Internationalized Japanese names?
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Internationalized Japanese names?
Has it been discussed or attempt a “translation” of the Japanese names as they would be without the Japanese vocal predisposition? Things like omitting the unvoiced or “whispered” vocals (Broli, Yamcha), including “L” (Buluma, Kurilin), and changing some when sound the same (Piccolo) in the romanji
Is what I ended up when trying to figure out if it was possible a general norm to “translate” them, while considering the oral origin of names, but I don't know enough (any, Heh) Japanese, so I have a big list of names that follow this method, but are probably wrong, just for the fun of it
Is what I ended up when trying to figure out if it was possible a general norm to “translate” them, while considering the oral origin of names, but I don't know enough (any, Heh) Japanese, so I have a big list of names that follow this method, but are probably wrong, just for the fun of it
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but... Do you mean like how each language Latinizes it in their own way? Cuz, I think for the most part, the names are the same so long as they aren't purposefully changed or misunderstood (which was probably only FUNi for the most part). I don't really have a good means of checking them all across the many languages, but the main characters at least seem to all be the same. Even Vegeta. At least from what I could see on the variously languaged Wikipedias.
Despite enjoying linguistics, I don't have a clue what this "vocal predisposition" that you speak of is. Perhaps that's just due to me not having taken a Linguistics class, but regardless, you'll have to explain to me what that is, as Google-ing is didn't help me any.
And the thing is, there are many different kinds of names in Dragon Ball. I think the different types call for different Latinization method (or a translation, if it's a title). As an example of what I mean, here's what I think makes sense. I don't bother with accent marks by the way.
Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Chinese pronunciation: Hanyu Pinyin style.
神龍 Shenlong
四星球 Si Xing Qiu
桃白白 Tao Baibai
餃子 Jiaozi
Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style.
孫悟空 Son Goku
孫悟飯 Son Gohan
天津飯 Tenshinhan
Japanese spelling (katakata) of a Chinese word, Chinese pronunciation: Wade–Giles style.
ウーロン Oolong
パオズ Paotzu
ヤムチャ Yumcha
プーアル Pu-ehr
Japanese spelling (katakana) of a Japanese word, Japanese pronunciation: Any way.
チチ Chichi
シュウ Shu
マイ Mai
クリリン Kuririn / Kurilin / Kulilin
ナム Nam / Namu
Japanese spelling (kanji) of a Japanese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style, if there are any that aren't titles.
亀仙人 [The] Turtle Hermit
武天老師 Muten Roshi / Master Muten / Invincible Master
牛魔王 [The] Ox Demon
男狼 Man-Wolf
ピッコロ大魔王 Demon King Piccolo
Japanese spelling (katakana), foreign pronunciation: based on the source word.
ブルマ Bloomers
ブリーフ Briefs
トランクス Trunks
ブラ Bra
タイツ Tights
ピラフ Pilaf
ランチ Lunch
バクテリアン Bacterian
ランファン Lanfan
マロン Marron
クレプ Crep
ランドセル Randosel
Despite enjoying linguistics, I don't have a clue what this "vocal predisposition" that you speak of is. Perhaps that's just due to me not having taken a Linguistics class, but regardless, you'll have to explain to me what that is, as Google-ing is didn't help me any.
And the thing is, there are many different kinds of names in Dragon Ball. I think the different types call for different Latinization method (or a translation, if it's a title). As an example of what I mean, here's what I think makes sense. I don't bother with accent marks by the way.
Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Chinese pronunciation: Hanyu Pinyin style.
神龍 Shenlong
四星球 Si Xing Qiu
桃白白 Tao Baibai
餃子 Jiaozi
Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style.
孫悟空 Son Goku
孫悟飯 Son Gohan
天津飯 Tenshinhan
Japanese spelling (katakata) of a Chinese word, Chinese pronunciation: Wade–Giles style.
ウーロン Oolong
パオズ Paotzu
ヤムチャ Yumcha
プーアル Pu-ehr
Japanese spelling (katakana) of a Japanese word, Japanese pronunciation: Any way.
チチ Chichi
シュウ Shu
マイ Mai
クリリン Kuririn / Kurilin / Kulilin
ナム Nam / Namu
Japanese spelling (kanji) of a Japanese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style, if there are any that aren't titles.
亀仙人 [The] Turtle Hermit
武天老師 Muten Roshi / Master Muten / Invincible Master
牛魔王 [The] Ox Demon
男狼 Man-Wolf
ピッコロ大魔王 Demon King Piccolo
Japanese spelling (katakana), foreign pronunciation: based on the source word.
ブルマ Bloomers
ブリーフ Briefs
トランクス Trunks
ブラ Bra
タイツ Tights
ピラフ Pilaf
ランチ Lunch
バクテリアン Bacterian
ランファン Lanfan
マロン Marron
クレプ Crep
ランドセル Randosel
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Scsigs: "Y'know, it actually makes sense that they waited till today to announce [the 30th Anniversary] set. It's Akira Toriyama's birthday."
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Re: Internationalized Japanese names?
老師 is specifically "OLD Master", no idea why everybody keep forgetting it lol.
the "Old Master" is yet-another wuxia trope, like many thing in Dragon ball
牛魔王 should be as "Gyumao" under "Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style." as it's another character from Journey to the West like Goku
the "Old Master" is yet-another wuxia trope, like many thing in Dragon ball
牛魔王 should be as "Gyumao" under "Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style." as it's another character from Journey to the West like Goku
Re: Internationalized Japanese names?
For a while now I kinda believed that Vegeta's name should be Bejita, not really because of pronunciation thing, but because Saiyan names aren't exactly direct names of vegetables, but more like puns.
Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
My bad. "Vocal predisposition" Is not a term that exist to my knowledge, I made it up trying to describe the physical phonetic predisposition of Japanese language, the phonemes that are natural to the language and replace things that don't exist in Japanese like “L” to “R” or single consonants to syllables with unvoiced or almost unvoiced vowels, same with spelling. What Japanese people are accustomed to pronounce. If that has more sense.linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:55 pm I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but... Do you mean like how each language Latinizes it in their own way? Cuz, I think for the most part, the names are the same so long as they aren't purposefully changed or misunderstood (which was probably only FUNi for the most part). I don't really have a good means of checking them all across the many languages, but the main characters at least seem to all be the same. Even Vegeta. At least from what I could see on the variously languaged Wikipedias.
Despite enjoying linguistics, I don't have a clue what this "vocal predisposition" that you speak of is. Perhaps that's just due to me not having taken a Linguistics class, but regardless, you'll have to explain to me what that is, as Google-ing is didn't help me any.
And the thing is, there are many different kinds of names in Dragon Ball. I think the different types call for different Latinization method (or a translation, if it's a title). As an example of what I mean, here's what I think makes sense. I don't bother with accent marks by the way.Spoiler:
It didn't occur to me as a consequence of linguistic analysis, just when wanting to use the original names, but encountering that the romanji by itself don't represent that good the spoken names for non Japanese speakers that don't know how to proportionate it properly.
____________________________________
Initially I just was taking notes that facilitate for me the correct pronunciation. Things like: Yam'cha(Yamucha), Kef'ra(Kefura), T'rank's'/Torank's'(Torankusu). (') being pauses/separations/unvoiced
Then changing some consonants with similar pronunciation that fit better the origin of the name without changing the pronunciation. Like: Vejīta(Bejīta), Piccolo(Pikkoro), Carif'ra(Karifura), Qitela(Kitera), Cāserar'(Kāseraru) -and from what I've read, maybe Pantī(Panchī)-
And finally, I guess taking more arbitrary liberties, included the phoneme “L” for when fits better the origin and may be what the Japanese names ““are trying to say”” or what it would be if they had “L”: Lanch'(Ranchi), Calif'la(Karifura), Kurilin(Kuririn), B'roli(Burori), Buluma(Buruma)
I'm sure there are error in the conclusion of the method and the execution, so I was wondering if something like this has been discussed or tried in a better way.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
As an addendum to my previous post, I'd like to point out that 餃子 Jiaozi is what most people spell as "Ciaotzu". The final letter -the I- is short, and sounds kinda like the I in "spit". Tho, if you're not familiar with Chinese accents, it tends to sound similar to a short U (as in "put"). At least, that is my understanding. That's why it's "Chiaotzu" in Wade–Giles style and "チャオズ" (Chaozu) in Japanese. Same with how the Japanese got "Tao Paipai" for Tao Baibai". And of course, Wade–Giles style did the same: T'ao Paipai.
Ah, true, I forgot that. However, while Sun Wukong is called "The Monkey King" in English, I don't think it actually means that. Even throwing 孫悟空 into Google Translate (I don't know anything better for Chinese) gets you "Sun Wukong" in English. Where-as 牛魔王 actually does mean "Bull/Ox" and "Demon-King / Demon" like he's called in English. Google Translate translates it as "Bull Demon". And since it's kind of important to know that he's called the Ox DEMON when he's introduced, it makes sense to translate it as such. His name is part of Oolong's evidence as to why they shouldn't go anywhere near Mount Frypan.
老師 means "old priest; sage; (Zen) teacher" according to Jisho.org. As you can see, "old" only sometimes applies. "Old Master" is only if you translate 老 and 師 as if they were separate words, but that isn't how translation works. New words are formed all the time by combining pre-existing words, and you have to treat them as new words. "Master" is a perfectly valid -and good- translation.ankokudaishogun wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:17 am 老師 is specifically "OLD Master", no idea why everybody keep forgetting it lol.
the "Old Master" is yet-another wuxia trope, like many thing in Dragon ball
牛魔王 should be as "Gyumao" under "Chinese spelling (Japanese kanji) of a Chinese word, Japanese pronunciation: Revised Hepburn style." as it's another character from Journey to the West like Goku
Ah, true, I forgot that. However, while Sun Wukong is called "The Monkey King" in English, I don't think it actually means that. Even throwing 孫悟空 into Google Translate (I don't know anything better for Chinese) gets you "Sun Wukong" in English. Where-as 牛魔王 actually does mean "Bull/Ox" and "Demon-King / Demon" like he's called in English. Google Translate translates it as "Bull Demon". And since it's kind of important to know that he's called the Ox DEMON when he's introduced, it makes sense to translate it as such. His name is part of Oolong's evidence as to why they shouldn't go anywhere near Mount Frypan.
True, but that's why it's Vegeta, not Vegetable. That alone was enough of a change for Toriyama. Like how Freezer became Freeza. And for many names, he just leaves them pronounced as-is, only changing the spelling from Japanese kanji to Japanese katakana (which is usually only for writing foreign words).
Oh, I see now. Hm... I don't think anything of the sort has been done. I think the best thing to do would be to have a style of Latinization that's based on Revised Hepburn style, and then make it so it tells more information. Like how specific Hanyu Pinyin style is for Chinese. You know, like we already have macrons to show long vowels, but how about using acute marks to show emphasis, and some-thing to show when vowels are whispered/unpronounced? Anything more, tho, -like trying to closer match the origin word- is perhaps a bit less international, which was your goal. Or at least, it's a bit confusing. Cuz...it's hard to tell if it's a straight-up sound-for-sound Latinization, or if it's a "translation" (also a Latinization technically, but it brings in sounds and spellings that aren't in Japanese). I feel like even changing an R into an L falls into the latter category; the "translation" category. Simply for the fact that, despite it being an intended L, it's pronounced by the Japanese as an R. A very different R than we use in English, but still an R all the same.pepd wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:21 pm My bad. "Vocal predisposition" Is not a term that exist to my knowledge, I made it up trying to describe the physical phonetic predisposition of Japanese language, the phonemes that are natural to the language and replace things that don't exist in Japanese like “L” to “R” or single consonants to syllables with unvoiced or almost unvoiced vowels, same with spelling. What Japanese people are accustomed to pronounce. If that has more sense.
It didn't occur to me as a consequence of linguistic analysis, just when wanting to use the original names, but encountering that the romanji by itself don't represent that good the spoken names for non Japanese speakers that don't know how to proportionate it properly.
____________________________________
Initially I just was taking notes that facilitate for me the correct pronunciation. Things like: Yam'cha(Yamucha), Kef'ra(Kefura), T'rank's'/Torank's'(Torankusu). (') being pauses/separations/unvoiced
Then changing some consonants with similar pronunciation that fit better the origin of the name without changing the pronunciation. Like: Vejīta(Bejīta), Piccolo(Pikkoro), Carif'ra(Karifura), Qitela(Kitera), Cāserar'(Kāseraru) -and from what I've read, maybe Pantī(Panchī)-
And finally, I guess taking more arbitrary liberties, included the phoneme “L” for when fits better the origin and may be what the Japanese names ““are trying to say”” or what it would be if they had “L”: Lanch'(Ranchi), Calif'la(Karifura), Kurilin(Kuririn), B'roli(Burori), Buluma(Buruma)
I'm sure there are error in the conclusion of the method and the execution, so I was wondering if something like this has been discussed or tried in a better way.
Last edited by linkdude20002001 on Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Internationalized Japanese names?
As far as I know Freeza was always his real name, and Freezer...
Well that one is the original name of a Pokemon we know as Articuno.
Well that one is the original name of a Pokemon we know as Articuno.
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Re: Internationalized Japanese names?
Well, yes; that's what I'm saying. The character フリーザ (Furīza) is Freeza, and the word (and pokemon) フリーザー (Furīzā) is Freezer.
The character ベジータ (Bejīta) is Vegeta, and the word ベジタブル (bejitaburu) is vegetable.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
I still have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about. Also, moving this out of "In-Universe" because... well, while I don't quite understand what the point is, it's certainly not "In-Universe"...!
"Sun Wukong/Wu-k'ung" is but one of several names given to the character over the course of the novel. Regarding this particular name, the “handsome monkey king” begins training with his first real master, the Taoist monk Subodhi and, to earn his favor, the monkey inquires about receiving a new name:linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:18 pm However, while Sun Wukong is called "The Monkey King" in English, I don't think it actually means that. Even throwing 孫悟空 into Google Translate (I don't know anything better for Chinese) gets you "Sun Wukong" in English.
The Patriarch laughed and said, “Though your features are not the most attractive, you do resemble a monkey (hu-sun) that feeds on pine seeds. This gives me the idea of deriving your surname from your appearance. I intended to call you by the name ‘Hu.’ Now, when the accompanying animal radical is dropped from this word, what’s left is a compound made up of the two characters, ku and yüeh. Ku means aged and yüeh means female, but an aged female cannot reproduce. Therefore, it is better to give you the surname of ‘Sun’. When the accompanying radical is dropped from this word, we have the compound of tzŭ and hsi. Tzŭ means a boy and hsi means a baby, so that the name exactly accords with the Doctrine of the Baby. So your surname will be ‘Sun’.” When the Monkey King heard this, he was filled with delight. “Splendid! Splendid!” he cried, kowtowing. “At least I know my surname. May the Master be even more gracious! Since I have receive the surname, let me be given also a personal name, so that it may facilitate your calling and commanding me.” The Patriarch said, “Within my tradition are twelve characters which have been used to name the pupils according to their divisions. You are one who belongs to the tenth generation.” “Which twelve characters are they?” asked the Monkey King. The Patriarch said, “They are: wide (kuang), great (ta), wise (chih), intelligence (hui), true (chên), conforming (ju), nature (hsing), sea (hai), sharp (ying), wake-to (wu), complete (yüan), and awakening (chüeh). Your rank falls precisely on the word ‘wake-to’ (wu). You will hence be given the religious name ‘Wake-to-Vacuity’ (wu-k’ung). All right?” “Splendid! Splendid!” said the Monkey King, laughing: “henceforth I shall be called Sun Wu-k’ung.”
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
Even I am unsure if I know what the thread is about, so...that's understandable. Haha.VegettoEX wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:10 pm I still have no idea what this thread is supposed to be about. Also, moving this out of "In-Universe" because... well, while I don't quite understand what the point it, it's certainly not "In-Universe"...!
"Sun Wukong/Wu-k'ung" is but one of several names given to the character over the course of the novel. Regarding this particular name, the “handsome monkey king” begins training with his first real master, the Taoist monk Subodhi and, to earn his favor, the monkey inquires about receiving a new name:
But yes, I was awaiting the move. It's at least definitely not about in-universe stuff.
Also, THANKS! I really need to read Journey to the West one day. But...I haven't even finished Dr Slump and Dragon Ball...
That's super cool information, tho. I love it.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
I thought "Oolong" and "Yumcha" were just anglicized forms of the original Mandarin/Cantonese words, not Wade-Giles romanizations.linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:55 pm Japanese spelling (katakata) of a Chinese word, Chinese pronunciation: Wade–Giles style.
ウーロン Oolong
パオズ Paotzu
ヤムチャ Yumcha
プーアル Pu-ehr
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
Are they? You know, it's VERY hard to find sources of Wade–Giles spellings... :/MyVisionity wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:02 pm I thought "Oolong" and "Yumcha" were just anglicized forms of the original Mandarin/Cantonese words, not Wade-Giles romanizations.
Tho, I know the Japanese wikipedia page for 飲茶 says that "Yumcha" is the Wade–Giles spelling. As for "Oolong", I don't know where I found that, but it was probably on some obscure Chinese website I barely managed to find thru Google search.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:13 pmAre they? You know, it's VERY hard to find sources of Wade–Giles spellings... :/MyVisionity wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:02 pm I thought "Oolong" and "Yumcha" were just anglicized forms of the original Mandarin/Cantonese words, not Wade-Giles romanizations.
Tho, I know the Japanese wikipedia page for 飲茶 says that "Yumcha" is the Wade–Giles spelling. As for "Oolong", I don't know where I found that, but it was probably on some obscure Chinese website I barely managed to find thru Google search.
Yeah I don't know where the Japanese wiki may have gotten that info, but the few Wade-Giles/Pinyin converters I have used all return wu and yin for both styles. And for what it's worth, Wiktionary lists both "oolong" and "yum cha" as English words.
Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
Yeah, I guess I was trying to do also a minor translation, but then we would have to re-evaluate not just the “L”. I'm using dot below now (Ạ Ḅ) to indicate unvoiced vowelslinkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:18 pm Oh, I see now. Hm... I don't think anything of the sort has been done. I think the best thing to do would be to have a style of Latinization that's based on Revised Hepburn style, and then make it so it tells more information. Like how specific Hanyu Pinyin style is for Chinese. You know, like we already have macrons to show long vowels, but how about using acute marks to show emphasis, and some-thing to show when vowels are whispered/unpronounced? Anything more, tho, -like trying to closer match the origin word- is perhaps a bit less international, which was your goal. Or at least, it's a bit confusing. Cuz...it's hard to tell if it's a straight-up sound-for-sound Latinization, or if it's a "translation" (also a Latinization technically, but it brings in sounds and spellings that aren't in Japanese). I feel like even changing an R into an L falls into the latter category; the "translation" category. Simply for the fact that, despite it being an intended L, it's pronounced by the Japanese as an R. A very different R than we use in English, but still an R all the same.
Just trying to figure out an arbitrary general method to a clearer romanization with minor translation and wondering if someone has done something similar, but right.
Sorry, when posting I just searched for a post about translation and posted in the same sub without realizing it was In-Universe until now.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
Oof. I'd like to point out that I made a typo in my first post. It's Pu-erh, not Pu-ehr. Uhg, my eyes...
So it would seem that 饮茶 is "yin ch'a" in Wade–Giles... But I just realized why the Japanese pronunciation is ヤムチャ; it's based on Cantonese rather than Mandarin. Which is "yam cha". So that complicates things. Haha. Cuz unlike Mandarin with Pinyin, Cantonese doesn't have an official style of Latinization. I guess "Yamcha" might be the best way to go about it after all!
Wulong would be Wulung. Hm... Perhaps, tho, it's okay to use the "English" spelling in that particular name group, IF the word actually exists in English. And after looking up all possible spellings of those names, "oolong" is the only word on Dictionary.com. I dunno, either one is a logical option.
Hm... I found a convenient online conversion table. VERY helpful. Thank ya!MyVisionity wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:36 pm Yeah I don't know where the Japanese wiki may have gotten that info, but the few Wade-Giles/Pinyin converters I have used all return wu and yin for both styles. And for what it's worth, Wiktionary lists both "oolong" and "yum cha" as English words.
So it would seem that 饮茶 is "yin ch'a" in Wade–Giles... But I just realized why the Japanese pronunciation is ヤムチャ; it's based on Cantonese rather than Mandarin. Which is "yam cha". So that complicates things. Haha. Cuz unlike Mandarin with Pinyin, Cantonese doesn't have an official style of Latinization. I guess "Yamcha" might be the best way to go about it after all!
Wulong would be Wulung. Hm... Perhaps, tho, it's okay to use the "English" spelling in that particular name group, IF the word actually exists in English. And after looking up all possible spellings of those names, "oolong" is the only word on Dictionary.com. I dunno, either one is a logical option.
That makes sense. So...トランクス would be "Ṭranḳṣ"?
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:45 am So it would seem that 饮茶 is "yin ch'a" in Wade–Giles... But I just realized why the Japanese pronunciation is ヤムチャ; it's based on Cantonese rather than Mandarin. Which is "yam cha". So that complicates things. Haha. Cuz unlike Mandarin with Pinyin, Cantonese doesn't have an official style of Latinization. I guess "Yamcha" might be the best way to go about it after all!
Wulong would be Wulung. Hm... Perhaps, tho, it's okay to use the "English" spelling in that particular name group, IF the word actually exists in English. And after looking up all possible spellings of those names, "oolong" is the only word on Dictionary.com. I dunno, either one is a logical option.
The most recent style of Cantonese, Jyutping, actually romanizes it as jam caa, pronounced the same as the Yale yam cha.
I suppose "Yumcha" would work just as well, since apparently "yum cha" is the popular spelling in the English speaking world. Similarly, "Oolong" is the popular English spelling of the word, so it makes sense to use it. That doesn't mean that a translator couldn't use "Wulong" or "Yamcha" if they wanted to, of course.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
I saw that. I don't think it's popularly used, tho, in China or out. I found that there's actually a Hong Kong Government style, but can't find sufficient information on it. Regardless, tho, since it's written in katakana, using the most commonly used style OUTSIDE of Hong Kong would be the consistent choice to make.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:45 am The most recent style of Cantonese, Jyutping, actually romanizes it as jam caa, pronounced the same as the Yale yam cha.
I suppose "Yumcha" would work just as well, since apparently "yum cha" is the popular spelling in the English speaking world. Similarly, "Oolong" is the popular English spelling of the word, so it makes sense to use it. That doesn't mean that a translator couldn't use "Wulong" or "Yamcha" if they wanted to, of course.
So I guess, Wulung and Yamcha would be the most logical way to go about it. I don't know if anyone even knows what "yum cha" is outside of China anyway, since I've only heard it called "dim sum". Even the dictionary seems to list "dim sum", but not "yum cha". And as for Wulung/Oolong, it would appear that the word is normally written in kanji, so writing it in katakana makes it unlike the actual word. Since "oolong" is the actual English word, it wouldn't make much sense to make that his name, I suppose. It kinda goes against Toriyama's intention.
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Scsigs: "Y'know, it actually makes sense that they waited till today to announce [the 30th Anniversary] set. It's Akira Toriyama's birthday."
Shaddy: "I too want my legacy destroyed as a birthday gift."
Viz Release Censorship Guide
Scsigs: "Y'know, it actually makes sense that they waited till today to announce [the 30th Anniversary] set. It's Akira Toriyama's birthday."
Shaddy: "I too want my legacy destroyed as a birthday gift."
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:40 pm And as for Wulung/Oolong, it would appear that the word is normally written in kanji, so writing it in katakana makes it unlike the actual word. Since "oolong" is the actual English word, it wouldn't make much sense to make that his name, I suppose. It kinda goes against Toriyama's intention.
It doesn't go against Toriyama's intentions at all. His intention is for the reader to recognize that the character's name is Oolong as in Oolong tea. Whether it's written Wulung/Wulong/Oolong doesn't matter in that regard. The usage of katakana versus kanji is common and isn't really a factor in this context.
Also, why did you group those four characters together in Wade-Giles to begin with? With the exception of Yamcha, they could all be romanized in Pinyin style.
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
Is it common? I've never seen yum cha written as ヤムチャ in regards to anything but the character. And ウーロン I've seen, but less than 烏龍. And in the case of プーアル, I've never seen it written in in katakana. I don't think it's a very common tea like oolong, but Googling it, I'm left with only 9 results for "プーアル茶", but half a million Japanese pages for "普洱茶", despite Wikipedia naming the article "プーアル茶".MyVisionity wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:39 pm It doesn't go against Toriyama's intentions at all. His intention is for the reader to recognize that the character's name is Oolong as in Oolong tea. Whether it's written Wulung/Wulong/Oolong doesn't matter in that regard. The usage of katakana versus kanji is common and isn't really a factor in this context.
Also, why did you group those four characters together in Wade-Giles to begin with? With the exception of Yamcha, they could all be romanized in Pinyin style.
And, well, rather than "Toriyama's intention", I should've said "Torishima's intention". As you know, being that the story was inspired by Journey to the West, featuring names of two characters from it even, Toriyama started naming much of the rest of the cast after Chinese foods and drinks. However, in Dragon Ball Forever, Toriyama said that the actual kanji spelling of Yamcha was turned down by Torishima.
Since katakana's main purpose with these Chinese words is to help people know that, say...烏龍 is pronounced with a ron at the end, since 龍 normally can't do that, it makes sense to think that Oolong does the same for wūlóng. My only problem with that is...it feels weird making up a new spelling that just feels so un-Chinese. But I guess changing pǔ'ěr to Poo-ehr would be...acceptable? I dunno. But luckily, that's what we have forums and discussions for.
I felt like the Chinese names written in katakana might be best suited to being Latinized using Wade–Giles style. Yamcha, tho, being Cantonese, is actually the one I would now remove from that group, not the other three. Just cuz Cantonese doesn't use that style. So that's why I had them like that.
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Scsigs: "Y'know, it actually makes sense that they waited till today to announce [the 30th Anniversary] set. It's Akira Toriyama's birthday."
Shaddy: "I too want my legacy destroyed as a birthday gift."
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Scsigs: "Y'know, it actually makes sense that they waited till today to announce [the 30th Anniversary] set. It's Akira Toriyama's birthday."
Shaddy: "I too want my legacy destroyed as a birthday gift."
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Re: Internationalized romanticized Japanese names?
No I meant it's common in manga and anime for character names to be written in Katakana instead of their original Hiragana or Kanji. So that basically it doesn't mean much that it's written differently, in terms of the intent.linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:18 am Is it common? I've never seen yum cha written as ヤムチャ in regards to anything but the character. And ウーロン I've seen, but less than 烏龍. And in the case of プーアル, I've never seen it written in in katakana. I don't think it's a very common tea like oolong, but Googling it, I'm left with only 9 results for "プーアル茶", but half a million Japanese pages for "普洱茶", despite Wikipedia naming the article "プーアル茶".
Again, the usage of Katakana for names is common, and it's not about foreign pronunciation in this context.linkdude20002001 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:18 am Since katakana's main purpose with these Chinese words is to help people know that, say...烏龍 is pronounced with a ron at the end, since 龍 normally can't do that, it makes sense to think that Oolong does the same for wūlóng. My only problem with that is...it feels weird making up a new spelling that just feels so un-Chinese. But I guess changing pǔ'ěr to Poo-ehr would be...acceptable? I dunno. But luckily, that's what we have forums and discussions for.
I understand not liking Anglicized spellings like Oolong or Yum cha, but I can understand why a translator would use such names given how widely known and recognizable they are.