaze, so I guess he doesn't feel guilty about it. He was paid to perform a role that other people wrote and made a lot of money, so at worst he doesn't even care. Not saying it's right, but that's probably why he doesn't.
I know you're trying not to be confrontational and I mean this in only the most sincere manner possible: this is still really problematic. It fetishizes queer folks and makes our lived experiences into some sort of plaything of the privileged. Cis people see us on screen and they see other cishet people pretending (very poorly) to be queer and it becomes "all the queer people I know are from the cishet people I see playing them on screen!" I definitely suggest watching Disclosure on Netflix for a broader look at this phenomenon. We even get this bullshit from other queer people, like Matt Bomer tastelessly playing a trans woman (who, surprise, surprise, is a sex worker!) in Anything. A cisgay man playing a trans woman is just feeds into the societal perception of trans women being gay men in dresses trying to trap straight men into sex.

Similarly, we see movies like Chuck & Larry where two cishet guys get pretend to be in love to get married. It's ridiculous representation and continually makes light of queer people (to say nothing of other queerphobic jokes in other Sandler films).
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:12 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:16 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:42 pm
Fair point about representation. I would certainly be all for more authentic queer representation in queer roles, but I'm not all for it being rigorously enforced. If an otherwise straight-as-plywood white dude always dreams of expressing himself by playing an LGBT character, I don't think anything should seriously stop him. Would he be free from criticism? Absolutely not!

I'd imagine that Harris's thought process is that his character in the show was an unrepentant misogynist sleaze, so I guess he doesn't feel guilty about it. He was paid to perform a role that other people wrote and made a lot of money, so at worst he doesn't even care. Not saying it's right, but that's probably why he doesn't.
I know you're trying not to be confrontational and I mean this in only the most sincere manner possible: this is still really problematic. It fetishizes queer folks and makes our lived experiences into some sort of plaything of the privileged. Cis people see us on screen and they see other cishet people pretending (very poorly) to be queer and it becomes "all the queer people I know are from the cishet people I see playing them on screen!" I definitely suggest watching Disclosure on Netflix for a broader look at this phenomenon. We even get this bullshit from other queer people, like Matt Bomer tastelessly playing a trans woman (who, surprise, surprise, is a sex worker!) in Anything. A cisgay man playing a trans woman is just feeds into the societal perception of trans women being gay men in dresses trying to trap straight men into sex.

Similarly, we see movies like Chuck & Larry where two cishet guys get pretend to be in love to get married. It's ridiculous representation and continually makes light of queer people (to say nothing of other queerphobic jokes in other Sandler films).
Thanks for keeping it real. I was studying LGBT cultures for uni so I'll definitely check that doco out. However, it's worth addressing the other point someone else made which was, how do you actually determine whether or not an actor are the sexuality they say they are? How do you enforce that they only play certain roles?

I think the only real solution is to get more trans artists and performers onto the big stages in mainstream media to challenge the dodgy representations, which I'm down for. Obviously easier said than done though cause Hollywood is still run by billionaires who only pretend to give a shit for social media clout, but yeah. I'd say the biggest fetishisation of trans cultures is the idea that they can only exist in underground or Bohemia, which also has to be challenged.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:26 pm

I guess I’ll mention as a side note that the voice actress for She-Ra in the recent reboot is married to a man, even though that version of the character is gay. The showrunner is a lesbian, though.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:46 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:12 pm
However, it's worth addressing the other point someone else made which was, how do you actually determine whether or not an actor are the sexuality they say they are? How do you enforce that they only play certain roles?
As I mentioned a few posts back, both of those situations are technically illegal. At least in the state of California. The whole idea behind not being allowed to ask about someone's sexual orientation or race as a matter of law was intended as a way of protecting said minorities, because that way nobody could fire--or refuse to hire--them based on those. It creates a difficult situation for casting, though, because in that case they'd be trying to find that out in the interest of authentic casting.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:20 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:46 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:12 pm
However, it's worth addressing the other point someone else made which was, how do you actually determine whether or not an actor are the sexuality they say they are? How do you enforce that they only play certain roles?
As I mentioned a few posts back, both of those situations are technically illegal. At least in the state of California. The whole idea behind not being allowed to ask about someone's sexual orientation or race as a matter of law was intended as a way of protecting said minorities, because that way nobody could fire--or refuse to hire--them based on those. It creates a difficult situation for casting, though, because in that case they'd be trying to find that out in the interest of authentic casting.
It was being rhetorical to be honest, but yeah, exactly my point. Even if it's not illegal everywhere, it's still not a simple matter.

The thing is, creating an authentic performance... I don't wanna be that guy, but that is just good acting. An actor shouldn't have to share their character's circumstances. Of course it can help, and I support trans actors getting into the industry to potentially improve their representation in media. Trans actors have been continually dealt shite cards by being pigeonholed as extras or hooker roles. But if a non-trans actor really wants to tackle a particular role, I believe that they should be able to, though of course they should play it respectfully.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:40 pm

A lot of actors are openly LGBTQIA+ and these things do get around show business. It's not like crew are lost at sea. The resources are there, it's part of why trans actors being passed up for cis actors drives us crazy. First you ignore us, then you cast some rich, White cis motherfucker as the same fucking stereotypes: balding old men in dresses who aren't on HRT or started HRT super-late in life or Buffalo Bill and Norman Bates. Then, if they do cast a trans actress it's as a dead hooker (transphobic jokes galore) or somebody whose dying from their HRT.

I thank the universe every day that Dragon Ball doesn't have an transphobia in it--insofar as I can remember off the top of my head--because with the way Blue was turned into a fucking pedophile in the cartoon drives me up the wall.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:40 pm
A lot of actors are openly LGBTQIA+ and these things do get around show business. It's not like crew are lost at sea. The resources are there, it's part of why trans actors being passed up for cis actors drives us crazy. First you ignore us, then you cast some rich, White cis motherfucker as the same fucking stereotypes: balding old men in dresses who aren't on HRT or started HRT super-late in life or Buffalo Bill and Norman Bates. Then, if they do cast a trans actress it's as a dead hooker (transphobic jokes galore) or somebody whose dying from their HRT.

I thank the universe every day that Dragon Ball doesn't have an transphobia in it--insofar as I can remember off the top of my head--because with the way Blue was turned into a fucking pedophile in the cartoon drives me up the wall.
The balding-old-white-man-who-wears-dresses' experience is valuable. The post-op-trans-woman-since-24's experience is valuable. It's wrong that the latter is painfully underrepresented in the mainstream. But I still believe both of these artistic expressions should both be allowed to be seen or heard on equal footing.

General Blue's characterisation holds an ironic fascination. Toriyama already blatantly coded him as an SA browncoat in all but name, complete with the Aryan look and homosexual tendencies stereotypically associated with their ranks under Ernst Rohm, who was openly gay. He is shown to have superior physical and mental capacities that allow him to perform psychokinetic feats. And the anime decided to take it a step further by making him a nonce on top of that, for the sake of a cheap gag. I'm surprised this shit isn't talked about more.
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:38 pm

I feel neglected here! I know I didnt have the most controversial take but no one has said anything about my comment about Vietnamese Americans.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:38 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:10 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:40 pm
A lot of actors are openly LGBTQIA+ and these things do get around show business. It's not like crew are lost at sea. The resources are there, it's part of why trans actors being passed up for cis actors drives us crazy. First you ignore us, then you cast some rich, White cis motherfucker as the same fucking stereotypes: balding old men in dresses who aren't on HRT or started HRT super-late in life or Buffalo Bill and Norman Bates. Then, if they do cast a trans actress it's as a dead hooker (transphobic jokes galore) or somebody whose dying from their HRT.

I thank the universe every day that Dragon Ball doesn't have an transphobia in it--insofar as I can remember off the top of my head--because with the way Blue was turned into a fucking pedophile in the cartoon drives me up the wall.
The balding-old-white-man-who-wears-dresses' experience is valuable. The post-op-trans-woman-since-24's experience is valuable. It's wrong that the latter is painfully underrepresented in the mainstream. But I still believe both of these artistic expressions should both be allowed to be seen or heard on equal footing.

General Blue's characterisation holds an ironic fascination. Toriyama already blatantly coded him as an SA browncoat in all but name, complete with the Aryan look and homosexual tendencies stereotypically associated with their ranks under Ernst Rohm, who was openly gay. He is shown to have superior physical and mental capacities that allow him to perform psychokinetic feats. And the anime decided to take it a step further by making him a nonce on top of that, for the sake of a cheap gag. I'm surprised this shit isn't talked about more.
I believe there have been at least a couple of threads on here regarding Toei’s decision to make General Blue a pedophile, with most people agreeing that it was in poor taste, and hasn’t aged well at all.

As for why it isn’t talked about more often, I guess part of that is due to the relative obscurity that the OG anime has compared to DBZ.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Jord » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:50 am

Minorities filling minorities could become a very interesting slope. Of course, if for example Caucasian people step away from performing black characters due to authenticity etc I would expect the same from the minorities. We can't have a double standard here, no matter how talented the actor is. We need accurate representation in all parts.
We can't have black people perform the parts of Caucasian or Asian characters of have transgender people perform non-transgender parts. That would be really insensitive and a huge double standard.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:46 am

eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:43 am
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/26/entertai ... index.html
I know it's happening to quite a few shows.
I feel this is an interesting topic in regards to anime and the lack of Asian voice actors for mostly Asian characters. Do you think this will change the anime, if not Dragon Ball is cast in the future (or maybe even recasts)? This is reminded me of the Dragon Ball Evolution Goku and Bulma controversy, but that never seeped into the anime side of things.

Edit: I correct myself, the Bulma casting thing was about the actress herself (her ability to do the role justice), not about her race.

Edit 2: This is a context update. minority representation is reflected on the current news in regards to white VA's dropping (or regretting) playing non-white roles in animation and it's reflection in the Anime industry. This does not mean that I think only minority VA's should solely stick to minority characters.
Live action, or? I personally believe it's all about whos voice fits the character and can accurately capture the character almost just like the original VA, in terms of dubs of course.

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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:13 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:23 pm
I’ve frankly never even seen this discussion being applied to anime dubs until this very thread. There have been numerous complaints about the FUNimation voice cast over the years, but I’ve certainly never heard anyone argue that Sean Schemmel shouldn’t voice Goku because he’s white. Granted, it wouldn’t surprise me if we start hearing random people on Twitter arguing for this, because, to be blunt, the people on that platform are always looking for something to rail about these days.

Just so we’re clear, I’m all for hiring more Asian voice actors, but I don’t know if it’d be reasonable to suggest that the people who have been voicing their respective anime characters for years should be required to step down from those specific roles, just because they aren’t Asian. Still, I’m not Asian, so I suppose my thoughts on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt.
Plus Japan and China actually prefer it when white people are cast in roles traditionally afforded to Asians, like Scarlet Johanson being cast in the lead in that Ghost in the Shell movie(which I thought was underrated) that wasn't Hollywood talking, that was the Japanese production company talking, as they outright said the film would not be getting made if there was not a white actress in the lead role(Which has it's own set of problems) plus the creator of the anime said he was fine with her being cast as the lead and it was a similar deal with Tilda Swinton playing The Ancient One in Dr. Strange-China insisted that character be played by a white woman or they wouldn't allow filming(they are also the reason why the Mandarin's character was drastically changed for Iron Man 3, as his original character in the comics was basically every single negative "Yellow Peril" stereotype known to man). There is definitely some truth to the notion that sometimes white people are more offended on behalf of minorities then said minorities themselves are, I hardly saw any Asian people whatsoever complain about the casting in Ghost in the Shell, it was almost entirely white people(and a few black folks here and there) I saw complaining about it.

I know there's been discussion that VAs like Harry Shearer will no longer be voicing black characters on shows like The Simpsons, i'm hoping this will extend to the female characters of Linda and Tina on Bob's Burgers no longer being voiced by men, I seriously do not see a good reason why those characters NEED to be voiced by dudes as it adds nothing to their characters and only gets in the way of me enjoying the show.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:29 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:06 pm

It seems like there's much to consider racially speaking, when so many manga/anime characters tend to be drawn with Caucasian features to begin with, regardless of any intended ethnicity. There's also the differences between anime that take place in a fantasy world versus anime that take place in the real world.

As for the actors involved, I think the issue may be less of whether non-Asian actors should be cast and more about hiring a larger number of Asian talent.
I understand that. I’ve got no problem with more people of color getting roles. I just don’t think that people like Hank Azaria and Mike Henry dropping out of their roles really accomplished much of anything, other than inciting this victim mentality among the people I’ve already mentioned. Besides, neither Family Guy nor The Simpsons are the least bit relevant anymore, and I doubt there are very many black actors who are clamoring for the chance to voice Cleveland.

Apart from that, I also found Allison Brie apologizing for voicing a Vietnamese character on Bojack Horseman to be ridiculous for a variety of reasons. For starters, that show already ended, so unless she plans on giving up all the money she earned from the show, it’s a completely meaningless gesture.
Strongly disagree, I think it's a fine gesture that shows she acknowledges that it's problematic in nature. The shows are definitely still relevant as they still pull in decent ratings on FOX and i'm genuinely looking forward to hearing Cleveland, Carl, Lou and Dr Hibbert(And maybe Apu) voiced by new actors, i've already gotten used to Martin's new voice so i'm sure I can do the same for those characters.

Personally i'm glad Missy is getting a new VA on Big Mouth as I always thought her voice was too "Breathy" so it'll be nice to hear a more confident voice come out of her.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:48 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:40 pm
I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I’m inclined to think that the decision to pull Gone with the Wind was more of a marketing stunt than anything else. Digital sales for the movie went up through the roof after it was pulled from HBO Max, and I certainly don’t recall there having been much of any outrage against the movie being on the service in the first place.
Without having been in the HBO offices, I can't say for sure. They undoubtedly got some marketing benefit from it, but I think controversy in general does that, whether its intended or not. Michael Jackson's music was taken off a lot of radio stations after his most recent pedophile accusations, but the actual sales of it went up. Same thing with R. Kelly. Controversey brings something to the forefront of our minds, and its not just limited to the negative accusations, but also to whatever good memories we may have associated with it.

Personally, I think that, while there may not have been much outrage about Gone With The Wind being on the service, that was before more recent events with the BLM movement, which is causing us to do a lot of reflection on stuff that we previously weren't doing much reflection on.
I didn't notice Jackson's music getting pulled from radio stations, at least not where I live in the U.S., i've only ever heard of overseas radio stations deciding not to play his music, even right after that frankly pathetic excuse for a documentary came out(yeah I think MJ is 100% innocent, just laying that out there right now, and frankly i'm disgusted at the Simpsons creators for removing the MJ episode yet not removing any the episodes that featured actual white sexual harassers in them like Ted Nugent and Julian Assange, talk about a double-standard) he hasn't been almost completely erased from the airwaves like R Kelly has.

Also i'm beyond irritated at all the episodes of TV shows featuring blackface removed(even if it's acknowledged that it's problematic like Always Sunny did) and I actually wound up panic-buying all of those banned episodes on Amazon Prime before they took them down like other streaming services did(and I bought the complete series of 30 Rock on DVD) and with Scrubs I had to purchase the whole season 5 on Google Play(usually you can buy individual episodes on Google Play, but when an episode gets pulled they typically label that episode "season only"-as in you can only access the episode by buying the entire season, but they also lock you out of buying the season to prevent you from seeing the episode period-thankfully they seemingly forgot to do that with Scrubs season 5, as though I could not purchase the individual episodes, they did let me buy the whole season and so I did manage to get my hands on the banned episodes after all, would've normally just bought the DVD but I couldn't find the season 5 DVD anywhere and the complete series set was a bit too pricey for me at the moment). Frankly I don't see the point as it's not something that makes either side happy-progressives see it as a meaningless and pointless gesture that does nothing to address the lack of minority voices in writers rooms in many shows and the right-wingers just see it as another example of "Cancel culture". I guess NBC and others see removing some episodes as easier then actually hiring some damn BIPOC writers, sad really.
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:00 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:38 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:14 pm
I don't argue that minority actors can't play, say, White actors. That's punching up if anything. I think it is concerning when you're casting Phil LaMarr as Samurai Jack, though, unless I'm missing something about the character and performer here.

I know as a trans person I would be upset if a cis person were to voice a trans character. Hell, the main character in Yuu Yuu Hakusho sexually assaults a trans woman (played by cis actress Mayama Ako) and misgenders her. Would that kind of bullshit be allowed if the character wasn't played by a cis person? What if we applied that question to other types of minorities?
It's absolutely a question we should be asking minorities, and we should listen to their answers. Some of their answers can be surprising, though. Personally, as a white guy, I'm not comfortable with the existence of a baseball team named the Redskins and figured that most Native Americans would find that horribly offensive...but by many accounts, most actual Native Americans don't care. I also thought the term "African American" was more respectful than "black," but I'm hearing more and more that "black" is preferable for numerous reasons (not the least of which is that not all black people identify as being African in origin).

In other words, it's a continued dialogue we should be having, rather than going off of assumptions of what they do and don't find offensive. If most don't find something offensive, that's also something we need to keep in mind. So, as someone who hasn't watched the show, I can't say whether Asians have found it offensive that a black man plays Samurai Jack--maybe they do, maybe they don't--but I'm more than willing to listen to them about that if they want to have the conversation, because listening and having a dialogue are probably the two most immediately appropriate things that white people can do at this point in our history.
It depends on the person, much like anything else. I can't read the article because of a paywall l (never seen that on WaPo before). My mom is half-indigenous and I grew up being told to not let anyone call me an "Indian". I don't like being called it and it's geographically wrong. There are those that don't mind it at all. I don't like "Native American" either cause it usually gets followed with the snarky comment "Arent we all Native Americans?" I'm also usually a bit suspicious about Indigenous issues in the media because 98% of the time no one cares about us, we're often forgotten in most debates unless it proves some point about someone else battle. Most of my Indigenous friends absolutely hate mascots using Indigenous names, slurs and stereotypes but I have seen other Indigenous people not care or embrace it and I know groups who got to successfully change names of lakes back to their pre-colonial names, to me 9/10 seems a little off.
Yeah I heard a lot of Indians say that they didn't get what the big deal about the whole Apu controversy was and had no problem with Hank Azaria voicing him, some hated the documentary about the whole thing(I kind of thought it was a waste of time myself, since the decision to stop giving Apu speaking roles on the show had already been made way back in 2016, a whole year before the documentary had come out):https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/ ... d-shallow/
JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:30 am
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:46 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:04 pm


This is how cisgender people wind up play trans characters, telling our stories and getting accolades--while presenting as their own gender--and being seen and associated with roles.

Your view on the subject has to be a bit more substantial than "it's all about THE ART, maaaaaaaan"
Actors... faking being people they aren't? FOR MONEY? Tell me you are lying and there are not such horrible people in the world!
Yeah, it's the sort of bullshit that leads to trans people not being taken seriously. Media representation is a continual feedback loop that harms the trans people who grow up consuming it and the cisgender people whom hold the systemic advantages over trans people. Cis people see trans characters continually played by cis people--rather than actual trans people who don't have to fake the transness of their performances--and it's going to breed the idea that trans people are pretend, not a full-time thing that exist. Chris Sarandon, John Lithgow, Cillian Murphy, Eddie Redmayne, Hillary Swank: all cis actors who won Academy Awards to trans roles. The audience sees them on screen pretend to be trans, get raped and then go up on the big stage in their usual gender expression to accept big awards and praise. Meanwhile, you have trans actors and actresses passed up for these roles for being too gorgeous, too much like their gender. Fuck if we let the mainstream audiences know that trans people can be attractive, too. Wouldn't want cishet men thinking they're faggots for being attracted to women with dicks!! This is to say nothing of how media portrays us as only being sex workers (sex work is legitimate work that should be legalized, by the way), serial killers, rape-victims or the butt of jokes. Hell, what about all the young trans people who grow up on horrible shit like in Ace Venture: Pet Detective, a movie that teaches people that the only appropriate response to kissing a trans woman is to vomit? That people need to disclose their genitals or else they're deceivers? Now, let's apply that other types of minorities and see how disgusting that sounds (it's really disgusting).

The system's treatment of any kind of minority worker or representation should always be scrutinized because the system is not actually controlled by those minorities.
I'm definitely all for more trans representation in films and TV myself, though speaking for myself I grew up watching Ace Ventura as a kid and it certainly didn't give me a negative view on trans people(quite the opposite actually, it ironically led to me discovering my attraction to trans woman) I saw Ace vomiting as just him being immature and not as a personal attack on trans people, I fully acknowledge that film has some problematic stuff in it but I can still enjoy it in spite of that.

And yes Japan is pretty ass-backwards about it's treatment of trans people, that definitely explains stuff like all the deadnaming in the video game Deadly Premonition 2 and Swery not seeing the issue with it.

Also I should point out that Laura Bailey had no clue that Nadine was going to be black when she voiced her, as that was something that Naughty Dog changed later on in production, so I don't hold that against her and honestly her accent was good enough to fool me(I also thought Iggy Azalea was black when I first heard her on the radio).
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JulieYBM
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:05 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:13 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:23 pm
I’ve frankly never even seen this discussion being applied to anime dubs until this very thread. There have been numerous complaints about the FUNimation voice cast over the years, but I’ve certainly never heard anyone argue that Sean Schemmel shouldn’t voice Goku because he’s white. Granted, it wouldn’t surprise me if we start hearing random people on Twitter arguing for this, because, to be blunt, the people on that platform are always looking for something to rail about these days.

Just so we’re clear, I’m all for hiring more Asian voice actors, but I don’t know if it’d be reasonable to suggest that the people who have been voicing their respective anime characters for years should be required to step down from those specific roles, just because they aren’t Asian. Still, I’m not Asian, so I suppose my thoughts on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt.
Plus Japan and China actually prefer it when white people are cast in roles traditionally afforded to Asians, like Scarlet Johanson being cast in the lead in that Ghost in the Shell movie(which I thought was underrated) that wasn't Hollywood talking, that was the Japanese production company talking, as they outright said the film would not be getting made if there was not a white actress in the lead role(Which has it's own set of problems) plus the creator of the anime said he was fine with her being cast as the lead and it was a similar deal with Tilda Swinton playing The Ancient One in Dr. Strange-China insisted that character be played by a white woman or they wouldn't allow filming(they are also the reason why the Mandarin's character was drastically changed for Iron Man 3, as his original character in the comics was basically every single negative "Yellow Peril" stereotype known to man). There is definitely some truth to the notion that sometimes white people are more offended on behalf of minorities then said minorities themselves are, I hardly saw any Asian people whatsoever complain about the casting in Ghost in the Shell, it was almost entirely white people(and a few black folks here and there) I saw complaining about it.

I know there's been discussion that VAs like Harry Shearer will no longer be voicing black characters on shows like The Simpsons, i'm hoping this will extend to the female characters of Linda and Tina on Bob's Burgers no longer being voiced by men, I seriously do not see a good reason why those characters NEED to be voiced by dudes as it adds nothing to their characters and only gets in the way of me enjoying the show.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:29 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:06 pm

It seems like there's much to consider racially speaking, when so many manga/anime characters tend to be drawn with Caucasian features to begin with, regardless of any intended ethnicity. There's also the differences between anime that take place in a fantasy world versus anime that take place in the real world.

As for the actors involved, I think the issue may be less of whether non-Asian actors should be cast and more about hiring a larger number of Asian talent.
I understand that. I’ve got no problem with more people of color getting roles. I just don’t think that people like Hank Azaria and Mike Henry dropping out of their roles really accomplished much of anything, other than inciting this victim mentality among the people I’ve already mentioned. Besides, neither Family Guy nor The Simpsons are the least bit relevant anymore, and I doubt there are very many black actors who are clamoring for the chance to voice Cleveland.

Apart from that, I also found Allison Brie apologizing for voicing a Vietnamese character on Bojack Horseman to be ridiculous for a variety of reasons. For starters, that show already ended, so unless she plans on giving up all the money she earned from the show, it’s a completely meaningless gesture.
Strongly disagree, I think it's a fine gesture that shows she acknowledges that it's problematic in nature. The shows are definitely still relevant as they still pull in decent ratings on FOX and i'm genuinely looking forward to hearing Cleveland, Carl, Lou and Dr Hibbert(And maybe Apu) voiced by new actors, i've already gotten used to Martin's new voice so i'm sure I can do the same for those characters.

Personally i'm glad Missy is getting a new VA on Big Mouth as I always thought her voice was too "Breathy" so it'll be nice to hear a more confident voice come out of her.
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:48 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:40 pm
I’m not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I’m inclined to think that the decision to pull Gone with the Wind was more of a marketing stunt than anything else. Digital sales for the movie went up through the roof after it was pulled from HBO Max, and I certainly don’t recall there having been much of any outrage against the movie being on the service in the first place.
Without having been in the HBO offices, I can't say for sure. They undoubtedly got some marketing benefit from it, but I think controversy in general does that, whether its intended or not. Michael Jackson's music was taken off a lot of radio stations after his most recent pedophile accusations, but the actual sales of it went up. Same thing with R. Kelly. Controversey brings something to the forefront of our minds, and its not just limited to the negative accusations, but also to whatever good memories we may have associated with it.

Personally, I think that, while there may not have been much outrage about Gone With The Wind being on the service, that was before more recent events with the BLM movement, which is causing us to do a lot of reflection on stuff that we previously weren't doing much reflection on.
I didn't notice Jackson's music getting pulled from radio stations, at least not where I live in the U.S., i've only ever heard of overseas radio stations deciding not to play his music, even right after that frankly pathetic excuse for a documentary came out(yeah I think MJ is 100% innocent, just laying that out there right now, and frankly i'm disgusted at the Simpsons creators for removing the MJ episode yet not removing any the episodes that featured actual white sexual harassers in them like Ted Nugent and Julian Assange, talk about a double-standard) he hasn't been almost completely erased from the airwaves like R Kelly has.

Also i'm beyond irritated at all the episodes of TV shows featuring blackface removed(even if it's acknowledged that it's problematic like Always Sunny did) and I actually wound up panic-buying all of those banned episodes on Amazon Prime before they took them down like other streaming services did(and I bought the complete series of 30 Rock on DVD) and with Scrubs I had to purchase the whole season 5 on Google Play(usually you can buy individual episodes on Google Play, but when an episode gets pulled they typically label that episode "season only"-as in you can only access the episode by buying the entire season, but they also lock you out of buying the season to prevent you from seeing the episode period-thankfully they seemingly forgot to do that with Scrubs season 5, as though I could not purchase the individual episodes, they did let me buy the whole season and so I did manage to get my hands on the banned episodes after all, would've normally just bought the DVD but I couldn't find the season 5 DVD anywhere and the complete series set was a bit too pricey for me at the moment). Frankly I don't see the point as it's not something that makes either side happy-progressives see it as a meaningless and pointless gesture that does nothing to address the lack of minority voices in writers rooms in many shows and the right-wingers just see it as another example of "Cancel culture". I guess NBC and others see removing some episodes as easier then actually hiring some damn BIPOC writers, sad really.
eledoremassis02 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:00 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:38 pm


It's absolutely a question we should be asking minorities, and we should listen to their answers. Some of their answers can be surprising, though. Personally, as a white guy, I'm not comfortable with the existence of a baseball team named the Redskins and figured that most Native Americans would find that horribly offensive...but by many accounts, most actual Native Americans don't care. I also thought the term "African American" was more respectful than "black," but I'm hearing more and more that "black" is preferable for numerous reasons (not the least of which is that not all black people identify as being African in origin).

In other words, it's a continued dialogue we should be having, rather than going off of assumptions of what they do and don't find offensive. If most don't find something offensive, that's also something we need to keep in mind. So, as someone who hasn't watched the show, I can't say whether Asians have found it offensive that a black man plays Samurai Jack--maybe they do, maybe they don't--but I'm more than willing to listen to them about that if they want to have the conversation, because listening and having a dialogue are probably the two most immediately appropriate things that white people can do at this point in our history.
It depends on the person, much like anything else. I can't read the article because of a paywall l (never seen that on WaPo before). My mom is half-indigenous and I grew up being told to not let anyone call me an "Indian". I don't like being called it and it's geographically wrong. There are those that don't mind it at all. I don't like "Native American" either cause it usually gets followed with the snarky comment "Arent we all Native Americans?" I'm also usually a bit suspicious about Indigenous issues in the media because 98% of the time no one cares about us, we're often forgotten in most debates unless it proves some point about someone else battle. Most of my Indigenous friends absolutely hate mascots using Indigenous names, slurs and stereotypes but I have seen other Indigenous people not care or embrace it and I know groups who got to successfully change names of lakes back to their pre-colonial names, to me 9/10 seems a little off.
Yeah I heard a lot of Indians say that they didn't get what the big deal about the whole Apu controversy was and had no problem with Hank Azaria voicing him, some hated the documentary about the whole thing(I kind of thought it was a waste of time myself, since the decision to stop giving Apu speaking roles on the show had already been made way back in 2016, a whole year before the documentary had come out):https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/ ... d-shallow/
JulieYBM wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:30 am
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:46 am


Actors... faking being people they aren't? FOR MONEY? Tell me you are lying and there are not such horrible people in the world!
Yeah, it's the sort of bullshit that leads to trans people not being taken seriously. Media representation is a continual feedback loop that harms the trans people who grow up consuming it and the cisgender people whom hold the systemic advantages over trans people. Cis people see trans characters continually played by cis people--rather than actual trans people who don't have to fake the transness of their performances--and it's going to breed the idea that trans people are pretend, not a full-time thing that exist. Chris Sarandon, John Lithgow, Cillian Murphy, Eddie Redmayne, Hillary Swank: all cis actors who won Academy Awards to trans roles. The audience sees them on screen pretend to be trans, get raped and then go up on the big stage in their usual gender expression to accept big awards and praise. Meanwhile, you have trans actors and actresses passed up for these roles for being too gorgeous, too much like their gender. Fuck if we let the mainstream audiences know that trans people can be attractive, too. Wouldn't want cishet men thinking they're faggots for being attracted to women with dicks!! This is to say nothing of how media portrays us as only being sex workers (sex work is legitimate work that should be legalized, by the way), serial killers, rape-victims or the butt of jokes. Hell, what about all the young trans people who grow up on horrible shit like in Ace Venture: Pet Detective, a movie that teaches people that the only appropriate response to kissing a trans woman is to vomit? That people need to disclose their genitals or else they're deceivers? Now, let's apply that other types of minorities and see how disgusting that sounds (it's really disgusting).

The system's treatment of any kind of minority worker or representation should always be scrutinized because the system is not actually controlled by those minorities.
I'm definitely all for more trans representation in films and TV myself, though speaking for myself I grew up watching Ace Ventura as a kid and it certainly didn't give me a negative view on trans people(quite the opposite actually, it ironically led to me discovering my attraction to trans woman) I saw Ace vomiting as just him being immature and not as a personal attack on trans people, I fully acknowledge that film has some problematic stuff in it but I can still enjoy it in spite of that.

And yes Japan is pretty ass-backwards about it's treatment of trans people, that definitely explains stuff like all the deadnaming in the video game Deadly Premonition 2 and Swery not seeing the issue with it.

Also I should point out that Laura Bailey had no clue that Nadine was going to be black when she voiced her, as that was something that Naughty Dog changed later on in production, so I don't hold that against her and honestly her accent was good enough to fool me(I also thought Iggy Azalea was black when I first heard her on the radio).
Well, yeah. If you're attracted to cis women you'd obviously be attracted to trans women. We're one in the same: woman. Attraction to trans and non-binary folks is not a separate attraction.
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Planetnamek
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Re: Minority representation for minority characters in Voice acting

Post by Planetnamek » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:10 am

Ah I see. Though me realizing my own attraction to trans woman did help me to see them as human beings and not as freaks or predators like alt-right shitheads and "family values" conservatives claimed they were.
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:38 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:24 am
I'm gonna have to say a big ol' "nah" on this actor's sexuality thing. While the race topic I can agree with more or less, I don't think the actor's sexuality should have any bearing on their performance.

Neil Patrick Harris sometimes plays gay guys, but he also convincingly plays a lotta straight guys, even though he's ultra gay. I don't believe he should be pigeonholed based on his sexuality. It's acting.
Shit goes up the chain of command, not down. Neil Patrick Harris wants to play a cishet guy? Cool beans.

That being said, fuck Neil Patrick Harris for not being vocally upset about the transphobic jokes in How I Met Your Mother. He should be using his privilege to defend those more marginalized than him.
Personally i'm not going to get mad at someone for not being bothered by certain jokes, I never saw the show as being outright hateful towards trans people, but I fully acknowledge there is some stuff in it that hasn't aged well(But then again that can be said about almost any live-action scripted show made in the 2000s really). Should Neil speak up for more marginalized people? Certainly, but that does not mean he has to flagellate himself over every outdated joke in the show.

I saw Chuck and Larry as a pretty sincere attempt at being pro-gay(and it had mixed results in doing so) and I never saw Sandler's films as homophobic myself, he seems like a guy that generally means well.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku

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